Discussion:
Bach St. Matthew Passion/Herreweghe
(too old to reply)
AMH
2005-06-15 14:51:31 UTC
Permalink
I have the Klemperer recording of the St. Matthew Passion on EMI, but I
would like to buy a "HIP" recording as a contrast. The first recording
by Herreweghe is available from Berkshire Record Outlet for only $17
(incl. shipping), but I am wondering if it is worth the money to save
for the more recent Herreweghe recording which has gotten such good
reviews. It's $50 on Amazon. Or possibly there is another recording I
should consider? I appreciate any comments.

Andy
p***@hotmail.com
2005-06-15 15:06:08 UTC
Permalink
Stick with Klemperer or try Mengelberg.

Peter Schenkman
Simon Roberts
2005-06-15 15:14:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by AMH
I have the Klemperer recording of the St. Matthew Passion on EMI, but I
would like to buy a "HIP" recording as a contrast. The first recording
by Herreweghe is available from Berkshire Record Outlet for only $17
(incl. shipping), but I am wondering if it is worth the money to save
for the more recent Herreweghe recording which has gotten such good
reviews. It's $50 on Amazon.
Overall I prefer the soloists on the earlier one would probably choose it if I
had to. (If you check the google archives you will find more detailed comments
on both.)
Post by AMH
Or possibly there is another recording I
should consider? I appreciate any comments.
Again, check the google archives for previous threads on this subject. In
addition to Herreweghe's, you should consider the most recent of Harnoncourt's
recordings (with Roeschmann and co.). Koopman's, also chez Berkshire for the
same price as Herreweghe I, is also good (you could get both for less than the
price of Herreweghe II). Berkshire sometimes has Leonhardt's, which I would
recommend if you wanted an all-male performance (complete with boy soprano
solos). Berkshire also has, as part of bigger boxes, Gardiner and Harnoncourt's
first recording. The former often gets high praise, but the whole thing seems
rather bland to me (the occasional bit of exciting choral singing
notwithstanding). I like the latter quite a lot, but it's all male, the
orchestral playing is less suave than more recent HIP efforts and I'm not sure
it would be a safe place to start (excellent soloists, though).

If you want one-per-part, McCreesh is your only choice; I would probably like it
more if I didn't find the recording a pale imitation of their concert I
attended.

A couple to avoid, even though they often show up dirt cheap: Goodwin's has
potentially useful fast tempi but an unimpressive array of soloists and the
whole thing is sabotaged by distant microphone placement and weird layout (the
two choirs are split back and front, not left and right), while the King's
Cambridge remake (Cleobury cond?), which is also available on DVD, finds almost
all of its big-name soloists in terrible form (did they all have flu or
something?).

Simon
AMH
2005-06-15 23:47:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Simon Roberts
Post by AMH
I have the Klemperer recording of the St. Matthew Passion on EMI, but I
would like to buy a "HIP" recording as a contrast. The first recording
by Herreweghe is available from Berkshire Record Outlet for only $17
(incl. shipping), but I am wondering if it is worth the money to save
for the more recent Herreweghe recording which has gotten such good
reviews. It's $50 on Amazon.
Overall I prefer the soloists on the earlier one would probably choose it if I
had to. (If you check the google archives you will find more detailed comments
on both.)
Post by AMH
Or possibly there is another recording I
should consider? I appreciate any comments.
Again, check the google archives for previous threads on this subject. In
addition to Herreweghe's, you should consider the most recent of Harnoncourt's
recordings (with Roeschmann and co.). Koopman's, also chez Berkshire for the
same price as Herreweghe I, is also good (you could get both for less than the
price of Herreweghe II). Berkshire sometimes has Leonhardt's, which I would
recommend if you wanted an all-male performance (complete with boy soprano
solos). Berkshire also has, as part of bigger boxes, Gardiner and Harnoncourt's
first recording. The former often gets high praise, but the whole thing seems
rather bland to me (the occasional bit of exciting choral singing
notwithstanding). I like the latter quite a lot, but it's all male, the
orchestral playing is less suave than more recent HIP efforts and I'm not sure
it would be a safe place to start (excellent soloists, though).
If you want one-per-part, McCreesh is your only choice; I would probably like it
more if I didn't find the recording a pale imitation of their concert I
attended.
A couple to avoid, even though they often show up dirt cheap: Goodwin's has
potentially useful fast tempi but an unimpressive array of soloists and the
whole thing is sabotaged by distant microphone placement and weird layout (the
two choirs are split back and front, not left and right), while the King's
Cambridge remake (Cleobury cond?), which is also available on DVD, finds almost
all of its big-name soloists in terrible form (did they all have flu or
something?).
Simon
I checked the archives, and the first Herreweghe seems to get mostly
positive comments. If I decide to spend $50, I may go for the Gardiner
box, since I don't have a recording of the St. John Passion. I don't
think I'm interested in all-male or one-per-part right now. The most
recent Harnoncourt is available at my library, so I think I will try
that before I make a decision. Thanks for your comments.
Paul Ilechko
2005-06-16 02:00:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by AMH
I checked the archives, and the first Herreweghe seems to get mostly
positive comments. If I decide to spend $50, I may go for the Gardiner
box, since I don't have a recording of the St. John Passion.
you mean this box:

Bach, Christmas Oratorio; St. Matthew Passion; St. John Passion; Mass
in b. (Vocal soloists include Anthony Rolfe Johnson, Anne Sofie Von
Otter, Barbara Bonney & Olaf Bar. The Monteverdi Choir & English Baroque
Soloists/ Gardiner)
Add to cart | Price: $ 44.91 | 9 in set. | Country: GERMANY | D/A code:
D | Code: 469769-2 | BRO Code: 121371 | Label: DG ARCHIV

- great deal at BRO.
Ivailo Partchev
2005-06-16 12:03:28 UTC
Permalink
Highly recommended esp. for the passions and the Christmas oratorio. For
the Mass, my top choice is Hengelbrock.
Post by Paul Ilechko
Post by AMH
I checked the archives, and the first Herreweghe seems to get mostly
positive comments. If I decide to spend $50, I may go for the Gardiner
box, since I don't have a recording of the St. John Passion.
Bach, Christmas Oratorio; St. Matthew Passion; St. John Passion; Mass
in b. (Vocal soloists include Anthony Rolfe Johnson, Anne Sofie Von
Otter, Barbara Bonney & Olaf Bar. The Monteverdi Choir & English Baroque
Soloists/ Gardiner)
D | Code: 469769-2 | BRO Code: 121371 | Label: DG ARCHIV
- great deal at BRO.
hardass at sciences
2005-06-18 09:30:01 UTC
Permalink
which of the hairywigs is the one with the cdrom? i have to say, it's
one of the most stupidly designed cdroms i ever came across.
R***@gmail.com
2005-06-15 19:21:11 UTC
Permalink
Herreweghe's first recording of the SMP is the better of his two. He
made it quite early in his recording career and it is more intense and
IMO better paced than his relatively well upholstered second version.

Other HIP versions I enjoy listening to are Harnoncourt I and III.
Jan Hoving
2005-06-15 19:44:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by R***@gmail.com
Herreweghe's first recording of the SMP is the better of his two. He
made it quite early in his recording career and it is more intense and
IMO better paced than his relatively well upholstered second version.
Other HIP versions I enjoy listening to are Harnoncourt I and III.
Please don't forget the magnificent McCreesh recording. You'll enjoy it.
j***@aol.com
2005-06-15 19:43:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by AMH
I have the Klemperer recording of the St. Matthew Passion on EMI, but I
would like to buy a "HIP" recording as a contrast. The first recording
by Herreweghe is available from Berkshire Record Outlet for only $17
(incl. shipping), but I am wondering if it is worth the money to save
for the more recent Herreweghe recording which has gotten such good
reviews. It's $50 on Amazon. Or possibly there is another recording I
should consider? I appreciate any comments.
Andy
Others will recommend the HIP recording you're looking for (I wonder if
anyone still likes the cheap Hermann Max recording on Capriccio), I
just want to point out that you can also, eventually, find some strong
contrasts to Klemperer in the non-HIP category. In particular,
Mengelberg is quite inexpensive and spiritual, on Naxos; also standouts
are Scherchen on Westminster, or Lehmann on Music and Arts. There are
others of course, and it is possible to find varying degrees of HIP
sensitivity with modern instruments or voices, all the way up to
Rilling and Solti--but even amongst the old-fashioned, Klemperer is not
the non-HIP ideal, by any stretch.

--Jeff
rkhalona
2005-06-15 20:27:54 UTC
Permalink
Jeff wrote:

<<Others will recommend the HIP recording you're looking for (I wonder
if
anyone still likes the cheap Hermann Max recording on Capriccio), I
just want to point out that you can also, eventually, find some strong
contrasts to Klemperer in the non-HIP category. In particular,
Mengelberg is quite inexpensive and spiritual, on Naxos; also standouts

are Scherchen on Westminster, or Lehmann on Music and Arts. There are
others of course, and it is possible to find varying degrees of HIP
sensitivity with modern instruments or voices, all the way up to
Rilling and Solti--but even amongst the old-fashioned, Klemperer is not

the non-HIP ideal, by any stretch. >>

I do have the Max recording and like it, in an odd sort of way, but
given the
original poster's provenance (he comes from owning Klemperer's -- a
recording
I very much love), I think he might enjoy Karl Richter's first
recording as a
good compromise between HIP and big band.

RK
fl.traverso
2005-06-15 23:54:33 UTC
Permalink
A good compromise between Romantic and HIP schools
for me is the Maurersberger brothers' recording on Berlin
Classics. It boasts young Peter Schreier as the Evangelist
and the recorded sound is a knockout. All-male choirs
(of Dresden and Leipzig!) and I wish they used boy soloists,
too, seeing how good those in Maurersberger Schuetz
recordings were, but alas they opted for mediocre female
voices here.

Fang-Lin
rkhalona
2005-06-16 00:30:22 UTC
Permalink
<<A good compromise between Romantic and HIP schools
for me is the Maurersberger brothers' recording on Berlin
Classics. It boasts young Peter Schreier as the Evangelist
and the recorded sound is a knockout. All-male choirs
(of Dresden and Leipzig!) and I wish they used boy soloists,
too, seeing how good those in Maurersberger Schuetz
recordings were, but alas they opted for mediocre female
voices here.

Fang-Lin >>

Yes! I didn't know that had been reissued on CD. I have the LP box
and I agree it's a wonderful recording in excellent sound.
Thanks for the heads up.

RK
Johannes Roehl
2005-06-16 08:10:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by rkhalona
<<A good compromise between Romantic and HIP schools
for me is the Maurersberger brothers' recording on Berlin
Classics. It boasts young Peter Schreier as the Evangelist
and the recorded sound is a knockout. All-male choirs
(of Dresden and Leipzig!) and I wish they used boy soloists,
too, seeing how good those in Maurersberger Schuetz
recordings were, but alas they opted for mediocre female
voices here.
Yes! I didn't know that had been reissued on CD. I have the LP box
and I agree it's a wonderful recording in excellent sound.
Thanks for the heads up.
It's (at least here) available dirt cheap in a Box (without libretti)
that also includes two more classical Leipzig Bach recordings: Thomas'
X-mas oratorio and Ramin's 1955 St. John's Passion as well as the
comparably recent b minor Mass with R. Jacobs conducting Berlin forces.
The whole box sells for slightly more than one full-priced disc (20-25
EUR), so there's actually no reason not to get it.

Johannes
--
Philosophers, like shampoo manufacturers, would always like to call
their products 'natural'.
(P. Godfrey-Smith)
rkhalona
2005-06-16 18:00:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by rkhalona
<<A good compromise between Romantic and HIP schools
for me is the Maurersberger brothers' recording on Berlin
Classics. It boasts young Peter Schreier as the Evangelist
and the recorded sound is a knockout. All-male choirs
(of Dresden and Leipzig!) and I wish they used boy soloists,
too, seeing how good those in Maurersberger Schuetz
recordings were, but alas they opted for mediocre female
voices here.
Yes! I didn't know that had been reissued on CD. I have the LP box
and I agree it's a wonderful recording in excellent sound.
Thanks for the heads up.
It's (at least here) available dirt cheap in a Box (without libretti)
that also includes two more classical Leipzig Bach recordings: Thomas'
X-mas oratorio and Ramin's 1955 St. John's Passion as well as the
comparably recent b minor Mass with R. Jacobs conducting Berlin forces.

The whole box sells for slightly more than one full-priced disc (20-25
EUR), so there's actually no reason not to get it.

Johannes >>


Thanks Johannes. For those interested, he's referring to

http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/hnum/6348115/rk/classic/rsk/hitlist

RK
fl.traverso
2005-06-17 01:03:26 UTC
Permalink
My copy appears to be an earlier "deluxe" issue which
comes with full text and a plethora of production photos,
relgious images etc. May still be available from some
sources such as crotchet in UK:

http://www.crotchet.co.uk/0183902BC

Fang-Lin
rkhalona
2005-06-17 18:00:43 UTC
Permalink
<<My copy appears to be an earlier "deluxe" issue which
comes with full text and a plethora of production photos,
relgious images etc. May still be available from some
sources such as crotchet in UK:


http://www.crotchet.co.uk/0183­902BC


Fang-Lin>>

Yes, I saw that at JPC as well and I am thinking about foregoing the
deluxe packaging (since I already have the LP set with probably all the
photos you mention)
in favor of the other recordings (esp. Ramin's St. John Passion).
Decisions, decisions.... :-)

RK
AMH
2005-06-15 23:57:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by rkhalona
<<Others will recommend the HIP recording you're looking for (I wonder
if
anyone still likes the cheap Hermann Max recording on Capriccio), I
just want to point out that you can also, eventually, find some strong
contrasts to Klemperer in the non-HIP category. In particular,
Mengelberg is quite inexpensive and spiritual, on Naxos; also standouts
are Scherchen on Westminster, or Lehmann on Music and Arts. There are
others of course, and it is possible to find varying degrees of HIP
sensitivity with modern instruments or voices, all the way up to
Rilling and Solti--but even amongst the old-fashioned, Klemperer is not
the non-HIP ideal, by any stretch. >>
I do have the Max recording and like it, in an odd sort of way, but
given the
original poster's provenance (he comes from owning Klemperer's -- a
recording
I very much love), I think he might enjoy Karl Richter's first
recording as a
good compromise between HIP and big band.
RK
I guess I'm not really committed to HIP - it just seemed the obvious
contrast to Klemperer, and the Herreweghe was available at such good a
price. As I mentioned in response to another comment, I will try and
get Harnoncourt from my library before I decide. If I don't like it or
if they are available for a comparable price, I'll consider Richter and
Rilling (I don't think I want a historical CD like Mengelberg).

I'm listening to Klemperer now, and I do like it.
Ulvi Yurtsever
2005-06-15 21:46:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by j***@aol.com
Others will recommend the HIP recording you're looking for (I wonder if
anyone still likes the cheap Hermann Max recording on Capriccio), I
just want to point out that you can also, eventually, find some strong
contrasts to Klemperer in the non-HIP category. In particular,
Mengelberg is quite inexpensive and spiritual, on Naxos; also standouts
are Scherchen on Westminster, or Lehmann on Music and Arts.
I still like the Max recording, prefer Herreweghe II to I, keep
Klemperer only for his way with the chorales, and, for listening
pleasure, would choose Bernstein's mutilated recording over the
other non-HIP mentioned.

Ulvi
Theresa
2005-06-15 21:51:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ulvi Yurtsever
I still like the Max recording, prefer Herreweghe II to I, keep
Klemperer only for his way with the chorales,
I once heard Klemperer's St. Matthew's Passion on the radio and
the chorales were what I liked best too.
j***@aol.com
2005-06-15 22:27:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ulvi Yurtsever
Post by j***@aol.com
Others will recommend the HIP recording you're looking for (I wonder if
anyone still likes the cheap Hermann Max recording on Capriccio), I
just want to point out that you can also, eventually, find some strong
contrasts to Klemperer in the non-HIP category. In particular,
Mengelberg is quite inexpensive and spiritual, on Naxos; also standouts
are Scherchen on Westminster, or Lehmann on Music and Arts.
I still like the Max recording, prefer Herreweghe II to I, keep
Klemperer only for his way with the chorales, and, for listening
pleasure, would choose Bernstein's mutilated recording over the
other non-HIP mentioned.
Ulvi
I'm very tempted by the Bernstein, if primarily to hear the oboe
playing, but also because Bernstein's Magnificat was so good.

I mention Max because the original poster was looking for a complement
to the Klemperer, and Max is about as far from Klemperer as anyone can
get, tempo and style-wise, in my limited experience.

--Jeff
Simon Roberts
2005-06-16 19:24:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by j***@aol.com
Others will recommend the HIP recording you're looking for (I wonder if
anyone still likes the cheap Hermann Max recording on Capriccio)
I do, but I'm not sure it's cheap any more.

Simon
Lani Spahr
2005-06-17 00:14:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Simon Roberts
Post by j***@aol.com
Others will recommend the HIP recording you're looking for (I wonder if
anyone still likes the cheap Hermann Max recording on Capriccio)
I do, but I'm not sure it's cheap any more.
I like it a lot! I think the Max recording is a great recording.

Lani
Paul Ilechko
2005-06-15 22:49:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by AMH
I have the Klemperer recording of the St. Matthew Passion on EMI, but I
would like to buy a "HIP" recording as a contrast. The first recording
by Herreweghe is available from Berkshire Record Outlet for only $17
(incl. shipping), but I am wondering if it is worth the money to save
for the more recent Herreweghe recording which has gotten such good
reviews. It's $50 on Amazon. Or possibly there is another recording I
should consider? I appreciate any comments.
Herreweghe 2 is definitely dull as ditchwater - I dumped it. (How's that
for alliteration?). If you're not pedantic about HIP, I would suggest
Rilling. Brisk, HIP-influenced but on modern instruments, great singing.
And I got mine for $1.99 on eBay.
Simon Roberts
2005-06-16 19:28:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul Ilechko
Post by AMH
I have the Klemperer recording of the St. Matthew Passion on EMI, but I
would like to buy a "HIP" recording as a contrast. The first recording
by Herreweghe is available from Berkshire Record Outlet for only $17
(incl. shipping), but I am wondering if it is worth the money to save
for the more recent Herreweghe recording which has gotten such good
reviews. It's $50 on Amazon. Or possibly there is another recording I
should consider? I appreciate any comments.
Herreweghe 2 is definitely dull as ditchwater - I dumped it. (How's that
for alliteration?). If you're not pedantic about HIP, I would suggest
Rilling. Brisk, HIP-influenced but on modern instruments, great singing.
And I got mine for $1.99 on eBay.
But make sure you get the right Rilling (shorter alliteration, but still...);
it's his Haenssler remake that's HIP-influenced (and, I think, better
generally), not the rather dull, less well recorded, earlier CBS recording.

Simon
Paul Ilechko
2005-06-16 20:43:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Simon Roberts
Post by Paul Ilechko
Post by AMH
I have the Klemperer recording of the St. Matthew Passion on EMI, but I
would like to buy a "HIP" recording as a contrast. The first recording
by Herreweghe is available from Berkshire Record Outlet for only $17
(incl. shipping), but I am wondering if it is worth the money to save
for the more recent Herreweghe recording which has gotten such good
reviews. It's $50 on Amazon. Or possibly there is another recording I
should consider? I appreciate any comments.
Herreweghe 2 is definitely dull as ditchwater - I dumped it. (How's that
for alliteration?). If you're not pedantic about HIP, I would suggest
Rilling. Brisk, HIP-influenced but on modern instruments, great singing.
And I got mine for $1.99 on eBay.
But make sure you get the right Rilling (shorter alliteration, but still...);
it's his Haenssler remake that's HIP-influenced (and, I think, better
generally), not the rather dull, less well recorded, earlier CBS recording.
Yes, that's the one I was talking about. I'd forgotten about the earlier
version.
Andy Evans
2005-06-16 22:23:27 UTC
Permalink
I'm moving fast towards the 'hate Herreweghe' camp - too bland. I still
like Harnoncourt a lot - more rhythm. I still get a lot out of the
earlier discs in the SMP and Xmas Oratorio - Munchinger and in
particular Lehmann. I'd love to get the Lehmann Xmas Oratorio in its
entirity - I just have a LP of excerpts. Does this exist?
b***@yahoo.co.uk
2005-06-18 08:12:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andy Evans
particular Lehmann. I'd love to get the Lehmann Xmas Oratorio in its
entirity - I just have a LP of excerpts. Does this exist?
Yes. DGG Centenary Collection 459 017-2 on CD which I have. LP issue
number given as APM 14051/54. Can't seem to find it on amazons though
-- the edition was erratically distributed I think, or maybe officially
only in boxed sets. Managed to pick up the individual discs I wanted at
Tower Piccadilly in the good old days...

Victor
t***@hotmail.com
2005-06-18 19:24:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by AMH
I have the Klemperer recording of the St. Matthew Passion on EMI, but I
would like to buy a "HIP" recording as a contrast. The first recording
by Herreweghe is available from Berkshire Record Outlet for only $17
(incl. shipping), but I am wondering if it is worth the money to save
for the more recent Herreweghe recording which has gotten such good
reviews. It's $50 on Amazon. Or possibly there is another recording I
should consider? I appreciate any comments.
Andy
Karl Richter's 1958 superb performance will be a big enough contrast to
the Klemperer, which is much much slower than Richter. Afraid the
1980's Herreweghe was so feeble compared with Richter that I put it for
sale into a charity shop.

Tom Older
Theresa
2005-06-18 19:30:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by t***@hotmail.com
Afraid the
1980's Herreweghe was so feeble compared with Richter that I put it for
sale into a charity shop.
That's true charity!
Richard Loeb
2005-06-18 19:38:05 UTC
Permalink
Wouldn't the Salvation Army have been appropriate?? Richard
Post by Theresa
Post by t***@hotmail.com
Afraid the
1980's Herreweghe was so feeble compared with Richter that I put it for
sale into a charity shop.
That's true charity!
Simon Roberts
2005-06-18 21:54:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Theresa
Post by t***@hotmail.com
Afraid the
1980's Herreweghe was so feeble compared with Richter that I put it for
sale into a charity shop.
That's true charity!
So is keeping Karl Richter's....

Simon

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