Discussion:
Beethoven Piano Sonata Cycles (Question)
(too old to reply)
JohnGavin
2006-04-23 13:35:03 UTC
Permalink
Just wondering if the following pianists are persuing complete cycles
of the Beethoven Piano Sonatas:

1) Garrick Ohlson
2) Maurizio Pollini
3) Ian Hobson
4) Andras Schiff

I believe all of the above have started what was promoted as complete
cycles, but I'd be interested to know if those projects are still
alive, and how far along they are.
William Sommerwerck
2006-04-23 13:51:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by JohnGavin
Just wondering if the following pianists are persuing
Garrick Ohlson
Maurizio Pollini
Ian Hobson
Andras Schiff
Could we add Murray the P to that list?
EM
2006-04-23 14:50:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by JohnGavin
4) Andras Schiff
There is a recent review here (in German):

http://www.klassik-heute.de/besprechungen/17712.shtml

which suggests this series isn't dead (yet). They are concert
recordings though.

EM

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Richard Sauer
2006-04-23 13:50:08 UTC
Permalink
ECM just issued volume 2 of Schiff's Beethoven cycle- sonatas 5 through 8.
From the information on ECM's website I'd say that this cycle is still a go.

Rich
tomdeacon
2006-04-23 14:32:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by JohnGavin
Just wondering if the following pianists are persuing complete cycles
1) Garrick Ohlson
2) Maurizio Pollini
3) Ian Hobson
4) Andras Schiff
I believe all of the above have started what was promoted as complete
cycles, but I'd be interested to know if those projects are still
alive, and how far along they are.
Hobson completed his cycle. I own it.

Ohlsson has not, so far at least, completed his cycle. Is Arabesque
still active?

Pollini has recorded three complete cycles and DG has them on tape, but
he is disatisfied with his performances. Bits and pieces have, however,
appeared on CD of studio performances for the most part.

Schiff has a cycle in progress.

TD
JohnGavin
2006-04-23 14:38:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by tomdeacon
Post by JohnGavin
Just wondering if the following pianists are persuing complete cycles
1) Garrick Ohlson
2) Maurizio Pollini
3) Ian Hobson
4) Andras Schiff
I believe all of the above have started what was promoted as complete
cycles, but I'd be interested to know if those projects are still
alive, and how far along they are.
Hobson completed his cycle. I own it.
Ohlsson has not, so far at least, completed his cycle. Is Arabesque
still active?
Pollini has recorded three complete cycles and DG has them on tape, but
he is disatisfied with his performances. Bits and pieces have, however,
appeared on CD of studio performances for the most part.
Schiff has a cycle in progress.
TD
Thanks Tom for that very complete answer!
JohnGavin
2006-04-23 15:18:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by tomdeacon
Post by JohnGavin
Just wondering if the following pianists are persuing complete cycles
1) Garrick Ohlson
2) Maurizio Pollini
3) Ian Hobson
4) Andras Schiff
I believe all of the above have started what was promoted as complete
cycles, but I'd be interested to know if those projects are still
alive, and how far along they are.
Hobson completed his cycle. I own it.
What are your overall impressions of this set?
tomdeacon
2006-04-23 15:37:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by JohnGavin
Post by tomdeacon
Hobson completed his cycle. I own it.
What are your overall impressions of this set?
I think this is the result of a great deal of work, preparation,
dedication, and so on, as any cycle of this music has to be, but that
Hobson does not really score any major hits. His cycle reminds me of
John Lill's, which is equally estimable, but in the end, neither really
burns its existence into your brain somehow. How did they play this or
that sonata? Well, I have to listen again.

The truly great Beethoven pianists are all well known and duly admired,
John. Their names? Well, Schnabel, Kempff, Arrau, Gulda, Backhaus,
Brendel would be my list. Interesting that all of them are German or
German-trained (Arrau). I would also be inclined to add Joyce Hatto to
the list, but I have to hear the whole cycle again to be sure. And
some, who probably haven't heard a note by Joyce Hatto, would scream in
objection!!!

To the list of six pianists above you can clearly add Gilels and
Richter, but neither recorded the whole cycle, so they don't really
qualify with the others, do they? You're speaking of complete cycles of
Beethoven. You may be able to add some of the up-and-comers to the
list, but the jury is still out on them until they have completed their
work. I have high hopes for Pizarro and Lewis. But who can tell till
they are finished?

Actually, since Andrew Grimshaw is acquiring dozens of complete
Beethoven cycles as we speak, perhaps you should address your question
to him.

TD
JohnGavin
2006-04-24 14:02:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by tomdeacon
Post by JohnGavin
Post by tomdeacon
Hobson completed his cycle. I own it.
What are your overall impressions of this set?
I think this is the result of a great deal of work, preparation,
dedication, and so on, as any cycle of this music has to be, but that
Hobson does not really score any major hits. His cycle reminds me of
John Lill's, which is equally estimable, but in the end, neither really
burns its existence into your brain somehow. How did they play this or
that sonata? Well, I have to listen again.
The truly great Beethoven pianists are all well known and duly admired,
John. Their names? Well, Schnabel, Kempff, Arrau, Gulda, Backhaus,
Brendel would be my list. Interesting that all of them are German or
German-trained (Arrau). I would also be inclined to add Joyce Hatto to
the list, but I have to hear the whole cycle again to be sure. And
some, who probably haven't heard a note by Joyce Hatto, would scream in
objection!!!
To the list of six pianists above you can clearly add Gilels and
Richter, but neither recorded the whole cycle, so they don't really
qualify with the others, do they? You're speaking of complete cycles of
Beethoven. You may be able to add some of the up-and-comers to the
list, but the jury is still out on them until they have completed their
work. I have high hopes for Pizarro and Lewis. But who can tell till
they are finished?
Actually, since Andrew Grimshaw is acquiring dozens of complete
Beethoven cycles as we speak, perhaps you should address your question
to him.
TD
Tom, or anyone - can you estimate how many complete Sonata cycles have
been recorded from the first (probably Schnabel) to the present?
tomdeacon
2006-04-24 14:54:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by JohnGavin
Tom, or anyone - can you estimate how many complete Sonata cycles have
been recorded from the first (probably Schnabel) to the present?
Well, I shall try to think of the ones I own, for example, and not in
any particular order.

Schnabel
Kempff (three times, all for DG)
Backhaus (twice, minus a stereo Hammerklavier, both for Decca)
Arrau (once complete, for Philips, a partial for EMI and an almost
complete digital for Philips)
Gulda (twice, once for Decca, and another for Amadeo)
Barenboim (twice, once for EMI, a second for DG in digital)
Robert Riefling (on LP, unsure of a CD issue)
Dieter Zechlin (on LP from East Germany, unsure of a complete CD issue)
Michael Houston (on Morriston Trust, from New Zealand)
Robert Taub (on Vox)
Alfred Brendel (three times, matching Kempff: first for Vox and then
twice for Philips)
Stephen Kovacevich (a very partial one for Philips, then a complete one
for EMI, with one remake)
Vladimir Ashkenazy(for Decca)
Eric Heidsieck (for French EMI)
Yves Nat (originally for Discophiles Francais, I think, issued by EMI
on LP and CD)
Rudolf Buchbinder (for Teldec)
Ian Hobson (for Zephyr)
Joyce Hatto (for Concert Recordings)
Claude Frank (for RCA Victor, released on CD by M&A)
Anton Kuerti (for Acquitaine Records, also released on CBS on LP)
John Lill (for ASV, released on CD by Brilliant Box)

These may not be all of the ones I own. Just off the top of my head.

There are others I know of, but don't own. Joerg Demus, for example and
his buddy Paul Badura-Skoda, and then there were the almost complete
cycles by Gieseking, Gilels and Richter.

Perhaps others will add to my list. Andrew Grimshaw? Where are you?

Unfortunately I can't put my hands on my copy of "The Recordings of
Beethoven: as viewed from the critics of High Fidelity". I have just
stuffed it somewhere and don't know where. Harris Goldsmith's
contributed the review of all the piano recordings. He listened to
oceans of Beethoven for that project, making astute descriptive
comments on each and every one of them. Greenwood Press reprinted this
volume, which first came out in 1972 by Wyeth Press just after the big
Beethoven birthday bash in 1970. What I wouldn't give to have HG
refresh that project with comments on all the recordings which have
appeared since then! But that was a bygone era, when Americans were
still interested in reading about as well as buying classical music
recordings.

Where are the snows of yesteryear?

Sorry. Just a fit of poignant nostalgia. It will pass.

TD
JohnGavin
2006-04-24 15:11:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by tomdeacon
Post by JohnGavin
Tom, or anyone - can you estimate how many complete Sonata cycles have
been recorded from the first (probably Schnabel) to the present?
Well, I shall try to think of the ones I own, for example, and not in
any particular order.
Schnabel
Kempff (three times, all for DG)
Backhaus (twice, minus a stereo Hammerklavier, both for Decca)
Arrau (once complete, for Philips, a partial for EMI and an almost
complete digital for Philips)
Gulda (twice, once for Decca, and another for Amadeo)
Barenboim (twice, once for EMI, a second for DG in digital)
Robert Riefling (on LP, unsure of a CD issue)
Dieter Zechlin (on LP from East Germany, unsure of a complete CD issue)
Michael Houston (on Morriston Trust, from New Zealand)
Robert Taub (on Vox)
Alfred Brendel (three times, matching Kempff: first for Vox and then
twice for Philips)
Stephen Kovacevich (a very partial one for Philips, then a complete one
for EMI, with one remake)
Vladimir Ashkenazy(for Decca)
Eric Heidsieck (for French EMI)
Yves Nat (originally for Discophiles Francais, I think, issued by EMI
on LP and CD)
Rudolf Buchbinder (for Teldec)
Ian Hobson (for Zephyr)
Joyce Hatto (for Concert Recordings)
Claude Frank (for RCA Victor, released on CD by M&A)
Anton Kuerti (for Acquitaine Records, also released on CBS on LP)
John Lill (for ASV, released on CD by Brilliant Box)
These may not be all of the ones I own. Just off the top of my head.
There are others I know of, but don't own. Joerg Demus, for example and
his buddy Paul Badura-Skoda, and then there were the almost complete
cycles by Gieseking, Gilels and Richter.
The ones that I can add are: Annie Fischer, John O'Connor, Russell
Sherman. That would make the total so far at 24 or 25 complete sets.
JohnGavin
2006-04-24 15:21:54 UTC
Permalink
Also, Louis Lortie seems to be well on his way to a complete cycle.
tomdeacon
2006-04-24 16:21:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by JohnGavin
Also, Louis Lortie seems to be well on his way to a complete cycle.
Perhaps, John. But we were only talking about completed cycles. There
are lots of almost completes.

Just remembered Andrea Luchesini and Dino Ciani, which I also own.

TD
Kenneth Kwan
2006-04-25 20:27:06 UTC
Permalink
any impression left from the Luchesini set ? I was thinking to get
it.....

the Ciani set, bad sound.
Post by tomdeacon
Just remembered Andrea Luchesini and Dino Ciani, which I also own.
Paul Goldstein
2006-04-24 15:21:01 UTC
Permalink
In article <***@j33g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>, JohnGavin
says...
Post by JohnGavin
Post by tomdeacon
Post by JohnGavin
Tom, or anyone - can you estimate how many complete Sonata cycles have
been recorded from the first (probably Schnabel) to the present?
Well, I shall try to think of the ones I own, for example, and not in
any particular order.
Schnabel
Kempff (three times, all for DG)
Backhaus (twice, minus a stereo Hammerklavier, both for Decca)
Arrau (once complete, for Philips, a partial for EMI and an almost
complete digital for Philips)
Gulda (twice, once for Decca, and another for Amadeo)
Barenboim (twice, once for EMI, a second for DG in digital)
Robert Riefling (on LP, unsure of a CD issue)
Dieter Zechlin (on LP from East Germany, unsure of a complete CD issue)
Michael Houston (on Morriston Trust, from New Zealand)
Robert Taub (on Vox)
Alfred Brendel (three times, matching Kempff: first for Vox and then
twice for Philips)
Stephen Kovacevich (a very partial one for Philips, then a complete one
for EMI, with one remake)
Vladimir Ashkenazy(for Decca)
Eric Heidsieck (for French EMI)
Yves Nat (originally for Discophiles Francais, I think, issued by EMI
on LP and CD)
Rudolf Buchbinder (for Teldec)
Ian Hobson (for Zephyr)
Joyce Hatto (for Concert Recordings)
Claude Frank (for RCA Victor, released on CD by M&A)
Anton Kuerti (for Acquitaine Records, also released on CBS on LP)
John Lill (for ASV, released on CD by Brilliant Box)
These may not be all of the ones I own. Just off the top of my head.
There are others I know of, but don't own. Joerg Demus, for example and
his buddy Paul Badura-Skoda, and then there were the almost complete
cycles by Gieseking, Gilels and Richter.
The ones that I can add are: Annie Fischer, John O'Connor, Russell
Sherman. That would make the total so far at 24 or 25 complete sets.
Add Richard Goode (Nonesuch).
--
NewsGuy.Com 30Gb $9.95 Carry Forward and On Demand Bandwidth
tomdeacon
2006-04-24 16:15:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Simon Roberts
says...
Post by JohnGavin
Post by tomdeacon
Post by JohnGavin
Tom, or anyone - can you estimate how many complete Sonata cycles have
been recorded from the first (probably Schnabel) to the present?
Well, I shall try to think of the ones I own, for example, and not in
any particular order.
Schnabel
Kempff (three times, all for DG)
Backhaus (twice, minus a stereo Hammerklavier, both for Decca)
Arrau (once complete, for Philips, a partial for EMI and an almost
complete digital for Philips)
Gulda (twice, once for Decca, and another for Amadeo)
Barenboim (twice, once for EMI, a second for DG in digital)
Robert Riefling (on LP, unsure of a CD issue)
Dieter Zechlin (on LP from East Germany, unsure of a complete CD issue)
Michael Houston (on Morriston Trust, from New Zealand)
Robert Taub (on Vox)
Alfred Brendel (three times, matching Kempff: first for Vox and then
twice for Philips)
Stephen Kovacevich (a very partial one for Philips, then a complete one
for EMI, with one remake)
Vladimir Ashkenazy(for Decca)
Eric Heidsieck (for French EMI)
Yves Nat (originally for Discophiles Francais, I think, issued by EMI
on LP and CD)
Rudolf Buchbinder (for Teldec)
Ian Hobson (for Zephyr)
Joyce Hatto (for Concert Recordings)
Claude Frank (for RCA Victor, released on CD by M&A)
Anton Kuerti (for Acquitaine Records, also released on CBS on LP)
John Lill (for ASV, released on CD by Brilliant Box)
These may not be all of the ones I own. Just off the top of my head.
There are others I know of, but don't own. Joerg Demus, for example and
his buddy Paul Badura-Skoda, and then there were the almost complete
cycles by Gieseking, Gilels and Richter.
The ones that I can add are: Annie Fischer, John O'Connor, Russell
Sherman. That would make the total so far at 24 or 25 complete sets.
Add Richard Goode (Nonesuch).
Another one on my shelf. Thank you.

TD
tomdeacon
2006-04-24 16:14:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by JohnGavin
Post by tomdeacon
Post by JohnGavin
Tom, or anyone - can you estimate how many complete Sonata cycles have
been recorded from the first (probably Schnabel) to the present?
Well, I shall try to think of the ones I own, for example, and not in
any particular order.
Schnabel
Kempff (three times, all for DG)
Backhaus (twice, minus a stereo Hammerklavier, both for Decca)
Arrau (once complete, for Philips, a partial for EMI and an almost
complete digital for Philips)
Gulda (twice, once for Decca, and another for Amadeo)
Barenboim (twice, once for EMI, a second for DG in digital)
Robert Riefling (on LP, unsure of a CD issue)
Dieter Zechlin (on LP from East Germany, unsure of a complete CD issue)
Michael Houston (on Morriston Trust, from New Zealand)
Robert Taub (on Vox)
Alfred Brendel (three times, matching Kempff: first for Vox and then
twice for Philips)
Stephen Kovacevich (a very partial one for Philips, then a complete one
for EMI, with one remake)
Vladimir Ashkenazy(for Decca)
Eric Heidsieck (for French EMI)
Yves Nat (originally for Discophiles Francais, I think, issued by EMI
on LP and CD)
Rudolf Buchbinder (for Teldec)
Ian Hobson (for Zephyr)
Joyce Hatto (for Concert Recordings)
Claude Frank (for RCA Victor, released on CD by M&A)
Anton Kuerti (for Acquitaine Records, also released on CBS on LP)
John Lill (for ASV, released on CD by Brilliant Box)
These may not be all of the ones I own. Just off the top of my head.
There are others I know of, but don't own. Joerg Demus, for example and
his buddy Paul Badura-Skoda, and then there were the almost complete
cycles by Gieseking, Gilels and Richter.
The ones that I can add are: Annie Fischer, John O'Connor, Russell
Sherman. That would make the total so far at 24 or 25 complete sets.
Indeed.

I own the Fischer and the Russell Sherman, but they slipped my mind.

TD
JohnGavin
2006-04-24 16:24:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by tomdeacon
Post by JohnGavin
Post by tomdeacon
Post by JohnGavin
Tom, or anyone - can you estimate how many complete Sonata cycles have
been recorded from the first (probably Schnabel) to the present?
Well, I shall try to think of the ones I own, for example, and not in
any particular order.
Schnabel
Kempff (three times, all for DG)
Backhaus (twice, minus a stereo Hammerklavier, both for Decca)
Arrau (once complete, for Philips, a partial for EMI and an almost
complete digital for Philips)
Gulda (twice, once for Decca, and another for Amadeo)
Barenboim (twice, once for EMI, a second for DG in digital)
Robert Riefling (on LP, unsure of a CD issue)
Dieter Zechlin (on LP from East Germany, unsure of a complete CD issue)
Michael Houston (on Morriston Trust, from New Zealand)
Robert Taub (on Vox)
Alfred Brendel (three times, matching Kempff: first for Vox and then
twice for Philips)
Stephen Kovacevich (a very partial one for Philips, then a complete one
for EMI, with one remake)
Vladimir Ashkenazy(for Decca)
Eric Heidsieck (for French EMI)
Yves Nat (originally for Discophiles Francais, I think, issued by EMI
on LP and CD)
Rudolf Buchbinder (for Teldec)
Ian Hobson (for Zephyr)
Joyce Hatto (for Concert Recordings)
Claude Frank (for RCA Victor, released on CD by M&A)
Anton Kuerti (for Acquitaine Records, also released on CBS on LP)
John Lill (for ASV, released on CD by Brilliant Box)
These may not be all of the ones I own. Just off the top of my head.
There are others I know of, but don't own. Joerg Demus, for example and
his buddy Paul Badura-Skoda, and then there were the almost complete
cycles by Gieseking, Gilels and Richter.
The ones that I can add are: Annie Fischer, John O'Connor, Russell
Sherman. That would make the total so far at 24 or 25 complete sets.
Indeed.
I own the Fischer and the Russell Sherman, but they slipped my mind.
TD
Did they slip your mind because they are forgettable cycles? The
excerpts from Sherman that I've heard were not terribly convincing.
Fischer, on the other hand was a very revered pianist.
tomdeacon
2006-04-24 16:44:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by JohnGavin
Post by tomdeacon
I own the Fischer and the Russell Sherman, but they slipped my mind.
TD
Did they slip your mind because they are forgettable cycles? The
excerpts from Sherman that I've heard were not terribly convincing.
Fischer, on the other hand was a very revered pianist.
Old age, John. Too many dead brain cells, I suppose.

I remember the Sherman as being very good, but nothing sticks in my
mind, if you know what I mean. Fischer? Well, she was revered, and at
one time played very well, but I heard her a few times in person, was
not impressed particularly, specially with her techique, which was
flawed. It is a set which I intend to listen to again, however.

TD
Steve Emerson
2006-04-24 19:36:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by JohnGavin
Post by tomdeacon
Post by JohnGavin
The ones that I can add are: Annie Fischer, John O'Connor, Russell
Sherman. That would make the total so far at 24 or 25 complete sets.
Indeed.
I own the Fischer and the Russell Sherman, but they slipped my mind.
TD
Did they slip your mind because they are forgettable cycles? The
excerpts from Sherman that I've heard were not terribly convincing.
Fischer, on the other hand was a very revered pianist.
And worthy of the reverence, one that was accorded her by, among others,
Richter. The only general weakness of her Hungaroton recordings (very
different from the EMI, btw, and all recorded on a Bosendorfer) is that
they aren't very attuned to the playfulness, almost clowning found in
many of the works, e.g. the clowning of Op 31 No 1. Her Hungaroton 111
is one of the many gems.

SE.
tomdeacon
2006-04-24 20:37:17 UTC
Permalink
And worthy of the reverence, one that was accorded her by, among others, Richter.
I know that, and also by Andras Schiff, who went into a hissy-fit when
he heard that she was not in the GPE.

I bit my tongue VERY hard that day and did not respond in the manner I
wanted to, which would have made him even testier, I imagine.

Pianists!

Actually, it is usually best to avoid their recommendations altogether
and simply use one's own ears. And I would even say that of Richter.
Lord only knows what he ever heard of Madame Fischer.

I have had distinguished, nay, world famous pianists recommend some
pianists' work to me only to discover that they haven't really heard
very much at all. One celebrated pianist once recommended a pianist to
me, and when I asked "Did you actually HEAR X's Brahms concerto?" the
answer came back, "No, but X told me it was very fine". Case closed, of
course. It was just a case of the object of hero-worship returning the
favour. And shall we ever forgive Artur Rubinstein for some of his
favourites? Janina Fialkowska, indeed!

Pianists should stick to their knitting.

TD
Steve Emerson
2006-04-25 01:32:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by tomdeacon
And worthy of the reverence, one that was accorded her by, among others, Richter.
I know that, and also by Andras Schiff, who went into a hissy-fit when
he heard that she was not in the GPE.
I bit my tongue VERY hard that day and did not respond in the manner I
wanted to, which would have made him even testier, I imagine.
Pianists!
Actually, it is usually best to avoid their recommendations altogether
and simply use one's own ears. And I would even say that of Richter.
Lord only knows what he ever heard of Madame Fischer.
I have had distinguished, nay, world famous pianists recommend some
pianists' work to me only to discover that they haven't really heard
very much at all. One celebrated pianist once recommended a pianist to
me, and when I asked "Did you actually HEAR X's Brahms concerto?" the
answer came back, "No, but X told me it was very fine". Case closed, of
course. It was just a case of the object of hero-worship returning the
favour. And shall we ever forgive Artur Rubinstein for some of his
favourites? Janina Fialkowska, indeed!
You're right about all that, of course. There being two points really:
They may be drawing on far too little data, and they may not be good
judges of others' playing.

Anyway in the case of Richter and AF, he was at least right. In fact my
experience is that he is a reliable judge; naturally tastes vary.

SE.
tomdeacon
2006-04-25 01:38:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve Emerson
Anyway in the case of Richter and AF, he was at least right. In fact my
experience is that he is a reliable judge; naturally tastes vary.
Gee, Steve.

Was he right about Gilels? And Horowitz? and Yudina?

Frankly, I don't think he is any more reliable than any other pianist I
have known. Pianists often admire pianists who are weaker than they
are. Somehow, it makes them seem better, I suppose. Even Richter, for
all his genius, had his demons.

Where Fischer is concerned, I don't share his enthusiasm. But then, I
actually heard the lady play a few times, including a very weak Brahms
2. Weak? Let's be frank. It was a disaster. She was no Gina Bachauer!!!

TD
Steve Emerson
2006-04-25 03:21:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by tomdeacon
Post by Steve Emerson
Anyway in the case of Richter and AF, he was at least right. In fact my
experience is that he is a reliable judge; naturally tastes vary.
Gee, Steve.
Was he right about Gilels?
He admired Gilels. There were a few works that he never played because
he felt G. owned them. O/w, things appear to have been squirrelly
between them. Unsurprising.
Post by tomdeacon
And Horowitz?
Yes.
Post by tomdeacon
and Yudina?
All of his characterizations of her playing seem to me accurate. Whether
one likes the playing so described is another matter; I like it better
than he does. In any case, he does refer to her with respect.

You don't admire Philippe Entremont, do you?
Post by tomdeacon
Frankly, I don't think he is any more reliable than any other pianist I
have known. Pianists often admire pianists who are weaker than they
are. Somehow, it makes them seem better, I suppose. Even Richter, for
all his genius, had his demons.
Where Fischer is concerned, I don't share his enthusiasm. But then, I
actually heard the lady play a few times, including a very weak Brahms
2. Weak? Let's be frank. It was a disaster. She was no Gina Bachauer!!!
Maybe the wrong time in her career. She left many wonderful recordings;
some of them live.

SE.
tomdeacon
2006-04-25 10:33:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve Emerson
Post by tomdeacon
Post by Steve Emerson
Anyway in the case of Richter and AF, he was at least right. In fact my
experience is that he is a reliable judge; naturally tastes vary.
Gee, Steve.
Was he right about Gilels?
He admired Gilels. There were a few works that he never played because
he felt G. owned them. O/w, things appear to have been squirrelly
between them. Unsurprising.
Admiration would not be the word I would have used.

Gilels was a Communist Party Member, and possibly KGB.

Richter feared him more than anything else. And was jealous, of course.
Post by Steve Emerson
Post by tomdeacon
And Horowitz?
Depends upon what you think his take on Horowitz actually was?
Post by Steve Emerson
Post by tomdeacon
and Yudina?
All of his characterizations of her playing seem to me accurate. Whether
one likes the playing so described is another matter; I like it better
than he does. In any case, he does refer to her with respect.
Respect? I suppose that is why he played Rachmaninoff at her funeral.

Actually, Richter was thumbing his nose at the old cow!
Post by Steve Emerson
You don't admire Philippe Entremont, do you?
How did that person enter the discussion.

I not only don't like his playing, I don't respect him either. A fake.
Post by Steve Emerson
Post by tomdeacon
Frankly, I don't think he is any more reliable than any other pianist I
have known. Pianists often admire pianists who are weaker than they
are. Somehow, it makes them seem better, I suppose. Even Richter, for
all his genius, had his demons.
Where Fischer is concerned, I don't share his enthusiasm. But then, I
actually heard the lady play a few times, including a very weak Brahms
2. Weak? Let's be frank. It was a disaster. She was no Gina Bachauer!!!
Maybe the wrong time in her career. She left many wonderful recordings;
some of them live.
Question: Did you ever heard Annie Fischer play?

TD
MrT
2006-04-25 10:39:37 UTC
Permalink
I heard Annie Fischer play. She was in her seventies. The concert
(Beethoven, Schumann, and something else I forget) was wonderful. She
projected the music very strongly --no different from her recordings. I
would lie if I said that her tone was beautiful: it was not, but it was
serviceable and didn't get in the way of the music. She played with
great authority and energy, without any hesitation whatsoever.

For a great concert recording, her Bartok 3 with Fricsay (Orfeo), a
performance for the ages. She did have a rather narrow repertoire, a
pity.

Best,

MrT
tomdeacon
2006-04-25 11:00:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by MrT
I heard Annie Fischer play. She was in her seventies. The concert
(Beethoven, Schumann, and something else I forget) was wonderful. She
projected the music very strongly --no different from her recordings. I
would lie if I said that her tone was beautiful: it was not, but it was
serviceable and didn't get in the way of the music. She played with
great authority and energy, without any hesitation whatsoever.
I heard the same repertoire - the Schumann was the Fantasy, if I
remember correctly - and it was a shambles.
Post by MrT
For a great concert recording, her Bartok 3 with Fricsay (Orfeo), a
performance for the ages. She did have a rather narrow repertoire, a
pity.
That is among her best performances. But I do believe that Ditta
Pastory-Bartok gets my own vote in that piece, even over Geza Anda,
Kocsis, and Fischer.

TD
Martin Altschwager
2006-04-25 11:06:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by tomdeacon
Post by Steve Emerson
Was he [Richter] right about Gilels?
He admired Gilels. There were a few works that he never played because
he felt G. owned them. O/w, things appear to have been squirrelly
between them. Unsurprising.
Admiration would not be the word I would have used.
Gilels was a Communist Party Member, and possibly KGB.
Richter feared him more than anything else. And was jealous, of course.
This is interesting. I know Gilels was a Party member, but is there any
evidence that he had any substantial influence on political matters or
people? Sure, he was in the Tchaikovsky jury, but so was Richter (once, I
believe).

When you say Richter feared him, then why? Or, for how long?

As for jealousy, I'm inclined to think that it was rather Gilels who had
reason to be jealous, since Richter, once having introduced himself in
person in the West, seems to have become more popular than Gilels (not to
mention the reputation Richter enjoyed in the USSR).

M.A.
tomdeacon
2006-04-25 11:56:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Martin Altschwager
Post by tomdeacon
Post by Steve Emerson
Was he [Richter] right about Gilels?
He admired Gilels. There were a few works that he never played because
he felt G. owned them. O/w, things appear to have been squirrelly
between them. Unsurprising.
Admiration would not be the word I would have used.
Gilels was a Communist Party Member, and possibly KGB.
Richter feared him more than anything else. And was jealous, of course.
This is interesting. I know Gilels was a Party member, but is there any
evidence that he had any substantial influence on political matters or
people? Sure, he was in the Tchaikovsky jury, but so was Richter (once, I
believe).
When you say Richter feared him, then why? Or, for how long?
All Russians were afraid of their neighbours, who routinely would rat
on them.

Gilels was KGB. Richter was a notorious homosexual. He was removed from
the Moscow Conservatory because he was molesting his students.
Homosexuals were routinely sent to Siberia. Have you seen "Breznev's
Queen"? It is highly instructive.
Post by Martin Altschwager
As for jealousy, I'm inclined to think that it was rather Gilels who had
reason to be jealous, since Richter, once having introduced himself in
person in the West, seems to have become more popular than Gilels (not to
mention the reputation Richter enjoyed in the USSR).
Both were popular. Richter had his fans. Gilels had his. Often they
played the same repertoire, particularly Prokofiev, who wrote his
Sonata No. 8 for Gilels.

Gilels was allowed in and out of the Soviet Union with almost complete
freedom, right from the time of his first visits in 1955 to North
America and often toured and performed with the world's greatest
orchestras. Richter had strained relationships with most conductors and
orchestras, toured small villages in Europe and the SU.

Personally I don't have much time for comparative ratings of two such
fantastic pianists. This whole discussion began when Steve, I think,
suggested that Richter admired Gilels. Not really true, I think.

TD
JohnGavin
2006-04-25 14:38:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by tomdeacon
Post by Martin Altschwager
Post by tomdeacon
Post by Steve Emerson
Was he [Richter] right about Gilels?
He admired Gilels. There were a few works that he never played because
he felt G. owned them. O/w, things appear to have been squirrelly
between them. Unsurprising.
Admiration would not be the word I would have used.
Gilels was a Communist Party Member, and possibly KGB.
Richter feared him more than anything else. And was jealous, of course.
This is interesting. I know Gilels was a Party member, but is there any
evidence that he had any substantial influence on political matters or
people? Sure, he was in the Tchaikovsky jury, but so was Richter (once, I
believe).
When you say Richter feared him, then why? Or, for how long?
All Russians were afraid of their neighbours, who routinely would rat
on them.
Gilels was KGB. Richter was a notorious homosexual. He was removed from
the Moscow Conservatory because he was molesting his students.
Homosexuals were routinely sent to Siberia. Have you seen "Breznev's
Queen"? It is highly instructive.
Post by Martin Altschwager
As for jealousy, I'm inclined to think that it was rather Gilels who had
reason to be jealous, since Richter, once having introduced himself in
person in the West, seems to have become more popular than Gilels (not to
mention the reputation Richter enjoyed in the USSR).
Both were popular. Richter had his fans. Gilels had his. Often they
played the same repertoire, particularly Prokofiev, who wrote his
Sonata No. 8 for Gilels.
Gilels was allowed in and out of the Soviet Union with almost complete
freedom, right from the time of his first visits in 1955 to North
America and often toured and performed with the world's greatest
orchestras. Richter had strained relationships with most conductors and
orchestras, toured small villages in Europe and the SU.
I didn't know that Richter had strained relationships with conductors.
It is interesting though that Richter seemed to have been much more of
a collaborative pianist than Gilels - think of all the musicians he
played with - Rostropovitch, Oistrakh, Kogan, singers too - DFD, Pears
etc. he worked closely with Britten, and Gavrilov and the pianist with
whom he recorded the Mozart/Grieg pieces.

Gilels, if I am not mistaken did far less of this type of thing - so it
would not seem to be clear as to who was the more difficult personality
to work with.
tomdeacon
2006-04-25 15:26:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by JohnGavin
I didn't know that Richter had strained relationships with conductors.
I suppose you would have to have asked Herbert von Karajan, Munch,
Leinsdorf, Ormandy, Celi, Mravinsky, Kondrashin and so on.

You can still ask Riccardo Muti. He might tell you.

TD
JohnGavin
2006-04-25 15:31:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by tomdeacon
Post by JohnGavin
I didn't know that Richter had strained relationships with conductors.
I suppose you would have to have asked Herbert von Karajan, Munch,
Leinsdorf, Ormandy, Celi, Mravinsky, Kondrashin and so on.
You can still ask Riccardo Muti. He might tell you.
TD
I don't disbelieve you - (although isn't Muti supposed to be quite a
difficult character himself).
Martin Altschwager
2006-04-25 16:57:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by tomdeacon
Post by Martin Altschwager
Post by tomdeacon
Gilels was a Communist Party Member, and possibly KGB.
Richter feared him more than anything else. And was jealous, of course.
This is interesting. I know Gilels was a Party member, but is there any
evidence that he had any substantial influence on political matters or
people? Sure, he was in the Tchaikovsky jury, but so was Richter (once, I
believe).
When you say Richter feared him, then why? Or, for how long?
Gilels was KGB.
I asked what evidence there is for this claim. In your previous post, you
said "possibly KGB".
Post by tomdeacon
Richter was a notorious homosexual. He was removed from
the Moscow Conservatory because he was molesting his students.
Is this rumour or a fact?
Post by tomdeacon
Homosexuals were routinely sent to Siberia. Have you seen "Breznev's
Queen"? It is highly instructive.
Post by Martin Altschwager
As for jealousy, I'm inclined to think that it was rather Gilels who had
reason to be jealous, since Richter, once having introduced himself in
person in the West, seems to have become more popular than Gilels (not
to mention the reputation Richter enjoyed in the USSR).
Both were popular. Richter had his fans. Gilels had his. Often they
played the same repertoire, particularly Prokofiev, who wrote his
Sonata No. 8 for Gilels.
Gilels was allowed in and out of the Soviet Union with almost complete
freedom, right from the time of his first visits in 1955 to North
America and often toured and performed with the world's greatest
orchestras. Richter had strained relationships with most conductors and
orchestras, toured small villages in Europe and the SU.
Are you suggesting that Richter was jealous of Gilels because the latter had
better relationships with major orchestras and conductors?

Am I mistaken that Richter could have played whereever he wanted, but chose
to avoid huge venues, particularly in the U.S.?

M.A.
tomdeacon
2006-04-25 19:59:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Martin Altschwager
Post by tomdeacon
Richter was a notorious homosexual. He was removed from
the Moscow Conservatory because he was molesting his students.
Is this rumour or a fact?
Richter is dead now and it really doesn't matter.

But it is not rumour, Martin; it is a fact. His teaching career was
thankfully very short-lived.
Post by Martin Altschwager
Am I mistaken that Richter could have played whereever he wanted, but chose
to avoid huge venues, particularly in the U.S.?
He chose to avoid huge venues at all costs. Hated the prestige dates.
Loved the tiny halls lost in the countryside somewhere. Anywhere.

Gilels did not behave in this manner. He did not indulge in reverse
snobbism of this kind, however understandable for Richter, who was
quite shy really.

TD
d***@sympatico.ca
2006-04-25 14:03:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Martin Altschwager
As for jealousy, I'm inclined to think that it was rather Gilels who had
reason to be jealous, since Richter, once having introduced himself in
person in the West, seems to have become more popular than Gilels (not to
mention the reputation Richter enjoyed in the USSR).
M.A.
We're way OT here, but I'd be interested in hearing from anyone who can
say briefly what is was about their (obviously disparate) musical
backgrounds that made Gilels and Richter so different. They seem to
have had little to do with one another both musically and personally.

JG
http://www.pianosociety.com/index.php?id=98
Paul Goldstein
2006-04-25 15:32:05 UTC
Permalink
In article <***@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com>, tomdeacon
says...
Post by tomdeacon
Question: Did you ever heard Annie Fischer play?
Why would a single bad concert outweigh a box full of excellent studio
recordings? Not to mention an incandescent live Bartok 3 (w/Fricsay).
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tomdeacon
2006-04-25 19:55:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Simon Roberts
says...
Post by tomdeacon
Question: Did you ever heard Annie Fischer play?
Why would a single bad concert outweigh a box full of excellent studio
recordings? Not to mention an incandescent live Bartok 3 (w/Fricsay).
So, you didn't hear her play.

TD
Paul Goldstein
2006-04-25 20:16:40 UTC
Permalink
In article <***@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com>, tomdeacon
says...
Post by tomdeacon
Post by Simon Roberts
says...
Post by tomdeacon
Question: Did you ever heard Annie Fischer play?
Why would a single bad concert outweigh a box full of excellent studio
recordings? Not to mention an incandescent live Bartok 3 (w/Fricsay).
So, you didn't hear her play.
That's right. And the answer to my question is . . . ?
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Jan Werner
2006-04-24 15:49:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by tomdeacon
Post by JohnGavin
Tom, or anyone - can you estimate how many complete Sonata cycles have
been recorded from the first (probably Schnabel) to the present?
Well, I shall try to think of the ones I own, for example, and not in
any particular order.
Schnabel
Kempff (three times, all for DG)
Backhaus (twice, minus a stereo Hammerklavier, both for Decca)
Arrau (once complete, for Philips, a partial for EMI and an almost
complete digital for Philips)
Gulda (twice, once for Decca, and another for Amadeo)
Barenboim (twice, once for EMI, a second for DG in digital)
Robert Riefling (on LP, unsure of a CD issue)
Dieter Zechlin (on LP from East Germany, unsure of a complete CD issue)
Michael Houston (on Morriston Trust, from New Zealand)
Robert Taub (on Vox)
Alfred Brendel (three times, matching Kempff: first for Vox and then
twice for Philips)
Stephen Kovacevich (a very partial one for Philips, then a complete one
for EMI, with one remake)
Vladimir Ashkenazy(for Decca)
Eric Heidsieck (for French EMI)
Yves Nat (originally for Discophiles Francais, I think, issued by EMI
on LP and CD)
Rudolf Buchbinder (for Teldec)
Ian Hobson (for Zephyr)
Joyce Hatto (for Concert Recordings)
Claude Frank (for RCA Victor, released on CD by M&A)
Anton Kuerti (for Acquitaine Records, also released on CBS on LP)
John Lill (for ASV, released on CD by Brilliant Box)
These may not be all of the ones I own. Just off the top of my head.
There are others I know of, but don't own. Joerg Demus, for example and
his buddy Paul Badura-Skoda, and then there were the almost complete
cycles by Gieseking, Gilels and Richter.
Perhaps others will add to my list. Andrew Grimshaw? Where are you?
Unfortunately I can't put my hands on my copy of "The Recordings of
Beethoven: as viewed from the critics of High Fidelity". I have just
stuffed it somewhere and don't know where. Harris Goldsmith's
contributed the review of all the piano recordings. He listened to
oceans of Beethoven for that project, making astute descriptive
comments on each and every one of them. Greenwood Press reprinted this
volume, which first came out in 1972 by Wyeth Press just after the big
Jean Bernard Pommier has (I believe) completed his set on Erato.
Excellent sound, but forgettable performances.

Nikolaeva recorded a complete set live in Moscow, with plenty of missed
notes and audience coughing. Available on Olympia.

Melodiya released a complete LP set by Maria Grinberg in the late
1960's. Dante started to put it on CD some time back but that project
apparently died (with Dante, I gather). I once heard David Dubal call
Grinberg's one of the greatest he had ever heard.

Jan Werner
--
***@NOSPAM.ORG
tomdeacon
2006-04-24 16:16:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jan Werner
Post by tomdeacon
Post by JohnGavin
Tom, or anyone - can you estimate how many complete Sonata cycles have
been recorded from the first (probably Schnabel) to the present?
Well, I shall try to think of the ones I own, for example, and not in
any particular order.
Schnabel
Kempff (three times, all for DG)
Backhaus (twice, minus a stereo Hammerklavier, both for Decca)
Arrau (once complete, for Philips, a partial for EMI and an almost
complete digital for Philips)
Gulda (twice, once for Decca, and another for Amadeo)
Barenboim (twice, once for EMI, a second for DG in digital)
Robert Riefling (on LP, unsure of a CD issue)
Dieter Zechlin (on LP from East Germany, unsure of a complete CD issue)
Michael Houston (on Morriston Trust, from New Zealand)
Robert Taub (on Vox)
Alfred Brendel (three times, matching Kempff: first for Vox and then
twice for Philips)
Stephen Kovacevich (a very partial one for Philips, then a complete one
for EMI, with one remake)
Vladimir Ashkenazy(for Decca)
Eric Heidsieck (for French EMI)
Yves Nat (originally for Discophiles Francais, I think, issued by EMI
on LP and CD)
Rudolf Buchbinder (for Teldec)
Ian Hobson (for Zephyr)
Joyce Hatto (for Concert Recordings)
Claude Frank (for RCA Victor, released on CD by M&A)
Anton Kuerti (for Acquitaine Records, also released on CBS on LP)
John Lill (for ASV, released on CD by Brilliant Box)
These may not be all of the ones I own. Just off the top of my head.
There are others I know of, but don't own. Joerg Demus, for example and
his buddy Paul Badura-Skoda, and then there were the almost complete
cycles by Gieseking, Gilels and Richter.
Perhaps others will add to my list. Andrew Grimshaw? Where are you?
Unfortunately I can't put my hands on my copy of "The Recordings of
Beethoven: as viewed from the critics of High Fidelity". I have just
stuffed it somewhere and don't know where. Harris Goldsmith's
contributed the review of all the piano recordings. He listened to
oceans of Beethoven for that project, making astute descriptive
comments on each and every one of them. Greenwood Press reprinted this
volume, which first came out in 1972 by Wyeth Press just after the big
Jean Bernard Pommier has (I believe) completed his set on Erato.
Excellent sound, but forgettable performances.
Nikolaeva recorded a complete set live in Moscow, with plenty of missed
notes and audience coughing. Available on Olympia.
Melodiya released a complete LP set by Maria Grinberg in the late
1960's. Dante started to put it on CD some time back but that project
apparently died (with Dante, I gather). I once heard David Dubal call
Grinberg's one of the greatest he had ever heard.
Another one on my shelf. Maria Grinberg. They are available from
russiandvd.com

TD
d***@sympatico.ca
2006-04-24 17:52:25 UTC
Permalink
A word on Mr. Lewis, and confession time. Years of playing these
pieces as a teen put me off them for 20 years or so. My wife alerted
me to Paul Lewis several months ago and I confess, having heard him
finally, that he has re-energized my interest in the Sonatas. Truth
be told, Lewis is hard to avoid in Toronto, where our 2 1/2 (not
counting Buffalo and other NPR stations we get here) "classical"
stations play NOTHING BUT Lewis' Tempest. He survived that particular
ordeal by fire. I can still listen to him. So he must be good.

The question is: can he play the late sonatas???

Kuerti's recorded some (not all) a long time ago for Monitor, I
believe; and they were wonderful. His current claim to fame is his
idiosyncratic rendition of the middle movement of the Moonlight,
(please excuse me for using that hideous title). He claims it isn't,
not the title, but the idiosyncrasy of his performance of the slow
movement. That's all I'm going to say about it. Folks will have to
judge for themselves.

These pieces DO stand on their own, much more so than, say, the
preludes and fugues from the Well-tempered. So who needs a "complete
set" anyway?

BTW, does anyone have any preferences re Barenboim's two cycles? And
who would care to rate performances of the late sonatas? Any takers?
I'll start by suggesting that Kovasavich belongs somewhere very near
the top. That can't be too controversial a statement, I hope.

JG
http://www.pianosociety.com/index.php?id=98
tomdeacon
2006-04-24 19:27:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by d***@sympatico.ca
A word on Mr. Lewis, and confession time. Years of playing these
pieces as a teen put me off them for 20 years or so. My wife alerted
me to Paul Lewis several months ago and I confess, having heard him
finally, that he has re-energized my interest in the Sonatas. Truth
be told, Lewis is hard to avoid in Toronto, where our 2 1/2 (not
counting Buffalo and other NPR stations we get here) "classical"
stations play NOTHING BUT Lewis' Tempest. He survived that particular
ordeal by fire. I can still listen to him. So he must be good.
The question is: can he play the late sonatas???
Surely we shall see.

Actually, those living in Vancouver and elsewhere will be able to tell
fairly soon, as he is slated to complete his live performances of the
complete cycle in a number of places, including London, of course, by
2007, I think.
Post by d***@sympatico.ca
Kuerti's recorded some (not all) a long time ago for Monitor, I
believe; and they were wonderful.
He also recorded them for Eleanor Sniderman's label Acquitaine, but
they were recorded by a pop producer and were as dry as dust. Perhaps
unsalvageable without the addition of some reverb.

And he has recorded some more sonatas for Analekta more recently.

His current claim to fame is his
Post by d***@sympatico.ca
idiosyncratic rendition of the middle movement of the Moonlight,
(please excuse me for using that hideous title). He claims it isn't,
not the title, but the idiosyncrasy of his performance of the slow
movement. That's all I'm going to say about it. Folks will have to
judge for themselves.
These pieces DO stand on their own, much more so than, say, the
preludes and fugues from the Well-tempered. So who needs a "complete
set" anyway?
You ask ME this question?
Post by d***@sympatico.ca
BTW, does anyone have any preferences re Barenboim's two cycles?
I heard Barenboim perform the sonatas in Paris in 1969/70 and those are
fairly represented by the EMI recordings, which were contemporaneous.
The digital set is recorded with typical DG clarity and brightness. It
is really a matter of taste, as Barenboim hasn't changed his
interpretations much over the years.

And who would care to rate performances of the late sonatas? Any
takers?

Of course.

ARRAU, by a very large margin over any others.
Myra Hess is still bewitching in Op. 109 & 110.
Post by d***@sympatico.ca
I'll start by suggesting that Kovasavich belongs somewhere very near
the top. That can't be too controversial a statement, I hope.
KovaCEvich, please, John. Either that, or Bishop, which he now hates.

TD
d***@sympatico.ca
2006-04-24 20:40:38 UTC
Permalink
tomdeacon wrote:
So who needs a "complete
Post by tomdeacon
Post by d***@sympatico.ca
set" anyway?
You ask ME this question?
The question wasn't directed at you in particular, but at the toiling
masses in general.
Post by tomdeacon
KovaCEvich, please, John. Either that, or Bishop, which he now hates.
TD
I liked "Bishop" myself. Certainly better than "Bishop/KovaCEvich",
which I recall seeing quite often years ago! BTW "KovaSAvich"? I got
that spelling off the net!! I admit, it did look odd.

JG
http://www.pianosociety.com/index.php?id=98
Paul Ilechko
2006-04-24 22:45:48 UTC
Permalink
So who needs a "complete set" anyway?
Good question. I have bits and pieces by Schnabel, Gilels, Rosen,
Richter, Pollini and Kovacevich. I don't particularly miss having them
all in one box, and some of the sonatas aren't really all that essential
anyway ...
Simon Roberts
2006-04-24 20:43:36 UTC
Permalink
In article <***@j33g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>, tomdeacon
says...

[snip]
Post by tomdeacon
Eric Heidsieck (for French EMI)
He rerecorded quite a few for a small French label whose name I forget; anyone
know if he redid all of them?

Anyone mention Pludermacher, Ohland, Lipkin and Lucchesini yet? (Not that I'm
saying they're worth mentioning; have heard little of the first and third, none
of the fourth; the one Ohland disc I heard was dreadful.)

Simon
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Paul Goldstein
2006-04-24 20:53:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Simon Roberts
says...
[snip]
Post by tomdeacon
Eric Heidsieck (for French EMI)
He rerecorded quite a few for a small French label whose name I forget; anyone
know if he redid all of them?
Anyone mention Pludermacher, Ohland, Lipkin and Lucchesini yet? (Not that I'm
saying they're worth mentioning; have heard little of the first and third, none
of the fourth; the one Ohland disc I heard was dreadful.)
Bernard Roberts, anyone?

Jeno Jando (some of his are actually quite good)?
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tomdeacon
2006-04-24 21:54:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul Goldstein
Post by Simon Roberts
says...
[snip]
Post by tomdeacon
Eric Heidsieck (for French EMI)
He rerecorded quite a few for a small French label whose name I forget; anyone
know if he redid all of them?
Anyone mention Pludermacher, Ohland, Lipkin and Lucchesini yet? (Not that I'm
saying they're worth mentioning; have heard little of the first and third, none
of the fourth; the one Ohland disc I heard was dreadful.)
Bernard Roberts, anyone?
Yes, I have that one. I own it in its DIRECT-TO-DISC incarnation. But
it has been twenty years since I heard it. At least. Probably
twenty-five.

It's out on CD, I think, but surely those are from a backup tape,
either analogue or digital?

TD
William Sommerwerck
2006-04-24 23:43:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by tomdeacon
Yes, I have that one. I own it in its DIRECT-TO-DISC incarnation.
But it has been twenty years since I heard it. At least. Probably
twenty-five.
It's out on CD, I think, but surely those are from a backup tape,
either analogue or digital?
I don't think so. The later version is, I think, a newer digital recording.
William Sommerwerck
2006-04-24 23:42:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul Goldstein
Bernard Roberts, anyone?
Yes. He did two for Nimbus. The earlier one is a direct-to-disk Ambisonic
recording! Remarkable sound -- you can "see" the piano -- it has width and
depth.

The latter digital recording, though not in the absolute top rank, is
awfully good (the Moonlight is the very, very best I've ever heard), and at
less than $30, it's a bargain.
tomdeacon
2006-04-24 21:51:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Simon Roberts
says...
[snip]
Post by tomdeacon
Eric Heidsieck (for French EMI)
He rerecorded quite a few for a small French label whose name I forget; anyone
know if he redid all of them?
No. The label was Cassiopee.
Post by Simon Roberts
Anyone mention Pludermacher, Ohland, Lipkin and Lucchesini yet? (Not that I'm
saying they're worth mentioning; have heard little of the first and third, none
of the fourth; the one Ohland disc I heard was dreadful.)
I am intrigued by the Pludermacher.

He was among the laureates of the Leeds Competition the year Lupu won
First Prize. Along with Anne Queffelec.

I already mentioned that I own the Lucchesini. It's in the pile marked
"to listen to when you get time".

TD
Tony Overington
2006-04-24 16:33:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by JohnGavin
Tom, or anyone - can you estimate how many complete Sonata cycles have
been recorded from the first (probably Schnabel) to the present?
There is a so-called "complete" list on the Albany site. However I
wouldn't trust it much. They also show a "complete" list for Chopin
etudes but it's not even close. They are showing something like 60
complete recordings, and I know someone who has almost 140. Go figure.
tomdeacon
2006-04-24 16:48:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tony Overington
Post by JohnGavin
Tom, or anyone - can you estimate how many complete Sonata cycles have
been recorded from the first (probably Schnabel) to the present?
There is a so-called "complete" list on the Albany site. However I
wouldn't trust it much. They also show a "complete" list for Chopin
etudes but it's not even close. They are showing something like 60
complete recordings, and I know someone who has almost 140. Go figure.
Well, indeed.

I give no credence to that figure at all.

I should also add Perl on Nuovo Era and Michael Levins on Ades, both of
which I own but hold no memories of.

TD
JohnGavin
2006-04-24 17:47:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by tomdeacon
Post by Tony Overington
Post by JohnGavin
Tom, or anyone - can you estimate how many complete Sonata cycles have
been recorded from the first (probably Schnabel) to the present?
There is a so-called "complete" list on the Albany site. However I
wouldn't trust it much. They also show a "complete" list for Chopin
etudes but it's not even close. They are showing something like 60
complete recordings, and I know someone who has almost 140. Go figure.
Well, indeed.
I give no credence to that figure at all.
I should also add Perl on Nuovo Era and Michael Levins on Ades, both of
which I own but hold no memories of.
TD
Adding Jando's complete set on Naxos makes about 35 pianists (not
counting multiple sets by the same pianist).
tomdeacon
2006-04-24 19:20:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by JohnGavin
Post by tomdeacon
Post by Tony Overington
Post by JohnGavin
Tom, or anyone - can you estimate how many complete Sonata cycles have
been recorded from the first (probably Schnabel) to the present?
There is a so-called "complete" list on the Albany site. However I
wouldn't trust it much. They also show a "complete" list for Chopin
etudes but it's not even close. They are showing something like 60
complete recordings, and I know someone who has almost 140. Go figure.
Well, indeed.
I give no credence to that figure at all.
I should also add Perl on Nuovo Era and Michael Levins on Ades, both of
which I own but hold no memories of.
TD
Adding Jando's complete set on Naxos makes about 35 pianists (not
counting multiple sets by the same pianist).
I forgot to add the recording of the complete sonatas by Eduardo del
Pueyo, which I own on LP, but which I have seen released on CD as a
whole set, but it now seems only available as ADW7071/2, which is a
grouping of favourite sonatas. It was recorded by PAVANE in Belgium,
where Del Pueyo taught at the Conservatory for many years. This is not
listed in the discography to which Vaneyes directed our attention.

TD
EM
2006-04-25 01:46:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by JohnGavin
Adding Jando's complete set on Naxos makes about 35 pianists (not
counting multiple sets by the same pianist).
Has Gulda been mentioned yet?

EM

Inviato da X-Privat.Org - Registrazione gratuita http://www.x-privat.org/join.php
tomdeacon
2006-04-25 01:33:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by EM
Post by JohnGavin
Adding Jando's complete set on Naxos makes about 35 pianists (not
counting multiple sets by the same pianist).
Has Gulda been mentioned yet?
Yes.

Twice. Decca - now on Original Masters - and Amadeo.

TD
MrT
2006-04-24 18:51:47 UTC
Permalink
Tom:

<<I should also add Perl on Nuovo Era and Michael Levins on Ades, both
of
which I own but hold no memories of. >>

Perl is on Arte Nova, not Nuova Era. He's pretty good. Did Robert Benz
ever finish his cycle on Thorofon? Does Thorofon even exist?

Best,

MrT
tomdeacon
2006-04-24 19:33:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by MrT
<<I should also add Perl on Nuovo Era and Michael Levins on Ades, both
of
which I own but hold no memories of. >>
Perl is on Arte Nova, not Nuova Era. He's pretty good. Did Robert Benz
ever finish his cycle on Thorofon? Does Thorofon even exist?
Right.

Confusing those two budget Italian labels.

What IS Thorofon when it is at home?

But to answer your question, yes. See this link.

http://www.amazon.de/exec/obidos/search-handle-form/ref=sr_sp_go_qs/028-7445225-9047735

It just never ends.

TD
Steve Emerson
2006-04-24 19:31:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by tomdeacon
Post by Tony Overington
Post by JohnGavin
Tom, or anyone - can you estimate how many complete Sonata cycles have
been recorded from the first (probably Schnabel) to the present?
There is a so-called "complete" list on the Albany site. However I
wouldn't trust it much. They also show a "complete" list for Chopin
etudes but it's not even close. They are showing something like 60
complete recordings, and I know someone who has almost 140. Go figure.
Well, indeed.
I give no credence to that figure at all.
I should also add Perl on Nuovo Era and Michael Levins on Ades, both of
which I own but hold no memories of.
Michael Levinas, that would be. Very stylish and attractive
Hammerklavier on the only one of these discs that I have.

SE.
tomdeacon
2006-04-24 20:26:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve Emerson
Post by tomdeacon
Post by Tony Overington
Post by JohnGavin
Tom, or anyone - can you estimate how many complete Sonata cycles have
been recorded from the first (probably Schnabel) to the present?
There is a so-called "complete" list on the Albany site. However I
wouldn't trust it much. They also show a "complete" list for Chopin
etudes but it's not even close. They are showing something like 60
complete recordings, and I know someone who has almost 140. Go figure.
Well, indeed.
I give no credence to that figure at all.
I should also add Perl on Nuovo Era and Michael Levins on Ades, both of
which I own but hold no memories of.
Michael Levinas, that would be. Very stylish and attractive
Hammerklavier on the only one of these discs that I have.
Yes. Typeing too fast, I suppose.

My colleague at Universal gave me it, and I am sorry to say I haven't
listened to it yet.

Another to put beside the CD player.

TD
Ian Pace
2006-04-24 22:03:56 UTC
Permalink
Just thought we could do with a different (and much smaller) list of cycles.

The three Boulez sonatas have been recorded by:

Claude Helffer
Herbert Henck
Idil Biret
Paavali Jumpannen
Pi-Hsien Chen

I think those are the only complete ones. Helffer, Jumpannen and Chen are
all very interesting - Chen is my personal choice (but I'm biased, she's a
friend). Biret's does have its qualities (it's MUCH drier and brittle than
the others, in line with a certain school of French pianism (even though she
isn't French)). Henck is a great pianist, but this is by far the worst
recording I've ever heard of his, very surprising and disappointing.

As David Gable pointed out elsewhere, Rosen was not given the chance to
complete his cycle with a recording of the Second Sonata. Other notable
recordings of individual sonatas include:

Aimard (1)
Rosen (1 & 3)
Pollini (2)
Pi-Hsien Chen (an earlier recording of 3)
Schleiermacher (3)

Ian
JO
2006-04-24 22:46:24 UTC
Permalink
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Newsgroups: rec.music.classical.recordings
Subject: How Many Complete BOULEZ Sonata Cycles Have Been Recorded
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Just thought we could do with a different (and much smaller) list of cycles.
Claude Helffer
Herbert Henck
Idil Biret
Paavali Jumpannen
Pi-Hsien Chen
I think those are the only complete ones. Helffer, Jumpannen and Chen are
all very interesting - Chen is my personal choice (but I'm biased, she's a
friend). Biret's does have its qualities (it's MUCH drier and brittle than
the others, in line with a certain school of French pianism (even though she
isn't French)). Henck is a great pianist, but this is by far the worst
recording I've ever heard of his, very surprising and disappointing.
As David Gable pointed out elsewhere, Rosen was not given the chance to
complete his cycle with a recording of the Second Sonata. Other notable
Aimard (1)
Rosen (1 & 3)
Pollini (2)
Pi-Hsien Chen (an earlier recording of 3)
Schleiermacher (3)
Ian
What do you think about Jumpannen's set? To me, his Second Sonata is a tad
less ferocious than Pollini's, but also a bit more human/poetic, if those
terms even apply to this piece!
d***@aol.com
2006-04-24 23:18:53 UTC
Permalink
"What do you think about Jumpannen's set?"

I only have a reliable opinion of his performance of the 3rd sonata,
and it's so reliable it changed the second time I listened: I've only
listened twice. Jumpannen's technique is remarkable and goes well
beyond the sort of mechanical perfection that too many players of this
music settle for: each distinctive little motivic shape, each little
burst of sound, comes straight out of his fingers with each individual
note in the shape perfectly controlledand weighted and individuated yet
with the shape seeming reasonably spontaneous. The only trouble is . .
. he knows how good he is. The whole thing is a bit of a virtuoso
stunt for him. Furthermore, the web of shifting sonorities created by
various pedal effects counts less for him than actually attacking
notes, although who knows how much the DG engineers are to blame for
this. In any case, it instantly shaves a degree of ambiguity off the
surface of this piece. Rosen's sound at forte and above can be
forceful, a triumph of the will and even a bit ugly, but he grasps the
delicate poetry of Boulez's delicate filigree far better than
Jumpannen. Nevertheless, there is a kind of distinction in Jumpannen's
playing that I don't hear in every young pianist playing this
repertory.

"To me, his Second Sonata is a tad less ferocious than Pollini's, but
also a bit more human/poetic, if those terms even apply to this piece!"

The Second Sonata should be ferocious . . . the Hammerklavier's
ferocity minus the good spirits and high humor . . . explosive
Artaudian French expressionism. It should also sound as if the pianist
is at the limit of his or her technique. I don't hear any of this in
Pollini's sleek, elegant, and secure performance, which I nevertheless
like. Pollini is early Boulez conceived as an especially cool and
beautiful kind of Chopin. And now all of the young things have more
than enough technique to play the thing effortlessly or seemingly
effortlessly: no way it IS effortless.

-david gable
Ian Pace
2006-04-24 23:58:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by d***@aol.com
"What do you think about Jumpannen's set?"
I only have a reliable opinion of his performance of the 3rd sonata,
and it's so reliable it changed the second time I listened: I've only
listened twice. Jumpannen's technique is remarkable and goes well
beyond the sort of mechanical perfection that too many players of this
music settle for: each distinctive little motivic shape, each little
burst of sound, comes straight out of his fingers with each individual
note in the shape perfectly controlledand weighted and individuated yet
with the shape seeming reasonably spontaneous. The only trouble is . .
. he knows how good he is. The whole thing is a bit of a virtuoso
stunt for him. Furthermore, the web of shifting sonorities created by
various pedal effects counts less for him than actually attacking
notes, although who knows how much the DG engineers are to blame for
this. In any case, it instantly shaves a degree of ambiguity off the
surface of this piece. Rosen's sound at forte and above can be
forceful, a triumph of the will and even a bit ugly, but he grasps the
delicate poetry of Boulez's delicate filigree far better than
Jumpannen. Nevertheless, there is a kind of distinction in Jumpannen's
playing that I don't hear in every young pianist playing this
repertory.
"To me, his Second Sonata is a tad less ferocious than Pollini's, but
also a bit more human/poetic, if those terms even apply to this piece!"
The Second Sonata should be ferocious . . . the Hammerklavier's
ferocity minus the good spirits and high humor . . . explosive
Artaudian French expressionism. It should also sound as if the pianist
is at the limit of his or her technique. I don't hear any of this in
Pollini's sleek, elegant, and secure performance, which I nevertheless
like. Pollini is early Boulez conceived as an especially cool and
beautiful kind of Chopin. And now all of the young things have more
than enough technique to play the thing effortlessly or seemingly
effortlessly: no way it IS effortless.
I agree absolutely that the Second Sonata is not 'effortless', but I doubt
many pianists really find it as such to play - it's extraordinarily
unidiomatic to play and contrived in its physical layout (certainly compared
to the Third). Harder than playing Ferneyhough in many ways, I would say
(and I've played the Boulez Second quite a number of times). I certainly
don't know of anyone else who plays it who doesn't find it challenging. I
agree with you about Pollini - but you should hear Chen, also her new Third.
She brings a much wider articulative spectrum than Jumpannen to the music
(though somewhat slower tempi) in such a way that the detail really bites.
Jumpannen's fluency is achieved at the expense of this to some extent, I
find.

Ian
Steve Emerson
2006-04-25 04:25:17 UTC
Permalink
The Second [Boulez] Sonata should be ferocious . . . the Hammerklavier's
ferocity minus the good spirits and high humor . . . explosive
Artaudian French expressionism. It should also sound as if the pianist
is at the limit of his or her technique. I don't hear any of this in
Pollini's sleek, elegant, and secure performance, which I nevertheless
like. Pollini is early Boulez conceived as an especially cool and
beautiful kind of Chopin.
I don't know that Helffer's is any less debonair than Pollini's, btw.
Although I like them both.

SE.
d***@aol.com
2006-04-25 07:16:03 UTC
Permalink
Steve Emerson writes:

"I like them both."

I had no idea you were interested in this repertory. (Carter is an
entirely other animal.) Now if I could only get you interested in
orchestral music, because the 2nd Sonata is an admittedly ambitious but
very early piece not really representative of Boulez at the height of
his powers. There are some Boulez and Berio orchestral pieces that I
would give anything to get you to listen to . . . Pli selon pli;
Figures, doubles, prismes; the first orchestral version of Le visage
nuptial; Nones; Allelujah II; Epifanie; Chemins II; Chemins III.
I can think of a few other things.

-david gable
tomdeacon
2006-04-25 10:34:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by d***@aol.com
"I like them both."
I had no idea you were interested in this repertory.
I'm not.

TD
tomdeacon
2006-04-25 10:37:51 UTC
Permalink
I don't know that Helffer's is any less debonair than Pollini's, btw. Although I like them both.
Well, actually, their Beethoven is comparable. Although I have to say,
Steve, that you knowledge of Helffer's Beethoven astonishes me. I
didn't know you went into such depth with this pianist.

Also surprised that you like Pollini so much. He has received an
inordinate amount of criticism for his Beethoven in this forum.
Frankly, I can take it or leave it, but it is masterfully played.

TD
Steve Emerson
2006-04-25 19:40:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by tomdeacon
Post by Steve Emerson
I don't know that Helffer's is any less debonair than Pollini's, btw.
Although I like them both.
Well, actually, their Beethoven is comparable. Although I have to say,
Steve, that you knowledge of Helffer's Beethoven astonishes me. I
didn't know you went into such depth with this pianist.
As yet I do not, in fact I only know Helffer's Schoenberg and Boulez;
haven't even heard the Iberia to date.

Sorry, this was in the Boulez thread-drift.
Post by tomdeacon
Also surprised that you like Pollini so much. He has received an
inordinate amount of criticism for his Beethoven in this forum.
Frankly, I can take it or leave it, but it is masterfully played.
What I've heard of the Beethoven leaves me pretty cold (it is probably
just the late sonatas) and is not among my favorite Pollini. It wouldn't
surprise if some of the Beethoven were likeable, I simply haven't heard
it. He does a superb job with Schubert D 946 in the performance you
picked up for the Philips series. If he played something like Les Adieux
in a way that exploited those same resources, it would be interesting.

SE.
tomdeacon
2006-04-24 23:34:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ian Pace
Just thought we could do with a different (and much smaller) list of cycles.
Fine.

Start a new thread.

TD
JohnGavin
2006-04-25 01:40:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by JO
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Newsgroups: rec.music.classical.recordings
Subject: How Many Complete BOULEZ Sonata Cycles Have Been Recorded
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Xref: prodigy.net rec.music.classical.recordings:847058
Just thought we could do with a different (and much smaller) list of cycles.
Claude Helffer
Herbert Henck
Idil Biret
Paavali Jumpannen
Pi-Hsien Chen
I think those are the only complete ones. Helffer, Jumpannen and Chen are
all very interesting - Chen is my personal choice (but I'm biased, she's a
friend). Biret's does have its qualities (it's MUCH drier and brittle than
the others, in line with a certain school of French pianism (even though she
isn't French)). Henck is a great pianist, but this is by far the worst
recording I've ever heard of his, very surprising and disappointing.
As David Gable pointed out elsewhere, Rosen was not given the chance to
complete his cycle with a recording of the Second Sonata. Other notable
Aimard (1)
Rosen (1 & 3)
Pollini (2)
Pi-Hsien Chen (an earlier recording of 3)
Schleiermacher (3)
Ian
What do you think about Jumpannen's set? To me, his Second Sonata is a tad
less ferocious than Pollini's, but also a bit more human/poetic, if those
terms even apply to this piece!
There's a recording of the 2nd Sonata on a Phillips CD released in 1993
by a Van Cliburn Competition winner named Christopher Taylor. I can't
say whether or not he is competitive with the big names though. He has
made a reputation in 20th Century music and recorded a complete
Messiaen Vingt Regards on a smaller label.
j***@aol.com
2006-04-24 22:54:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ian Pace
Just thought we could do with a different (and much smaller) list of cycles.
Claude Helffer
Herbert Henck
Idil Biret
Paavali Jumpannen
Pi-Hsien Chen
Don't you think it's kinda rude to be Jumpannen to a Beethoven thread
in this manner?

--Jeff
tomdeacon
2006-04-24 23:36:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by j***@aol.com
Post by Ian Pace
Just thought we could do with a different (and much smaller) list of cycles.
Claude Helffer
Herbert Henck
Idil Biret
Paavali Jumpannen
Pi-Hsien Chen
Don't you think it's kinda rude to be Jumpannen to a Beethoven thread
in this manner?
Quite.

TD
d***@aol.com
2006-04-24 23:00:53 UTC
Permalink
David Burge recorded Boulez's 1st and 2nd, although I'm not sure the
2nd was ever released. Don't know if he got to the 3rd. Helffer not
only recorded the complete cycle that's in print: in the early 60's he
recorded the 2nd for DG. Biret, too, recorded the 2nd many years ago
outside of her cycle on Naxos: for Finnadar. (I think that recording
dates from the end of her studies with Nadia Boulanger when she first
made a bit of a splash.) I like Jumpannen's youthfully flashy and
extraordinarily technically assured DG Constellation/Miroir upon
relistening much more than the first time I listened, when I found his
cheekiness positively offensive, but Rosen's is still my favorite. I
also like Hellfer and the earlier Chen recording of the 3rd Sonata:
haven't heard her complete cycle. There are plenty of other recordings
of individual sonatas. I stopped keeping track long ago. The only
sonata I really care about is the 3rd.

-david gable
tomdeacon
2006-04-24 23:37:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ian Pace
Just thought we could do with a different (and much smaller) list of cycles.
Fine, Ian.

But start your own thread, instead of highjacking this one.

TD
Ian Pace
2006-04-25 00:42:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by tomdeacon
Post by Ian Pace
Just thought we could do with a different (and much smaller) list of cycles.
Fine, Ian.
But start your own thread, instead of highjacking this one.
The thread title was changed. I know it will appear in the same thread on
Google Groups - but maybe there's no harm in those investigating Beethoven
cycles encountering by chance a discussion of Boulez Sonatas as well (they
can always skip it if not interested). After all, there are significant
connections, at least in my view.

Ian
tomdeacon
2006-04-25 01:32:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ian Pace
Post by tomdeacon
Post by Ian Pace
Just thought we could do with a different (and much smaller) list of cycles.
Fine, Ian.
But start your own thread, instead of highjacking this one.
The thread title was changed. I know it will appear in the same thread on
Google Groups - but maybe there's no harm in those investigating Beethoven
cycles encountering by chance a discussion of Boulez Sonatas as well (they
can always skip it if not interested). After all, there are significant
connections, at least in my view.
I didn't know you were a Fascist, Ian.

TD
tomdeacon
2006-04-24 23:37:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ian Pace
Just thought we could do with a different (and much smaller) list of cycles.
Fine, Ian.

But start your own thread, instead of highjacking this one.

TD
Eric Grunin
2006-04-25 20:58:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by tomdeacon
Post by Ian Pace
Just thought we could do with a different (and much smaller) list of cycles.
Fine, Ian.
But start your own thread, instead of highjacking this one.
It's not Ian's fault, it's Google Groups -- there's no reason not to
'branch' a thread by changing the title. Google should show it as a new
thread whenever the subject line changes, as many newsreaders do, or at
least give you a choice of how to view it.

Regards,
Eric Grunin
www.grunin.com/eroica

Jan Werner
2006-04-24 15:51:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by tomdeacon
Post by JohnGavin
Just wondering if the following pianists are persuing complete cycles
1) Garrick Ohlson
2) Maurizio Pollini
3) Ian Hobson
4) Andras Schiff
I believe all of the above have started what was promoted as complete
cycles, but I'd be interested to know if those projects are still
alive, and how far along they are.
Hobson completed his cycle. I own it.
Ohlsson has not, so far at least, completed his cycle. Is Arabesque
still active?
Don't know if he has completed recording them, but Ohlsson will be
performing the complete cycle in 8 concerts this summer at Tanglewood.

Jan Werner
--
***@NOSPAM.ORG
unknown
2006-04-23 17:39:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by JohnGavin
Just wondering if the following pianists are persuing complete cycles
1) Garrick Ohlson
2) Maurizio Pollini
3) Ian Hobson
4) Andras Schiff
I believe all of the above have started what was promoted as complete
cycles, but I'd be interested to know if those projects are still
alive, and how far along they are.
Just wondering if you are just interested in those four, or are more
generally interested in pianists who are doing the cycle and those just
happen to be the four that you know about. Paik, for example, is doing
them, also.

wr
JohnGavin
2006-04-23 18:17:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by unknown
Post by JohnGavin
Just wondering if the following pianists are persuing complete cycles
1) Garrick Ohlson
2) Maurizio Pollini
3) Ian Hobson
4) Andras Schiff
I believe all of the above have started what was promoted as complete
cycles, but I'd be interested to know if those projects are still
alive, and how far along they are.
Just wondering if you are just interested in those four, or are more
generally interested in pianists who are doing the cycle and those just
happen to be the four that you know about. Paik, for example, is doing
them, also.
wr
It's more a general interest in who is doing what - and whether or not
their projects are being completed. With the Beethoven cycle, in
particular there seem to be so many launchings in the past few years -
I'm interested if any of them are viewed as distinguished, or if any
particular sonatas stand out in any of the cycles. I believe there are
other completed cycles besides the ones mentioned - for example Alfredo
Perl. And, by the way....is anyone aware of whether Aldo Ciccolini
completed his?? It seems as if his volumes are already out-of-print.
I've never heard the set by Yves Nat.

I suppose what lies at the bottom of all this curiosity is the thought
of finding a compendium of the finest performances of each sonata, if
such a thing exists (i.e. I've never heard a Waldstein I liked more
than Gilels')
graham
2006-04-23 18:42:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by JohnGavin
Post by unknown
Post by JohnGavin
Just wondering if the following pianists are persuing complete cycles
1) Garrick Ohlson
2) Maurizio Pollini
3) Ian Hobson
4) Andras Schiff
I believe all of the above have started what was promoted as complete
cycles, but I'd be interested to know if those projects are still
alive, and how far along they are.
Just wondering if you are just interested in those four, or are more
generally interested in pianists who are doing the cycle and those just
happen to be the four that you know about. Paik, for example, is doing
them, also.
wr
It's more a general interest in who is doing what - and whether or not
their projects are being completed. With the Beethoven cycle, in
particular there seem to be so many launchings in the past few years -
I'm interested if any of them are viewed as distinguished, or if any
particular sonatas stand out in any of the cycles. I believe there are
other completed cycles besides the ones mentioned - for example Alfredo
Perl. And, by the way....is anyone aware of whether Aldo Ciccolini
completed his?? It seems as if his volumes are already out-of-print.
I've never heard the set by Yves Nat.
I suppose what lies at the bottom of all this curiosity is the thought
of finding a compendium of the finest performances of each sonata, if
such a thing exists (i.e. I've never heard a Waldstein I liked more
than Gilels')
Have you heard Hatto's?
Graham
JohnGavin
2006-04-23 18:47:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by graham
Post by JohnGavin
Post by unknown
Post by JohnGavin
Just wondering if the following pianists are persuing complete cycles
1) Garrick Ohlson
2) Maurizio Pollini
3) Ian Hobson
4) Andras Schiff
I believe all of the above have started what was promoted as complete
cycles, but I'd be interested to know if those projects are still
alive, and how far along they are.
Just wondering if you are just interested in those four, or are more
generally interested in pianists who are doing the cycle and those just
happen to be the four that you know about. Paik, for example, is doing
them, also.
wr
It's more a general interest in who is doing what - and whether or not
their projects are being completed. With the Beethoven cycle, in
particular there seem to be so many launchings in the past few years -
I'm interested if any of them are viewed as distinguished, or if any
particular sonatas stand out in any of the cycles. I believe there are
other completed cycles besides the ones mentioned - for example Alfredo
Perl. And, by the way....is anyone aware of whether Aldo Ciccolini
completed his?? It seems as if his volumes are already out-of-print.
I've never heard the set by Yves Nat.
I suppose what lies at the bottom of all this curiosity is the thought
of finding a compendium of the finest performances of each sonata, if
such a thing exists (i.e. I've never heard a Waldstein I liked more
than Gilels')
Have you heard Hatto's?
Graham
Not yet, but I'm VERY interested in her's.
tomdeacon
2006-04-23 19:00:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by JohnGavin
Post by graham
Have you heard Hatto's?
Graham
Not yet, but I'm VERY interested in her's.
As well you might.

But first of all, it is very expensive. Many CDs and only available -
at least for now - singly at about 12 pounds a piece. Not the avenue of
least resistance, it has to be admitted.

But once over the shock of the price, I think you will be very pleased,
indeed.

She holds onto the 18th C nature of Beethoven's first period for longer
than many others. Very classical. Until she gets to the real middle
period sonatas, the famous ones like the Appassionata and Waldstein,
and these are veritable humdingers in her hands. She, herself, is most
proud of her Hammerklavier, although I wondered in a note to her
whether she was truly comfortable with this music. I was summarily put
down, of course. Quite the contrary: it is her favourite of the
Beethoven recordings. Of course I am used to hearing that kind of thing
from artists, who often have different ideas of what they have done to
mine.

I have listened to them all more of less twice, and I want the time for
another round of listening before I settle completely on my impressions
of this cycle. In the meantime, I am listening to the early Decca cycle
by Friedrich Gulda. My, oh, my. What fingers that guy had!

Incidentally, John, the French critics have just gone ape-shit over the
release of his second cycle, for Amadeo, which appeared at one time on
the Philips label in a boxed set. It has been reissued now at a lower
price and you would think that they had all drunk from the fountain of
truth, or something. Gaga, is one way of putting it. Suppose I shall
have to listen to that one again too. But I am not Andrew Grimshaw, who
seems to have an insatiable appetite for Beethoven cycles. And then, I
haven't heard the Dieter Zechlin or Robert Riefling cycle recently
either.

TD
Richard Sauer
2006-04-23 20:40:42 UTC
Permalink
John Gavin wroe:

And, by the way....is anyone aware of whether Aldo Ciccolini
completed his?? It seems as if his volumes are already out-of-print.

Ciccolini recorded all 32 sonatas for Bongiovanni. The set is out-of-print,
and Bongiovanni sold the rights to set to some record company.. In the
Bongiovanni cycle he plays a Steinway. For Nuova Era, Ciccolini only
recorded the late sonatas on a Fazioli. The Nuova Era set was recorded in
Bolzano in 1989 and it too is OOP, which is just as well since the set was
plagued with bronzing . The Bongiovanni was recorded in the late 90's...



Rich
Vaneyes
2006-04-24 16:05:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by JohnGavin
And, by the way....is anyone aware of whether Aldo Ciccolini
completed his?? It seems as if his volumes are already out-of-print.
Ciccolini recorded all 32 sonatas for Bongiovanni. The set is out-of-print,
and Bongiovanni sold the rights to set to some record company.. In the
Bongiovanni cycle he plays a Steinway. For Nuova Era, Ciccolini only
recorded the late sonatas on a Fazioli. The Nuova Era set was recorded in
Bolzano in 1989 and it too is OOP, which is just as well since the set was
plagued with bronzing . The Bongiovanni was recorded in the late 90's...
Re LvB Piano Sonata Cycles, this link may help some. The list
supposedly has update possibilities, so if interested, mail its author.

http://www.albany.edu/~rshaf/beethoven32.html

Regards
tomdeacon
2006-04-24 16:18:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by JohnGavin
And, by the way....is anyone aware of whether Aldo Ciccolini
completed his?? It seems as if his volumes are already out-of-print.
Ciccolini recorded all 32 sonatas for Bongiovanni. The set is out-of-print,
and Bongiovanni sold the rights to set to some record company.. In the
Bongiovanni cycle he plays a Steinway. For Nuova Era, Ciccolini only
recorded the late sonatas on a Fazioli. The Nuova Era set was recorded in
Bolzano in 1989 and it too is OOP, which is just as well since the set was
plagued with bronzing . The Bongiovanni was recorded in the late 90's...
Ciccolini recorded them all for Bongiovanni.

So did Robert Silverman.

I don't own either.

TD
Richard Sauer
2006-04-24 18:35:27 UTC
Permalink
Takahiro Sonoda ( a pupil of Leo Sirota) recorded all 32 for the EVICA
label.
Has anyone heard it??

Rich>
tomdeacon
2006-04-24 16:23:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Vaneyes
Re LvB Piano Sonata Cycles, this link may help some. The list
supposedly has update possibilities, so if interested, mail its author.
http://www.albany.edu/~rshaf/beethoven32.html
An interesting list.

The Dieter Zechlin cannot be from 1990, I would think, as I purchased
my set of LPs in Berlin in 1970!!! Unless he rerecorded them all, of
course. That would add to the total number.

TD
Paul Ilechko
2006-04-23 20:06:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by JohnGavin
I suppose what lies at the bottom of all this curiosity is the thought
of finding a compendium of the finest performances of each sonata, if
such a thing exists (i.e. I've never heard a Waldstein I liked more
than Gilels')
I find that to be generally true of most of the sonatas that Gilels
recorded ;-)
JohnGavin
2006-04-23 20:12:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul Ilechko
Post by JohnGavin
I suppose what lies at the bottom of all this curiosity is the thought
of finding a compendium of the finest performances of each sonata, if
such a thing exists (i.e. I've never heard a Waldstein I liked more
than Gilels')
I find that to be generally true of most of the sonatas that Gilels
recorded ;-)
No question, Gilels was magnificent, and well-seasoned by the time he
did this cycle. I still haven't quite warmed up to his Hammerklavier,
however, but it will get many more listens from me. I gravitate more
towards the streamlined athleticism of Pollini in op 106, but who
knows, minds can be changed :)
Alan Cooper
2006-04-23 20:52:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by JohnGavin
Post by Paul Ilechko
Post by JohnGavin
I suppose what lies at the bottom of all this curiosity is the thought
of finding a compendium of the finest performances of each sonata, if
such a thing exists (i.e. I've never heard a Waldstein I liked more
than Gilels')
I find that to be generally true of most of the sonatas that Gilels
recorded ;-)
No question, Gilels was magnificent, and well-seasoned by the time he
did this cycle. I still haven't quite warmed up to his Hammerklavier,
however, but it will get many more listens from me. I gravitate more
towards the streamlined athleticism of Pollini in op 106, but who
knows, minds can be changed :)
You've tried Gilels' live Hammerklavier on Brilliant? If that doesn't
do it for you, you'll have to look elsewhere.

AC
Alex Panda
2006-04-23 20:53:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by unknown
Just wondering if you are just interested in those four, or are more
generally interested in pianists who are doing the cycle and those just
happen to be the four that you know about. Paik, for example, is doing
them, also.
Also Brautigam on fortepiano (and SACD):

http://www.sa-cd.net/showtitle/2503
f***@hotmail.com
2006-04-24 07:48:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alex Panda
http://www.sa-cd.net/showtitle/2503
I'm sampling this cycle and so far have got the first two volumes. I am
very much impressed indeed - his McNulty copy after Walter is a
gorgeous sounding instrument. Basses really black and full, and a truly
rich sonority in the upper range as well.

Makes for highly rewarding listening - his bass tremolos sound really
thunderous, just dramatic, dark, big stormy clouds of sound. Nothing
resembling any Beechamite skeletons here!

I also like his playing very much - straightforward, high impetus, but
he also takes liberties with his tempo where appropriate. At some
moments (second subject of the Pathetique e.g.) he can sound a little
driven and unrelenting, while at other spots he can almost seem lost to
some romantic daydreaming. But most of the time his playing most
resembles Gulda's, but alone the rich sound of hist McNulty fortepiano
changes these pieces to something immensely more dramatic.

YMMV of course, as I tend to "get" (or not...) music mainly over it's
"sound".

I have Kempff stereo, Backhaus stereo (with Hammerklavier mono), Gulda
(second cycle) and the Gilels set. So far Brautigam gave me the more
satisfying readings of the pieces he already has recorded (as for the
Pathetique, he left - for me - the aforementioned in the dust as well
as Horowitz (CBS) and Rubinstein (60s recording).

The recording also does justice to his instrument and approach, which
is no small compliment for BIS - recording a fortepiano seems to be
even more difficult than recording a modern grand.

Kind greetings,
Floor
MrT
2006-04-24 07:52:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by f***@hotmail.com
Post by Alex Panda
http://www.sa-cd.net/showtitle/2503
I'm sampling this cycle and so far have got the first two volumes. I am
very much impressed indeed - his McNulty copy after Walter is a
gorgeous sounding instrument. Basses really black and full, and a truly
rich sonority in the upper range as well.
I have not heard his Beethoven, but his Mozart set (also on BIS) is
superb. I keep going back to it, as I do not with other sets I used to
like a lot. Brautigam is a hell of a musician. And yes, the BIS
engineering is top-notch. So it can be done... (hint to Decca).

Best,

MrT
Paul Goldstein
2006-04-24 14:27:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by MrT
Post by f***@hotmail.com
Post by Alex Panda
http://www.sa-cd.net/showtitle/2503
I'm sampling this cycle and so far have got the first two volumes. I am
very much impressed indeed - his McNulty copy after Walter is a
gorgeous sounding instrument. Basses really black and full, and a truly
rich sonority in the upper range as well.
I have not heard his Beethoven, but his Mozart set (also on BIS) is
superb. I keep going back to it, as I do not with other sets I used to
like a lot. Brautigam is a hell of a musician. And yes, the BIS
engineering is top-notch. So it can be done... (hint to Decca).
Brautigam's Haydn sonatas are also first-rate.
--
NewsGuy.Com 30Gb $9.95 Carry Forward and On Demand Bandwidth
Simon Roberts
2006-04-23 23:45:01 UTC
Permalink
In article <***@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>, JohnGavin
says...
Post by JohnGavin
Just wondering if the following pianists are persuing complete cycles
1) Garrick Ohlson
2) Maurizio Pollini
3) Ian Hobson
4) Andras Schiff
I believe all of the above have started what was promoted as complete
cycles, but I'd be interested to know if those projects are still
alive, and how far along they are.
Don't know re 1 and 2, but 3 was completed several years ago and released on two
different labels (dully competent if the two discs I tried are representative)
and the booklet to the second installment of 4 gives a projected completion date
for the whole series (I forget what it is; the disc is in my office, so I can't
check), which suggests that at least when that was written those concerned
expected completion.

Simon
--
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n***@thump.org
2006-04-24 07:01:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by JohnGavin
Just wondering if the following pianists are persuing complete cycles
1) Garrick Ohlson
2) Maurizio Pollini
3) Ian Hobson
4) Andras Schiff
Schiff is working on a cycle. I heard op 2/1 and was very impressed
with it.
Ward Hardman
2006-04-25 04:41:00 UTC
Permalink
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