Discussion:
Philadelphia Orchestra downloads at Amazon - what to choose?
(too old to reply)
The Historian
2010-03-27 15:18:42 UTC
Permalink
Any recommendations among the 30 or so Philadelphia Orchestra
downloads now available on Amazon? I'm downloading Milanov's
Shostakovich 15th now.
Phlmaestro
2010-03-28 03:28:03 UTC
Permalink
On Mar 27, 11:18 am, The Historian <***@gmail.com>
wrote:
> Any recommendations among the 30 or so Philadelphia Orchestra
> downloads now available on Amazon? I'm downloading Milanov's
> Shostakovich 15th now.
>

First, if you don't know already, and sound quality is important to
you, you can find those same downloads in Flac here:
https://www.hdtracks.com/index.php?file=artistdetail&id=8803

As far as what to get, I recommend the Shostakovich 5th and Bruckner
5th with Sawallisch conducting. Also, while I've received at least one
strong counter-opinion on here when it's come up in the past, I think
the single strongest performance I heard from Eschenbach in his years
in Philadelphia (I attended probably two-thirds to three-quarters of
his programs) was the Eroica. I don't think the performance they have
available for download was one of the two I attended, but it's still
very good IMO.

Barry
3Bs
2010-03-28 15:13:23 UTC
Permalink
On Mar 27, 10:28 pm, Phlmaestro <***@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Mar 27, 11:18 am, The Historian <***@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > Any recommendations among the 30 or so Philadelphia Orchestra
> > downloads now available on Amazon? I'm downloading Milanov's
> > Shostakovich 15th now.
>
> First, if you don't know already, and sound quality is important to
> you, you can find those same downloads in Flac here:https://www.hdtracks.com/index.php?file=artistdetail&id=8803
>
> As far as what to get, I recommend the Shostakovich 5th and Bruckner
> 5th with Sawallisch conducting. Also, while I've received at least one
> strong counter-opinion on here when it's come up in the past, I think
> the single strongest performance I heard from Eschenbach in his years
> in Philadelphia (I attended probably two-thirds to three-quarters of
> his programs) was the Eroica. I don't think the performance they have
> available for download was one of the two I attended, but it's still
> very good IMO.
>
> Barry

FWIW, Sawallisch's Bavarian RSO Bruckner 5 on Orfeo has a more
aggressive 4th-movement finale, one of the best I have heard. The
Philly one eases up on the momentum and becomes a bit more rhetorical.
The more aggressive approach is a relative rarity, but is one I
strongly prefer. The Philly recording has its pleasures, of course.
Sol L. Siegel
2010-03-28 18:01:04 UTC
Permalink
3Bs <***@aol.com> wrote in
news:99ac1671-56ee-4059-a6d2-***@k19g2000yqn.googlegroups.com:

> On Mar 27, 10:28 pm, Phlmaestro <***@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> On Mar 27, 11:18 am, The Historian <***@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> > Any recommendations among the 30 or so Philadelphia Orchestra
>> > downloads now available on Amazon?

Aside from the aforementioned Sawallisch Bruckner 5 and Shostakovich 5
(an especially fine finale here) and Eschenbach Eroica (the only
distinguised performance in his Beethoven cycle IMO), there's the WP of
Higdon's Concerto for Orchestra and the odd coupling of Hindemith's
Concert Music for Strings and Brass and the Dvorak Op. 72 Slavonic
Dances. The Dvorak performance was amazing, particularly the slow final
dance, which is extraordinarily moving. Sawallisch's nearly hour-long
Schubert Great C Major (his last performance with the Orchestra) is also
worth a listen.

Alas, those items that used to be available from the Orchestra's big
historical box via their own website, like the Martinu 4 with Sawallisch
and Shostakovich 6 with Ormandy, aren't any more.

> FWIW, Sawallisch's Bavarian RSO Bruckner 5 on Orfeo has a more
> aggressive 4th-movement finale, one of the best I have heard. The
> Philly one eases up on the momentum and becomes a bit more rhetorical.
> The more aggressive approach is a relative rarity, but is one I
> strongly prefer. The Philly recording has its pleasures, of course.

Definitely a case of YMMV. I thought the Orfeo performance a
disappointment and culled it even before I heard the Philly concert -
and scarcely believed what I was hearing. It was the first thing I
downloaded after I finally got DSL, and I haven't changed my opinion.
(I still have his Orfeo 1 & 6; the 1st remains my favorite version.)

--
- Sol L. Siegel, Philadelphia, PA USA
Phlmaestro
2010-03-28 19:27:06 UTC
Permalink
On Mar 28, 2:01 pm, "Sol L. Siegel" <***@aol.com> wrote:
>  Sawallisch's nearly hour-long
> Schubert Great C Major (his last performance with the Orchestra) is also
> worth a listen.
>

I still remember how much I loved that performance. I had a cold and
skipped the pre-intermission portion of the program because I didn't
think I could sit through the entire concert without making noise, but
there was no way I was going to miss that Schubert.

As with the Bruckner 5, which was from the previous season,
Sawallisch's Schubert 9th is not aggressive. And I thought Sawallisch
held back the brass too much at times. But the phrasing and the
overall structure of the performance was so sophisticated. It was a
real pleasure to experience it.

Probably not surprisingly, I don't think that what I liked so much
about the performance comes through quite as well in the recording as
it did in person. But I still treasure it for that memory and because
it was the last time I saw Sawallisch conduct.
M forever
2010-03-28 19:36:40 UTC
Permalink
On Mar 28, 2:01 pm, "Sol L. Siegel" <***@aol.com> wrote:
> 3Bs <***@aol.com> wrote innews:99ac1671-56ee-4059-a6d2-***@k19g2000yqn.googlegroups.com:
>
> > On Mar 27, 10:28 pm, Phlmaestro <***@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >> On Mar 27, 11:18 am, The Historian <***@gmail.com>
> >> wrote:
>
> >> > Any recommendations among the 30 or so Philadelphia Orchestra
> >> > downloads now available on Amazon?
>
> Aside from the aforementioned Sawallisch Bruckner 5 and Shostakovich 5
> (an especially fine finale here) and Eschenbach Eroica (the only
> distinguised performance in his Beethoven cycle IMO), there's the WP of
> Higdon's Concerto for Orchestra and the odd coupling of Hindemith's
> Concert Music for Strings and Brass and the Dvorak Op. 72 Slavonic
> Dances.  The Dvorak performance was amazing, particularly the slow final
> dance, which is extraordinarily moving.  Sawallisch's nearly hour-long
> Schubert Great C Major (his last performance with the Orchestra) is also
> worth a listen.
>
> Alas, those items that used to be available from the Orchestra's big
> historical box via their own website, like the Martinu 4 with Sawallisch
> and Shostakovich 6 with Ormandy, aren't any more.
>
> > FWIW, Sawallisch's Bavarian RSO Bruckner 5 on Orfeo has a more
> > aggressive 4th-movement finale, one of the best I have heard. The
> > Philly one eases up on the momentum and becomes a bit more rhetorical.
> > The more aggressive approach is a relative rarity, but is one I
> > strongly prefer. The Philly recording has its pleasures, of course.
>
> Definitely a case of YMMV.  I thought the Orfeo performance a
> disappointment and culled it

That's probably because the recording, as on the other Orfeo
recordings of Sawallisch conducting Bruckner, is a little distant and
"indirect". It takes a little while getting used to it but it's
actually a nice sonic perspective, kind of like in a concert hall from
row 20 or so rather than "in your face". A pity you immediately
"culled" it because musically and orchestrally, it is a very good
performance.

> even before I heard the Philly concert -
> and scarcely believed what I was hearing.  It was the first thing I
> downloaded after I finally got DSL, and I haven't changed my opinion.  
> (I still have his Orfeo 1 & 6; the 1st remains my favorite version.)
>
> --
> - Sol L. Siegel, Philadelphia, PA USA
Sol L. Siegel
2010-03-29 03:15:35 UTC
Permalink
M forever <***@gmail.com> wrote in
news:33742d1d-c978-4744-891a-***@j21g2000yqh.googlegroups.com:

>> > FWIW, Sawallisch's Bavarian RSO Bruckner 5 on Orfeo has a more
>> > aggressive 4th-movement finale, one of the best I have heard. The
>> > Philly one eases up on the momentum and becomes a bit more
>> > rhetorical. The more aggressive approach is a relative rarity, but
>> > is one I strongly prefer. The Philly recording has its pleasures,
>> > of course.
>>
>> Definitely a case of YMMV.  I thought the Orfeo performance a
>> disappointment and culled it
>
> That's probably because the recording, as on the other Orfeo
> recordings of Sawallisch conducting Bruckner, is a little distant and
> "indirect". It takes a little while getting used to it but it's
> actually a nice sonic perspective, kind of like in a concert hall from
> row 20 or so rather than "in your face". A pity you immediately
> "culled" it because musically and orchestrally, it is a very good
> performance.

Not immediately - what I meant in my post was that I had culled it (after
several listens) at some point before hearing the 2004 concert, as opposed
to culling it as a result of hearing and later downloading it. Today, of
course, I might think differently...

Oddly, the item now appears to be so OOP in the US that US Amazon doesn't
even acknowledge its past existence. UK sources still have it, though.

--
- Sol L. Siegel, Philadelphia, PA USA
The Historian
2010-03-30 14:18:31 UTC
Permalink
On Mar 28, 2:01 pm, "Sol L. Siegel" <***@aol.com> wrote:
> 3Bs <***@aol.com> wrote innews:99ac1671-56ee-4059-a6d2-***@k19g2000yqn.googlegroups.com:
>
> > On Mar 27, 10:28 pm, Phlmaestro <***@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >> On Mar 27, 11:18 am, The Historian <***@gmail.com>
> >> wrote:
>
> >> > Any recommendations among the 30 or so Philadelphia Orchestra
> >> > downloads now available on Amazon?
>
> Aside from the aforementioned Sawallisch Bruckner 5 and Shostakovich 5
> (an especially fine finale here) and Eschenbach Eroica (the only
> distinguised performance in his Beethoven cycle IMO), there's the WP of
> Higdon's Concerto for Orchestra and the odd coupling of Hindemith's
> Concert Music for Strings and Brass and the Dvorak Op. 72 Slavonic
> Dances.  The Dvorak performance was amazing, particularly the slow final
> dance, which is extraordinarily moving.  Sawallisch's nearly hour-long
> Schubert Great C Major (his last performance with the Orchestra) is also
> worth a listen.

Good call. The Dvorak was a wonderful performance.The Schubert struck
me as good, but not brassy enough.

> Alas, those items that used to be available from the Orchestra's big
> historical box via their own website, like the Martinu 4 with Sawallisch
> and Shostakovich 6 with Ormandy, aren't any more.
>
> > FWIW, Sawallisch's Bavarian RSO Bruckner 5 on Orfeo has a more
> > aggressive 4th-movement finale, one of the best I have heard. The
> > Philly one eases up on the momentum and becomes a bit more rhetorical.
> > The more aggressive approach is a relative rarity, but is one I
> > strongly prefer. The Philly recording has its pleasures, of course.
>
> Definitely a case of YMMV.  I thought the Orfeo performance a
> disappointment and culled it even before I heard the Philly concert -
> and scarcely believed what I was hearing.  It was the first thing I
> downloaded after I finally got DSL, and I haven't changed my opinion.  
> (I still have his Orfeo 1 & 6; the 1st remains my favorite version.)
>
> --
> - Sol L. Siegel, Philadelphia, PA USA
Phlmaestro
2010-03-31 13:58:44 UTC
Permalink
On Mar 28, 2:01 pm, "Sol L. Siegel" <***@aol.com> wrote:
> ... the Dvorak Op. 72 Slavonic
> Dances.  The Dvorak performance was amazing, particularly the slow final
> dance, which is extraordinarily moving.  
> --
> - Sol L. Siegel, Philadelphia, PA USA
>

I downloaded and listened to these for the first time since attending
the concert and you're right about them. They really are gorgeous.
M forever
2010-03-28 19:34:15 UTC
Permalink
On Mar 28, 11:13 am, 3Bs <***@aol.com> wrote:
> On Mar 27, 10:28 pm, Phlmaestro <***@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Mar 27, 11:18 am, The Historian <***@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
>
> > > Any recommendations among the 30 or so Philadelphia Orchestra
> > > downloads now available on Amazon? I'm downloading Milanov's
> > > Shostakovich 15th now.
>
> > First, if you don't know already, and sound quality is important to
> > you, you can find those same downloads in Flac here:https://www.hdtracks.com/index.php?file=artistdetail&id=8803
>
> > As far as what to get, I recommend the Shostakovich 5th and Bruckner
> > 5th with Sawallisch conducting. Also, while I've received at least one
> > strong counter-opinion on here when it's come up in the past, I think
> > the single strongest performance I heard from Eschenbach in his years
> > in Philadelphia (I attended probably two-thirds to three-quarters of
> > his programs) was the Eroica. I don't think the performance they have
> > available for download was one of the two I attended, but it's still
> > very good IMO.
>
> > Barry
>
> FWIW, Sawallisch's Bavarian RSO Bruckner 5 on Orfeo

That's actually the Bayerisches Staatsorchester, the orchestra of the
opera in Munich where Sawallisch was MD for many years. He also
recorded 1,6, and 9 with the same orchestra for Orfeo, all very
stylish performances. The 9th got very positive reviews in one of my
blind listening games here and on another forum.

> has a more
> aggressive 4th-movement finale, one of the best I have heard. The
> Philly one eases up on the momentum and becomes a bit more rhetorical.
> The more aggressive approach is a relative rarity, but is one I
> strongly prefer. The Philly recording has its pleasures, of course.
3Bs
2010-03-29 14:26:05 UTC
Permalink
On Mar 28, 2:34 pm, M forever <***@gmail.com> wrote:
> That's actually the Bayerisches Staatsorchester, the orchestra of the
> opera in Munich where Sawallisch was MD for many years. He also
> recorded 1,6, and 9 with the same orchestra for Orfeo, all very
> stylish performances. The 9th got very positive reviews in one of my
> blind listening games here and on another forum.

Ack- I can't believe I never noticed that. I now have a big, big
problem to clean up in my iTunes library.
M forever
2010-03-29 15:08:13 UTC
Permalink
On Mar 29, 10:26 am, 3Bs <***@aol.com> wrote:
> On Mar 28, 2:34 pm, M forever <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > That's actually the Bayerisches Staatsorchester, the orchestra of the
> > opera in Munich where Sawallisch was MD for many years. He also
> > recorded 1,6, and 9 with the same orchestra for Orfeo, all very
> > stylish performances. The 9th got very positive reviews in one of my
> > blind listening games here and on another forum.
>
> Ack- I can't believe I never noticed that. I now have a big, big
> problem to clean up in my iTunes library.

It can get a little confusing - Munich alone has 4 orchestras:
Münchner Philharmoniker, Bayerisches Staatsorchester,
Symphonieorchester des Bayerischen Rundfunks, and the lesser known and
smaller other orchestra of the BR, Münchner Rundfunkorchester which
plays mostly "light classics" and educational concerts for schools
etc.

It shouldn't be that big of a problem though - you can mark all the
tracks in your iTunes library and right-click to "get info". It will
ask you if you really want to edit multiple items, and if you confirm,
you can edit the "artist" or any other field for all the selected
tracks at the same time. Only selected fields will get edited, so if
you just change the artist information, it will not change the track
numbers and titles or any other information, unless you select and
edit it. It's actually quite easy and quick.
The Historian
2010-03-30 03:41:44 UTC
Permalink
On Mar 27, 11:28 pm, Phlmaestro <***@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Mar 27, 11:18 am, The Historian <***@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > Any recommendations among the 30 or so Philadelphia Orchestra
> > downloads now available on Amazon? I'm downloading Milanov's
> > Shostakovich 15th now.
>
> First, if you don't know already, and sound quality is important to
> you, you can find those same downloads in Flac here:https://www.hdtracks.com/index.php?file=artistdetail&id=8803
>
> As far as what to get, I recommend the Shostakovich 5th and Bruckner
> 5th with Sawallisch conducting. Also, while I've received at least one
> strong counter-opinion on here when it's come up in the past, I think
> the single strongest performance I heard from Eschenbach in his years
> in Philadelphia (I attended probably two-thirds to three-quarters of
> his programs) was the Eroica. I don't think the performance they have
> available for download was one of the two I attended, but it's still
> very good IMO.
>
> Barry

Listening to the Eroica now. Good first movement, and a powerful
funeral march. The scherzo is good but slightly rushed. Muti's Eroica
was one of the high points of his mid-1980s cycle. I should pull it
out and compare the two. Both are better than Ormandy's digital
recording from 1979, which was probably conducted on auto-pilot.

Heard the Shostakovich concertos with Stewart Goodyear earlier today,
both very nicely done but lacking the last bit of wit that would put
them up there with Bernstein in the second or List in both.
Phlmaestro
2010-03-30 04:14:13 UTC
Permalink
On Mar 29, 11:41 pm, The Historian <***@gmail.com>
wrote:
>
> Listening to the Eroica now. Good first movement, and a powerful
> funeral march. The scherzo is good but slightly rushed. Muti's Eroica
> was one of the high points of his mid-1980s cycle. I should pull it
> out and compare the two. Both are better than Ormandy's digital
> recording from 1979, which was probably conducted on auto-pilot.
>


I would definitely take the Eschenbach Eroica over Muti's Philadelphia
recording. But I don't agree that the Eroica was a high point of that
cycle. Numbers 4, 7 and 9 are my favorites from it.

Sawallisch led an outstanding performance of the Eroica here, I
believe in the spring of 2001 (and then took it on tour). It would be
nice if more of his stuff from around 8-12 years ago would be released
for download.
The Historian
2010-03-30 14:13:40 UTC
Permalink
On Mar 30, 12:14 am, Phlmaestro <***@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Mar 29, 11:41 pm, The Historian <***@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>
>
> > Listening to the Eroica now. Good first movement, and a powerful
> > funeral march. The scherzo is good but slightly rushed. Muti's Eroica
> > was one of the high points of his mid-1980s cycle. I should pull it
> > out and compare the two. Both are better than Ormandy's digital
> > recording from 1979, which was probably conducted on auto-pilot.
>
> I would definitely take the Eschenbach Eroica over Muti's Philadelphia
> recording. But I don't agree that the Eroica was a high point of that
> cycle. Numbers 4, 7 and 9 are my favorites from it.

I like Muti's 3, 6, and 9 from the cycle. Many of the others are
overdriven - in other words, typical Muti.

Anything else worth hearing in the Eschenbach cycle? I have the 8th,
which strikes me as well-done. Certainly better than Muti's rush
through it.

> Sawallisch led an outstanding performance of the Eroica here, I
> believe in the spring of 2001 (and then took it on tour). It would be
> nice if more of his stuff from around 8-12 years ago would be released
> for download.
Phlmaestro
2010-03-30 15:30:49 UTC
Permalink
On Mar 30, 10:13 am, The Historian <***@gmail.com>
wrote:
> On Mar 30, 12:14 am, Phlmaestro <***@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > On Mar 29, 11:41 pm, The Historian <***@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
>
> > > Listening to the Eroica now. Good first movement, and a powerful
> > > funeral march. The scherzo is good but slightly rushed. Muti's Eroica
> > > was one of the high points of his mid-1980s cycle. I should pull it
> > > out and compare the two. Both are better than Ormandy's digital
> > > recording from 1979, which was probably conducted on auto-pilot.
>
> > I would definitely take the Eschenbach Eroica over Muti's Philadelphia
> > recording. But I don't agree that the Eroica was a high point of that
> > cycle. Numbers 4, 7 and 9 are my favorites from it.
>
> I like Muti's 3, 6, and 9 from the cycle. Many of the others are
> overdriven - in other words, typical Muti.
>
> Anything else worth hearing in the Eschenbach cycle? I have the 8th,
> which strikes me as well-done. Certainly better than Muti's rush
> through it.
>

I'm pretty sure I saw him conduct all nine symphonies live, and while
none of them stood out as being aweful, the only one that made a
strong enough impression to get me to buy the download was the Eroica.
But it seems like you and I disagree on the Muti cycle (I listened to
the disc with 7 and 8 the other night and enjoyed it a lot), so I'm
not sure my taste in Beethoven would be a good guide for you.

Eschenbach's live Ondine recording of the Tchaikovsky 6th is very good
if that's available for download.
M forever
2010-03-30 17:41:34 UTC
Permalink
On Mar 30, 11:30 am, Phlmaestro <***@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Mar 30, 10:13 am, The Historian <***@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Mar 30, 12:14 am, Phlmaestro <***@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > > On Mar 29, 11:41 pm, The Historian <***@gmail.com>
> > > wrote:
>
> > > > Listening to the Eroica now. Good first movement, and a powerful
> > > > funeral march. The scherzo is good but slightly rushed. Muti's Eroica
> > > > was one of the high points of his mid-1980s cycle. I should pull it
> > > > out and compare the two. Both are better than Ormandy's digital
> > > > recording from 1979, which was probably conducted on auto-pilot.
>
> > > I would definitely take the Eschenbach Eroica over Muti's Philadelphia
> > > recording. But I don't agree that the Eroica was a high point of that
> > > cycle. Numbers 4, 7 and 9 are my favorites from it.
>
> > I like Muti's 3, 6, and 9 from the cycle. Many of the others are
> > overdriven - in other words, typical Muti.
>
> > Anything else worth hearing in the Eschenbach cycle? I have the 8th,
> > which strikes me as well-done. Certainly better than Muti's rush
> > through it.
>
> I'm pretty sure I saw him conduct all nine symphonies live, and while
> none of them stood out as being aweful, the only one that made a
> strong enough impression to get me to buy the download was the Eroica.
> But it seems like you and I disagree on the Muti cycle (I listened to
> the disc with 7 and 8 the other night and enjoyed it a lot), so I'm
> not sure my taste in Beethoven would be a good guide for you.

For me, the whole Muti cyclehas no highlights or low points. I think
it is generally very well played and musically very straightforward,
tightly controlled by Muti, but beyond that, it has remarkably little
features or qualities of any kind. It is consistently mediocre and
unremarkable in really any way. I did kind of enjoy listening to it
once though because of the basically quite nice, polished, rounded
off, slightly dark sound Muti gets from the orchestra. I also heard
them play the 5th live in Berlin back then which was a nice concert
but again nothing special. Muti has that talent to make things very
high end and mediocre at the same time. His Schubert cycle is amazing
in that respect - only Muti could make the WP play Schubert so
mechanically and stiffly!
Phlmaestro
2010-03-30 18:33:10 UTC
Permalink
On Mar 30, 1:41 pm, M forever <***@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Mar 30, 11:30 am, Phlmaestro <***@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Mar 30, 10:13 am, The Historian <***@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
>
> > > On Mar 30, 12:14 am, Phlmaestro <***@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > > > On Mar 29, 11:41 pm, The Historian <***@gmail.com>
> > > > wrote:
>
> > > > > Listening to the Eroica now. Good first movement, and a powerful
> > > > > funeral march. The scherzo is good but slightly rushed. Muti's Eroica
> > > > > was one of the high points of his mid-1980s cycle. I should pull it
> > > > > out and compare the two. Both are better than Ormandy's digital
> > > > > recording from 1979, which was probably conducted on auto-pilot.
>
> > > > I would definitely take the Eschenbach Eroica over Muti's Philadelphia
> > > > recording. But I don't agree that the Eroica was a high point of that
> > > > cycle. Numbers 4, 7 and 9 are my favorites from it.
>
> > > I like Muti's 3, 6, and 9 from the cycle. Many of the others are
> > > overdriven - in other words, typical Muti.
>
> > > Anything else worth hearing in the Eschenbach cycle? I have the 8th,
> > > which strikes me as well-done. Certainly better than Muti's rush
> > > through it.
>
> > I'm pretty sure I saw him conduct all nine symphonies live, and while
> > none of them stood out as being aweful, the only one that made a
> > strong enough impression to get me to buy the download was the Eroica.
> > But it seems like you and I disagree on the Muti cycle (I listened to
> > the disc with 7 and 8 the other night and enjoyed it a lot), so I'm
> > not sure my taste in Beethoven would be a good guide for you.
>
> For me, the whole Muti cyclehas no highlights or low points. I think
> it is generally very well played and musically very straightforward,
> tightly controlled by Muti, but beyond that, it has remarkably little
> features or qualities of any kind. It is consistently mediocre and
> unremarkable in really any way. I did kind of enjoy listening to it
> once though because of the basically quite nice, polished, rounded
> off, slightly dark sound Muti gets from the orchestra. I also heard
> them play the 5th live in Berlin back then which was a nice concert
> but again nothing special. Muti has that talent to make things very
> high end and mediocre at the same time. His Schubert cycle is amazing
> in that respect - only Muti could make the WP play Schubert so
> mechanically and stiffly!- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
>

While I obviously don't quite agree with you on the Beethoven cycle
(at least in its entirety; I do for some of it), I think your
description is a pretty good fit for his tenure in Philadelphia. Over
a period of a dozen years - more if you include the recordings he made
before he took over for Ormandy - there were obviously a number of
exceptions to the rule; including a few in that Beethoven cycle IMO.
But I started going to concerts about midway through his tenure here,
and I can honestly say that not a single concert I saw him lead stands
out in my memory as being really outstanding. The orchestra played
very well for him, but from an interpretive standpoint, nothing really
stood out. And the orchestra sounded more generic than they did both
before and after his tenures (especially before, but I noticed a
change for what I thought was the better in the "sound" the orchestra
was putting out almost immediately when Sawallisch took over).

I've mentioned on here before that I get the impression from a few
more recent performances of his that I've heard, that Muti has matured
somewhat and is a better conductor today than he was during the 80s
and 90s. I guess we'll get a better idea when some of his CSO live
recordings start to come out.
M forever
2010-03-30 21:03:44 UTC
Permalink
On Mar 30, 2:33 pm, Phlmaestro <***@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Mar 30, 1:41 pm, M forever <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Mar 30, 11:30 am, Phlmaestro <***@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > > On Mar 30, 10:13 am, The Historian <***@gmail.com>
> > > wrote:
>
> > > > On Mar 30, 12:14 am, Phlmaestro <***@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > On Mar 29, 11:41 pm, The Historian <***@gmail.com>
> > > > > wrote:
>
> > > > > > Listening to the Eroica now. Good first movement, and a powerful
> > > > > > funeral march. The scherzo is good but slightly rushed. Muti's Eroica
> > > > > > was one of the high points of his mid-1980s cycle. I should pull it
> > > > > > out and compare the two. Both are better than Ormandy's digital
> > > > > > recording from 1979, which was probably conducted on auto-pilot.
>
> > > > > I would definitely take the Eschenbach Eroica over Muti's Philadelphia
> > > > > recording. But I don't agree that the Eroica was a high point of that
> > > > > cycle. Numbers 4, 7 and 9 are my favorites from it.
>
> > > > I like Muti's 3, 6, and 9 from the cycle. Many of the others are
> > > > overdriven - in other words, typical Muti.
>
> > > > Anything else worth hearing in the Eschenbach cycle? I have the 8th,
> > > > which strikes me as well-done. Certainly better than Muti's rush
> > > > through it.
>
> > > I'm pretty sure I saw him conduct all nine symphonies live, and while
> > > none of them stood out as being aweful, the only one that made a
> > > strong enough impression to get me to buy the download was the Eroica.
> > > But it seems like you and I disagree on the Muti cycle (I listened to
> > > the disc with 7 and 8 the other night and enjoyed it a lot), so I'm
> > > not sure my taste in Beethoven would be a good guide for you.
>
> > For me, the whole Muti cyclehas no highlights or low points. I think
> > it is generally very well played and musically very straightforward,
> > tightly controlled by Muti, but beyond that, it has remarkably little
> > features or qualities of any kind. It is consistently mediocre and
> > unremarkable in really any way. I did kind of enjoy listening to it
> > once though because of the basically quite nice, polished, rounded
> > off, slightly dark sound Muti gets from the orchestra. I also heard
> > them play the 5th live in Berlin back then which was a nice concert
> > but again nothing special. Muti has that talent to make things very
> > high end and mediocre at the same time. His Schubert cycle is amazing
> > in that respect - only Muti could make the WP play Schubert so
> > mechanically and stiffly!- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> While I obviously don't quite agree with you on the Beethoven cycle
> (at least in its entirety; I do for some of it),

What merits do you find in the Beethoven cycle that I missed? For
instance, in the 4th symphony to which I re-listened just now,
inspired bu this discussion. I think it's a very solid, but also
mechanical and not very musical performance which does not give me any
new insights into the music or - for me - is even a particularly
convincing (and convinced?) performance of this piece, just a
technically polished runthrough. Or what am I missing?

> I think your
> description is a pretty good fit for his tenure in Philadelphia. Over
> a period of a dozen years - more if you include the recordings he made
> before he took over for Ormandy - there were obviously a number of
> exceptions to the rule; including a few in that Beethoven cycle IMO.
> But I started going to concerts about midway through his tenure here,
> and I can honestly say that not a single concert I saw him lead stands
> out in my memory as being really outstanding. The orchestra played
> very well for him, but from an interpretive standpoint, nothing really
> stood out. And the orchestra sounded more generic than they did both
> before and after his tenures (especially before, but I noticed a
> change for what I thought was the better in the "sound" the orchestra
> was putting out almost immediately when Sawallisch took over).

How did the sound change?

> I've mentioned on here before that I get the impression from a few
> more recent performances of his that I've heard, that Muti has matured
> somewhat and is a better conductor today than he was during the 80s
> and 90s. I guess we'll get a better idea when some of his CSO live
> recordings start to come out.

I don't actually think Muti is an any better conductor now than he was
back in the 70s. He always was and still is a very professional, very
straight, no-nonsense, very technical kapellmeister type conductor who
does not even seem to look for any deeper insights into the music,
just a technically correct and smoothly polished rendition of the
written notes served in pleasantly warm and rounded off sound. Maybe
he will help the CSO to develop a less screechy, glaring sound and
maybe he will manage to give the string sound a little more depth and
roundness which it is sorely lacking, but I am not expecting any major
musical revelations coming from that corner. It is an amazingly
unoriginal and shortsighted choice they made by hiring him anyway.
Apparently, all they wanted is a "big name" to put on their posters,
and that is what they got, and not much else.

Despite being not a huge fan of Muti as you may have gathered by
now :-) there are aspects to his work that I respect and even like. He
can make some repertoire sound really good and I like that he programs
some neglected stuff along with the greatest hits, and that he also
used to record some works outside the mainstream, like the Scriabin
symphonies or lesser known Prokofieff works like the 3rd symphony and
the Meeting of the Volga and the Don. This thread actually reminded me
that I was curious about Muti's recording of La mer which is couple
with Chausson's Poème de l'amour et de la mer and Ravel's Une barque
sur l'océan so I found a cheap used copy and ordered it.
Phlmaestro
2010-03-30 21:23:48 UTC
Permalink
On Mar 30, 5:03 pm, M forever <***@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Mar 30, 2:33 pm, Phlmaestro <***@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Mar 30, 1:41 pm, M forever <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > On Mar 30, 11:30 am, Phlmaestro <***@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > > > On Mar 30, 10:13 am, The Historian <***@gmail.com>
> > > > wrote:
>
> > > > > On Mar 30, 12:14 am, Phlmaestro <***@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > > On Mar 29, 11:41 pm, The Historian <***@gmail.com>
> > > > > > wrote:
>
> > > > > > > Listening to the Eroica now. Good first movement, and a powerful
> > > > > > > funeral march. The scherzo is good but slightly rushed. Muti's Eroica
> > > > > > > was one of the high points of his mid-1980s cycle. I should pull it
> > > > > > > out and compare the two. Both are better than Ormandy's digital
> > > > > > > recording from 1979, which was probably conducted on auto-pilot.
>
> > > > > > I would definitely take the Eschenbach Eroica over Muti's Philadelphia
> > > > > > recording. But I don't agree that the Eroica was a high point of that
> > > > > > cycle. Numbers 4, 7 and 9 are my favorites from it.
>
> > > > > I like Muti's 3, 6, and 9 from the cycle. Many of the others are
> > > > > overdriven - in other words, typical Muti.
>
> > > > > Anything else worth hearing in the Eschenbach cycle? I have the 8th,
> > > > > which strikes me as well-done. Certainly better than Muti's rush
> > > > > through it.
>
> > > > I'm pretty sure I saw him conduct all nine symphonies live, and while
> > > > none of them stood out as being aweful, the only one that made a
> > > > strong enough impression to get me to buy the download was the Eroica.
> > > > But it seems like you and I disagree on the Muti cycle (I listened to
> > > > the disc with 7 and 8 the other night and enjoyed it a lot), so I'm
> > > > not sure my taste in Beethoven would be a good guide for you.
>
> > > For me, the whole Muti cyclehas no highlights or low points. I think
> > > it is generally very well played and musically very straightforward,
> > > tightly controlled by Muti, but beyond that, it has remarkably little
> > > features or qualities of any kind. It is consistently mediocre and
> > > unremarkable in really any way. I did kind of enjoy listening to it
> > > once though because of the basically quite nice, polished, rounded
> > > off, slightly dark sound Muti gets from the orchestra. I also heard
> > > them play the 5th live in Berlin back then which was a nice concert
> > > but again nothing special. Muti has that talent to make things very
> > > high end and mediocre at the same time. His Schubert cycle is amazing
> > > in that respect - only Muti could make the WP play Schubert so
> > > mechanically and stiffly!- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > While I obviously don't quite agree with you on the Beethoven cycle
> > (at least in its entirety; I do for some of it),
>
> What merits do you find in the Beethoven cycle that I missed? For
> instance, in the 4th symphony to which I re-listened just now,
> inspired bu this discussion. I think it's a very solid, but also
> mechanical and not very musical performance which does not give me any
> new insights into the music or - for me - is even a particularly
> convincing (and convinced?) performance of this piece, just a
> technically polished runthrough. Or what am I missing?
>
> > I think your
> > description is a pretty good fit for his tenure in Philadelphia. Over
> > a period of a dozen years - more if you include the recordings he made
> > before he took over for Ormandy - there were obviously a number of
> > exceptions to the rule; including a few in that Beethoven cycle IMO.
> > But I started going to concerts about midway through his tenure here,
> > and I can honestly say that not a single concert I saw him lead stands
> > out in my memory as being really outstanding. The orchestra played
> > very well for him, but from an interpretive standpoint, nothing really
> > stood out. And the orchestra sounded more generic than they did both
> > before and after his tenures (especially before, but I noticed a
> > change for what I thought was the better in the "sound" the orchestra
> > was putting out almost immediately when Sawallisch took over).
>
> How did the sound change?
>
> > I've mentioned on here before that I get the impression from a few
> > more recent performances of his that I've heard, that Muti has matured
> > somewhat and is a better conductor today than he was during the 80s
> > and 90s. I guess we'll get a better idea when some of his CSO live
> > recordings start to come out.
>
> I don't actually think Muti is an any better conductor now than he was
> back in the 70s. He always was and still is a very professional, very
> straight, no-nonsense, very technical kapellmeister type conductor who
> does not even seem to look for any deeper insights into the music,
> just a technically correct and smoothly polished rendition of the
> written notes served in pleasantly warm and rounded off sound. Maybe
> he will help the CSO to develop a less screechy, glaring sound and
> maybe he will manage to give the string sound a little more depth and
> roundness which it is sorely lacking, but I am not expecting any major
> musical revelations coming from that corner. It is an amazingly
> unoriginal and shortsighted choice they made by hiring him anyway.
> Apparently, all they wanted is a "big name" to put on their posters,
> and that is what they got, and not much else.
>
> Despite being not a huge fan of Muti as you may have gathered by
> now :-) there are aspects to his work that I respect and even like. He
> can make some repertoire sound really good and I like that he programs
> some neglected stuff along with the greatest hits, and that he also
> used to record some works outside the mainstream, like the Scriabin
> symphonies or lesser known Prokofieff works like the 3rd symphony and
> the Meeting of the Volga and the Don. This thread actually reminded me
> that I was curious about Muti's recording of La mer which is couple
> with Chausson's Poème de l'amour et de la mer and Ravel's Une barque
> sur l'océan so I found a cheap used copy and ordered it.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

On the Beethoven 4th, I actually haven't heard it for many years. I'm
going based on memory. I was still living with my family when the
cycle first came out in the mid 80s. My mother bought it, so I
listened to the cycle often back then. Now, I only have 7-9. I like
the extent to which he pushes the 7th, keeping the rhythm and lots of
energy throughout. I wouldn't put it quite in the same league as my
favorite recordings of the 7th (C. Kleiber on Orfeo and Barenboim/
Berlin St. on Teldec, along with Furtwangler's wartime performance),
but it's an above average recording IMO. I suppose it's possible that
were I to hear the 4th now, I wouldn't like it as much as I did years
ago. But back then, I recall thinking it was one of the best
recordings in the cycle.

As far as the sound of the Philadelphia from Muti to Sawallisch, I'd
say Sawallisch took them "part" way back to where they had been in the
pre-Muti days, although certainly not all the way back to the Ormandy-
Stokowski sound. The strings became a little warmer and thicker, the
brass blended in a little more. Overall, there was more of a "wall of
sound" type of impression.

On Muti and the CSO, the only thing I've heard from them is a live
Tchaikovsky 6th. I thought he did arguably a better job than any other
conductor I've heard at balancing the sections of that orchestra. The
brass didn't blare above the other sections. They sounded very good
IMO. The drawback to the performance, as we've alluded to, is that it
while Muti did a great job in controlling the orchestra in the manner
in which I just described, it also felt like he was putting the breaks
on them to too great of an extent. It was a very good performance that
could have easily been a great one had he just pushed them harder.
I've heard the live recording of the same symphony that he made a few
years ago with the French orchestra that he works with a couple times
and while that orchestra isn't the technical equal of the CSO, I
thought it was a more appealing performance from an interpretive
standpoing.

The other performance, aside from that one with the French orchestra,
that really made me stand up and take notice was a Bruckner 6th he led
with the NY Philharmonic a season or two ago. That was one case where
he most definitely did not put the breaks on his orchestra and pushed
them to deliver an extremely memorable performance. It's probably
about the best performance of a major Austro-German orchestral work
that I've ever heard Muti lead.
M forever
2010-03-31 21:34:55 UTC
Permalink
On Mar 30, 5:23 pm, Phlmaestro <***@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Mar 30, 5:03 pm, M forever <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Mar 30, 2:33 pm, Phlmaestro <***@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > > On Mar 30, 1:41 pm, M forever <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > On Mar 30, 11:30 am, Phlmaestro <***@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > On Mar 30, 10:13 am, The Historian <***@gmail.com>
> > > > > wrote:
>
> > > > > > On Mar 30, 12:14 am, Phlmaestro <***@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > > > On Mar 29, 11:41 pm, The Historian <***@gmail.com>
> > > > > > > wrote:
>
> > > > > > > > Listening to the Eroica now. Good first movement, and a powerful
> > > > > > > > funeral march. The scherzo is good but slightly rushed. Muti's Eroica
> > > > > > > > was one of the high points of his mid-1980s cycle. I should pull it
> > > > > > > > out and compare the two. Both are better than Ormandy's digital
> > > > > > > > recording from 1979, which was probably conducted on auto-pilot.
>
> > > > > > > I would definitely take the Eschenbach Eroica over Muti's Philadelphia
> > > > > > > recording. But I don't agree that the Eroica was a high point of that
> > > > > > > cycle. Numbers 4, 7 and 9 are my favorites from it.
>
> > > > > > I like Muti's 3, 6, and 9 from the cycle. Many of the others are
> > > > > > overdriven - in other words, typical Muti.
>
> > > > > > Anything else worth hearing in the Eschenbach cycle? I have the 8th,
> > > > > > which strikes me as well-done. Certainly better than Muti's rush
> > > > > > through it.
>
> > > > > I'm pretty sure I saw him conduct all nine symphonies live, and while
> > > > > none of them stood out as being aweful, the only one that made a
> > > > > strong enough impression to get me to buy the download was the Eroica.
> > > > > But it seems like you and I disagree on the Muti cycle (I listened to
> > > > > the disc with 7 and 8 the other night and enjoyed it a lot), so I'm
> > > > > not sure my taste in Beethoven would be a good guide for you.
>
> > > > For me, the whole Muti cyclehas no highlights or low points. I think
> > > > it is generally very well played and musically very straightforward,
> > > > tightly controlled by Muti, but beyond that, it has remarkably little
> > > > features or qualities of any kind. It is consistently mediocre and
> > > > unremarkable in really any way. I did kind of enjoy listening to it
> > > > once though because of the basically quite nice, polished, rounded
> > > > off, slightly dark sound Muti gets from the orchestra. I also heard
> > > > them play the 5th live in Berlin back then which was a nice concert
> > > > but again nothing special. Muti has that talent to make things very
> > > > high end and mediocre at the same time. His Schubert cycle is amazing
> > > > in that respect - only Muti could make the WP play Schubert so
> > > > mechanically and stiffly!- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > > While I obviously don't quite agree with you on the Beethoven cycle
> > > (at least in its entirety; I do for some of it),
>
> > What merits do you find in the Beethoven cycle that I missed? For
> > instance, in the 4th symphony to which I re-listened just now,
> > inspired bu this discussion. I think it's a very solid, but also
> > mechanical and not very musical performance which does not give me any
> > new insights into the music or - for me - is even a particularly
> > convincing (and convinced?) performance of this piece, just a
> > technically polished runthrough. Or what am I missing?
>
> > > I think your
> > > description is a pretty good fit for his tenure in Philadelphia. Over
> > > a period of a dozen years - more if you include the recordings he made
> > > before he took over for Ormandy - there were obviously a number of
> > > exceptions to the rule; including a few in that Beethoven cycle IMO.
> > > But I started going to concerts about midway through his tenure here,
> > > and I can honestly say that not a single concert I saw him lead stands
> > > out in my memory as being really outstanding. The orchestra played
> > > very well for him, but from an interpretive standpoint, nothing really
> > > stood out. And the orchestra sounded more generic than they did both
> > > before and after his tenures (especially before, but I noticed a
> > > change for what I thought was the better in the "sound" the orchestra
> > > was putting out almost immediately when Sawallisch took over).
>
> > How did the sound change?
>
> > > I've mentioned on here before that I get the impression from a few
> > > more recent performances of his that I've heard, that Muti has matured
> > > somewhat and is a better conductor today than he was during the 80s
> > > and 90s. I guess we'll get a better idea when some of his CSO live
> > > recordings start to come out.
>
> > I don't actually think Muti is an any better conductor now than he was
> > back in the 70s. He always was and still is a very professional, very
> > straight, no-nonsense, very technical kapellmeister type conductor who
> > does not even seem to look for any deeper insights into the music,
> > just a technically correct and smoothly polished rendition of the
> > written notes served in pleasantly warm and rounded off sound. Maybe
> > he will help the CSO to develop a less screechy, glaring sound and
> > maybe he will manage to give the string sound a little more depth and
> > roundness which it is sorely lacking, but I am not expecting any major
> > musical revelations coming from that corner. It is an amazingly
> > unoriginal and shortsighted choice they made by hiring him anyway.
> > Apparently, all they wanted is a "big name" to put on their posters,
> > and that is what they got, and not much else.
>
> > Despite being not a huge fan of Muti as you may have gathered by
> > now :-) there are aspects to his work that I respect and even like. He
> > can make some repertoire sound really good and I like that he programs
> > some neglected stuff along with the greatest hits, and that he also
> > used to record some works outside the mainstream, like the Scriabin
> > symphonies or lesser known Prokofieff works like the 3rd symphony and
> > the Meeting of the Volga and the Don. This thread actually reminded me
> > that I was curious about Muti's recording of La mer which is couple
> > with Chausson's Poème de l'amour et de la mer and Ravel's Une barque
> > sur l'océan so I found a cheap used copy and ordered it.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> On the Beethoven 4th, I actually haven't heard it for many years. I'm
> going based on memory. I was still living with my family when the
> cycle first came out in the mid 80s. My mother bought it, so I
> listened to the cycle often back then. Now, I only have 7-9. I like
> the extent to which he pushes the 7th, keeping the rhythm and lots of
> energy throughout. I wouldn't put it quite in the same league as my
> favorite recordings of the 7th (C. Kleiber on Orfeo and Barenboim/
> Berlin St. on Teldec, along with Furtwangler's wartime performance),
> but it's an above average recording IMO. I suppose it's possible that
> were I to hear the 4th now, I wouldn't like it as much as I did years
> ago. But back then, I recall thinking it was one of the best
> recordings in the cycle.

I didn't know there was also a live 7th with Kleiber on Orfeo. Good to
know. I put that recording on my wish list. I also listened to Muti's
7th in the meantime and find it quite good, too, although not among
the best I have heard either. There is indeed a strong sense of
forward momentum and cumulative rhythmic energy. I also noticed more
clearly what I found lacking in the other Beethoven syn phonies I
heard from that Philadelphia cycle: there is often very little
attention paid to inner voices, especially wind parts which color
harmonic changes, e.g. the passage in the first movement when the
Vivace begins and the "call and response" between flutes and violins
develops. That is all done very well but the harmonic background
provided by the clarinets and bassoons (5th bar of the Vivace onwards)
is underexposed. That seems to be the rule throughout this cycle -
very nice superficial sheen but little textural and musical "depth".
Anyway, let's not flog this horse too much since we all seem to
basically agree about these recordings. I can see though how some
might find more of interest in them than I do.

> As far as the sound of the Philadelphia from Muti to Sawallisch, I'd
> say Sawallisch took them "part" way back to where they had been in the
> pre-Muti days, although certainly not all the way back to the Ormandy-
> Stokowski sound. The strings became a little warmer and thicker, the
> brass blended in a little more. Overall, there was more of a "wall of
> sound" type of impression.
>
> On Muti and the CSO, the only thing I've heard from them is a live
> Tchaikovsky 6th. I thought he did arguably a better job than any other
> conductor I've heard at balancing the sections of that orchestra. The
> brass didn't blare above the other sections. They sounded very good
> IMO. The drawback to the performance, as we've alluded to, is that it
> while Muti did a great job in controlling the orchestra in the manner
> in which I just described, it also felt like he was putting the breaks
> on them to too great of an extent. It was a very good performance that
> could have easily been a great one had he just pushed them harder.
> I've heard the live recording of the same symphony that he made a few
> years ago with the French orchestra that he works with a couple times
> and while that orchestra isn't the technical equal of the CSO, I
> thought it was a more appealing performance from an interpretive
> standpoing.

I have that recording, too (on Naïve) and find it similarly appealing
although I would disagree with the statement that the Orchestre
National de France isn't "the technical equal" of the CSO; they are an
excellent orchestra and while standards used to be a bit shaky, like
many other orchestras the standard has improved quite dramatically
since the 60s and 70s. I have heard them live a number of times and
found them usually very impressive- especially as far as sound and
ensemble culture are concerned. They have a very refined string sound
and play very flexibly as an ensemble, rather than just executing the
notes safely. I heard them play Tchaikovsky 5 with Masur here in
Boston last year and as a result of that fabulous performance, I have
pretty much stopped going to BSO concerts - it's just not quite the
same. I suspect that the differences you hear between this recording
and the live performance of the 6th you attended may have to do with
the orchestras, too.

> The other performance, aside from that one with the French orchestra,
> that really made me stand up and take notice was a Bruckner 6th he led
> with the NY Philharmonic a season or two ago. That was one case where
> he most definitely did not put the breaks on his orchestra and pushed
> them to deliver an extremely memorable performance. It's probably
> about the best performance of a major Austro-German orchestral work
> that I've ever heard Muti lead.

Muti also recorded the 6th in Berlin. A fairly massive and heavy
performance, IIRC. I haven't heard it in a long time. That is, as I
mentioned, one of the things I like about Muti - he doesn't just
concentrate on the "biggest hits". He did record the 4th, too, but he
has apparently conducted the 2nd quite often in concert as well. There
are several live recordings of that floating around (e.g. with WP).
Phlmaestro
2010-03-31 22:36:08 UTC
Permalink
On Mar 31, 5:34 pm, M forever <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I didn't know there was also a live 7th with Kleiber on Orfeo. Good to
> know. I put that recording on my wish list.
> - Show quoted text -
>

Let me know how you like it after you've had a chance to hear it. I
had always thought Kleiber's DG orchestral recordings to be slightly
overrated, but I was blown away when I started listening to some of
his live recordings. I prefer this 7th on Orfeo, which is with the
Bavarian State Orchestra, to both the studio VPO recording and the
live DVD performance with the Concertgebouw, although the latter is
certainly also a sensational performance.
M forever
2010-04-01 03:00:37 UTC
Permalink
On Mar 31, 6:36 pm, Phlmaestro <***@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Mar 31, 5:34 pm, M forever <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > I didn't know there was also a live 7th with Kleiber on Orfeo. Good to
> > know. I put that recording on my wish list.
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> Let me know how you like it after you've had a chance to hear it. I
> had always thought Kleiber's DG orchestral recordings to be slightly
> overrated, but I was blown away when I started listening to some of
> his live recordings. I prefer this 7th on Orfeo, which is with the
> Bavarian State Orchestra, to both the studio VPO recording and the
> live DVD performance with the Concertgebouw, although the latter is
> certainly also a sensational performance.

I will definitely check that out. In the meantime, I found out that,
not surprisingly, of course, there are a number of other live
recordings floating around, including another one with the BStO from a
Japan tour.
I am not really into the whole "rating" and, consequently "underrated"
and "overrated" thing though. How "slightly" are the DG recordings
"overrated"? By about 3%? LOL! I think those are fabulous performance,
no matter how they are "rated". Since there are no absolutes in music,
these are about as good as it gets as far as I am concerned, which
doesn't mean that there can't be other, "equally" good performances
from Kleiber and other artists. If that wasn't the case, it wouldn't
be fun to collect and compare performances anyway.
Steve de Mena
2010-04-01 03:10:33 UTC
Permalink
On 3/31/10 2:34 PM, M forever wrote:

>> On the Beethoven 4th, I actually haven't heard it for many years. I'm
>> going based on memory. I was still living with my family when the
>> cycle first came out in the mid 80s. My mother bought it, so I
>> listened to the cycle often back then. Now, I only have 7-9. I like
>> the extent to which he pushes the 7th, keeping the rhythm and lots of
>> energy throughout. I wouldn't put it quite in the same league as my
>> favorite recordings of the 7th (C. Kleiber on Orfeo and Barenboim/
>> Berlin St. on Teldec, along with Furtwangler's wartime performance),
>> but it's an above average recording IMO. I suppose it's possible that
>> were I to hear the 4th now, I wouldn't like it as much as I did years
>> ago. But back then, I recall thinking it was one of the best
>> recordings in the cycle.
>
> I didn't know there was also a live 7th with Kleiber on Orfeo.

It's an Orfeo SACD (1982 Live, AAD)

Steve
Sol L. Siegel
2010-03-30 19:44:19 UTC
Permalink
Phlmaestro <***@yahoo.com> wrote in news:180be02a-c485-4bf6-
aa44-***@k13g2000yqe.googlegroups.com:

> Sawallisch led an outstanding performance of the Eroica here, I
> believe in the spring of 2001 (and then took it on tour).

I thought that was a superb example of a conductor pushing the music the
way he wanted so subtly that if sounded as if he were simply LTMSFI -
but he wasn't. I recall that it was the main work on a tour the
Orchestra took just after 9/11, which was pretty emotional.

> It would be nice if more of his stuff from around 8-12 years ago would
> be released for download.

Agreed. Start with any of his Haydn (an incredible 97), and the Grieg
Symphonic Dances, and his last Beethoven 4 from 2004, and the
Tchaikovsky 4 and String Serenade that were briefly available on a very
limited-edition promotional disc that I was never able to get my hands
on, and perhaps Bruckner 8, and (one can always dream) the Elgar VC with
Teztlaff and, above all, Pavel Haas's Studie for Strings from his first
season as MD.

--
- Sol L. Siegel, Philadelphia, PA USA
Phlmaestro
2010-03-30 19:56:24 UTC
Permalink
On Mar 30, 3:44 pm, "Sol L. Siegel" <***@aol.com> wrote:
>
> Agreed.  Start with any of his Haydn (an incredible 97), and the Grieg
> Symphonic Dances, and his last Beethoven 4 from 2004, and the
> Tchaikovsky 4 and String Serenade that were briefly available on a very
> limited-edition promotional disc that I was never able to get my hands
> on, and perhaps Bruckner 8, and (one can always dream) the Elgar VC with
> Teztlaff and, above all, Pavel Haas's Studie for Strings from his first
> season as MD.
>
> --
> - Sol L. Siegel, Philadelphia, PA USA
>

Right around the same time he led that Eroica in Philly, he also
conducted a Brahms fourth that may have been the single best live
Brahms performance I've ever heard; with only a second conducted by
Temirkanov being close. And there was also a Bruckner fourth from that
same spring. It was a great period to be a regular attendee at PO
concerts; probably my favorite four or five year period in the 25 or
so years I've been going to see them play.
Thornhill
2010-03-28 16:33:18 UTC
Permalink
On Mar 27, 11:18 am, The Historian <***@gmail.com>
wrote:
> Any recommendations among the 30 or so Philadelphia Orchestra
> downloads now available on Amazon? I'm downloading Milanov's
> Shostakovich 15th now.

Prokofiev: Symphony No.5 - Eschenbach
Brahms: Serenades - Sawallisch
The Historian
2010-03-30 14:15:58 UTC
Permalink
On Mar 28, 12:33 pm, Thornhill <***@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Mar 27, 11:18 am, The Historian <***@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > Any recommendations among the 30 or so Philadelphia Orchestra
> > downloads now available on Amazon? I'm downloading Milanov's
> > Shostakovich 15th now.
>
> Prokofiev: Symphony No.5 - Eschenbach
> Brahms: Serenades - Sawallisch

Thanks. The Serenades are lovely. I still prefer Mackerras in both,
and Tintner in #2, but these are very good.
Bob Harper
2010-03-30 15:33:59 UTC
Permalink
On 3/30/10 7:15 AM, The Historian wrote:
> On Mar 28, 12:33 pm, Thornhill<***@gmail.com> wrote:
(snip)
>> Brahms: Serenades - Sawallisch
>
> Thanks. The Serenades are lovely. I still prefer Mackerras in both,
> and Tintner in #2, but these are very good.

What are people's favorite versions of these wonderful works? I'm not
normally a fan of HIP, but the CPO disc with the Capella
Augustina/Andreas Spering is, like his Naxos recording of Die Schöpfung,
an exception. I have, and enjoy, Mackerras and Kertesz as well, but for
me Spering's at the top of the list.

Bob Harper
Gerard
2010-03-30 15:49:18 UTC
Permalink
Bob Harper wrote:
> On 3/30/10 7:15 AM, The Historian wrote:
> > On Mar 28, 12:33 pm, Thornhill<***@gmail.com> wrote:
> (snip)
> > > Brahms: Serenades - Sawallisch
> >
> > Thanks. The Serenades are lovely. I still prefer Mackerras in both,
> > and Tintner in #2, but these are very good.
>
> What are people's favorite versions of these wonderful works?

Belohlavek.
But that you knew already ;)

> I'm not
> normally a fan of HIP, but the CPO disc with the Capella
> Augustina/Andreas Spering is, like his Naxos recording of Die
> Schöpfung, an exception. I have, and enjoy, Mackerras and Kertesz as
> well, but for me Spering's at the top of the list.
>
> Bob Harper
jrsnfld
2010-03-30 17:10:18 UTC
Permalink
On Mar 30, 8:49 am, "Gerard" <ghen_nospam_driksenþ@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Bob Harper wrote:
> > On 3/30/10 7:15 AM, The Historian wrote:
> > > On Mar 28, 12:33 pm, Thornhill<***@gmail.com>  wrote:
> > (snip)
> > > > Brahms: Serenades - Sawallisch
>
> > > Thanks. The Serenades are lovely. I still prefer Mackerras in both,
> > > and Tintner in #2, but these are very good.
>
> > What are people's favorite versions of these wonderful works?
>
> Belohlavek.
> But that you knew already ;)
>
> > I'm not
> > normally a fan of HIP, but the CPO disc with the Capella
> > Augustina/Andreas Spering is, like his Naxos recording of Die
> > Schöpfung, an exception. I have, and enjoy,  Mackerras and Kertesz as
> > well, but for me Spering's at the top of the list.
>
> > Bob Harper

I like Belohlavek too, though I will be downloading the Philadelphia
Orchestra performances with high expectations. Slatkin/SLSO are also
quite good in this music, as are Haitink/Concertgebouworkest.
Toscanini was very different but not shabby either. I wish Abbado
would record these again, now with his Lucerne Festival.

Of course, this is such great music, so I'm grasping to remember a
recording I didn't like. Kertesz comes close (perhaps the sound on
that early budget CD transfer did the performance a disservice).

--Jeff
Gerard
2010-03-30 17:25:45 UTC
Permalink
jrsnfld wrote:
> On Mar 30, 8:49 am, "Gerard" <ghen_nospam_driksenþ@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > Bob Harper wrote:
> > > On 3/30/10 7:15 AM, The Historian wrote:
> > > > On Mar 28, 12:33 pm, Thornhill<***@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > (snip)
> > > > > Brahms: Serenades - Sawallisch
> >
> > > > Thanks. The Serenades are lovely. I still prefer Mackerras in
> > > > both, and Tintner in #2, but these are very good.
> >
> > > What are people's favorite versions of these wonderful works?
> >
> > Belohlavek.
> > But that you knew already ;)
> >
> > > I'm not
> > > normally a fan of HIP, but the CPO disc with the Capella
> > > Augustina/Andreas Spering is, like his Naxos recording of Die
> > > Schöpfung, an exception. I have, and enjoy, Mackerras and Kertesz
> > > as well, but for me Spering's at the top of the list.
> >
> > > Bob Harper
>
> I like Belohlavek too, though I will be downloading the Philadelphia
> Orchestra performances with high expectations. Slatkin/SLSO are also
> quite good in this music, as are Haitink/Concertgebouworkest.
> Toscanini was very different but not shabby either. I wish Abbado
> would record these again, now with his Lucerne Festival.
>
> Of course, this is such great music, so I'm grasping to remember a
> recording I didn't like.

I do remember one: Abbado #1 (DG) - I've heard only once, and all I remember is
that I was disappointed.
OTOH Haitink, Bertini, Tilson Thomas are all fine. And Kertesz.

>
> Kertesz comes close (perhaps the sound on
> that early budget CD transfer did the performance a disservice).
>

Was that an earlier issue than those on Double Decca's (with the symphonies)?
jrsnfld
2010-03-30 18:16:30 UTC
Permalink
On Mar 30, 10:25 am, "Gerard" <ghen_nospam_driksenþ@hotmail.com>
wrote:
> jrsnfld wrote:
> > On Mar 30, 8:49 am, "Gerard" <ghen_nospam_driksenþ@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > > Bob Harper wrote:
> > > > On 3/30/10 7:15 AM, The Historian wrote:
> > > > > On Mar 28, 12:33 pm, Thornhill<***@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > (snip)
> > > > > > Brahms: Serenades - Sawallisch
>
> > > > > Thanks. The Serenades are lovely. I still prefer Mackerras in
> > > > > both, and Tintner in #2, but these are very good.
>
> > > > What are people's favorite versions of these wonderful works?
>
> > > Belohlavek.
> > > But that you knew already ;)
>
> > > > I'm not
> > > > normally a fan of HIP, but the CPO disc with the Capella
> > > > Augustina/Andreas Spering is, like his Naxos recording of Die
> > > > Schöpfung, an exception. I have, and enjoy, Mackerras and Kertesz
> > > > as well, but for me Spering's at the top of the list.
>
> > > > Bob Harper
>
> > I like Belohlavek too, though I will be downloading the Philadelphia
> > Orchestra performances with high expectations. Slatkin/SLSO are also
> > quite good in this music, as are Haitink/Concertgebouworkest.
> > Toscanini was very different but not shabby either. I wish Abbado
> > would record these again, now with his Lucerne Festival.
>
> > Of course, this is such great music, so I'm grasping to remember a
> > recording I didn't like.
>
> I do remember one: Abbado #1 (DG) - I've heard only once, and all I remember is
> that I was disappointed.
> OTOH Haitink, Bertini, Tilson Thomas are all fine. And Kertesz.
>
>
>
> > Kertesz comes close (perhaps the sound on
> > that early budget CD transfer did the performance a disservice).
>
> Was that an earlier issue than those on Double Decca's (with the symphonies)?

Yes. Here it was issued in a series called "Weekend Classics". The
serenades were issued without the symphonies. I did not buy the disc,
but listened a couple of times thanks to a friend, so I don't have it.
I have the second serenade with Kertesz on a nice LP copy, but haven't
heard it in a long time.

--Jeff
Matthew B. Tepper
2010-03-30 19:28:33 UTC
Permalink
jrsnfld <***@aol.com> appears to have caused the following letters to
be typed in
news:47314242-fc2a-4cd3-ad69-***@r1g2000yqj.googlegroups.com:

> On Mar 30, 10:25 am, "Gerard" <ghen_nospam_driksenþ@hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>> jrsnfld wrote:
>> > On Mar 30, 8:49 am, "Gerard" <ghen_nospam_driksenþ@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> > Kertesz comes close (perhaps the sound on that early budget CD
>> > transfer did the performance a disservice).
>>
>> Was that an earlier issue than those on Double Decca's (with the
>> symphonies)?
>
> Yes. Here it was issued in a series called "Weekend Classics". The
> serenades were issued without the symphonies. I did not buy the disc,
> but listened a couple of times thanks to a friend, so I don't have it.
> I have the second serenade with Kertesz on a nice LP copy, but haven't
> heard it in a long time.

I have the Weekend Classics edition, and am satisfied with it.

--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
Read about "Proty" here: http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/proty.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
Opinions expressed here are not necessarily those of my employers
Bob Harper
2010-03-30 20:05:09 UTC
Permalink
On 3/30/10 10:25 AM, Gerard wrote:
> jrsnfld wrote:
(snip)
>> Kertesz comes close (perhaps the sound on
>> that early budget CD transfer did the performance a disservice).
>>
>
> Was that an earlier issue than those on Double Decca's (with the symphonies)?
>
>
No, it was on London Weekend Classics here in the US. The one I have now
is on German Eloquence (466 672-2).

Bob Harper
Gerard
2010-03-30 20:27:25 UTC
Permalink
Bob Harper wrote:
> On 3/30/10 10:25 AM, Gerard wrote:
> > jrsnfld wrote:
> (snip)
> > > Kertesz comes close (perhaps the sound on
> > > that early budget CD transfer did the performance a disservice).
> > >
> >
> > Was that an earlier issue than those on Double Decca's (with the
> > symphonies)?
> >
> >
> No, it was on London Weekend Classics here in the US.

Here I agree with Jeff: the Weekend Classics issue was an _earlier_ issue.

>
> The one I have
> now is on German Eloquence (466 672-2).
>

Having a lot of those German Eloquences I'm almost sure that the Double Decca
issues have a better (more agreeable) sound. I mention this because for Jeff the
sound was a point in this case.
Bob Harper
2010-03-30 22:03:56 UTC
Permalink
On 3/30/10 1:27 PM, Gerard wrote:
> Bob Harper wrote:
>> On 3/30/10 10:25 AM, Gerard wrote:
>>> jrsnfld wrote:
>> (snip)
>>>> Kertesz comes close (perhaps the sound on
>>>> that early budget CD transfer did the performance a disservice).
>>>>
>>>
>>> Was that an earlier issue than those on Double Decca's (with the
>>> symphonies)?
>>>
>>>
>> No, it was on London Weekend Classics here in the US.

I misread, and should have answered *yes*, as I believe the Weekend
Classics issue (which, like all of that series, said 'AAD' for the
digital conversion) was first.
>
> Here I agree with Jeff: the Weekend Classics issue was an _earlier_ issue.
>
>>
>> The one I have
>> now is on German Eloquence (466 672-2).
>>
>
> Having a lot of those German Eloquences I'm almost sure that the Double Decca
> issues have a better (more agreeable) sound. I mention this because for Jeff the
> sound was a point in this case.
>
>
Not having heard the Double Deccas for a long time (I stupidly let them
go), I can't answer. Interestingly, the one I have has NO information
WRT the remastering.

Bob Harper
Bob Harper
2010-03-30 19:56:17 UTC
Permalink
On 3/30/10 10:10 AM, jrsnfld wrote:
(snip)

Haitink/Concertgebouworkest.

(snip)

I'd forgotten about these, as I have them in a different place, but I
agree. In fact, I like Haitink's Brahms set in its entirety--a great
purchase in a cheap Phillips box from the late, lamented Kuijper
Klassiek in Amsterdam.

Bob Harper
Bob Harper
2010-03-30 19:59:17 UTC
Permalink
On 3/30/10 8:49 AM, Gerard wrote:
(snip)
> Belohlavek.
> But that you knew already ;)

Actually, I didn't, but having seen it recommended several times in this
thread, I'm tempted to investigate.

Bob Harper
>
Gerard
2010-03-30 20:03:53 UTC
Permalink
Bob Harper wrote:
> On 3/30/10 8:49 AM, Gerard wrote:
> (snip)
> > Belohlavek.
> > But that you knew already ;)
>
> Actually, I didn't, but having seen it recommended several times in
> this thread, I'm tempted to investigate.
>
> Bob Harper

I think the serenades are only available these days in a box with the Brahms
symphonies. The best part of the box is ... the serenades - the symphonies can
be missed.
Thornhill
2010-03-30 23:31:23 UTC
Permalink
On Mar 30, 10:49 am, "Gerard" <ghen_nospam_driksen @hotmail.com>
wrote:
> Bob Harper wrote:
> > On 3/30/10 7:15 AM, The Historian wrote:
> > > On Mar 28, 12:33 pm, Thornhill<***@gmail.com>  wrote:
> > (snip)
> > > > Brahms: Serenades - Sawallisch
>
> > > Thanks. The Serenades are lovely. I still prefer Mackerras in both,
> > > and Tintner in #2, but these are very good.
>
> > What are people's favorite versions of these wonderful works?
>
> Belohlavek.
> But that you knew already ;)
>
>
>
> > I'm not
> > normally a fan of HIP, but the CPO disc with the Capella
> > Augustina/Andreas Spering is, like his Naxos recording of Die
> > Sch pfung, an exception. I have, and enjoy,  Mackerras and Kertesz as
> > well, but for me Spering's at the top of the list.
>
> > Bob Harper

Mackerras.
Terry
2010-03-31 09:14:02 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 31 Mar 2010 10:31:23 +1100, Thornhill wrote
(in article
<8a107624-a819-4898-990c-***@r27g2000yqn.googlegroups.com>):

> On Mar 30, 10:49 am, "Gerard" <ghen_nospam_driksen @hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>> Bob Harper wrote:
>>> On 3/30/10 7:15 AM, The Historian wrote:
>>>> On Mar 28, 12:33 pm, Thornhill<***@gmail.com>  wrote:
>>> (snip)
>>>>> Brahms: Serenades - Sawallisch
>>
>>>> Thanks. The Serenades are lovely. I still prefer Mackerras in both,
>>>> and Tintner in #2, but these are very good.
>>
>>> What are people's favorite versions of these wonderful works?
>>
>> Belohlavek.
>> But that you knew already ;)
>>
>>
>>
>>> I'm not
>>> normally a fan of HIP, but the CPO disc with the Capella
>>> Augustina/Andreas Spering is, like his Naxos recording of Die
>>> Sch pfung, an exception. I have, and enjoy,  Mackerras and Kertesz as
>>> well, but for me Spering's at the top of the list.
>>
>>> Bob Harper
>
> Mackerras.

Mackerras!

--
Cheers!

Terry
Matthew B. Tepper
2010-03-31 14:42:57 UTC
Permalink
Terry <***@clown.invalid> appears to have caused the following letters to be
typed in news:***@news.tpg.com.au:

> On Wed, 31 Mar 2010 10:31:23 +1100, Thornhill wrote (in article
><8a107624-a819-4898-990c-***@r27g2000yqn.googlegroups.com>):
>
>> Mackerras.
>
> Mackerras!

I really should try Mackerras....

--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
Read about "Proty" here: http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/proty.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
Opinions expressed here are not necessarily those of my employers
David Oberman
2010-03-31 14:45:46 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 31 Mar 2010 09:42:57 -0500, "Matthew B. Tepper"
<oyþ@earthlink.net> wrote:

>>> Mackerras.
>>
>> Mackerras!
>
>I really should try Mackerras....

Have you heard Herring?
Gerard
2010-03-31 14:51:42 UTC
Permalink
David Oberman wrote:
> On Wed, 31 Mar 2010 09:42:57 -0500, "Matthew B. Tepper"
> <oyþ@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> > > > Mackerras.
> > >
> > > Mackerras!
> >
> > I really should try Mackerras....
>
> Have you heard Herring?

By Britten?
Or Harding?
Bob Harper
2010-03-31 15:41:18 UTC
Permalink
On 3/31/10 7:51 AM, Gerard wrote:
> David Oberman wrote:
>> On Wed, 31 Mar 2010 09:42:57 -0500, "Matthew B. Tepper"
>> <oyþ@earthlink.net> wrote:
>>
>>>>> Mackerras.
>>>>
>>>> Mackerras!
>>>
>>> I really should try Mackerras....
>>
>> Have you heard Herring?
>
> By Britten?
> Or Harding?
>
>
I *think* he meant to write *Spering*, but I could be wrong.

Bob Harper
Matthew B. Tepper
2010-04-01 14:42:56 UTC
Permalink
David Oberman <***@att.net> appears to have caused the following
letters to be typed in news:***@4ax.com:

> On Wed, 31 Mar 2010 09:42:57 -0500, "Matthew B. Tepper"
><oyþ@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>>>> Mackerras.
>>>
>>> Mackerras!
>>
>>I really should try Mackerras....
>
> Have you heard Herring?

I'm sorry? Would you please speak up? I'm hard of Herring.

--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
Read about "Proty" here: http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/proty.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
Opinions expressed here are not necessarily those of my employers
The Historian
2010-03-30 15:49:39 UTC
Permalink
On Mar 30, 11:33 am, Bob Harper <***@comcast.net> wrote:
> On 3/30/10 7:15 AM, The Historian wrote:
>
> > On Mar 28, 12:33 pm, Thornhill<***@gmail.com>  wrote:
> (snip)
> >> Brahms: Serenades - Sawallisch
>
> > Thanks. The Serenades are lovely. I still prefer Mackerras in both,
> > and Tintner in #2, but these are very good.
>
> What are people's favorite versions of these wonderful works? I'm not
> normally a fan of HIP, but the CPO disc with the Capella
> Augustina/Andreas Spering is, like his Naxos recording of Die Schöpfung,
> an exception. I have, and enjoy,  Mackerras and Kertesz as well, but for
> me Spering's at the top of the list.

I'll add Stokowski in the first.
Matthew B. Tepper
2010-03-30 19:28:32 UTC
Permalink
The Historian <***@gmail.com> appears to have caused the
following letters to be typed in news:a0622fc7-a8b4-46c7-b7fc-b0fd77c46956
@o30g2000yqb.googlegroups.com:

> On Mar 30, 11:33 am, Bob Harper <***@comcast.net> wrote:
>> On 3/30/10 7:15 AM, The Historian wrote:
>>
>> > On Mar 28, 12:33 pm, Thornhill<***@gmail.com>  wrote:
>> (snip)
>> >> Brahms: Serenades - Sawallisch
>>
>> > Thanks. The Serenades are lovely. I still prefer Mackerras in both,
>> > and Tintner in #2, but these are very good.
>>
>> What are people's favorite versions of these wonderful works? I'm not
>> normally a fan of HIP, but the CPO disc with the Capella
>> Augustina/Andreas Spering is, like his Naxos recording of Die Schöpfung,
>> an exception. I have, and enjoy,  Mackerras and Kertesz as well, but for
>> me Spering's at the top of the list.
>
> I'll add Stokowski in the first.

If you can tolerate the wretched sound, there's much felicitous playing in
the Toscanini/New York Philharmonic-Symphony performances on Guild.

--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
Read about "Proty" here: http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/proty.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
Opinions expressed here are not necessarily those of my employers
wagnerfan
2010-03-30 15:52:14 UTC
Permalink
On Mar 30, 11:33 am, Bob Harper <***@comcast.net> wrote:
> On 3/30/10 7:15 AM, The Historian wrote:
>
> > On Mar 28, 12:33 pm, Thornhill<***@gmail.com>  wrote:
> (snip)
> >> Brahms: Serenades - Sawallisch
>
> > Thanks. The Serenades are lovely. I still prefer Mackerras in both,
> > and Tintner in #2, but these are very good.
>
> What are people's favorite versions of these wonderful works? I'm not
> normally a fan of HIP, but the CPO disc with the Capella
> Augustina/Andreas Spering is, like his Naxos recording of Die Schöpfung,
> an exception. I have, and enjoy,  Mackerras and Kertesz as well, but for
> me Spering's at the top of the list.
>
> Bob Harper

I'm a great fan of Spering and second his Schopfung recording -
wonderfully colorful and dramatic HIP or no. Wagner fan
Alan Cooper
2010-03-30 16:59:18 UTC
Permalink
Bob Harper <***@comcast.net> wrote in
news:JRosn.108053$***@en-nntp-01.dc1.easynews.com:

> On 3/30/10 7:15 AM, The Historian wrote:
>> On Mar 28, 12:33 pm, Thornhill<***@gmail.com> wrote:
> (snip)
>>> Brahms: Serenades - Sawallisch
>>
>> Thanks. The Serenades are lovely. I still prefer Mackerras in
>> both, and Tintner in #2, but these are very good.
>
> What are people's favorite versions of these wonderful works?
> I'm not normally a fan of HIP, but the CPO disc with the Capella
> Augustina/Andreas Spering is, like his Naxos recording of Die
> Schöpfung, an exception. I have, and enjoy, Mackerras and
> Kertesz as well, but for me Spering's at the top of the list.

I have not heard Spering, but of the many other recordings that I know of #1,
Brusilow's stands out as my favorite (http://www.rediscovery.us/conductors.html). If
I were to recommend a single CD of both Serenades, probably it would be Masur on
Australian Eloquence. Not that there's anything wrong with Mackerras or Kertesz; I
just prefer the sound of the Leipzig orchestra and the warmth of the recording. And
it's a bargain.

AC
Josquin
2010-03-30 19:22:28 UTC
Permalink
On Mar 30, 11:33 am, Bob Harper <***@comcast.net> wrote:

>
> What are people's favorite versions of these wonderful works?

Speaking of Decca - but American Decca - my imprint version of the
Brahms first Serenade was a Decca LP of the Little Orchestra Society
conducted by Thomas Scherman. I wonder if anyone here ever heard this
recording? Though not quite as well played as any of the competitors
listed in this thread, it has a really relaxed quality to it that I
haven't found in the other versions. Many are a little hard driven,
playing it more like a Symphony and not a Serenade...
wanwan
2010-03-31 05:12:58 UTC
Permalink
On Mar 30, 5:33 am, Bob Harper <***@comcast.net> wrote:
> On 3/30/10 7:15 AM, The Historian wrote:
>
> > On Mar 28, 12:33 pm, Thornhill<***@gmail.com>  wrote:
> (snip)
> >> Brahms: Serenades - Sawallisch
>
> > Thanks. The Serenades are lovely. I still prefer Mackerras in both,
> > and Tintner in #2, but these are very good.
>
> What are people's favorite versions of these wonderful works? I'm not
> normally a fan of HIP, but the CPO disc with the Capella
> Augustina/Andreas Spering is, like his Naxos recording of Die Sch pfung,
> an exception. I have, and enjoy,  Mackerras and Kertesz as well, but for
> me Spering's at the top of the list.
>
> Bob Harper

For #1 Haitink/Concertgebouw and Handley/Ulster. Both are simply
glorious in their orchestral sound.

--------------
Eric
The Historian
2010-05-05 16:37:04 UTC
Permalink
On Mar 27, 11:18 am, The Historian <***@gmail.com>
wrote:
> Any recommendations among the 30 or soPhiladelphiaOrchestra
> downloads now available onAmazon? I'm downloading Milanov's
> Shostakovich 15th now.

Thanks, folks, for the suggestions. The only mistake in the bunch has
been the Eschenbach Beethoven 9, which struck me as bland beyond
belief.

Highlight has been the Bruckner 3 and 5. I'll have to hunt down the
EMI recording of the 4th.
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