Discussion:
Bruckner 7
(too old to reply)
Matthew Silverstein
2004-04-01 21:10:23 UTC
Permalink
Could I have some recommendations for a new recording of Bruckner 7? I have
two: Jochum/BPO (Tahra) and Giulini/VPO (DG). What recording features (in
your opinion) the best combination of conducting, playing, and sound
quality?

Thanks!

Matty
Paul Goldstein
2004-04-01 21:34:49 UTC
Permalink
In article <3z%ac.40$***@newssvr31.news.prodigy.com>, Matthew Silverstein
says...
Post by Matthew Silverstein
Could I have some recommendations for a new recording of Bruckner 7? I have
two: Jochum/BPO (Tahra) and Giulini/VPO (DG). What recording features (in
your opinion) the best combination of conducting, playing, and sound
quality?
Haitink/Concertgebouw ca. 1980 (Philips) and Skrowaczewski/SWF (was Arte Nova).

Paul Goldstein
Bob Harper
2004-04-01 21:51:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Matthew Silverstein
Could I have some recommendations for a new recording of Bruckner 7? I have
two: Jochum/BPO (Tahra) and Giulini/VPO (DG). What recording features (in
your opinion) the best combination of conducting, playing, and sound
quality?
Thanks!
Matty
You'll have to go to Canada or MDT, but IMO the Wand/Berlin performance
is one of the (few) truly great recordings of this work. Sanderling/SWR
on Haenssler is more easily found, and is also extremely fine, but Wand
is worth the extra effort to obtain.

Bob Harper
Matthew Silverstein
2004-04-01 22:15:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bob Harper
You'll have to go to Canada or MDT, but IMO the Wand/Berlin performance
is one of the (few) truly great recordings of this work.
I don't have to go that far. It's available as a (pricey) import at Amazon.

Matty
s***@nospamprovide.net
2004-04-01 22:29:31 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 01 Apr 2004 22:15:23 GMT, "Matthew Silverstein"
Post by Matthew Silverstein
Post by Bob Harper
You'll have to go to Canada or MDT, but IMO the Wand/Berlin performance
is one of the (few) truly great recordings of this work.
I don't have to go that far. It's available as a (pricey) import at Amazon.
Matty
It's worth it...........


S.
Marc Perman
2004-04-02 02:47:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bob Harper
You'll have to go to Canada or MDT, but IMO the Wand/Berlin performance
is one of the (few) truly great recordings of this work. Sanderling/SWR
on Haenssler is more easily found, and is also extremely fine, but Wand
is worth the extra effort to obtain.
The are probably a few more great 7ths. In addition to the aforementioned
Haitink c. 1978 and Skrowaczewski, there's Eichhorn (Camerata),
Jochum/Dresden (EMI), Jochum/VPO ('39, on Tahra), Knappertsbusch ('49 VPO,
on Music & Arts), and probably a couple I'm not remembering since most of my
CDs are still boxed from a recent move.

Marc Perman
Michael Weston
2004-04-02 04:11:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Marc Perman
Post by Bob Harper
You'll have to go to Canada or MDT, but IMO the Wand/Berlin performance
is one of the (few) truly great recordings of this work. Sanderling/SWR
on Haenssler is more easily found, and is also extremely fine, but Wand
is worth the extra effort to obtain.
The are probably a few more great 7ths. In addition to the aforementioned
Haitink c. 1978 and Skrowaczewski, there's Eichhorn (Camerata),
Jochum/Dresden (EMI), Jochum/VPO ('39, on Tahra), Knappertsbusch ('49 VPO,
on Music & Arts), and probably a couple I'm not remembering since most of my
CDs are still boxed from a recent move.
Marc Perman
An excellent list. Don't forget van Beinum on Tahra.
And Furtwangler's Telefunken recording of the adagio is something else-
his live recordings don't have the same morbid ghostliness, if you'll
forgive the expression (Scherchen called Furt's Pastoral "morbid" if I
recall..).
MarkZimmerman
2004-04-01 22:28:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Matthew Silverstein
Could I have some recommendations for a new recording of Bruckner 7? I have
two: Jochum/BPO (Tahra) and Giulini/VPO (DG). What recording features (in
your opinion) the best combination of conducting, playing, and sound
quality?
Thanks!
Matty
I don't know how I'd rate the sound on Karajan's last performance, but the
performance itself is truly amazing.

Best,

Mark Allen Zimmerman * Chicago
Andrew T. Kay
2004-04-02 02:05:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by MarkZimmerman
Post by Matthew Silverstein
Could I have some recommendations for a new recording of Bruckner 7? I have
two: Jochum/BPO (Tahra) and Giulini/VPO (DG). What recording features (in
your opinion) the best combination of conducting, playing, and sound
quality?
Thanks!
Matty
I don't know how I'd rate the sound on Karajan's last performance, but the
performance itself is truly amazing.
Whereas I prefer his earlier one on EMI (197_?), in which I hear a more
compelling combination of sheer tonal beauty and flow of the symphonic
argument than in any other 7th I've heard. Take that for the little it's worth,
though -- I love this symphony, but Bruckner is not among the composers of
whose music I've made a point of investigating dozens of recordings per work.


--Todd K
Michael Weston
2004-04-02 04:08:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by MarkZimmerman
Post by Matthew Silverstein
Could I have some recommendations for a new recording of Bruckner 7? I have
two: Jochum/BPO (Tahra) and Giulini/VPO (DG). What recording features (in
your opinion) the best combination of conducting, playing, and sound
quality?
Thanks!
Matty
I don't know how I'd rate the sound on Karajan's last performance, but the
performance itself is truly amazing.
Best,
Mark Allen Zimmerman * Chicago
I've heard part of this on the radio and found it good, though hardly
revelatory. And I didn't know it was K, so there was no bias. What are
you comparing it to?

MW
Van Eyes
2004-04-01 22:59:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Matthew Silverstein
Could I have some recommendations for a new recording of Bruckner 7? I have
two: Jochum/BPO (Tahra) and Giulini/VPO (DG). What recording features (in
your opinion) the best combination of conducting, playing, and sound
quality?
Klemperer (EMI Legacy)

Regards
--
Posted via Mailgate.ORG Server - http://www.Mailgate.ORG
Simon Roberts
2004-04-02 02:07:52 UTC
Permalink
In article <3z%ac.40$***@newssvr31.news.prodigy.com>, Matthew Silverstein
says...
Post by Matthew Silverstein
Could I have some recommendations for a new recording of Bruckner 7? I have
two: Jochum/BPO (Tahra) and Giulini/VPO (DG). What recording features (in
your opinion) the best combination of conducting, playing, and sound
quality?
Celibidache/EMI. Failing that, Celibidache/EMI. I would also suggest
Celibidache/EMI.

(I should probably warn you that I prefer slow performances of the first two
movements (though of course Celibidache isn't merely slow).)

Simon
Matthew Silverstein
2004-04-02 02:50:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Simon Roberts
Celibidache/EMI. Failing that, Celibidache/EMI. I would also suggest
Celibidache/EMI.
(I should probably warn you that I prefer slow performances of the first two
movements (though of course Celibidache isn't merely slow).)
It's on my list. What would you recommend for a non-slow first movement?

Matty
Simon Roberts
2004-04-02 03:40:58 UTC
Permalink
In article <ky4bc.46671$***@newssvr16.news.prodigy.com>, Matthew
Silverstein says...
Post by Matthew Silverstein
Post by Simon Roberts
Celibidache/EMI. Failing that, Celibidache/EMI. I would also suggest
Celibidache/EMI.
(I should probably warn you that I prefer slow performances of the first
two
Post by Simon Roberts
movements (though of course Celibidache isn't merely slow).)
It's on my list. What would you recommend for a non-slow first movement?
You would be better off asking someone who had such a preference. (I'm not
willing to go quicker than Karajan/EMI or Chailly.) I really dislike Van
Beinum's breezy efforts, so perhaps you should try one of those....

Simon
Michael Weston
2004-04-02 04:12:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Matthew Silverstein
Post by Simon Roberts
Celibidache/EMI. Failing that, Celibidache/EMI. I would also suggest
Celibidache/EMI.
(I should probably warn you that I prefer slow performances of the first
two
Post by Simon Roberts
movements (though of course Celibidache isn't merely slow).)
It's on my list. What would you recommend for a non-slow first movement?
Matty
Gielen? It was too lean and mean for me.
Lionel Tacchini
2004-04-02 07:52:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Matthew Silverstein
Post by Simon Roberts
Celibidache/EMI. Failing that, Celibidache/EMI. I would also suggest
Celibidache/EMI.
(I should probably warn you that I prefer slow performances of the first
two
Post by Simon Roberts
movements (though of course Celibidache isn't merely slow).)
It's on my list. What would you recommend for a non-slow first movement?
Matty
Gielen? It was too lean and mean for me.
Yes, Gielen, by all means. The first movement is an Allegro Moderato,
not an Adagio and the
tempo thoroughly changes the character of the music as well as the tempo
relationships within
this movement, for which Klemperer is an even better guide than Gielen,
with decreasing tempo
from 1st to 3rd subject, as Bruckner asks for, rather than the opposite,
as we too often get.
Klemperer is usually my default recommendation for the 7th, for the
proper flexibility added to the
(almost) proper tempo choices which give the symphony its true and most
convincing face.

Tintner and Wand remain amongst the best of those who choose to keep the
Haas edition.

Lionel Tacchini
Matthew Silverstein
2004-04-02 15:20:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lionel Tacchini
Yes, Gielen, by all means. The first movement is an Allegro
Moderato, not an Adagio and the tempo thoroughly
changes the character of the music as well as the tempo
relationships within this movement, for which Klemperer
is an even better guide than Gielen, with decreasing tempo
from 1st to 3rd subject, as Bruckner asks for, rather than
the opposite, as we too often get.
Is this just Klemperer's EMI recording with the Philharmonia? If so, is this
your prime recommendation (taking into consideration sound and playing) for
a Bruckner 7 that (in your view) gets the tempi right?

I'm asking all of these questions because I'm so new to Bruckner, and I
really have no idea (when it comes to performances) what I like and don't
like. I've found that in Mahler, I like all different sorts of
temo-choices--fast, slow, middle of the road--so long as the music doesn't
sound underplayed. (Thus, Bernstein and Blomstedt are two of my favorite
Mahler 2 conductors.) I love Bernstein's recordings of Mahler 3/vi, but I
also enjoy Jordan's much quicker performance. So, I think I'd like to try
something similar in Bruckner. Fast, slow, and middle-of-the-road, but
nothing that sounds underplayed or sedate (if that makes sense). I don't
think I'm expressing myself well at all. I wish I could describe better what
I want (and what I want to avoid).

Matty
Post by Lionel Tacchini
Klemperer is usually my default recommendation for the 7th, for the
proper flexibility added to the
(almost) proper tempo choices which give the symphony its true and most
convincing face.
Tintner and Wand remain amongst the best of those who choose to keep the
Haas edition.
Lionel Tacchini
Lionel Tacchini
2004-04-02 19:17:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Matthew Silverstein
Post by Lionel Tacchini
Yes, Gielen, by all means. The first movement is an Allegro
Moderato, not an Adagio and the tempo thoroughly
changes the character of the music as well as the tempo
relationships within this movement, for which Klemperer
is an even better guide than Gielen, with decreasing tempo
from 1st to 3rd subject, as Bruckner asks for, rather than
the opposite, as we too often get.
Is this just Klemperer's EMI recording with the Philharmonia?
This is valid for all 6 extant recordings of the work by Klemperer, but
since this is the only one
in stereo and easilly available, it ought to be the one to go for.
Post by Matthew Silverstein
If so, is this
your prime recommendation (taking into consideration sound and playing) for
a Bruckner 7 that (in your view) gets the tempi right?
Yes, with one regret that the opening of the first movement is still on
the slowish side.
As to getting the tempi right, this is not only my view although I do
think this helps a lot making sense
of a basically difficult work, but primarily that of the metronome
markings in the score - they're allowed
to vary according to hall, orchestra and pulse of course, but the
relationships they present have
an equally important role to play and much more stable validity than the
values of the tempi themselves.
Post by Matthew Silverstein
Fast, slow, and middle-of-the-road, but
nothing that sounds underplayed or sedate (if that makes sense).
Keep Gielen for later. His Bruckner is neither underplayed nor sedate
but also not the most immediately
expressive for newcomers. Many find him just dry.
And you should find a way of listening to some Bruckner by Kabasta,
Furtwängler and Knappertsbusch
sometime. Old sound but this speaks a different language. Kabasta is the
key for Bruckner on the fast
side. His recordings of the 4th and 7th are amongst the most obviously
convincing I know.

Lionel Tacchini
jszostaksr
2004-04-04 23:21:50 UTC
Permalink
Jochum and Wand are excellent as is the Klemperer. But Dr. Bruno Walter's
reading is the best and most authentic IMHO.

Jon E. Szostak, Sr.
Post by Lionel Tacchini
Post by Matthew Silverstein
Post by Lionel Tacchini
Yes, Gielen, by all means. The first movement is an Allegro
Moderato, not an Adagio and the tempo thoroughly
changes the character of the music as well as the tempo
relationships within this movement, for which Klemperer
is an even better guide than Gielen, with decreasing tempo
from 1st to 3rd subject, as Bruckner asks for, rather than
the opposite, as we too often get.
Is this just Klemperer's EMI recording with the Philharmonia?
This is valid for all 6 extant recordings of the work by Klemperer, but
since this is the only one
in stereo and easilly available, it ought to be the one to go for.
Post by Matthew Silverstein
If so, is this
your prime recommendation (taking into consideration sound and playing) for
a Bruckner 7 that (in your view) gets the tempi right?
Yes, with one regret that the opening of the first movement is still on
the slowish side.
As to getting the tempi right, this is not only my view although I do
think this helps a lot making sense
of a basically difficult work, but primarily that of the metronome
markings in the score - they're allowed
to vary according to hall, orchestra and pulse of course, but the
relationships they present have
an equally important role to play and much more stable validity than the
values of the tempi themselves.
Post by Matthew Silverstein
Fast, slow, and middle-of-the-road, but
nothing that sounds underplayed or sedate (if that makes sense).
Keep Gielen for later. His Bruckner is neither underplayed nor sedate
but also not the most immediately
expressive for newcomers. Many find him just dry.
And you should find a way of listening to some Bruckner by Kabasta,
Furtwängler and Knappertsbusch
sometime. Old sound but this speaks a different language. Kabasta is the
key for Bruckner on the fast
side. His recordings of the 4th and 7th are amongst the most obviously
convincing I know.
Lionel Tacchini
Lionel Tacchini
2004-04-05 17:57:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by jszostaksr
Jochum and Wand are excellent as is the Klemperer. But Dr. Bruno Walter's
reading is the best and most authentic IMHO.
What makes it more aute´hentic than Jochum's or Klemperer ?

Lionel Tacchini
Curtis Croulet
2004-04-05 18:26:25 UTC
Permalink
--
Curtis Croulet
Temecula, California
33° 27' 59"N, 117° 05' 53"W
Post by jszostaksr
Jochum and Wand are excellent as is the Klemperer. But Dr. Bruno Walter's
reading is the best and most authentic IMHO.
What makes it more auteŽhentic than Jochum's or Klemperer ?
Lionel Tacchini
Curtis Croulet
2004-04-05 18:29:35 UTC
Permalink
"What makes it more auteŽhentic than Jochum's or Klemperer ?"

...Lionel asks, while waiting to pounce on the expected answer.
--
Curtis Croulet
Temecula, California
33° 27' 59"N, 117° 05' 53"W
jszostaksr
2004-04-06 16:31:42 UTC
Permalink
Dr. Walter was one of Bruckner's trusted conductors. I believe he told
Walter and Klemperer that he'd trust whatever they did to his symphonies. I
could be wrong...it's been a long time since I've read about this.

I REALLY like this reading...it simply rings correctly in my ears. The
'Adagio' is very personal in nature...both on the part of the composer and
Walter as conductor. Just my opinion.

Jon E. Szostak, Sr.
Post by jszostaksr
Jochum and Wand are excellent as is the Klemperer. But Dr. Bruno Walter's
reading is the best and most authentic IMHO.
What makes it more auteŽhentic than Jochum's or Klemperer ?
Lionel Tacchini
Matthew Silverstein
2004-04-06 16:40:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by jszostaksr
Dr. Walter was one of Bruckner's trusted conductors. I believe
he told Walter and Klemperer that he'd trust whatever they did
to his symphonies. I could be wrong...it's been a long time since
I've read about this.
I think you are confusing Brucker with Mahler (and Walter and Klemperer with
Mengelberg, perhaps).

Matty
s***@earthlink.net
2004-04-06 16:55:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by jszostaksr
Dr. Walter was one of Bruckner's trusted conductors. I believe he told
Walter and Klemperer that he'd trust whatever they did to his symphonies. I
could be wrong...it's been a long time since I've read about this.
You're not wrong. It's the details that need rehashing. It wasn't
Bruckner, but Mahler, and it wasn't Klemperer but Mengelberg.

Well, given that Bruckner died when Klemperer was a teenager and Walter
barely not a teenager anymore, what can I say? kudos to them!
<friendly sarcasm mode off>
Post by jszostaksr
I REALLY like this reading...it simply rings correctly in my ears. The
'Adagio' is very personal in nature...both on the part of the composer and
Walter as conductor. Just my opinion.
Fair thing to feel, I'd say.

regards,
SG
Paul Goldstein
2004-04-06 16:45:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by jszostaksr
Dr. Walter was one of Bruckner's trusted conductors. I believe he told
Walter and Klemperer that he'd trust whatever they did to his symphonies. I
could be wrong...it's been a long time since I've read about this.
I believe you are confusing Bruckner with Mahler. Bruno was but a lad when old
Anton met his maker.

Paul Goldstein
Richard Schultz
2004-04-08 04:24:07 UTC
Permalink
In article <***@drn.newsguy.com>, Paul Goldstein <***@newsguy.com> wrote:
: In article <OXAcc.198185$***@attbi_s53>, jszostaksr says...

:>Dr. Walter was one of Bruckner's trusted conductors. I believe he told
:>Walter and Klemperer that he'd trust whatever they did to his symphonies. I
:>could be wrong...it's been a long time since I've read about this.
:
: I believe you are confusing Bruckner with Mahler. Bruno was but a lad when
: old Anton met his maker.

If you consider a 20-year-old "but a lad."

-----
Richard Schultz ***@mail.biu.ac.il
Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel
Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University
-----
"Contrariwise," continued Tweedledee, "if it was so, it might be, and
if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic."
Paul Goldstein
2004-04-08 15:29:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Richard Schultz
:>Dr. Walter was one of Bruckner's trusted conductors. I believe he told
:>Walter and Klemperer that he'd trust whatever they did to his symphonies. I
:>could be wrong...it's been a long time since I've read about this.
: I believe you are confusing Bruckner with Mahler. Bruno was but a lad when
: old Anton met his maker.
If you consider a 20-year-old "but a lad."
Yes, I certainly do.

Paul Goldstein
Roland van Gaalen
2004-04-09 15:17:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul Goldstein
Post by Richard Schultz
:>Dr. Walter was one of Bruckner's trusted conductors. I believe he told
:>Walter and Klemperer that he'd trust whatever they did to his symphonies. I
:>could be wrong...it's been a long time since I've read about this.
: I believe you are confusing Bruckner with Mahler. Bruno was but a lad when
: old Anton met his maker.
If you consider a 20-year-old "but a lad."
Yes, I certainly do.
<< "A dream of form in days of thought", -- who is it who says that? I
forget, but it is what Dorian Gray has been to me. The merely visible
presence of this lad, -- for he seems to me little more than a lad, though
he really is over twenty, his merely visible presence, -- [...] the passion
of the romantic spirit, all the perfection of the spirit that is Greek. The
harmony of soul and body, -- how much that is! We in our madness have
separated the two, and have invented a realism that is bestian, an ideality
that is void.>> I was just a lad when I first read this book, and I must
read it again.

Roland van Gaalen
Amsterdam
E-mail: r.p.vangaalenATchello.nl (AT=@)
Roland van Gaalen
2004-04-09 15:21:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul Goldstein
Post by Richard Schultz
:>Dr. Walter was one of Bruckner's trusted conductors. I believe he told
:>Walter and Klemperer that he'd trust whatever they did to his symphonies. I
:>could be wrong...it's been a long time since I've read about this.
: I believe you are confusing Bruckner with Mahler. Bruno was but a lad when
: old Anton met his maker.
If you consider a 20-year-old "but a lad."
Yes, I certainly do.
<< "A dream of form in days of thought", -- who is it who says that? I
forget, but it is what Dorian Gray has been to me. The merely visible
presence of this lad, -- for he seems to me little more than a lad, though
he really is over twenty, his merely visible presence, -- [...] the passion
of the romantic spirit, all the perfection of the spirit that is Greek. The
harmony of soul and body, -- how much that is! We in our madness have
separated the two, and have invented a realism that is bestial, an ideality
that is void.>> I was just a lad when I first read this book, and I must
read it again.

Roland van Gaalen
Amsterdam
E-mail: r.p.vangaalenATchello.nl (AT=@)

Lionel Tacchini
2004-04-07 09:27:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by jszostaksr
Dr. Walter was one of Bruckner's trusted conductors.
Bruckner never heard Walter conduct his music. I don't think they
ever met.
Post by jszostaksr
I believe he told
Walter and Klemperer that he'd trust whatever they did to his symphonies. I
could be wrong...it's been a long time since I've read about this.
Mahler said this about Mengelberg.
Both Mengelberg's and Walter's recordings of Mahler's 4th can make
serious claims of authenticity on performance style.

Walter's conducting of Bruckner's music, however, was more personal
(and I would add, in a very interesting way) than authentic if the term
is to refer to the way Bruckner's music was conducted in the 20s-30s,
and what can be read in the scores.

By the 1920s, there were already serious differences in conception
between Bruckner conductors. The first movement of the 7th, for
instance, could already vary in tempo between 17 and 23 mn, that of the
3rd symphony between 19 and 25 and the Finale of the 8th was already
being done much faster that the score suggests, with recorded timings
below 21 mn (the score explicitely calls for a broad, solemn opening
an a 3rd subject at the same tempo which, when observed, bring the
movement around 25 mn).
Tempo variations within movements have also been a subject of
discussion. A recommendation in a book from 1922 that tempo should
only be changed when moving from one section to the next within a
movement (ex: from 1st to 2nd subject) is already an information that
some conductors had developped more interventionist habbits by that
time.

Lionel Tacchini
jszostaksr
2004-04-07 21:25:57 UTC
Permalink
Behind my very white beard...I am very red-faced...all of you are...of
course...correct. I did confuse Bruckner with Mahler...thanks for pointing
that out.

Wasn't there some kind of difference with a cymbal crash in one of
Bruckner's symphonies? I seem to remember two recordings from the late 50's
of early 60's that differed in that one did have the cymbal while the other
did not. Walter and Klemperer? I honestly can't remember...my memory is
not what it used to be I'm afraid.

Jon E. Szostak, Sr.
Post by Lionel Tacchini
Post by jszostaksr
Dr. Walter was one of Bruckner's trusted conductors.
Bruckner never heard Walter conduct his music. I don't think they
ever met.
Post by jszostaksr
I believe he told
Walter and Klemperer that he'd trust whatever they did to his symphonies. I
could be wrong...it's been a long time since I've read about this.
Mahler said this about Mengelberg.
Both Mengelberg's and Walter's recordings of Mahler's 4th can make
serious claims of authenticity on performance style.
Walter's conducting of Bruckner's music, however, was more personal
(and I would add, in a very interesting way) than authentic if the term
is to refer to the way Bruckner's music was conducted in the 20s-30s,
and what can be read in the scores.
By the 1920s, there were already serious differences in conception
between Bruckner conductors. The first movement of the 7th, for
instance, could already vary in tempo between 17 and 23 mn, that of the
3rd symphony between 19 and 25 and the Finale of the 8th was already
being done much faster that the score suggests, with recorded timings
below 21 mn (the score explicitely calls for a broad, solemn opening
an a 3rd subject at the same tempo which, when observed, bring the
movement around 25 mn).
Tempo variations within movements have also been a subject of
discussion. A recommendation in a book from 1922 that tempo should
only be changed when moving from one section to the next within a
movement (ex: from 1st to 2nd subject) is already an information that
some conductors had developped more interventionist habbits by that
time.
Lionel Tacchini
Ramon Khalona
2004-04-07 16:34:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by jszostaksr
Dr. Walter was one of Bruckner's trusted conductors. I believe he told
Walter and Klemperer that he'd trust whatever they did to his symphonies. I
could be wrong...it's been a long time since I've read about this.
You must be thinking about Mahler, not Bruckner. When Bruckner died
(1896) Klemperer was 11 years old and Walter was just 20 and bouncing around
various opera houses as coach and then conductor (he met Mahler in 1894
as his assistant in Hamburg, IIANM). It is quite likely that Bruckner
never met Walter, let alone Klemperer.

RK
Ramon Khalona
2004-04-05 22:57:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by jszostaksr
Jochum and Wand are excellent as is the Klemperer. But Dr. Bruno Walter's
reading is the best and most authentic IMHO.
Yes, what is "authentic" about it? IMO, the 7th is the most
disapointing of Walter's Bruckner recordings, a polar opposite to his
NBC 4th, despite the latter's poor sound. In these days of high gas
prices, it wouldn't be inappropriate to describe his 7th as low
octane. His orchestra doesn't help either.

Although most of us around here are convinced that there is no such
thing as a "best" recording of anything, if I had to pick just one to
keep right now, it would probably be Jochum's MONO recording with the
BPO (released by Tahra). You might get a different answer tomorrow
though :-)

RK
Matthew Silverstein
2004-04-06 04:46:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ramon Khalona
Although most of us around here are convinced that there is no such
thing as a "best" recording of anything, if I had to pick just one to
keep right now, it would probably be Jochum's MONO recording with the
BPO (released by Tahra). You might get a different answer tomorrow
though :-)
I already have (and enjoy) the Jochum/BPO recording on Tahra. What would
your recommendation be for a recording in modern (not necessarily digital)
sound?

Matty
Ramon Khalona
2004-04-06 16:20:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Matthew Silverstein
Post by Ramon Khalona
Although most of us around here are convinced that there is no such
thing as a "best" recording of anything, if I had to pick just one to
keep right now, it would probably be Jochum's MONO recording with the
BPO (released by Tahra). You might get a different answer tomorrow
though :-)
I already have (and enjoy) the Jochum/BPO recording on Tahra. What would
your recommendation be for a recording in modern (not necessarily digital)
sound?
A few that come to mind:

- Rosbaud/SWF on Vox: Even though it's early stereo (1957, IIRC), the
sound is very good for its period. He uses the Haas edition and it's
one of the best recordings. This is a time-tested favorite for a
couple of generations of Bruckner lovers. In Vox's packaging you get
an excellent Mahler Das Lied as well, both for less than a full-price
disc. Don't miss it.

- Haitink/COA on Philips: His second recording on Philips, not the one
whose video has been posted on this NG. Excellent playing and sound.

- Sinopoli/Dresden on DG: I have to own up to my bias that I love the
sound of the Dresden orchestra, but Sinopoli achieves moments of
heartbreaking beauty.
The playing is superlative. I don't know if this one is still in
print, but it's well worth seeking.

RK
Matthew Silverstein
2004-04-06 16:40:51 UTC
Permalink
RK wrote:

[snip]

Thanks for the recommendations. I've already ordered the Rosbaud, but the
Haitink seems to be out of print. Sinopoli sounds interesting, and I too
love the sound of the Staatskapelle Dresden.

Matty
Paul Goldstein
2004-04-06 17:08:54 UTC
Permalink
In article <n4Bcc.51381$***@newssvr16.news.prodigy.com>, Matthew
Silverstein says...
Post by Matthew Silverstein
[snip]
Thanks for the recommendations. I've already ordered the Rosbaud, but the
Haitink seems to be out of print. Sinopoli sounds interesting, and I too
love the sound of the Staatskapelle Dresden.
The Sinopoli (which I haven't heard) is available from iClassics on demand.

Paul Goldstein
Marc Perman
2004-04-07 00:53:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ramon Khalona
- Rosbaud/SWF on Vox: Even though it's early stereo (1957, IIRC), the
sound is very good for its period. He uses the Haas edition and it's
one of the best recordings. This is a time-tested favorite for a
couple of generations of Bruckner lovers. In Vox's packaging you get
an excellent Mahler Das Lied as well, both for less than a full-price
disc. Don't miss it.
I just found the 2002 Tuxedo release of the Rosbaud B7th, which is mono, on
Academy's bargain wall. I wonder how it compares sound-wise to the Vox
(beyond the mono/stereo difference).

Marc Perman
Matthew Silverstein
2004-04-07 03:13:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Marc Perman
I just found the 2002 Tuxedo release of the Rosbaud B7th, which is mono, on
Academy's bargain wall. I wonder how it compares sound-wise to the Vox
(beyond the mono/stereo difference).
For $8, you can find out and let us now!

http://store.yahoo.com/graveyard/hanrosconmah.html

Matty
jszostaksr
2004-04-07 21:29:30 UTC
Permalink
if I had to pick just one to
keep right now, it would probably be Jochum's MONO recording with the
BPO (released by Tahra). You might get a different answer tomorrow
though :-)
RK
------------

I know...that happens every once in awhile...not sure if it's personal
preference or the choice of beer with one's hamburger.

Jon E. Szostak, Sr.
Post by Ramon Khalona
Post by jszostaksr
Jochum and Wand are excellent as is the Klemperer. But Dr. Bruno Walter's
reading is the best and most authentic IMHO.
Yes, what is "authentic" about it? IMO, the 7th is the most
disapointing of Walter's Bruckner recordings, a polar opposite to his
NBC 4th, despite the latter's poor sound. In these days of high gas
prices, it wouldn't be inappropriate to describe his 7th as low
octane. His orchestra doesn't help either.
Although most of us around here are convinced that there is no such
thing as a "best" recording of anything, if I had to pick just one to
keep right now, it would probably be Jochum's MONO recording with the
BPO (released by Tahra). You might get a different answer tomorrow
though :-)
RK
Sol L. Siegel
2004-04-02 04:16:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Matthew Silverstein
What would you recommend for a non-slow first movement?
The Beethoven 7th.

-Sol Siegel, Philadelphia, PA
--------------------
"I really liked it. Even the music was good." - Yogi Berra, after seeing
"Tosca"
--------------------
(Remove "exitspam" from the end of my e-mail address to respond.)
Lionel Tacchini
2004-04-02 07:53:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sol L. Siegel
Post by Matthew Silverstein
What would you recommend for a non-slow first movement?
The Beethoven 7th.
Bruckner's 7th will do just fine when played at the indicated tempi as well.

Lionel Tacchini
sorach
2004-04-03 04:32:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Matthew Silverstein
What would you recommend for a non-slow first movement?
Furtwanger EMI
Karajan BPO
Chailly DECCA
Curtis Croulet
2004-04-03 06:08:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by sorach
Post by Matthew Silverstein
What would you recommend for a non-slow first movement?
Furtwanger EMI
*** Karajan BPO ***
*****Chailly DECCA*****
Huh?
--
Curtis Croulet
Temecula, California
33° 27' 59"N, 117° 05' 53"W
Lionel Tacchini
2004-04-03 08:43:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by sorach
Post by Matthew Silverstein
What would you recommend for a non-slow first movement?
Furtwanger EMI
*** Karajan BPO ***
*****Chailly DECCA*****
Huh?
No, I wouldn't take the last two either.

Lionel Tacchini
Curtis Croulet
2004-04-02 05:15:32 UTC
Permalink
Van Beinum rates highly in this corner, also Rosbaud. Rudolf did a fine one
on American Decca in the 1960s (Cincinnati Sym), but I don't know if it's
ever been on commercial CD. There's a live Klemperer from 1965 that's as
fine a performance as I've ever heard, but I don't know if it's ever been
available commercially, either. I like a swift 1st mvt, and I think it's
what Bruckner expected. Klemp isn't quite as quick as the others, but it's
more vital than the late date in his career would imply. I also like some
attention to the tempo nuances indicated in the Gutmann and Nowak scores.
Rosbaud is as pure a Haas as you're ever likely to hear, so of course he
ignores the tempo variations, but since he handles the rest so well, I'll
forgive him that.
--
Curtis Croulet
Temecula, California
33° 27' 59"N, 117° 05' 53"W
Matthew Silverstein
2004-04-02 15:13:46 UTC
Permalink
Curtis wrote:

[snip]

So what would you overall recommendation be for a performance that includes
a swift opening movement?

Matty
Curtis Croulet
2004-04-02 20:57:57 UTC
Permalink
The ones I mentioned all qualify, with the addition of Walter, Gielen,
Matacic and Pesek. Most of the faster ones are pre-stereo. Walter, like
Rosbaud, is also pure Haas, and he also omits the percussion in the adagio.
The percussion isn't in the Haas score (he explicitly rejected it), but some
Haas conductors play it anyway, e.g. Karajan. Some (Gielen, Blomstedt) dump
the cymbols and triangle but keep the timpani. A few recordings play the
standard Gutmann/Nowak percussion and add a spurious timpani crescendo (Van
Beinum, Barenboim CSO, one of the Furtwaenglers).
--
Curtis Croulet
Temecula, California
33° 27' 59"N, 117° 05' 53"W
Lionel Tacchini
2004-04-03 08:42:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Curtis Croulet
The ones I mentioned all qualify, with the addition of Walter, Gielen,
Matacic and Pesek.
I like Pesek's 7th. I wish he would do more Bruckner.

Lionel Tacchini
MarkZimmerman
2004-04-02 15:48:16 UTC
Permalink
Actually I have the following recordings and love them all:

Chailly / Radio Symphony Orchestra Berlin
Karajan / Vienna Philharmonic
Tintner / Royal Scottish National Orchestra
Celibidache / Munich Philharmonic

The best sound is probably from either the Chailly or the Celibidache, although
the
Tintner too has lovely sound. So all have good sound with Karajan at the
bottom of the list. But, Karajan probably has the best performance, but just
by a smidgen.
Best,

Mark Allen Zimmerman * Chicago
Matthew Silverstein
2004-04-02 04:07:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Simon Roberts
Celibidache/EMI. Failing that, Celibidache/EMI. I would also suggest
Celibidache/EMI.
How does that compare with his DG recording? Or his DG recording?

Matty
Simon Roberts
2004-04-02 16:02:43 UTC
Permalink
In article <JF5bc.5886$***@newssvr15.news.prodigy.com>, Matthew Silverstein
says...
Post by Matthew Silverstein
Post by Simon Roberts
Celibidache/EMI. Failing that, Celibidache/EMI. I would also suggest
Celibidache/EMI.
How does that compare with his DG recording? Or his DG recording?
Far superior in every way. Of course, many may disagree re the respective
merits of the interpretations - the DG features fairly average tempi and I don't
hear anything really distinctive about it, good or bad - but I doubt there's
much disagreement re the superiority of the orchestral playing and recorded
sound of the EMI.

Doubtless by coincidence EMI has done rather well by this symphony (just as RCA
has by Brahms' cto 2) - in addition to Celibidache I'm fond of Rattle, Jochum
and, to a lesser extent, Karajan and Klemperer.

Simon
MarkZimmerman
2004-04-02 15:38:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Simon Roberts
(I should probably warn you that I prefer slow performances of the first two
movements (though of course Celibidache isn't merely slow).)
Simon
You're right. Celi isn't slow he's heavenly!
Best,

Mark Allen Zimmerman * Chicago
Philip Edwards
2004-04-02 03:31:37 UTC
Permalink
I would second the Karajan on DG (his last ever recording) but would also
recommend the highly regarded account of Eduard van Beinum with the
Amsterdam Concertgebouw, recorded for Philips in 1953. Might be hard to come
by now though. The latter would be a Desert Island Disc for me (I have my
own rules on my island and am allowed 3 works by all composers. 8 discs is
ridiculous amount these days when you consider the wealth of newly recorded
repertoire!).
Hope this helps.
Regards, Phil.

"Matthew Silverstein" <***@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:3z%ac.40$***@newssvr31.news.prodigy.com...
Could I have some recommendations for a new recording of Bruckner 7? I have
two: Jochum/BPO (Tahra) and Giulini/VPO (DG). What recording features (in
your opinion) the best combination of conducting, playing, and sound
quality?

Thanks!

Matty
Michael Weston
2004-04-02 04:07:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Matthew Silverstein
Could I have some recommendations for a new recording of Bruckner 7? I have
two: Jochum/BPO (Tahra) and Giulini/VPO (DG). What recording features (in
your opinion) the best combination of conducting, playing, and sound
quality?
Thanks!
Matty
I've got a lot of 7's and have done a number of blind tests.
Haitink/RCO from the late 70's has always come up very strongly, if not
on top, and I'm not a Haitink devotee. The recordings that Philips was
doing at the Concertgebouw around this time, whether digital or analogue
were all impressive in terms of recorded sound- beautiful yet biting and
brutal when necessary. Earlier recordings dended to put the orchestra
more distant and soften things in a resonant bloom.

I also rec. Blomstedt / Dresden.

Michael
Sol L. Siegel
2004-04-02 04:21:09 UTC
Permalink
What recording features (in your opinion) the best combination
of conducting, playing, and sound quality?
With the percussion at the climax of the Adagio: Karajan/VPO
Without: Sanderling or (aging sonics aside) Rosbaud

Celibidache/EMI is worth seeking out, though you'll essentially
be paying extra for the glacial Te Deum that comes with it.
There's also Skrowaczewski, if you can find it, and Klemperer,
if you can take older sonics. All of these include the cymbal crash.

-Sol Siegel, Philadelphia, PA
--------------------
"I really liked it. Even the music was good." - Yogi Berra, after seeing
"Tosca"
--------------------
(Remove "exitspam" from the end of my e-mail address to respond.)
Lionel Tacchini
2004-04-02 10:53:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sol L. Siegel
What recording features (in your opinion) the best combination
of conducting, playing, and sound quality?
With the percussion at the climax of the Adagio: Karajan/VPO
The majority of recordings have it. It's in the first printed score from
1885 and in Nowak's
edition from 1954, who found no evidence of Bruckner ever rejecting it.
He actually liked the idea enough to repeat this in the Adagio of his
next symphony
(2 cymbal strokes there, 6 in the first version - some of the remaining
ones were recycled
by F. Schalk in the Finale of the 5th).
The work was first conceived without and this works too, although with
different effect.
Post by Sol L. Siegel
Without: Sanderling or (aging sonics aside) Rosbaud
Sanderling is very slow and steady, Rosbaud lighter and more expressive.
Tintner and Wand also do it without.
Post by Sol L. Siegel
Celibidache/EMI is worth seeking out, though you'll essentially
be paying extra for the glacial Te Deum that comes with it.
And of course, it is "what Celibidache made of Bruckner's music", which
ought to be considered
as a different body of works in its own right. Love it or loathe it but
calling it "Bruckner" is
adventurous. The drift from the original, inevitable to various extents
in any performing art, is here
as far as it gets into the fascinating realm of creative interpretation.
Post by Sol L. Siegel
There's also Skrowaczewski, if you can find it,
Skrowaczewski will not bring a much different view from Jochum's, whereby
the latter is more directly dramatic in his BPO/DG recording.

Lionel Tacchini
Alex
2004-04-02 15:23:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Matthew Silverstein
Could I have some recommendations for a new recording of Bruckner 7? I have
two: Jochum/BPO (Tahra) and Giulini/VPO (DG). What recording features (in
your opinion) the best combination of conducting, playing, and sound
quality?
The Giulini you have is very good of course.

VPO/Karajan DG Karajan Gold

Harnoncourt for something different, not quite as good as his 9th though.
Lionel Tacchini
2004-04-02 18:58:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alex
Post by Matthew Silverstein
Could I have some recommendations for a new recording of Bruckner 7? I
have
Post by Matthew Silverstein
two: Jochum/BPO (Tahra) and Giulini/VPO (DG). What recording features (in
your opinion) the best combination of conducting, playing, and sound
quality?
The Giulini you have is very good of course.
VPO/Karajan DG Karajan Gold
Harnoncourt for something different, not quite as good as his 9th though.
Much better than his 9th, which lacks tension and of which the first
movement doesn't really hang together.

Lionel Tacchini
Michael Weston
2004-04-03 15:36:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lionel Tacchini
Post by Alex
Harnoncourt for something different, not quite as good as his 9th though.
Much better than his 9th, which lacks tension and of which the first
movement doesn't really hang together.
Lionel Tacchini
??? Not what I heard at all. Will have to recheck.
Lionel Tacchini
2004-04-03 19:17:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Michael Weston
Post by Lionel Tacchini
Post by Alex
Harnoncourt for something different, not quite as good as his 9th though.
Much better than his 9th, which lacks tension and of which the first
movement doesn't really hang together.
Lionel Tacchini
??? Not what I heard at all. Will have to recheck.
I tried and tried and tried and it still doesn't work. The parts don't
want to sum up to a whole.
There is tension in places but it fails to build up and there are
passages in between where
the phrasings feel more like just taking a walk than anything else.

Lionel Tacchini
MarkZimmerman
2004-04-05 13:13:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alex
VPO/Karajan DG Karajan Gold
I know I've already said it, but am willing ot repeat myself, the Karajan
"Final Recording" of htis peice is white hot and probably one of the best
recordings of the 7th out there.
Best,

Mark Allen Zimmerman * Chicago
Philip Edwards
2004-04-06 02:31:47 UTC
Permalink
"Matthew Silverstein" <***@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:3z%ac.40$***@newssvr31.news.prodigy.com...
Could I have some recommendations for a new recording of Bruckner 7? I have
two: Jochum/BPO (Tahra) and Giulini/VPO (DG). What recording features (in
your opinion) the best combination of conducting, playing, and sound
quality?

Thanks!

Matty

Now I have reviewed the recordings I have, I would say Tintners is a rather
harsh recording. The brass seems too forward (like the Soviets, but in tune)
and there could have been more warmth from the strings as could the whole
recording. It was like someone shoving it in front of your face and shouting
'ERE, DYA LIKE THIS THEN!
I was not displeased with Jochum (stereo) and Rattle's recording had good
balance and warmth. One I did not listen to was my second favourite, Karajan
(top marks go to Beinum despite slightly restricted mono sound). So that's
what I'm going to bed with!.
Good night!
Phil.
Continue reading on narkive:
Loading...