Discussion:
Debussy's "La Mer" 3rd mvt. Fanfares
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Kerrison
2018-08-18 21:17:51 UTC
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The new (September) Gramophone features a survey by Rob Cowan of recordings of "La Mer" that raises a question doubtless touched on here before but still interesting nonetheless. It concerns the brass "fanfares" which suddenly come in towards the end of the finale that are heard on several recordings but not on most others.

They were in the first printed edition of the score but omitted by Debussy in in the reprint for reasons which are not apparently very clear. Cowan writes that their excision "is a great shame, as they suggest a desperate alarm amid the storm."

For easy reference, try Munch and his Bostonians on this You Tube upload from his 1957 recording at about 21 minutes in ...



This upload is of just the finale with Stokowski and the London Symphony where the fanfares come in at about 7 minutes in ...



In this 'live' Boulez/NYPO DVD, he leaves them out, at about 22 minutes in ...



There's little doubt that once you've heard them, you miss them when they're omitted. So whose versions do you have in your collection and which of them have those striking fanfares near the end of the finale and which do not?
g***@gmail.com
2018-08-19 05:17:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kerrison
The new (September) Gramophone features a survey by Rob Cowan of recordings of "La Mer" that raises a question doubtless touched on here before but still interesting nonetheless. It concerns the brass "fanfares" which suddenly come in towards the end of the finale that are heard on several recordings but not on most others.
They were in the first printed edition of the score but omitted by Debussy in in the reprint for reasons which are not apparently very clear. Cowan writes that their excision "is a great shame, as they suggest a desperate alarm amid the storm."
For easy reference, try Munch and his Bostonians on this You Tube upload from his 1957 recording at about 21 minutes in ...
http://youtu.be/BppVlpagweo
This upload is of just the finale with Stokowski and the London Symphony where the fanfares come in at about 7 minutes in ...
http://youtu.be/965cTnY--3I
In this 'live' Boulez/NYPO DVD, he leaves them out, at about 22 minutes in ...
http://youtu.be/1mGqLaD_zaU
There's little doubt that once you've heard them, you miss them when they're omitted. So whose versions do you have in your collection and which of them have those striking fanfares near the end of the finale and which do not?
The following may be of interest:

http://www.orchestralibrary.com/Nieweg%20Charts/Debussy-LaMer1905BrassInserts.pdf
Kerrison
2018-08-19 09:37:41 UTC
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Post by g***@gmail.com
Post by Kerrison
There's little doubt that once you've heard them, you miss them when they're omitted. So whose versions do you have in your collection and which of them have those striking fanfares near the end of the finale and which do not?
http://www.orchestralibrary.com/Nieweg%20Charts/Debussy-LaMer1905BrassInserts.pdf
I don't know about modern recordings but for older ones, the conductors who adopted the fanfares included Ansermet, Karajan, Monteux, Reiner, Ashkenazy, Haitink and Tilson Thomas, while those who did not included Toscanini, Koussevitzky, Barbirolli, Giulini, Szell, Ormandy and Bernstein. Cowan's survey seems to imply that it's more or less 50-50 as to who includes them and who does not, so you pays your money and takes your choice!
RiRiIII
2018-08-19 11:07:11 UTC
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Very interesting thread.

Krivine's brand new recording for Erato is without these fanfares, but includes a 2min track demonstrating the excerpt with the fanfares.
RiRiIII
2018-08-22 20:16:50 UTC
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Post by Kerrison
Post by g***@gmail.com
Post by Kerrison
There's little doubt that once you've heard them, you miss them when they're omitted. So whose versions do you have in your collection and which of them have those striking fanfares near the end of the finale and which do not?
http://www.orchestralibrary.com/Nieweg%20Charts/Debussy-LaMer1905BrassInserts.pdf
I don't know about modern recordings but for older ones, the conductors who adopted the fanfares included Ansermet, Karajan, Monteux, Reiner, Ashkenazy, Haitink and Tilson Thomas, while those who did not included Toscanini, Koussevitzky, Barbirolli, Giulini, Szell, Ormandy and Bernstein. Cowan's survey seems to imply that it's more or less 50-50 as to who includes them and who does not, so you pays your money and takes your choice!
Side note: Mitropoulos includes the fanfares in his NYPO recording.
Kerrison
2018-08-23 05:16:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by RiRiIII
Post by Kerrison
I don't know about modern recordings but for older ones, the conductors who adopted the fanfares included Ansermet, Karajan, Monteux, Reiner, Ashkenazy, Haitink and Tilson Thomas, while those who did not included Toscanini, Koussevitzky, Barbirolli, Giulini, Szell, Ormandy and Bernstein. Cowan's survey seems to imply that it's more or less 50-50 as to who includes them and who does not, so you pays your money and takes your choice!
Side note: Mitropoulos includes the fanfares in his NYPO recording.
Thanks. He does indeed, as readily confirmed by its appearance on You Tube where its had only 144 views in the last three years. Any idea of the recording date? ...



Oddly however, the same fanfares passage, which is scored for trumpets and horns, is here played on the horns only in the Mitropoulos / Cologne Radio Symphony Orchestra performance, also undated, at just after 6 minutes in, whereas the trumpets are clearly audible in his NYPO recording. Very strange ...


RiRiIII
2018-08-23 05:52:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kerrison
Post by RiRiIII
Post by Kerrison
I don't know about modern recordings but for older ones, the conductors who adopted the fanfares included Ansermet, Karajan, Monteux, Reiner, Ashkenazy, Haitink and Tilson Thomas, while those who did not included Toscanini, Koussevitzky, Barbirolli, Giulini, Szell, Ormandy and Bernstein. Cowan's survey seems to imply that it's more or less 50-50 as to who includes them and who does not, so you pays your money and takes your choice!
Side note: Mitropoulos includes the fanfares in his NYPO recording.
Thanks. He does indeed, as readily confirmed by its appearance on You Tube where its had only 144 views in the last three years. Any idea of the recording date? ...
http://youtu.be/i6_Ouq6ic4g
Oddly however, the same fanfares passage, which is scored for trumpets and horns, is here played on the horns only in the Mitropoulos / Cologne Radio Symphony Orchestra performance, also undated, at just after 6 minutes in, whereas the trumpets are clearly audible in his NYPO recording. Very strange ...
http://youtu.be/l3bSiJf7oKU
NYPO recording: ML 4434, 27 November 1950, 30th Str. Studios
https://www.discogs.com/Debussy-La-MerIberia/release/2843773

Nice find regarding the Cologne performance.
RiRiIII
2018-08-23 05:54:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by RiRiIII
Post by Kerrison
Post by RiRiIII
Post by Kerrison
I don't know about modern recordings but for older ones, the conductors who adopted the fanfares included Ansermet, Karajan, Monteux, Reiner, Ashkenazy, Haitink and Tilson Thomas, while those who did not included Toscanini, Koussevitzky, Barbirolli, Giulini, Szell, Ormandy and Bernstein. Cowan's survey seems to imply that it's more or less 50-50 as to who includes them and who does not, so you pays your money and takes your choice!
Side note: Mitropoulos includes the fanfares in his NYPO recording.
Thanks. He does indeed, as readily confirmed by its appearance on You Tube where its had only 144 views in the last three years. Any idea of the recording date? ...
http://youtu.be/i6_Ouq6ic4g
Oddly however, the same fanfares passage, which is scored for trumpets and horns, is here played on the horns only in the Mitropoulos / Cologne Radio Symphony Orchestra performance, also undated, at just after 6 minutes in, whereas the trumpets are clearly audible in his NYPO recording. Very strange ...
http://youtu.be/l3bSiJf7oKU
NYPO recording: ML 4434, 27 November 1950, 30th Str. Studios
https://www.discogs.com/Debussy-La-MerIberia/release/2843773
Nice find regarding the Cologne performance.
... which was recorded on 24 October 1960.
Kerrison
2018-08-23 17:40:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by RiRiIII
Post by RiRiIII
Post by Kerrison
Post by RiRiIII
Side note: Mitropoulos includes the fanfares in his NYPO recording.
Thanks. He does indeed, as readily confirmed by its appearance on You Tube where its had only 144 views in the last three years. Any idea of the recording date? ...
http://youtu.be/i6_Ouq6ic4g
Oddly however, the same fanfares passage, which is scored for trumpets and horns, is here played on the horns only in the Mitropoulos / Cologne Radio Symphony Orchestra performance, also undated, at just after 6 minutes in, whereas the trumpets are clearly audible in his NYPO recording. Very strange ...
http://youtu.be/l3bSiJf7oKU
NYPO recording: ML 4434, 27 November 1950, 30th Str. Studios
https://www.discogs.com/Debussy-La-MerIberia/release/2843773
Nice find regarding the Cologne performance.
... which was recorded on 24 October 1960.
I wonder if anyone has made a complete "La Mer" discography, starting with the first 78s under Piero Coppola, all the way up to the present time, indicating which of the recordings include the fanfares (Ansermet et. al.) and which do not (Toscanini et. al.). It would be interesting to compare the list of "withs" and the list of "withouts" and see which list is the longest!
Herman
2018-08-24 07:07:45 UTC
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Post by Kerrison
I wonder if anyone has made a complete "La Mer" discography, starting with the first 78s under Piero Coppola, all the way up to the present time, indicating which of the recordings include the fanfares (Ansermet et. al.) and which do not (Toscanini et. al.). It would be interesting to compare the list of "withs" and the list of "withouts" and see which list is the longest!
Wouldn't that person have to be crazy?
g***@gmail.com
2018-08-25 06:26:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Herman
Post by Kerrison
I wonder if anyone has made a complete "La Mer" discography, starting with the first 78s under Piero Coppola, all the way up to the present time, indicating which of the recordings include the fanfares (Ansermet et. al.) and which do not (Toscanini et. al.). It would be interesting to compare the list of "withs" and the list of "withouts" and see which list is the longest!
Wouldn't that person have to be crazy?
I can hardly believe it, but I am almost tempted to agree with Herman:

- The sensitivity of men to small matters, and their indifference to great ones, indicates a strange inversion.

Blaise Pascal

But in the 21st-c., has our awe of historical composers and our desire (obsession?) to discover their 'real' intent blinded us to something?:

- Every tradition grows ever more venerable the more remote its origin, the more confused that origin is. The reverence due to it increases from generation to generation. The tradition finally becomes holy and inspires awe.

Nietzsche

Were historical composers regarded as high priests by contemporary conductors or were their relationships almost collegial?

Didn't Toscanini go to Debussy with 'suggestions' as to how to 'improve' LA MER?

Did conductors 'worship' the composers of their time (as we now do) or did they view contemporary composers more open to revisions?

And were composers more receptive to different approaches offered by conductors and viewed conductors as almost collaborative partners?
operafan
2018-08-24 21:53:06 UTC
Permalink
On Sunday, August 19, 2018 at 5:37:44 AM UTC-4, Kerrison wrote:
Add van Beinum/RCO to the list of recordings with the fanfares.
Post by Kerrison
I don't know about modern recordings but for older ones, the conductors who adopted the fanfares included Ansermet, Karajan, Monteux, Reiner, Ashkenazy, Haitink and Tilson Thomas, while those who did not included Toscanini, Koussevitzky, Barbirolli, Giulini, Szell, Ormandy and Bernstein. Cowan's survey seems to imply that it's more or less 50-50 as to who includes them and who does not, so you pays your money and takes your choice!
RiRiIII
2018-08-24 12:53:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kerrison
The new (September) Gramophone features a survey by Rob Cowan of recordings of "La Mer" that raises a question doubtless touched on here before but still interesting nonetheless. It concerns the brass "fanfares" which suddenly come in towards the end of the finale that are heard on several recordings but not on most others.
They were in the first printed edition of the score but omitted by Debussy in in the reprint for reasons which are not apparently very clear. Cowan writes that their excision "is a great shame, as they suggest a desperate alarm amid the storm."
For easy reference, try Munch and his Bostonians on this You Tube upload from his 1957 recording at about 21 minutes in ...
http://youtu.be/BppVlpagweo
This upload is of just the finale with Stokowski and the London Symphony where the fanfares come in at about 7 minutes in ...
http://youtu.be/965cTnY--3I
In this 'live' Boulez/NYPO DVD, he leaves them out, at about 22 minutes in ...
http://youtu.be/1mGqLaD_zaU
There's little doubt that once you've heard them, you miss them when they're omitted. So whose versions do you have in your collection and which of them have those striking fanfares near the end of the finale and which do not?
After a 1-hour rearch at youtube thE results are as follows:

NO fanfares(20):

ABBADO
BARBIROLLI
BARENBOIM
BEINUM
BERNSTEIN
BOULEZ
COPPOLA
GERGIEV
GIULINI
JAERVI P
KOUSSEVITSKY
MARTINON
MUTI
ORMANDY
PREVIN
SALONEN
SVETLANOV
SZELL
TOSCANINI
VALCUHA

WITH FANFARES (11):

ANSERMET
ASHKENAZY
CELIBIDACHE
DUTOIT
HAITINK
KARAJAN
MITROPOULOS
MONTEUX
MUNCH
REINER
TILSON-THOMAS
RiRiIII
2018-08-24 13:16:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kerrison
The new (September) Gramophone features a survey by Rob Cowan of recordings of "La Mer" that raises a question doubtless touched on here before but still interesting nonetheless. It concerns the brass "fanfares" which suddenly come in towards the end of the finale that are heard on several recordings but not on most others.
They were in the first printed edition of the score but omitted by Debussy in in the reprint for reasons which are not apparently very clear. Cowan writes that their excision "is a great shame, as they suggest a desperate alarm amid the storm."
For easy reference, try Munch and his Bostonians on this You Tube upload from his 1957 recording at about 21 minutes in ...
http://youtu.be/BppVlpagweo
This upload is of just the finale with Stokowski and the London Symphony where the fanfares come in at about 7 minutes in ...
http://youtu.be/965cTnY--3I
In this 'live' Boulez/NYPO DVD, he leaves them out, at about 22 minutes in ...
http://youtu.be/1mGqLaD_zaU
There's little doubt that once you've heard them, you miss them when they're omitted. So whose versions do you have in your collection and which of them have those striking fanfares near the end of the finale and which do not?
UPDATED (1 TO 2 RATE IN FAVOR OF "NO FANFARES" > I could not find at YT Rattle, Stokowksi, Ingelbrecht)

***NO FANFARES (29)

ABBADO
BARBIROLLI
BARENBOIM
BEINUM
BERNSTEIN
BERTINI
BOULEZ
CHUNG
COPPOLA
GERGIEV
GIULINI
IMMERSEEL
JAERVI P
KOUSSEVITSKY
LEVINE
MAAZEL
MARTINON
MUTI
ORMANDY
OZAWA
PARAY
PREVIN
ROTH
SALONEN
SINOPOLI
SVETLANOV
SZELL
TOSCANINI
VALCUHA


***WITH FANFARES (15):

ANSERMET
ASHKENAZY
BURGOS
CELIBIDACHE
DUDAMEL
DUTOIT
HAITINK
KARAJAN
MITROPOULOS
MONTEUX
MRAVINSKY
MUNCH
REINER
SABATA
TILSON THOMAS
drh8h
2018-08-24 16:41:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by RiRiIII
Post by Kerrison
The new (September) Gramophone features a survey by Rob Cowan of recordings of "La Mer" that raises a question doubtless touched on here before but still interesting nonetheless. It concerns the brass "fanfares" which suddenly come in towards the end of the finale that are heard on several recordings but not on most others.
They were in the first printed edition of the score but omitted by Debussy in in the reprint for reasons which are not apparently very clear. Cowan writes that their excision "is a great shame, as they suggest a desperate alarm amid the storm."
For easy reference, try Munch and his Bostonians on this You Tube upload from his 1957 recording at about 21 minutes in ...
http://youtu.be/BppVlpagweo
This upload is of just the finale with Stokowski and the London Symphony where the fanfares come in at about 7 minutes in ...
http://youtu.be/965cTnY--3I
In this 'live' Boulez/NYPO DVD, he leaves them out, at about 22 minutes in ...
http://youtu.be/1mGqLaD_zaU
There's little doubt that once you've heard them, you miss them when they're omitted. So whose versions do you have in your collection and which of them have those striking fanfares near the end of the finale and which do not?
UPDATED (1 TO 2 RATE IN FAVOR OF "NO FANFARES" > I could not find at YT Rattle, Stokowksi, Ingelbrecht)
***NO FANFARES (29)
ABBADO
BARBIROLLI
BARENBOIM
BEINUM
BERNSTEIN
BERTINI
BOULEZ
CHUNG
COPPOLA
GERGIEV
GIULINI
IMMERSEEL
JAERVI P
KOUSSEVITSKY
LEVINE
MAAZEL
MARTINON
MUTI
ORMANDY
OZAWA
PARAY
PREVIN
ROTH
SALONEN
SINOPOLI
SVETLANOV
SZELL
TOSCANINI
VALCUHA
ANSERMET
ASHKENAZY
BURGOS
CELIBIDACHE
DUDAMEL
DUTOIT
HAITINK
KARAJAN
MITROPOULOS
MONTEUX
MRAVINSKY
MUNCH
REINER
SABATA
TILSON THOMAS
For my ha' penny's worth, I have always found the fanfares jarring, conventional, out of place and a bit vulgar. I think the reason they were removed is clear, so let the composer's final intentions stand.

DH
g***@gmail.com
2018-08-24 21:41:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by drh8h
Post by RiRiIII
Post by Kerrison
The new (September) Gramophone features a survey by Rob Cowan of recordings of "La Mer" that raises a question doubtless touched on here before but still interesting nonetheless. It concerns the brass "fanfares" which suddenly come in towards the end of the finale that are heard on several recordings but not on most others.
They were in the first printed edition of the score but omitted by Debussy in in the reprint for reasons which are not apparently very clear. Cowan writes that their excision "is a great shame, as they suggest a desperate alarm amid the storm."
For easy reference, try Munch and his Bostonians on this You Tube upload from his 1957 recording at about 21 minutes in ...
http://youtu.be/BppVlpagweo
This upload is of just the finale with Stokowski and the London Symphony where the fanfares come in at about 7 minutes in ...
http://youtu.be/965cTnY--3I
In this 'live' Boulez/NYPO DVD, he leaves them out, at about 22 minutes in ...
http://youtu.be/1mGqLaD_zaU
There's little doubt that once you've heard them, you miss them when they're omitted. So whose versions do you have in your collection and which of them have those striking fanfares near the end of the finale and which do not?
UPDATED (1 TO 2 RATE IN FAVOR OF "NO FANFARES" > I could not find at YT Rattle, Stokowksi, Ingelbrecht)
***NO FANFARES (29)
ABBADO
BARBIROLLI
BARENBOIM
BEINUM
BERNSTEIN
BERTINI
BOULEZ
CHUNG
COPPOLA
GERGIEV
GIULINI
IMMERSEEL
JAERVI P
KOUSSEVITSKY
LEVINE
MAAZEL
MARTINON
MUTI
ORMANDY
OZAWA
PARAY
PREVIN
ROTH
SALONEN
SINOPOLI
SVETLANOV
SZELL
TOSCANINI
VALCUHA
ANSERMET
ASHKENAZY
BURGOS
CELIBIDACHE
DUDAMEL
DUTOIT
HAITINK
KARAJAN
MITROPOULOS
MONTEUX
MRAVINSKY
MUNCH
REINER
SABATA
TILSON THOMAS
For my ha' penny's worth, I have always found the fanfares jarring, conventional, out of place and a bit vulgar. I think the reason they were removed is clear, so let the composer's final intentions stand.
DH
Could Debussy's 2nd thoughts have made "...the mundane and predictable moving and inspiring"?:

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/humanities.music.composers.wagner/qDh4OytLRJ8
g***@gmail.com
2018-08-24 21:48:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by drh8h
Post by RiRiIII
Post by Kerrison
The new (September) Gramophone features a survey by Rob Cowan of recordings of "La Mer" that raises a question doubtless touched on here before but still interesting nonetheless. It concerns the brass "fanfares" which suddenly come in towards the end of the finale that are heard on several recordings but not on most others.
They were in the first printed edition of the score but omitted by Debussy in in the reprint for reasons which are not apparently very clear. Cowan writes that their excision "is a great shame, as they suggest a desperate alarm amid the storm."
For easy reference, try Munch and his Bostonians on this You Tube upload from his 1957 recording at about 21 minutes in ...
http://youtu.be/BppVlpagweo
This upload is of just the finale with Stokowski and the London Symphony where the fanfares come in at about 7 minutes in ...
http://youtu.be/965cTnY--3I
In this 'live' Boulez/NYPO DVD, he leaves them out, at about 22 minutes in ...
http://youtu.be/1mGqLaD_zaU
There's little doubt that once you've heard them, you miss them when they're omitted. So whose versions do you have in your collection and which of them have those striking fanfares near the end of the finale and which do not?
UPDATED (1 TO 2 RATE IN FAVOR OF "NO FANFARES" > I could not find at YT Rattle, Stokowksi, Ingelbrecht)
***NO FANFARES (29)
ABBADO
BARBIROLLI
BARENBOIM
BEINUM
BERNSTEIN
BERTINI
BOULEZ
CHUNG
COPPOLA
GERGIEV
GIULINI
IMMERSEEL
JAERVI P
KOUSSEVITSKY
LEVINE
MAAZEL
MARTINON
MUTI
ORMANDY
OZAWA
PARAY
PREVIN
ROTH
SALONEN
SINOPOLI
SVETLANOV
SZELL
TOSCANINI
VALCUHA
ANSERMET
ASHKENAZY
BURGOS
CELIBIDACHE
DUDAMEL
DUTOIT
HAITINK
KARAJAN
MITROPOULOS
MONTEUX
MRAVINSKY
MUNCH
REINER
SABATA
TILSON THOMAS
For my ha' penny's worth, I have always found the fanfares jarring, conventional, out of place and a bit vulgar. I think the reason they were removed is clear, so let the composer's final intentions stand.
DH
Could Debussy's "...later thoughts..." have made "...the mundane and predictable moving and inspiring"?:

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/humanities.music.composers.wagner/qDh4OytLRJ8
g***@gmail.com
2018-09-19 04:20:46 UTC
Permalink
The new (September) Gramophone features a survey by Rob Cowan of recordings of "La Mer"...
Shouldn't that survey have included the mid-fifties recordings of Monteux (mono) and Paray (stereo)?
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