Post by George MurnuPost by George MurnuPost by George MurnuPost by RX-01Post by h***@aol.comHas anyone heard CT's B5 on DG. I see it is out in Japan.
R.Sauer
I know many people in this newsgroup don't like Thielemann. However, I
urge everyone to listen to the media clips on the DG website. This
sounds like an amazing performance, even though it's hard to tell of
course from a 5 minute clip from each movement.
Still, the orchestral playing sounds magnificent, reminding me of
the
Post by George MurnuPost by George MurnuPost by RX-01Celibidache on EMI (after all it is the same orchestra, the Munich
Philharmonic)! It will be released internationally in March.
Admitedly, the sound of my computer is horrible, but the orchestra no
longer
Post by George Murnusounds like Celi's old band - Levine destroyed it ; I will elaborate
when
Post by George MurnuI
Post by George Murnuhave time - and from the bits and pieces on the it did not seem to me
that
Post by George MurnuPost by George MurnuThielemann recaptured Celi's sound; maybe he will do it with time, or
perhaps hearing the recording in ideal sound will change my impression.
What you are saying makes absolutely no sense. So the sound on your
computer
Post by George Murnuis not good, but you still know that Levine destroyed the MP sound,
telling
Post by George Murnufrom listening to mediocre-sound quality compressed audio clips played
back
Post by George Murnuon an admittedly bad computer, and you aren't even listening to clips of a
Levine performance, but of Thielemann's. But still you know that Levine
destroyed the "Celibidache sound", which you never heard live yourself.
Are
Post by George Murnuyou just bored or why are you wasting everybody's time with your empty
blabla?
First of all, we are discussing recordings; I don't think it is necessary to
speak about Celi or Levine live. For the record, I did in fact hear Celi
live once with the Munich Philharmonic and Levine twice with the orchestra -
plus of course, Levine countless of times live at the Met.
In this case, it is very necessary to speak about live. Because the EMI
recordings do not reperesnt the live sound they had at all. I posted about
this a few posts up. Maybe you want to take a look and give us your views.
What did C conduct when you heard them (in NY?)
Post by George MurnuBut as you may have guessed, I have all of Celi's EMI releases in Munich,
plus a few of Levine's Oehms recordings. Since they both were recorded live
in the same hall (O.K. Celi's early recordings in Munich were made in
Herkulessaal) by the same company - namely the Bavarian Radio or by the
Munich Philharmonic itself - comparisons of the sound of the orchestra under
the two maestros I think is fair game.
Absolutely not. They may have moved the microphones in completely different
spots, use a different mixing approach, it may even be completely different
people working there. I certainly hope so. Even though German radio stations
have a very high level of quality and the engineers are better trained than
anywhere else (at least in theory), the work of the BR engineers in the C
live recordings is very disappointing. I will relisten to some of them
tonight to recheck my impressions.
Post by George MurnuAnd from what I hear, the Munich
Philharmonic is in worse shape under Levine than what it was under Celi
I have absolutely no doubt. Levine is nowhere near the quality of C. I was
horrified when I heard they hired him after C. Bit that decision is easily
explained. Munich is very provincial but likes to think it is a leading
metropole. So they spent a lot of money on cultural representations. Which
is basically good. But it was all too predictable that after C who had
finally brought the orchestra to more attention (it was never a German top
orchestra - even in Munich, the BR and Opera have or used to have, a better
reputation) they would just hire a more or less glamorous, safe, but
ultimately not very interesting jetsetting maestro. Kind of like LA which
had its first really good period with Mehta in the 70s, then even had
Giulini, if only for a few years, and then - Previn -, what an uninspired
and wrong decision. Fortunately they made up in deciding for Salonen when he
was still not very famous. Let's hope that Thielemann is a similarly good
decision to bring the MP back "into the game". I don't know if it is. I
haven't made up my mind yet what to think of T.
Post by George Murnu(yes, the decline of the orchestra started IMO around 1994 with Celi's
diminishing health but even so IMO this statement is true). What I don't
hear under Levine is the ensemble playing that the orchestra gave under
Celi. Under Celi, the orchestra did sound like ONE instrument, even with
the limitations of the microphone you can hear the fact that the players do
actually take time to listen to each other, that each player knew exactly
what was required of him. All of this has disappeared under Levine who
tried to emulate the kind of playing he gets from his Met band. But the
strength of the Met orchestra is its virtuosity, its technical precision,
and the Munich Philharmonic was never a virtuoso orchestra in the same sense
the Met band is. Thus the ensemble playing suffered in Munich under Levine,
and what I most notably miss is the string sound that Celi got from his
band.
So what does all of this has to do with Thielemann? It does because it
usually takes about two seasons for a conductor to fully put his stamp on
the orchestra, although of course progress can be seen (more or less) from
concert to concert. Thus the orchestra that Thielemann conducted in his
debut as music director was basically the one he inherited from Levine.
And
Post by George Murnuit is true that a compresed audio file is not an ideal way to hear music,
but even with this limitation, the sound is not worse than many historical
recordings that are routinely discussed in this group. Keeping these
limitations in mind, I could still say that the basic string sound in
Thielemann's recording was, unsurprisingly, closer to Levine's lighter sound
rather than to Celi's richer sound and that the bits and pieces heard did
not reminded me of Celi's interpretation with the same orchestra. Of
course, I will have a better picture in March when the Thielemann's
recording will be released.
The string sound in the Thielemann clips appears to me relatively full and
soft and a little fuzzy, in any case much closer to the C (apart from the
fuzzy part, C usually had very good ensemble) than the L/MET-like sound. But
I don't take these impressions seriously because I think these clips are not
at all representative.
What also reminds me a bit of C is the tamed, held back, or to put it
positively, nobly controlled brass sound.