Discussion:
Doesn't PARSIFAL provide a religious experience for many?
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g***@gmail.com
2018-01-25 20:40:15 UTC
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According to this:

- The need for the arts, poetry and music in particular, with their appeal to the mystical, nonrational part of the mind, may to a large extent be a manifestation of the universal need to escape from the boundaries of time, to exchange one's sense of time with that of timelessness, to transcend from temporal existence into eternity. Such is religion's main attraction, the promise of a land where, as the Angel in St. John's revelation puts it, "There shall be time no longer."...

https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&biw=1366&bih=662&tbm=bks&ei=JJhpWvraKsOqjQPahriQBw&q=%22The+need+for+the+arts%2C+poetry+and+music+in+particular%2C+with+their+appeal+to+the+mystical%2C+nonrational+part+of+the+mind%2C+may+to+a+large+extent+be+a+manifestation+of+the+universal+need+to+escape+from+the+boundaries+of+time%2C+to+exchange+one%27s+sense+of%22&oq=%22The+need+for+the+arts%2C+poetry+and+music+in+particular%2C+with+their+appeal+to+the+mystical%2C+nonrational+part+of+the+mind%2C+may+to+a+large+extent+be+a+manifestation+of+the+universal+need+to+escape+from+the+boundaries+of+time%2C+to+exchange+one%27s+sense+of%22&gs_l=psy-ab.3...58298.66429.0.66759.19.17.0.0.0.0.296.2747.0j4j8.12.0....0...1c.1.64.psy-ab..17.0.0....0.HAznrif0U-E
g***@gmail.com
2018-01-25 20:41:08 UTC
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Post by g***@gmail.com
- The need for the arts, poetry and music in particular, with their appeal to the mystical, nonrational part of the mind, may to a large extent be a manifestation of the universal need to escape from the boundaries of time, to exchange one's sense of time with that of timelessness, to transcend from temporal existence into eternity. Such is religion's main attraction, the promise of a land where, as the Angel in St. John's revelation puts it, "There shall be time no longer."...
https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&biw=1366&bih=662&tbm=bks&ei=JJhpWvraKsOqjQPahriQBw&q=%22The+need+for+the+arts%2C+poetry+and+music+in+particular%2C+with+their+appeal+to+the+mystical%2C+nonrational+part+of+the+mind%2C+may+to+a+large+extent+be+a+manifestation+of+the+universal+need+to+escape+from+the+boundaries+of+time%2C+to+exchange+one%27s+sense+of%22&oq=%22The+need+for+the+arts%2C+poetry+and+music+in+particular%2C+with+their+appeal+to+the+mystical%2C+nonrational+part+of+the+mind%2C+may+to+a+large+extent+be+a+manifestation+of+the+universal+need+to+escape+from+the+boundaries+of+time%2C+to+exchange+one%27s+sense+of%22&gs_l=psy-ab.3...58298.66429.0.66759.19.17.0.0.0.0.296.2747.0j4j8.12.0....0...1c.1.64.psy-ab..17.0.0....0.HAznrif0U-E
So what recording should I listen to to get a dose of that religious experience?

(Make mine a double.)
Raymond Hall
2018-01-25 21:12:12 UTC
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-So what recording should I listen to to get a dose of that religious experience? 
-(Make mine a double.) 

Much of Messiaen's organ works get a lot closer imho than any other music.

Ray Hall, Taree
Steven Bornfeld
2018-01-25 21:48:30 UTC
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Post by g***@gmail.com
Post by g***@gmail.com
- The need for the arts, poetry and music in particular, with their appeal to the mystical, nonrational part of the mind, may to a large extent be a manifestation of the universal need to escape from the boundaries of time, to exchange one's sense of time with that of timelessness, to transcend from temporal existence into eternity. Such is religion's main attraction, the promise of a land where, as the Angel in St. John's revelation puts it, "There shall be time no longer."...
https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&biw=1366&bih=662&tbm=bks&ei=JJhpWvraKsOqjQPahriQBw&q=%22The+need+for+the+arts%2C+poetry+and+music+in+particular%2C+with+their+appeal+to+the+mystical%2C+nonrational+part+of+the+mind%2C+may+to+a+large+extent+be+a+manifestation+of+the+universal+need+to+escape+from+the+boundaries+of+time%2C+to+exchange+one%27s+sense+of%22&oq=%22The+need+for+the+arts%2C+poetry+and+music+in+particular%2C+with+their+appeal+to+the+mystical%2C+nonrational+part+of+the+mind%2C+may+to+a+large+extent+be+a+manifestation+of+the+universal+need+to+escape+from+the+boundaries+of+time%2C+to+exchange+one%27s+sense+of%22&gs_l=psy-ab.3...58298.66429.0.66759.19.17.0.0.0.0.296.2747.0j4j8.12.0....0...1c.1.64.psy-ab..17.0.0....0.HAznrif0U-E
So what recording should I listen to to get a dose of that religious experience?
(Make mine a double.)
May an agnostic Jew suggest Palestrina?
dk
2018-01-25 22:51:56 UTC
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Post by Steven Bornfeld
Post by g***@gmail.com
Post by g***@gmail.com
- The need for the arts, poetry and music in particular, with their appeal to the mystical, nonrational part of the mind, may to a large extent be a manifestation of the universal need to escape from the boundaries of time, to exchange one's sense of time with that of timelessness, to transcend from temporal existence into eternity. Such is religion's main attraction, the promise of a land where, as the Angel in St. John's revelation puts it, "There shall be time no longer."...
https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&biw=1366&bih=662&tbm=bks&ei=JJhpWvraKsOqjQPahriQBw&q=%22The+need+for+the+arts%2C+poetry+and+music+in+particular%2C+with+their+appeal+to+the+mystical%2C+nonrational+part+of+the+mind%2C+may+to+a+large+extent+be+a+manifestation+of+the+universal+need+to+escape+from+the+boundaries+of+time%2C+to+exchange+one%27s+sense+of%22&oq=%22The+need+for+the+arts%2C+poetry+and+music+in+particular%2C+with+their+appeal+to+the+mystical%2C+nonrational+part+of+the+mind%2C+may+to+a+large+extent+be+a+manifestation+of+the+universal+need+to+escape+from+the+boundaries+of+time%2C+to+exchange+one%27s+sense+of%22&gs_l=psy-ab.3...58298.66429.0.66759.19.17.0.0.0.0.296.2747.0j4j8.12.0....0...1c.1.64.psy-ab..17.0.0....0.HAznrif0U-E
So what recording should I listen to to
get a dose of that religious experience?
(Make mine a double.)
May an agnostic Jew suggest Palestrina?
Typo? ;-)

dk
graham
2018-01-26 00:06:35 UTC
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Post by Steven Bornfeld
Post by g***@gmail.com
Post by g***@gmail.com
- The need for the arts, poetry and music in particular, with their
appeal to the mystical, nonrational part of the mind, may to a large
extent be a manifestation of the universal need to escape from the
boundaries of time, to exchange one's sense of time with that of
timelessness, to transcend from temporal existence into eternity.
Such is religion's main attraction, the promise of a land where, as
the Angel in St. John's revelation puts it, "There shall be time no
longer."...
https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&biw=1366&bih=662&tbm=bks&ei=JJhpWvraKsOqjQPahriQBw&q=%22The+need+for+the+arts%2C+poetry+and+music+in+particular%2C+with+their+appeal+to+the+mystical%2C+nonrational+part+of+the+mind%2C+may+to+a+large+extent+be+a+manifestation+of+the+universal+need+to+escape+from+the+boundaries+of+time%2C+to+exchange+one%27s+sense+of%22&oq=%22The+need+for+the+arts%2C+poetry+and+music+in+particular%2C+with+their+appeal+to+the+mystical%2C+nonrational+part+of+the+mind%2C+may+to+a+large+extent+be+a+manifestation+of+the+universal+need+to+escape+from+the+boundaries+of+time%2C+to+exchange+one%27s+sense+of%22&gs_l=psy-ab.3...58298.66429.0.66759.19.17.0.0.0.0.296.2747.0j4j8.12.0....0...1c.1.64.psy-ab..17.0.0....0.HAznrif0U-E
So what recording should I listen to to get a dose of that religious experience?
(Make mine a double.)
May an agnostic Jew suggest Palestrina?
Surely Delius!
dk
2018-01-25 21:51:39 UTC
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Post by g***@gmail.com
So what recording should I listen to to
get a dose of that religious experience?
(Make mine a double.)
Drink a triple espresso! ;-)
Follow up with hot chocolate! ;-))
Oscar
2018-01-25 22:44:14 UTC
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Post by g***@gmail.com
So what recording should I listen to to get a dose of that religious experience?
Have you ever listened to the official Bayreuth recording on Philips? There is but one place to start for this work, and that is it. It's pretty obvious, too.
dk
2018-01-25 22:51:18 UTC
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Post by Oscar
Post by g***@gmail.com
So what recording should I listen to to get a
dose of that religious experience?
Have you ever listened to the official Bayreuth
recording on Philips? There is but one place to
start for this work, and that is it. It's pretty
obvious, too.
I actually have. I had to say many prayers to
hold my bladder while listening. It was before
before digital media time when there was no way
to pause turntables during playback and resume
from the exact same spot.

Composers who write movements longer than 20
minutes are guilty of sadism! Wagner, Mahler
and Bruckner clearly top the list! ;-)

dk
Bob Harper
2018-01-26 01:01:58 UTC
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Post by dk
Post by Oscar
Post by g***@gmail.com
So what recording should I listen to to get a
dose of that religious experience?
Have you ever listened to the official Bayreuth
recording on Philips? There is but one place to
start for this work, and that is it. It's pretty
obvious, too.
I actually have. I had to say many prayers to
hold my bladder while listening. It was before
before digital media time when there was no way
to pause turntables during playback and resume
from the exact same spot.
Composers who write movements longer than 20
minutes are guilty of sadism! Wagner, Mahler
and Bruckner clearly top the list! ;-)
dk
Dan, are you telling us you have a short attention span or a tiny
bladder? :)

Bob Harper
dk
2018-01-26 05:56:35 UTC
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Post by Bob Harper
Post by dk
Post by Oscar
Post by g***@gmail.com
So what recording should I listen to to get a
dose of that religious experience?
Have you ever listened to the official Bayreuth
recording on Philips? There is but one place to
start for this work, and that is it. It's pretty
obvious, too.
I actually have. I had to say many prayers to
hold my bladder while listening. It was before
before digital media time when there was no way
to pause turntables during playback and resume
from the exact same spot.
Composers who write movements longer than 20
minutes are guilty of sadism! Wagner, Mahler
and Bruckner clearly top the list! ;-)
Dan, are you telling us you have a short
attention span or a tiny bladder? :)
I am telling you I do not want to unduly
stress any part of my anatomy! ;-)

dk
m***@gmail.com
2018-01-26 17:10:43 UTC
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Post by dk
Post by Bob Harper
Post by dk
Post by Oscar
Post by g***@gmail.com
So what recording should I listen to to get a
dose of that religious experience?
Have you ever listened to the official Bayreuth
recording on Philips? There is but one place to
start for this work, and that is it. It's pretty
obvious, too.
I actually have. I had to say many prayers to
hold my bladder while listening. It was before
before digital media time when there was no way
to pause turntables during playback and resume
from the exact same spot.
Composers who write movements longer than 20
minutes are guilty of sadism! Wagner, Mahler
and Bruckner clearly top the list! ;-)
Dan, are you telling us you have a short
attention span or a tiny bladder? :)
I am telling you I do not want to unduly
stress any part of my anatomy! ;-)
dk
Ha ha understood!!!!
g***@gmail.com
2018-01-26 21:08:22 UTC
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Post by g***@gmail.com
- The need for the arts, poetry and music in particular, with their appeal to the mystical, nonrational part of the mind, may to a large extent be a manifestation of the universal need to escape from the boundaries of time, to exchange one's sense of time with that of timelessness, to transcend from temporal existence into eternity. Such is religion's main attraction, the promise of a land where, as the Angel in St. John's revelation puts it, "There shall be time no longer."...
https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&biw=1366&bih=662&tbm=bks&ei=JJhpWvraKsOqjQPahriQBw&q=%22The+need+for+the+arts%2C+poetry+and+music+in+particular%2C+with+their+appeal+to+the+mystical%2C+nonrational+part+of+the+mind%2C+may+to+a+large+extent+be+a+manifestation+of+the+universal+need+to+escape+from+the+boundaries+of+time%2C+to+exchange+one%27s+sense+of%22&oq=%22The+need+for+the+arts%2C+poetry+and+music+in+particular%2C+with+their+appeal+to+the+mystical%2C+nonrational+part+of+the+mind%2C+may+to+a+large+extent+be+a+manifestation+of+the+universal+need+to+escape+from+the+boundaries+of+time%2C+to+exchange+one%27s+sense+of%22&gs_l=psy-ab.3...58298.66429.0.66759.19.17.0.0.0.0.296.2747.0j4j8.12.0....0...1c.1.64.psy-ab..17.0.0....0.HAznrif0U-E
- When religion becomes artificial, art has a duty to rescue it...Art can idealize those symbols, and so reveal the profound truths they contain.

Wagner

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/music/opera/9908198/The-opera-novice-Parsifal-by-Richard-Wagner.html
dk
2018-01-26 21:32:14 UTC
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Post by g***@gmail.com
Post by g***@gmail.com
- The need for the arts, poetry and music in particular, with their appeal to the mystical, nonrational part of the mind, may to a large extent be a manifestation of the universal need to escape from the boundaries of time, to exchange one's sense of time with that of timelessness, to transcend from temporal existence into eternity. Such is religion's main attraction, the promise of a land where, as the Angel in St. John's revelation puts it, "There shall be time no longer."...
https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&biw=1366&bih=662&tbm=bks&ei=JJhpWvraKsOqjQPahriQBw&q=%22The+need+for+the+arts%2C+poetry+and+music+in+particular%2C+with+their+appeal+to+the+mystical%2C+nonrational+part+of+the+mind%2C+may+to+a+large+extent+be+a+manifestation+of+the+universal+need+to+escape+from+the+boundaries+of+time%2C+to+exchange+one%27s+sense+of%22&oq=%22The+need+for+the+arts%2C+poetry+and+music+in+particular%2C+with+their+appeal+to+the+mystical%2C+nonrational+part+of+the+mind%2C+may+to+a+large+extent+be+a+manifestation+of+the+universal+need+to+escape+from+the+boundaries+of+time%2C+to+exchange+one%27s+sense+of%22&gs_l=psy-ab.3...58298.66429.0.66759.19.17.0.0.0.0.296.2747.0j4j8.12.0....0...1c.1.64.psy-ab..17.0.0....0.HAznrif0U-E
- When religion becomes artificial, art has a duty to
rescue it...Art can idealize those symbols, and so
reveal the profound truths they contain.
Wagner
Delusion.

dk
Andy Evans
2018-01-27 09:35:53 UTC
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My grandfather was a preacher, plus I grew up at the bottom of the Welsh valleys, so I'm a bit of a sucker for Gospel. Modern Gospel does it for me - Dorinda Clark-Cole, Kim Burrell. It's not a spiritual experience as such, I just love the beat, the energy and the singing. As Alexander Pope said

'As some to church repair, not for the doctrine, but the music there.'
h***@btinternet.com
2018-01-27 15:14:39 UTC
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For a religious experience in Parsifal, you need the recording by Hans Jurgen Syberberg.
g***@gmail.com
2018-01-27 19:17:26 UTC
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My grandfather was a preacher, plus I grew up at the bottom of the Welsh valleys...
If you have ever read/seen HOW GREEN WAS MY VALLEY, what did you think of it?
Andy Evans
2018-01-28 14:23:14 UTC
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Post by g***@gmail.com
My grandfather was a preacher, plus I grew up at the bottom of the Welsh valleys...
If you have ever read/seen HOW GREEN WAS MY VALLEY, what did you think of it?
I can't remember, long time ago. Welsh culture can easily become horribly inbred, self-congratulatory and sentimental, and many of us avoid its worst excesses. Don't know how that film handled "Welshness".
g***@gmail.com
2018-01-28 18:54:06 UTC
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Post by Andy Evans
Post by g***@gmail.com
My grandfather was a preacher, plus I grew up at the bottom of the Welsh valleys...
If you have ever read/seen HOW GREEN WAS MY VALLEY, what did you think of it?
I can't remember, long time ago. Welsh culture can easily become horribly inbred, self-congratulatory and sentimental, and many of us avoid its worst excesses. Don't know how that film handled "Welshness".
According to Wikipedia's article on the author:

- Several of his novels dealt with a Welsh theme, the best-known being How Green Was My Valley (1939), which won international acclaim and was made into a classic Hollywood film. It immortalised the way of life of the South Wales Valleys coal mining communities, where Llewellyn spent a small amount of time with his grandfather. Three sequels followed.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Llewellyn#Themes
g***@gmail.com
2018-01-28 20:03:35 UTC
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Post by g***@gmail.com
- The need for the arts, poetry and music in particular, with their appeal to the mystical, nonrational part of the mind, may to a large extent be a manifestation of the universal need to escape from the boundaries of time, to exchange one's sense of time with that of timelessness, to transcend from temporal existence into eternity. Such is religion's main attraction, the promise of a land where, as the Angel in St. John's revelation puts it, "There shall be time no longer."...
https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&biw=1366&bih=662&tbm=bks&ei=JJhpWvraKsOqjQPahriQBw&q=%22The+need+for+the+arts%2C+poetry+and+music+in+particular%2C+with+their+appeal+to+the+mystical%2C+nonrational+part+of+the+mind%2C+may+to+a+large+extent+be+a+manifestation+of+the+universal+need+to+escape+from+the+boundaries+of+time%2C+to+exchange+one%27s+sense+of%22&oq=%22The+need+for+the+arts%2C+poetry+and+music+in+particular%2C+with+their+appeal+to+the+mystical%2C+nonrational+part+of+the+mind%2C+may+to+a+large+extent+be+a+manifestation+of+the+universal+need+to+escape+from+the+boundaries+of+time%2C+to+exchange+one%27s+sense+of%22&gs_l=psy-ab.3...58298.66429.0.66759.19.17.0.0.0.0.296.2747.0j4j8.12.0....0...1c.1.64.psy-ab..17.0.0....0.HAznrif0U-E
The following article concludes:

- Parsifal is not just an opera, it’s a sort of contemplative, religious experience. Wagner was writing something that came from deep inside him, a sort of philosophical statement, the idea that you can never become a proper person unless you’ve learned compassion. It’s a very beautiful message.

https://michiganavemag.com/richard-wagner-parsifal-at-the-lyric-opera
dk
2018-01-28 22:34:21 UTC
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Post by g***@gmail.com
- Parsifal is not just an opera, it’s a sort of contemplative,
religious experience. Wagner was writing something that came
from deep inside him, a sort of philosophical statement, the
idea that you can never become a proper person unless you’ve
learned compassion. It’s a very beautiful message.
Coming from a most unlikely source! Wagner and compassion?
In other words, "do as I say, not as I do!"? He was one of
the most vicious characters in the history of art, any art!
Maybe even THE MOST VICIOUS!

dk
jeffc
2018-01-29 11:53:06 UTC
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Post by dk
Coming from a most unlikely source! Wagner and compassion?
Wagner was influenced by Schopenhauer.
If you're not familiar with his influence on Wagner,
it's well worth investigating.
-------------------------------------

Schopenhauer and Parsifal

Wagner had been greatly impressed with his reading of Arthur Schopenhauer in 1854, and this deeply affected his thoughts and practice on music and art. Some writers (e.g. Bryan Magee) see Parsifal as Wagner's last great espousal of Schopenhauerian philosophy.[51] Parsifal can heal Amfortas and redeem Kundry because he shows compassion, which Schopenhauer saw as the highest form of human morality. Moreover, he displays compassion in the face of sexual temptation (act 2, scene 3). Schopenhaurian philosophy also suggests that the only escape from the ever-present temptations of human life is through negation of the Will, and overcoming sexual temptation is in particular a strong form of negation of the Will. When viewed in this light, Parsifal, with its emphasis on Mitleid ("compassion") is a natural follow-on to Tristan und Isolde, where Schopenhauer's influence is perhaps more obvious, with its focus on Sehnen ("yearning"). Indeed, Wagner originally considered including Parsifal as a character in act 3 of Tristan, but later rejected the idea."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parsifal#Schopenhauer_and_Parsifal

-------------------------------------

"Parsifal is about compassion," Wigglesworth says. "It's his Buddhist piece, really. It's saying that compassion is the means by which you find peace. It's an incredibly life-affirming piece. I would hate people to think that it's a serious, heavy religious work. It's long, yes, but it's really about rejuvenation – nothing more philosophical than that."

https://www.theguardian.com/music/2011/feb/10/parsifal-wagner-english-national-opera

---------------------------------------
Herman
2018-01-29 16:24:12 UTC
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Post by jeffc
it's well worth investigating.
-------------------------------------
it would overrun his bladder time.
m***@gmail.com
2018-01-29 16:29:05 UTC
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Post by jeffc
Post by dk
Coming from a most unlikely source! Wagner and compassion?
Wagner was influenced by Schopenhauer.
If you're not familiar with his influence on Wagner,
it's well worth investigating.
-------------------------------------
Schopenhauer and Parsifal
Wagner had been greatly impressed with his reading of Arthur Schopenhauer in 1854, and this deeply affected his thoughts and practice on music and art. Some writers (e.g. Bryan Magee) see Parsifal as Wagner's last great espousal of Schopenhauerian philosophy.[51] Parsifal can heal Amfortas and redeem Kundry because he shows compassion, which Schopenhauer saw as the highest form of human morality. Moreover, he displays compassion in the face of sexual temptation (act 2, scene 3). Schopenhaurian philosophy also suggests that the only escape from the ever-present temptations of human life is through negation of the Will, and overcoming sexual temptation is in particular a strong form of negation of the Will. When viewed in this light, Parsifal, with its emphasis on Mitleid ("compassion") is a natural follow-on to Tristan und Isolde, where Schopenhauer's influence is perhaps more obvious, with its focus on Sehnen ("yearning"). Indeed, Wagner originally considered including Parsifal as a character in act 3 of Tristan, but later rejected the idea."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parsifal#Schopenhauer_and_Parsifal
-------------------------------------
"Parsifal is about compassion," Wigglesworth says. "It's his Buddhist piece, really. It's saying that compassion is the means by which you find peace. It's an incredibly life-affirming piece. I would hate people to think that it's a serious, heavy religious work. It's long, yes, but it's really about rejuvenation – nothing more philosophical than that."
https://www.theguardian.com/music/2011/feb/10/parsifal-wagner-english-national-opera
---------------------------------------
One does not have to succumb to a mystique to appreciate the richness and profundity of his operas. They come from the supremely poetic imagination of a composer and dramatist who stills excites unquestioning reverence and irrational animosity and whose work is still the subject of the most insistent probing, analysis, explication and special pleading from all corners. As the guy in the beer ad says "He must be doing something right"
dk
2018-01-29 18:52:02 UTC
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Post by m***@gmail.com
One does not have to succumb to a mystique to
appreciate the richness and profundity of his
operas.
Richness for sure. Profundity? I am skeptical.
Post by m***@gmail.com
They come from the supremely poetic imagination
of a composer and dramatist who stills excites
unquestioning reverence and irrational animosity
and whose work is still the subject of the most
insistent probing, analysis, explication and
special pleading from all corners.
Do you notice the subtle but profound bias in
what you wrote? The folks who reject Wagner
are guilty of "irrational animosity", while
fans are blessed by "unquestioning reverence"!
Post by m***@gmail.com
As the guy in the beer ad says "He must be
doing something right"
Which does not prevent him from doing lots of
things wrong. It is the final balance that
matters, not the "something right" things.

dk
g***@gmail.com
2018-01-29 19:40:12 UTC
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Post by dk
Post by m***@gmail.com
One does not have to succumb to a mystique to
appreciate the richness and profundity of his
operas.
Richness for sure. Profundity? I am skeptical.
Post by m***@gmail.com
They come from the supremely poetic imagination
of a composer and dramatist who stills excites
unquestioning reverence and irrational animosity
and whose work is still the subject of the most
insistent probing, analysis, explication and
special pleading from all corners.
Do you notice the subtle but profound bias in
what you wrote? The folks who reject Wagner
are guilty of "irrational animosity", while
fans are blessed by "unquestioning reverence"!
If Wagner does anything, it's to polarize people when it comes to evaluating his work.
m***@gmail.com
2018-01-30 12:39:38 UTC
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Post by g***@gmail.com
Post by dk
Post by m***@gmail.com
One does not have to succumb to a mystique to
appreciate the richness and profundity of his
operas.
Richness for sure. Profundity? I am skeptical.
Post by m***@gmail.com
They come from the supremely poetic imagination
of a composer and dramatist who stills excites
unquestioning reverence and irrational animosity
and whose work is still the subject of the most
insistent probing, analysis, explication and
special pleading from all corners.
Do you notice the subtle but profound bias in
what you wrote? The folks who reject Wagner
are guilty of "irrational animosity", while
fans are blessed by "unquestioning reverence"!
If Wagner does anything, it's to polarize people when it comes to evaluating his work.
and ironically for reasons that have little to do with his actual work
Herman
2018-01-30 12:47:16 UTC
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Permalink
Post by g***@gmail.com
If Wagner does anything, it's to polarize people when it comes to evaluating his work.
Most people just listen in awe or joy.

At least half of the people in this topic have never been at the performance of Parisifal or any Wagner work.
m***@gmail.com
2018-01-30 13:12:04 UTC
Reply
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Post by Herman
Post by g***@gmail.com
If Wagner does anything, it's to polarize people when it comes to evaluating his work.
Most people just listen in awe or joy.
At least half of the people in this topic have never been at the performance of Parisifal or any Wagner work.
Probably correct
m***@gmail.com
2018-01-30 13:23:54 UTC
Reply
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Post by Herman
Post by g***@gmail.com
If Wagner does anything, it's to polarize people when it comes to evaluating his work.
Most people just listen in awe or joy.
At least half of the people in this topic have never been at the performance of Parisifal or any Wagner work.
It has been said that more has been written about Wagner and his work than any other person in history beside Jesus and Napoleon. Whether that's right or wrong is an entertaining thought but it does go to say something about his work being deeper and more important and relevant than a story about a little seamstress with consumption or a conflicted Egyptian princess. Wagner is with one exception in his mature operas reinterpreting mythology which opens up whole new vistas of relevance and meaning. Unfortunately so much nonsense has been written about this composer from both admirers and haters that it has colored much opinion about him Was he a saint - far from it but like many artists the best part of him came through his art and work. I'm not going t spend much more time on this since many have made up their minds pro or con and won't change no matter what is presented to them and I believe in "economy of effort"
g***@gmail.com
2018-01-30 18:22:11 UTC
Reply
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Post by Herman
Post by g***@gmail.com
If Wagner does anything, it's to polarize people when it comes to evaluating his work.
Most people just listen in awe or joy.
At least half of the people in this topic have never been at the performance of Parisifal or any Wagner work.
It has been said that more has been written about Wagner and his work than any other person in history beside Jesus and Napoleon. Whether that's right or wrong is an entertaining thought but it does go to say something about his work being deeper and more important and relevant than a story about a little seamstress with consumption or a conflicted Egyptian princess. Wagner is with one exception in his mature operas reinterpreting mythology which opens up whole new vistas of relevance and meaning...
Doesn't this also apply to Wagner's operas?:

...Its ideas, so vastly ambitious in their reach, keep taking on new significance in changing circumstances. (recent article)

https://aeon.co/essays/how-the-frankfurt-school-diagnosed-the-ills-of-western-civilisation
m***@gmail.com
2018-01-30 21:22:17 UTC
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Post by g***@gmail.com
Post by Herman
Post by g***@gmail.com
If Wagner does anything, it's to polarize people when it comes to evaluating his work.
Most people just listen in awe or joy.
At least half of the people in this topic have never been at the performance of Parisifal or any Wagner work.
It has been said that more has been written about Wagner and his work than any other person in history beside Jesus and Napoleon. Whether that's right or wrong is an entertaining thought but it does go to say something about his work being deeper and more important and relevant than a story about a little seamstress with consumption or a conflicted Egyptian princess. Wagner is with one exception in his mature operas reinterpreting mythology which opens up whole new vistas of relevance and meaning...
...Its ideas, so vastly ambitious in their reach, keep taking on new significance in changing circumstances. (recent article)
https://aeon.co/essays/how-the-frankfurt-school-diagnosed-the-ills-of-western-civilisation
What do you think I'm talking about???
dk
2018-01-30 19:11:36 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by m***@gmail.com
It has been said that more has been written about Wagner and
his work than any other person in history beside Jesus and
Napoleon. Whether that's right or wrong is an entertaining
thought but it does go to say something about his work being
deeper and more important and relevant than a story about a
little seamstress with consumption or a conflicted Egyptian
princess. Wagner is with one exception in his mature operas
reinterpreting mythology which opens up whole new vistas of
relevance and meaning.
This sounds like a lot of gobbledygook to my ears.
And who needs mythology reinterpreted anyway?

dk
m***@gmail.com
2018-01-30 21:23:05 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by dk
Post by m***@gmail.com
It has been said that more has been written about Wagner and
his work than any other person in history beside Jesus and
Napoleon. Whether that's right or wrong is an entertaining
thought but it does go to say something about his work being
deeper and more important and relevant than a story about a
little seamstress with consumption or a conflicted Egyptian
princess. Wagner is with one exception in his mature operas
reinterpreting mythology which opens up whole new vistas of
relevance and meaning.
This sounds like a lot of gobbledygook to my ears.
And who needs mythology reinterpreted anyway?
dk
I rest my case.
dk
2018-01-31 04:11:53 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by m***@gmail.com
Post by dk
Post by m***@gmail.com
It has been said that more has been written about Wagner and
his work than any other person in history beside Jesus and
Napoleon. Whether that's right or wrong is an entertaining
thought but it does go to say something about his work being
deeper and more important and relevant than a story about a
little seamstress with consumption or a conflicted Egyptian
princess. Wagner is with one exception in his mature operas
reinterpreting mythology which opens up whole new vistas of
relevance and meaning.
This sounds like a lot of gobbledygook to my ears.
And who needs mythology reinterpreted anyway?
I rest my case.
"reinterpreting mythology opens up whole new vistas of
relevance and meaning". How about Math and Physics then?

Is "reinterpreting mythology" really so much deeper
than science? Methinks not!

dk
m***@gmail.com
2018-01-31 05:11:14 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by dk
Post by m***@gmail.com
Post by dk
Post by m***@gmail.com
It has been said that more has been written about Wagner and
his work than any other person in history beside Jesus and
Napoleon. Whether that's right or wrong is an entertaining
thought but it does go to say something about his work being
deeper and more important and relevant than a story about a
little seamstress with consumption or a conflicted Egyptian
princess. Wagner is with one exception in his mature operas
reinterpreting mythology which opens up whole new vistas of
relevance and meaning.
This sounds like a lot of gobbledygook to my ears.
And who needs mythology reinterpreted anyway?
I rest my case.
"reinterpreting mythology opens up whole new vistas of
relevance and meaning". How about Math and Physics then?
Is "reinterpreting mythology" really so much deeper
than science? Methinks not!
dk
Oh youthinks not????? How did math and physics enter this discussion - I am talking about how Wagner uses mythology is his work. Who said anything about it being deeper than or different from math or science. Or are you purposely just trying to act clueless which is really boring
dk
2018-01-31 18:09:03 UTC
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Permalink
Post by dk
Post by m***@gmail.com
Post by dk
Post by m***@gmail.com
It has been said that more has been written about Wagner and
his work than any other person in history beside Jesus and
Napoleon. Whether that's right or wrong is an entertaining
thought but it does go to say something about his work being
deeper and more important and relevant than a story about a
little seamstress with consumption or a conflicted Egyptian
princess. Wagner is with one exception in his mature operas
reinterpreting mythology which opens up whole new vistas of
relevance and meaning.
This sounds like a lot of gobbledygook to my ears.
And who needs mythology reinterpreted anyway?
I rest my case.
"reinterpreting mythology opens up whole new vistas of
relevance and meaning". How about Math and Physics then?
Is "reinterpreting mythology" really so much deeper
than science? Methinks not!
Oh you thinks not????? How did math and physics enter
this discussion -
I introduced them! ;-)
I am talking about how Wagner uses mythology is his work.
This is precisely the problem. Does it occur to you many
people have no uses or respect for "mythology"? Some
even think "mythology" is bullshit. All of it! ;-)

Asking for respect for "mythology" is as stupid as asking
for respect for the British Royal Circus (ahem, family)!
Of course some still do, which makes for a convenient
and quick IQ test! ;-)
Who said anything about it being deeper than or different
from math or science. Or are you purposely just trying to
act clueless which is really boring
First, I quoted literally from your post. Second, the notion
a plot based drawn from "mythology" must be inherently deeper
than one based on a (near) life plot of a poor seamstress dying
from TB is so absurdly elitist and implicitly racist that it
ought to be embarrassing for anyone who professes an interest
in art.

Last but not least, you are insulting someone as "clueless"
merely because that person does not subscribe to a shared
system of belief that is rooted in medieval superstition.

Way to go!

dk
Bob Harper
2018-02-02 06:19:34 UTC
Reply
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Post by dk
Post by dk
Post by m***@gmail.com
Post by dk
Post by m***@gmail.com
It has been said that more has been written about Wagner and
his work than any other person in history beside Jesus and
Napoleon. Whether that's right or wrong is an entertaining
thought but it does go to say something about his work being
deeper and more important and relevant than a story about a
little seamstress with consumption or a conflicted Egyptian
princess. Wagner is with one exception in his mature operas
reinterpreting mythology which opens up whole new vistas of
relevance and meaning.
This sounds like a lot of gobbledygook to my ears.
And who needs mythology reinterpreted anyway?
I rest my case.
"reinterpreting mythology opens up whole new vistas of
relevance and meaning". How about Math and Physics then?
Is "reinterpreting mythology" really so much deeper
than science? Methinks not!
Oh you thinks not????? How did math and physics enter
this discussion -
I introduced them! ;-)
I am talking about how Wagner uses mythology is his work.
This is precisely the problem. Does it occur to you many
people have no uses or respect for "mythology"? Some
even think "mythology" is bullshit. All of it! ;-)
Asking for respect for "mythology" is as stupid as asking
for respect for the British Royal Circus (ahem, family)!
Of course some still do, which makes for a convenient
and quick IQ test! ;-)
Who said anything about it being deeper than or different
from math or science. Or are you purposely just trying to
act clueless which is really boring
First, I quoted literally from your post. Second, the notion
a plot based drawn from "mythology" must be inherently deeper
than one based on a (near) life plot of a poor seamstress dying
from TB is so absurdly elitist and implicitly racist that it
ought to be embarrassing for anyone who professes an interest
in art.
Last but not least, you are insulting someone as "clueless"
merely because that person does not subscribe to a shared
system of belief that is rooted in medieval superstition.
Way to go!
dk
Do not be so quick to dismiss mythology, Dan. It contains much nonsense,
but also much truth. Remember, a myth is not a falsehood; it is a way to
express a truth.

Bob Harper
dk
2018-02-02 17:46:14 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Bob Harper
Do not be so quick to dismiss mythology, Dan.
It contains much nonsense, but also much truth.
Remember, a myth is not a falsehood; it is a way
to express a truth.
Expressing the truth directly is far more efficient.
When the truth is buried under layers of allegory
it becomes much harder to discern. And different
people may find different "truths" in the allegory.

dk
Herman
2018-02-02 18:48:31 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by dk
Expressing the truth directly is far more efficient.
When the truth is buried under layers of allegory
it becomes much harder to discern. And different
people may find different "truths" in the allegory.
the Bible sold pretty well, though
graham
2018-02-02 19:00:57 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Herman
Post by dk
Expressing the truth directly is far more efficient.
When the truth is buried under layers of allegory
it becomes much harder to discern. And different
people may find different "truths" in the allegory.
the Bible sold pretty well, though
And, as Shakespeare wrote: "The devil can cite Scripture for his purpose".
m***@gmail.com
2018-02-02 19:12:14 UTC
Reply
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Post by graham
Post by Herman
Post by dk
Expressing the truth directly is far more efficient.
When the truth is buried under layers of allegory
it becomes much harder to discern. And different
people may find different "truths" in the allegory.
the Bible sold pretty well, though
And, as Shakespeare wrote: "The devil can cite Scripture for his purpose".
Sure...like Mike Pence
dk
2018-02-03 04:19:17 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Herman
Post by dk
Expressing the truth directly is far more efficient.
When the truth is buried under layers of allegory
it becomes much harder to discern. And different
people may find different "truths" in the allegory.
the Bible sold pretty well, though
Indeed. It is the only book (or one
of the few) that can be successfully
sold to people who cannot read! ;-)

dk
KimDenmark
2018-02-03 21:19:05 UTC
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" Auf Parsifal habe ich meine Religion gebaut " A.H.
m***@gmail.com
2018-02-03 22:55:54 UTC
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Post by KimDenmark
" Auf Parsifal habe ich meine Religion gebaut " A.H.
So??? you blame Wagner for that???
g***@gmail.com
2018-01-31 02:48:10 UTC
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Post by m***@gmail.com
Post by Herman
Post by g***@gmail.com
If Wagner does anything, it's to polarize people when it comes to evaluating his work.
Most people just listen in awe or joy.
At least half of the people in this topic have never been at the performance of Parisifal or any Wagner work.
It has been said that more has been written about Wagner and his work than any other person in history beside Jesus and Napoleon. Whether that's right or wrong is an entertaining thought but it does go to say something about his work being deeper and more important and relevant than a story about a little seamstress with consumption or a conflicted Egyptian princess. Wagner is with one exception in his mature operas reinterpreting mythology which opens up whole new vistas of relevance and meaning. Unfortunately so much nonsense has been written about this composer from both admirers and haters that it has colored much opinion about him Was he a saint - far from it but like many artists the best part of him came through his art and work. I'm not going t spend much more time on this since many have made up their minds pro or con and won't change no matter what is presented to them and I believe in "economy of effort"
Could Wagner be thought of as a musical Jesus in that he wanted his operas to start a new religion with him as the high priest and Bayreuth as his sacred temple?
m***@gmail.com
2018-01-31 03:31:46 UTC
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Post by g***@gmail.com
Post by m***@gmail.com
Post by Herman
Post by g***@gmail.com
If Wagner does anything, it's to polarize people when it comes to evaluating his work.
Most people just listen in awe or joy.
At least half of the people in this topic have never been at the performance of Parisifal or any Wagner work.
It has been said that more has been written about Wagner and his work than any other person in history beside Jesus and Napoleon. Whether that's right or wrong is an entertaining thought but it does go to say something about his work being deeper and more important and relevant than a story about a little seamstress with consumption or a conflicted Egyptian princess. Wagner is with one exception in his mature operas reinterpreting mythology which opens up whole new vistas of relevance and meaning. Unfortunately so much nonsense has been written about this composer from both admirers and haters that it has colored much opinion about him Was he a saint - far from it but like many artists the best part of him came through his art and work. I'm not going t spend much more time on this since many have made up their minds pro or con and won't change no matter what is presented to them and I believe in "economy of effort"
Could Wagner be thought of as a musical Jesus in that he wanted his operas to start a new religion with him as the high priest and Bayreuth as his sacred temple?
Uhhh.....no
Oscar
2018-01-31 06:42:30 UTC
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Post by m***@gmail.com
It has been said that more has been written about Wagner and his work than any other person in
history beside Jesus and Napoleon...Wagner is with one exception in his mature operas
reinterpreting mythology which opens up whole new vistas of relevance and meaning. Unfortunately
so much nonsense has been written about this composer from both admirers and haters that it has
colored much opinion about him...
I wholeheartedly recommend you read the new book by the estimable philosopher and conservative thinker, Roger Scruton, whose new book The Ring of Truth: The Wisdom of Wagner's Ring of the Nibelung (first published in the U.K. in 2016) http://amzn.to/2fXGVwY If you want to go "into the weeds" with some great thinking look no further. This book is already the most erudite and thoughtful non-biographical book on Wagner of the century. Yes, it is books such as Scruton's which reaffirm the belief that Wagner is the greatest of the great composers. In my humble Mischling opinion, of course.
Oscar
2018-01-31 06:42:48 UTC
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From The Economist http://econ.st/2yaPVJb

<< Wagner’s “Ring” cycle
Getting into Valhalla
How to understand the most daunting opera ever written

The Ring of Truth: The Wisdom of Wagner’s Ring of the Nibelung.
By Roger Scruton. Allen Lane; 400 pages; £25.
Jun 23rd 2016

It is gargantuan in every way. The “Ring of the Nibelung”, known as the “Ring” cycle, lasts about 15 hours and is performed over four evenings. A new instrument, the “Wagner tuba”, was invented for it; a concert hall, the Bayreuth Festspielhaus, constructed for its premiere. Its composer, Richard Wagner (1813-83), began writing the opera in 1848, a year when Europe was torn by nationalist and democratic revolutions, but did not finish it until 26 years later. The finished product is considered the finest piece of musical theatre ever written, a sweeping artistic expression of a period in which the world was swiftly moving towards modernity. Sir Roger Scruton, a newly knighted English philosopher, tries to make sense of it in his latest book, “The Ring of Truth”.

Based on a knitting together of German and Icelandic tales, the opera revolves around a ring, fashioned in gold from the Rhine by Alberich, a dwarf, that grants the power to rule the world. The struggles over the ring lead to love, betrayal and death, as well as the end of the rule of the gods. (Many of these themes are also found in J.R.R. Tolkien’s “Lord of the Rings”; Tolkien unconvincingly denied that he had been influenced by Wagner.)

The “Ring” cycle is notable for its 150 or so leitmotifs, musical phrases associated with an idea or character. They do not simply accompany the libretto but also reveal the subconscious feelings of the characters or what will happen later in the story. For instance, the “nature” leitmotif, a rising major arpeggio, opens the opera and is associated with the majesty and life of the rushing river Rhine. But later Wagner flips it on its head—with the notes now moving downwards—to signify its opposite: the inevitable decay and death of the gods.

Rising out of the foment of the mid-19th century, the “Ring” is often seen as a work with strong Marxist overtones. George Bernard Shaw, an Irish playwright and critic, argued that the Tarnhelm, a magic helmet central to the drama, is really the top hat of the capitalist class. Siegfried, a mortal who “knows no fear” and who undermines the system, is said to represent Mikhail Bakunin, a Russian anarchist. Wagner was no fan of industrialisation: his depiction, to the sound of 18 anvils, of Alberich’s enslaved dwarves mining more gold, is terrifying. But it is unclear whether he read Marx. In any case Sir Roger has no time for sweeping theoretical interpretations. “[I]t is a vast diminution of Wagner’s drama to pin such a thin Marxist allegory to its extraordinary and believable characters,” he sniffs.

He is keener on a rich, historical account. Wagner lived at a time of philosophical changes that have had a lasting impact on how we see ourselves. The Enlightenment, a movement which gripped Europe from the 18th century, loosened the hold of the Church in favour of rational thought. The works of Hegel were particularly important ingredients in the “Ring”. “Like the Hegelians, Wagner saw the contest over religion as the decisive episode in the emergence of the modern world,” Sir Roger writes.

On one level, the story is about Siegfried realising his freedom as an individual, in which he breaks from the stifling rule of the gods—an optimistic account associated with the ideas of Ludwig Feuerbach, one of Hegel’s disciples, who heavily influenced Marx. Yet Siegfried struggles in his condition of freedom. “Götterdämmerung” (or “Twilight of the Gods”), the final, five-hour opera, explores the disconcerting idea that without the gods we are left alone. We know that we cannot live up to the perfect standards set by our old masters; and yet all we have to enforce good behaviour is ourselves. To revolutionaries watching the “Ring”, this was a wake-up call: the opera showed that socialist dreams were every bit as illusory as the religion they had set out to replace.

Sir Roger is not always so attuned to historical and philosophical context. Take his discussion of anti-Semitism, which looms large in the popular understanding of Wagner. Scholars enjoy mining the operas for evidence of how anti-Jewish Wagner “really” was (Alberich, the money-grabbing dwarf, is a particularly controversial character). But in Sir Roger’s view, these critics’ single-minded focus on Wagner’s anti-Semitism means that they fail to understand the many other ideas explored in the operas. While this has some truth, in his own analysis he overcompensates, choosing to ignore the anti-Semitism theme almost entirely. It is a bizarre choice, which leaves the discussion incomplete.

The “Ring” cycle may be a European work nearing its 140th birthday, but Sir Roger is surely right to argue that it still has “relevance to the world in which we live”. The existential consequences of throwing off the yoke of religion is debated in many countries. Europe is swept by movements seeking to break free from certain structures of society towards some nebulous alternative. Moreover, Sir Roger successfully shows just how important the “Ring” was to the history of music and philosophy. After reading this book, only the most unadventurous reader would turn down the chance to see Wagner’s masterpiece. >>
m***@gmail.com
2018-01-31 09:29:52 UTC
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Post by Oscar
From The Economist http://econ.st/2yaPVJb
<< Wagner’s “Ring” cycle
Getting into Valhalla
How to understand the most daunting opera ever written
The Ring of Truth: The Wisdom of Wagner’s Ring of the Nibelung.
By Roger Scruton. Allen Lane; 400 pages; £25.
Jun 23rd 2016
It is gargantuan in every way. The “Ring of the Nibelung”, known as the “Ring” cycle, lasts about 15 hours and is performed over four evenings. A new instrument, the “Wagner tuba”, was invented for it; a concert hall, the Bayreuth Festspielhaus, constructed for its premiere. Its composer, Richard Wagner (1813-83), began writing the opera in 1848, a year when Europe was torn by nationalist and democratic revolutions, but did not finish it until 26 years later. The finished product is considered the finest piece of musical theatre ever written, a sweeping artistic expression of a period in which the world was swiftly moving towards modernity. Sir Roger Scruton, a newly knighted English philosopher, tries to make sense of it in his latest book, “The Ring of Truth”.
Based on a knitting together of German and Icelandic tales, the opera revolves around a ring, fashioned in gold from the Rhine by Alberich, a dwarf, that grants the power to rule the world. The struggles over the ring lead to love, betrayal and death, as well as the end of the rule of the gods. (Many of these themes are also found in J.R.R. Tolkien’s “Lord of the Rings”; Tolkien unconvincingly denied that he had been influenced by Wagner.)
The “Ring” cycle is notable for its 150 or so leitmotifs, musical phrases associated with an idea or character. They do not simply accompany the libretto but also reveal the subconscious feelings of the characters or what will happen later in the story. For instance, the “nature” leitmotif, a rising major arpeggio, opens the opera and is associated with the majesty and life of the rushing river Rhine. But later Wagner flips it on its head—with the notes now moving downwards—to signify its opposite: the inevitable decay and death of the gods.
Rising out of the foment of the mid-19th century, the “Ring” is often seen as a work with strong Marxist overtones. George Bernard Shaw, an Irish playwright and critic, argued that the Tarnhelm, a magic helmet central to the drama, is really the top hat of the capitalist class. Siegfried, a mortal who “knows no fear” and who undermines the system, is said to represent Mikhail Bakunin, a Russian anarchist. Wagner was no fan of industrialisation: his depiction, to the sound of 18 anvils, of Alberich’s enslaved dwarves mining more gold, is terrifying. But it is unclear whether he read Marx. In any case Sir Roger has no time for sweeping theoretical interpretations. “[I]t is a vast diminution of Wagner’s drama to pin such a thin Marxist allegory to its extraordinary and believable characters,” he sniffs.
He is keener on a rich, historical account. Wagner lived at a time of philosophical changes that have had a lasting impact on how we see ourselves. The Enlightenment, a movement which gripped Europe from the 18th century, loosened the hold of the Church in favour of rational thought. The works of Hegel were particularly important ingredients in the “Ring”. “Like the Hegelians, Wagner saw the contest over religion as the decisive episode in the emergence of the modern world,” Sir Roger writes.
On one level, the story is about Siegfried realising his freedom as an individual, in which he breaks from the stifling rule of the gods—an optimistic account associated with the ideas of Ludwig Feuerbach, one of Hegel’s disciples, who heavily influenced Marx. Yet Siegfried struggles in his condition of freedom. “Götterdämmerung” (or “Twilight of the Gods”), the final, five-hour opera, explores the disconcerting idea that without the gods we are left alone. We know that we cannot live up to the perfect standards set by our old masters; and yet all we have to enforce good behaviour is ourselves. To revolutionaries watching the “Ring”, this was a wake-up call: the opera showed that socialist dreams were every bit as illusory as the religion they had set out to replace.
Sir Roger is not always so attuned to historical and philosophical context. Take his discussion of anti-Semitism, which looms large in the popular understanding of Wagner. Scholars enjoy mining the operas for evidence of how anti-Jewish Wagner “really” was (Alberich, the money-grabbing dwarf, is a particularly controversial character). But in Sir Roger’s view, these critics’ single-minded focus on Wagner’s anti-Semitism means that they fail to understand the many other ideas explored in the operas. While this has some truth, in his own analysis he overcompensates, choosing to ignore the anti-Semitism theme almost entirely. It is a bizarre choice, which leaves the discussion incomplete.
The “Ring” cycle may be a European work nearing its 140th birthday, but Sir Roger is surely right to argue that it still has “relevance to the world in which we live”. The existential consequences of throwing off the yoke of religion is debated in many countries. Europe is swept by movements seeking to break free from certain structures of society towards some nebulous alternative. Moreover, Sir Roger successfully shows just how important the “Ring” was to the history of music and philosophy. After reading this book, only the most unadventurous reader would turn down the chance to see Wagner’s masterpiece. >>
Thanks much for this - I would also recommend two books by Brian Magee - Aspects of Wagner - one of the shortest and best books on the composer and his work and the Tristan Chord also brilliantly written. I will read your recommendation - I already concur with his choice to mitigate any aspects of anti-Semitism in Wagner's work since I don't believe there is any for a number of reasons.
m***@gmail.com
2018-01-31 09:31:55 UTC
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Post by Oscar
From The Economist http://econ.st/2yaPVJb
<< Wagner’s “Ring” cycle
Getting into Valhalla
How to understand the most daunting opera ever written
The Ring of Truth: The Wisdom of Wagner’s Ring of the Nibelung.
By Roger Scruton. Allen Lane; 400 pages; £25.
Jun 23rd 2016
It is gargantuan in every way. The “Ring of the Nibelung”, known as the “Ring” cycle, lasts about 15 hours and is performed over four evenings. A new instrument, the “Wagner tuba”, was invented for it; a concert hall, the Bayreuth Festspielhaus, constructed for its premiere. Its composer, Richard Wagner (1813-83), began writing the opera in 1848, a year when Europe was torn by nationalist and democratic revolutions, but did not finish it until 26 years later. The finished product is considered the finest piece of musical theatre ever written, a sweeping artistic expression of a period in which the world was swiftly moving towards modernity. Sir Roger Scruton, a newly knighted English philosopher, tries to make sense of it in his latest book, “The Ring of Truth”.
Based on a knitting together of German and Icelandic tales, the opera revolves around a ring, fashioned in gold from the Rhine by Alberich, a dwarf, that grants the power to rule the world. The struggles over the ring lead to love, betrayal and death, as well as the end of the rule of the gods. (Many of these themes are also found in J.R.R. Tolkien’s “Lord of the Rings”; Tolkien unconvincingly denied that he had been influenced by Wagner.)
The “Ring” cycle is notable for its 150 or so leitmotifs, musical phrases associated with an idea or character. They do not simply accompany the libretto but also reveal the subconscious feelings of the characters or what will happen later in the story. For instance, the “nature” leitmotif, a rising major arpeggio, opens the opera and is associated with the majesty and life of the rushing river Rhine. But later Wagner flips it on its head—with the notes now moving downwards—to signify its opposite: the inevitable decay and death of the gods.
Rising out of the foment of the mid-19th century, the “Ring” is often seen as a work with strong Marxist overtones. George Bernard Shaw, an Irish playwright and critic, argued that the Tarnhelm, a magic helmet central to the drama, is really the top hat of the capitalist class. Siegfried, a mortal who “knows no fear” and who undermines the system, is said to represent Mikhail Bakunin, a Russian anarchist. Wagner was no fan of industrialisation: his depiction, to the sound of 18 anvils, of Alberich’s enslaved dwarves mining more gold, is terrifying. But it is unclear whether he read Marx. In any case Sir Roger has no time for sweeping theoretical interpretations. “[I]t is a vast diminution of Wagner’s drama to pin such a thin Marxist allegory to its extraordinary and believable characters,” he sniffs.
He is keener on a rich, historical account. Wagner lived at a time of philosophical changes that have had a lasting impact on how we see ourselves. The Enlightenment, a movement which gripped Europe from the 18th century, loosened the hold of the Church in favour of rational thought. The works of Hegel were particularly important ingredients in the “Ring”. “Like the Hegelians, Wagner saw the contest over religion as the decisive episode in the emergence of the modern world,” Sir Roger writes.
On one level, the story is about Siegfried realising his freedom as an individual, in which he breaks from the stifling rule of the gods—an optimistic account associated with the ideas of Ludwig Feuerbach, one of Hegel’s disciples, who heavily influenced Marx. Yet Siegfried struggles in his condition of freedom. “Götterdämmerung” (or “Twilight of the Gods”), the final, five-hour opera, explores the disconcerting idea that without the gods we are left alone. We know that we cannot live up to the perfect standards set by our old masters; and yet all we have to enforce good behaviour is ourselves. To revolutionaries watching the “Ring”, this was a wake-up call: the opera showed that socialist dreams were every bit as illusory as the religion they had set out to replace.
Sir Roger is not always so attuned to historical and philosophical context. Take his discussion of anti-Semitism, which looms large in the popular understanding of Wagner. Scholars enjoy mining the operas for evidence of how anti-Jewish Wagner “really” was (Alberich, the money-grabbing dwarf, is a particularly controversial character). But in Sir Roger’s view, these critics’ single-minded focus on Wagner’s anti-Semitism means that they fail to understand the many other ideas explored in the operas. While this has some truth, in his own analysis he overcompensates, choosing to ignore the anti-Semitism theme almost entirely. It is a bizarre choice, which leaves the discussion incomplete.
The “Ring” cycle may be a European work nearing its 140th birthday, but Sir Roger is surely right to argue that it still has “relevance to the world in which we live”. The existential consequences of throwing off the yoke of religion is debated in many countries. Europe is swept by movements seeking to break free from certain structures of society towards some nebulous alternative. Moreover, Sir Roger successfully shows just how important the “Ring” was to the history of music and philosophy. After reading this book, only the most unadventurous reader would turn down the chance to see Wagner’s masterpiece. >>
Thanks much for this - I would also recommend two books by Brian Magee - Aspects of Wagner - one of the shortest and best books on the composer and his work and the Tristan Chord also brilliantly written. I will read your recommendation - I already concur with his choice to mitigate any aspects of anti-Semitism in Wagner's work since I don't believe there is any for a number of reasons.
By "Wagners work" I am referring to the operas of course
dk
2018-01-31 18:15:09 UTC
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Post by Oscar
From The Economist http://econ.st/2yaPVJb
<< Wagner’s “Ring” cycle
Getting into Valhalla
How to understand the most daunting opera ever written
The fundamental problem with this thesis is that art must
be first "understood" in order for one to appreciate and
enjoy it. Needless to say, many would disagree with such
points of view.

I happen to hold an opposite point of view, namely that
if something cannot be enjoyed directly without prior
knowledge, it is not art! It may be literature, it
may be history, it may be philosophy, or it may
be a hellish mix of the 3. It is not music!

Wagner is the greatest terrorist in music history. He
hijacked hundreds of musicians, abusing and exploiting
them to promote his philosophical and religious ideas!

What a shame!

dk
Herman
2018-01-31 19:02:38 UTC
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Post by dk
I happen to hold an opposite point of view, namely that
if something cannot be enjoyed directly without prior
knowledge, it is not art! It may be literature, it
may be history, it may be philosophy, or it may
be a hellish mix of the 3. It is not music!
Wagner is the greatest terrorist in music history. He
hijacked hundreds of musicians, abusing and exploiting
them to promote his philosophical and religious ideas!
What a shame!
Look, I'm not into Wagner in any serious way. I have seen Lohen's Grin, Parsifal (twice) and the Ring.

Four hours is a long time.

Yet, I acknowledge great art when I see or hear it. Wagner is incredibly powerful even no matter how you put it. In his music the entire nineteenth is gathered and propelled forward. All composers of the last quarter of the nineteenth century knew this.

People in the theater hear this power, too. Very few of those people have gone into the libretto or Wagner's "ideas" at any length. But the music is just incredible.

If you're only into longhaired young ladies tickling the ivories, Wagner is just too hard. However, this is more about you and your bladder time
dk
2018-01-31 19:56:57 UTC
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Post by Herman
Look, I'm not into Wagner in any serious way.
Good for you!
Post by Herman
I have seen Lohen's Grin, Parsifal
(twice) and the Ring.
Four hours is a long time.
Yep! ;-)
Post by Herman
Yet, I acknowledge great art when I
see or hear it.
Don't we all? ;-)
Post by Herman
Wagner is incredibly powerful even
no matter how you put it.
This could be part of the problem! ;-)
Post by Herman
In his music the entire nineteenth
is gathered and propelled forward.
This could be part of the problem too!
Post by Herman
All composers of the last quarter of
the nineteenth century knew this.
Including Albeniz, Chausson, Debussy,
Faure, Franck, d'Indy, Vierne?
Post by Herman
People in the theater hear this power,
too. Very few of those people have gone
into the libretto or Wagner's "ideas" at
any length. But the music is just incredible.
It is also incredibly repetitive. Polluting
as well. Just think of all the CO2 emitted
by the brass during a Wagner opera! ;-)

In fairness however one must admit Bruckner
is even worse in this respect! I actually
find it rather surprising the EU has not
outlawed brass instruments just on account
of emissions! ;-)
Post by Herman
If you're only into long-haired young ladies
tickling the ivories, Wagner is just too hard.
I wasn't aware Pletnev, Sokolov or Grosvenor
had grown their hair so much! ;-)
Post by Herman
However, this is more about you and your
bladder time
As we all know the bladder is controlled by
the brain. Please don't tell us yours can
be held for 4 hours! ;-)

Just to make the matter clear once and for
all. I heard my first Wagner opera when I
was 4 -- Die Meistersinger. I had heard
all Wagner operas before I was 7. I have
even been to Bayreuth!

I still have about 10 linear feet of shelf
space occupied by Wagner LPs. Like or not,
I am not speaking from ignorance. I am
speaking from disgust.

Wagner hijacked music to an ideological and
political purpose -- by his own admission!
This is inexcusable, no matter how great
and accomplished his craft. If one peels
the ideology away, all that's left is
hours and hours of augmented fourths
and diminished sevenths splattered
all over the orchestra.

dk
m***@gmail.com
2018-01-31 20:12:45 UTC
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Post by dk
Post by Herman
Look, I'm not into Wagner in any serious way.
Good for you!
Post by Herman
I have seen Lohen's Grin, Parsifal
(twice) and the Ring.
Four hours is a long time.
Yep! ;-)
Post by Herman
Yet, I acknowledge great art when I
see or hear it.
Don't we all? ;-)
Post by Herman
Wagner is incredibly powerful even
no matter how you put it.
This could be part of the problem! ;-)
Post by Herman
In his music the entire nineteenth
is gathered and propelled forward.
This could be part of the problem too!
Post by Herman
All composers of the last quarter of
the nineteenth century knew this.
Including Albeniz, Chausson, Debussy,
Faure, Franck, d'Indy, Vierne?
Post by Herman
People in the theater hear this power,
too. Very few of those people have gone
into the libretto or Wagner's "ideas" at
any length. But the music is just incredible.
It is also incredibly repetitive. Polluting
as well. Just think of all the CO2 emitted
by the brass during a Wagner opera! ;-)
In fairness however one must admit Bruckner
is even worse in this respect! I actually
find it rather surprising the EU has not
outlawed brass instruments just on account
of emissions! ;-)
Post by Herman
If you're only into long-haired young ladies
tickling the ivories, Wagner is just too hard.
I wasn't aware Pletnev, Sokolov or Grosvenor
had grown their hair so much! ;-)
Post by Herman
However, this is more about you and your
bladder time
As we all know the bladder is controlled by
the brain. Please don't tell us yours can
be held for 4 hours! ;-)
Just to make the matter clear once and for
all. I heard my first Wagner opera when I
was 4 -- Die Meistersinger. I had heard
all Wagner operas before I was 7. I have
even been to Bayreuth!
I still have about 10 linear feet of shelf
space occupied by Wagner LPs. Like or not,
I am not speaking from ignorance. I am
speaking from disgust.
Wagner hijacked music to an ideological and
political purpose -- by his own admission!
This is inexcusable, no matter how great
and accomplished his craft. If one peels
the ideology away, all that's left is
hours and hours of augmented fourths
and diminished sevenths splattered
all over the orchestra.
dk
"Just to make the matter clear once and for
all. I heard my first Wagner opera when I
was 4 -- Die Meistersinger. I had heard
all Wagner operas before I was 7. I have
even been to Bayreuth! "


HA Ha yeah SURE you have!!!!!! and I have a nice Ponzi scheme for you. Man that was really funny!!!!!!
Herman
2018-01-31 20:18:27 UTC
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Post by m***@gmail.com
HA Ha yeah SURE you have!!!!!! and I have a nice Ponzi scheme for you. Man that was really funny!!!!!!
Yeah, those claims of having been at three earth-shattering concerts at the same time as having dinner in world-class restaurants in Londen, NYC and Paris are a little tiresome, but why not throw in some Bayreuth For Babies?!!

It's the beauty of the internet.
m***@gmail.com
2018-01-31 21:00:04 UTC
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Post by Herman
Post by m***@gmail.com
HA Ha yeah SURE you have!!!!!! and I have a nice Ponzi scheme for you. Man that was really funny!!!!!!
Yeah, those claims of having been at three earth-shattering concerts at the same time as having dinner in world-class restaurants in Londen, NYC and Paris are a little tiresome, but why not throw in some Bayreuth For Babies?!!
It's the beauty of the internet.
Oh those claims must have been before my time here. Look I totally understand how some Jews have a big problem with Wagner I really do. But that doesn't make some of the more ludicrous claims against him and esp his work any more rational or truthful. I guess I should be angrier but I have read all this nonsense before - none of it is original - just the same old allegations and complaints and it easily just bores me now. BTW I have the reference book The Ring of Truth on my birthday wish list!!!
Oscar
2018-01-31 21:26:33 UTC
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If someone reading this thread cannot hear Wagner all over the score of Debussy's Pelléas et Mélisande, I pity him.
Herman
2018-01-31 21:35:38 UTC
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Post by Oscar
If someone reading this thread cannot hear Wagner all over the score of Debussy's Pelléas et Mélisande, I pity him.
DK would need Depends to her Pelléas & Mélisande so that's a foregone conclusion.

Anything over eight minutes is bad.
dk
2018-01-31 21:37:41 UTC
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Post by Herman
DK would need Depends to her Pelléas & Mélisande so
that's a foregone conclusion. Anything over eight
minutes is bad.
My bladder is rated for 110 minutes.

dk
dk
2018-01-31 21:36:34 UTC
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Post by Oscar
If someone reading this thread cannot hear Wagner
all over the score of Debussy's Pelléas et Mélisande,
I pity him.
Of course I one can hear Wagner all over P&M,
and I did too. IMHO it is Debussy's weakest
work in a genre that he doesn't understand.

Fake, Frenchified Wagner! ;-)

dk
Herman
2018-01-31 20:24:33 UTC
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Post by dk
Post by Herman
All composers of the last quarter of
the nineteenth century knew this.
Including Albeniz, Chausson, Debussy,
Faure, Franck, d'Indy, Vierne?
Debussy was crazy about Wagner.
m***@gmail.com
2018-01-31 21:01:17 UTC
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Post by Herman
Post by dk
Post by Herman
All composers of the last quarter of
the nineteenth century knew this.
Including Albeniz, Chausson, Debussy,
Faure, Franck, d'Indy, Vierne?
Debussy was crazy about Wagner.
Lots of French are- when I saw the Chereau Ring at Bayreuth the last year it was presented there there were sure a lot of French in the audience
m***@gmail.com
2018-02-01 02:12:40 UTC
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Post by Herman
Post by dk
Post by Herman
All composers of the last quarter of
the nineteenth century knew this.
Including Albeniz, Chausson, Debussy,
Faure, Franck, d'Indy, Vierne?
Debussy was crazy about Wagner.
Was he really??? I thought that Debussy was looking for something totally different from Wagner for his Pelleas. I am speaking of the text he was searching for. Perhaps he felt differently about the music itself
g***@gmail.com
2018-02-04 06:39:02 UTC
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Post by Herman
Post by dk
Post by Herman
All composers of the last quarter of
the nineteenth century knew this.
Including Albeniz, Chausson, Debussy,
Faure, Franck, d'Indy, Vierne?
Debussy was crazy about Wagner.
According to the following recent article:

- Musically, it is Wagner’s most subtle and beautiful score, described by Debussy as “one of the loveliest monuments of sound ever raised to the serene glory of music”.

https://www.limelightmagazine.com.au/features/parsifal-richard-wagner-and-the-holy-grail/
g***@gmail.com
2018-02-04 06:42:39 UTC
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Post by g***@gmail.com
Post by Herman
Post by dk
Post by Herman
All composers of the last quarter of
the nineteenth century knew this.
Including Albeniz, Chausson, Debussy,
Faure, Franck, d'Indy, Vierne?
Debussy was crazy about Wagner.
- Musically, it is Wagner’s most subtle and beautiful score, described by Debussy as “one of the loveliest monuments of sound ever raised to the serene glory of music”.
https://www.limelightmagazine.com.au/features/parsifal-richard-wagner-and-the-holy-grail/
According to the following:

- Debussy had fallen under Wagner’s spell when he saw Tristan und Isolde at Bayreuth in 1889, and, as Griffiths notes, his luminous orchestration of Pelléas (as if "lit from behind") owes much to Parsifal.

http://www.classicalnotes.net/opera/pelleas.html
m***@gmail.com
2018-02-04 10:21:52 UTC
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Post by g***@gmail.com
Post by g***@gmail.com
Post by Herman
Post by dk
Post by Herman
All composers of the last quarter of
the nineteenth century knew this.
Including Albeniz, Chausson, Debussy,
Faure, Franck, d'Indy, Vierne?
Debussy was crazy about Wagner.
- Musically, it is Wagner’s most subtle and beautiful score, described by Debussy as “one of the loveliest monuments of sound ever raised to the serene glory of music”.
https://www.limelightmagazine.com.au/features/parsifal-richard-wagner-and-the-holy-grail/
- Debussy had fallen under Wagner’s spell when he saw Tristan und Isolde at Bayreuth in 1889, and, as Griffiths notes, his luminous orchestration of Pelléas (as if "lit from behind") owes much to Parsifal.
http://www.classicalnotes.net/opera/pelleas.html
You should do some more research.
graham
2018-02-04 15:56:24 UTC
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Post by m***@gmail.com
Post by g***@gmail.com
Post by g***@gmail.com
Post by Herman
Post by dk
Post by Herman
All composers of the last quarter of
the nineteenth century knew this.
Including Albeniz, Chausson, Debussy,
Faure, Franck, d'Indy, Vierne?
Debussy was crazy about Wagner.
- Musically, it is Wagner’s most subtle and beautiful score, described by Debussy as “one of the loveliest monuments of sound ever raised to the serene glory of music”.
https://www.limelightmagazine.com.au/features/parsifal-richard-wagner-and-the-holy-grail/
- Debussy had fallen under Wagner’s spell when he saw Tristan und Isolde at Bayreuth in 1889, and, as Griffiths notes, his luminous orchestration of Pelléas (as if "lit from behind") owes much to Parsifal.
http://www.classicalnotes.net/opera/pelleas.html
You should do some more research.
Don't encourage him!
O
2018-02-05 14:18:18 UTC
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Post by graham
Post by m***@gmail.com
Post by Herman
Post by dk
Post by Herman
All composers of the last quarter of
the nineteenth century knew this.
Including Albeniz, Chausson, Debussy,
Faure, Franck, d'Indy, Vierne?
Debussy was crazy about Wagner.
- Musically, it is Wagner¹s most subtle and beautiful score, described by
Debussy as ³one of the loveliest monuments of sound ever raised to the
serene glory of music².
https://www.limelightmagazine.com.au/features/parsifal-richard-wagner-and-
the-holy-grail/
- Debussy had fallen under Wagner¹s spell when he saw Tristan und Isolde
at Bayreuth in 1889, and, as Griffiths notes, his luminous orchestration
of Pelléas (as if "lit from behind") owes much to Parsifal.
http://www.classicalnotes.net/opera/pelleas.html
You should do some more research.
Don't encourage him!
Maybe he'll find a ridiculously long quote or two!

-Owen
KimDenmark
2018-02-05 14:50:46 UTC
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No, of course I don´t blame Wagner for Hitler´s craziness.

Wagner was just another virulent nationalistic anti-semite in his time. However, he used his considerable music skills to propagate the idea of the horrible jew and how only a purified Aryan race could save Germanic culture. I am not a musicologist, but can refer you to Marc A. Weiner´s “ Richard Wagner and the anti –semitic imagination “ for a scholarly view.

I became interested in Wagner, because his music leaves me cold and a lot of musicians I respect have ( and had ) high opinions of RWs work. I had a feeling; I missed out on something and devoted a considerable amount of time to get at least acquainted with Wagner´s operas and his artistical universe. But still, his operas either bore or downright aggravate me. My kind of classical music is the instrumental austro – german tradition ( Bach to Bruckner and Brahms ); pure music, absolute music or whatever we should call it. Opera is a whole different ballgame; musical theatre, that to my sorry ears demeans both music and theatre.
Wagner was a very effective and affective composer; he would have been perfect for scoring newsreels during the third Reich. The particular religious experience Wagner would have like to developed in those listening to his music, is an experience I´m glad most of us don´t subscribe to.

Cheers, Kim
Raymond Hall
2018-02-05 16:31:31 UTC
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-I became interested in Wagner, because his music leaves me cold and a lot of musicians I
-respect have ( and had ) high opinions of RWs work. I had a feeling; I missed out on
-something and devoted a considerable amount of time to get at least acquainted with
-Wagner´s operas and his artistical universe. But still, his operas either bore or
-downright aggravate me. My kind of classical music is the instrumental austro – german
-tradition ( -Bach to Bruckner and Brahms ); pure music, absolute music or whatever we
-should call it. -Opera is a whole different ballgame; musical theatre, that to my sorry
-ears demeans both music and theatre. 
-Wagner was a very effective and affective composer; he would have been perfect for
-scoring newsreels during the third Reich. The particular religious experience Wagner
-would have like to developed in those listening to his music, is an experience I´m glad
-most of us don´t subscribe to. 

-Cheers, Kim 

My feelings exactly, and well said. As you say, Wagner had no direct connection with Hitler and his thugs, but rather that they found an obvious connection with him. He laid a very fertile ground for nationalistic tendencies to flourish. The degree of narcissism in much of Wagner's music I find particularly repulsive, and many critics have pointed out that Parsifal ultimately represents the worship of self.

Sibelius, as only one particular example, worshipped nature. To me, that represents a far nobler experience of what could be a religious experience for many.

Ray Hall, Taree
Ricardo Jimenez
2018-02-05 16:44:06 UTC
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On Mon, 5 Feb 2018 06:50:46 -0800 (PST), KimDenmark
Post by KimDenmark
No, of course I don´t blame Wagner for Hitler´s craziness.
Wagner was just another virulent nationalistic anti-semite in his time. However, he used his considerable music skills to propagate the idea of the horrible jew and how only a purified Aryan race could save Germanic culture. I am not a musicologist, but can refer you to Marc A. Weiner´s “ Richard Wagner and the anti –semitic imagination “ for a scholarly view.
I became interested in Wagner, because his music leaves me cold and a lot of musicians I respect have ( and had ) high opinions of RWs work. I had a feeling; I missed out on something and devoted a considerable amount of time to get at least acquainted with Wagner´s operas and his artistical universe. But still, his operas either bore or downright aggravate me. My kind of classical music is the instrumental austro – german tradition ( Bach to Bruckner and Brahms ); pure music, absolute music or whatever we should call it. Opera is a whole different ballgame; musical theatre, that to my sorry ears demeans both music and theatre.
Wagner was a very effective and affective composer; he would have been perfect for scoring newsreels during the third Reich. The particular religious experience Wagner would have like to developed in those listening to his music, is an experience I´m glad most of us don´t subscribe to.
Cheers, Kim
There are plenty of "symphonic synthesis" recordings of Wagner's music
dramas around. The earliest are by Stokowski but quite a few others
have been done since his. For example there is an hour and a half of
the Ring for orchestra, arranged by Daniel Tarkmann, on Spotify. Do
they make Wagner more palatable to you?
dk
2018-02-05 17:45:02 UTC
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Post by Ricardo Jimenez
There are plenty of "symphonic synthesis" recordings of Wagner's music
dramas around. The earliest are by Stokowski but quite a few others
have been done since his. For example there is an hour and a half of
the Ring for orchestra, arranged by Daniel Tarkmann, on Spotify. Do
they make Wagner more palatable to you?
The finest instrumental/orchestral synthesis of
Wagner's music is Schoenberg's Verklaerte Nacht!

dk
dk
2018-02-05 17:43:41 UTC
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Post by KimDenmark
No, of course I don´t blame Wagner for Hitler´s craziness.
Wagner was just another virulent nationalistic anti-semite in his time. However, he used his considerable music skills to propagate the idea of the horrible jew and how only a purified Aryan race could save Germanic culture. I am not a musicologist, but can refer you to Marc A. Weiner´s “ Richard Wagner and the anti –semitic imagination “ for a scholarly view.
I became interested in Wagner, because his music leaves me cold and a lot of musicians I respect have ( and had ) high opinions of RWs work. I had a feeling; I missed out on something and devoted a considerable amount of time to get at least acquainted with Wagner´s operas and his artistical universe. But still, his operas either bore or downright aggravate me. My kind of classical music is the instrumental austro – german tradition ( Bach to Bruckner and Brahms ); pure music, absolute music or whatever we should call it. Opera is a whole different ballgame; musical theatre, that to my sorry ears demeans both music and theatre.
Wagner was a very effective and affective composer; he would have been perfect for scoring newsreels during the third Reich. The particular religious experience Wagner would have like to developed in those listening to his music, is an experience I´m glad most of us don´t subscribe to.
Thanks! A voice of reason.

dk
m***@gmail.com
2018-02-05 17:52:00 UTC
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Post by KimDenmark
No, of course I don´t blame Wagner for Hitler´s craziness.
Wagner was just another virulent nationalistic anti-semite in his time. However, he used his considerable music skills to propagate the idea of the horrible jew and how only a purified Aryan race could save Germanic culture. I am not a musicologist, but can refer you to Marc A. Weiner´s “ Richard Wagner and the anti –semitic imagination “ for a scholarly view.
I became interested in Wagner, because his music leaves me cold and a lot of musicians I respect have ( and had ) high opinions of RWs work. I had a feeling; I missed out on something and devoted a considerable amount of time to get at least acquainted with Wagner´s operas and his artistical universe. But still, his operas either bore or downright aggravate me. My kind of classical music is the instrumental austro – german tradition ( Bach to Bruckner and Brahms ); pure music, absolute music or whatever we should call it. Opera is a whole different ballgame; musical theatre, that to my sorry ears demeans both music and theatre.
Wagner was a very effective and affective composer; he would have been perfect for scoring newsreels during the third Reich. The particular religious experience Wagner would have like to developed in those listening to his music, is an experience I´m glad most of us don´t subscribe to.
Cheers, Kim
Sorry - there is no anti-Semitism in Wagners music. In his non-musical writings yes but in his music no. The Millington crowd love to find all kinds of magic decoder rings to the music dramas in Wagners writing. I suggest you read Scrutons recent book The Ring of Truth which provides a more rational view. As for your views on opera - they are just your opinion of course and of no interest to me whatsoever.
g***@gmail.com
2018-02-05 18:27:00 UTC
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Post by KimDenmark
No, of course I don´t blame Wagner for Hitler´s craziness.
Wagner was just another virulent nationalistic anti-semite in his time. However, he used his considerable music skills to propagate the idea of the horrible jew and how only a purified Aryan race could save Germanic culture. I am not a musicologist, but can refer you to Marc A. Weiner´s “ Richard Wagner and the anti –semitic imagination “ for a scholarly view.
I became interested in Wagner, because his music leaves me cold and a lot of musicians I respect have ( and had ) high opinions of RWs work. I had a feeling; I missed out on something and devoted a considerable amount of time to get at least acquainted with Wagner´s operas and his artistical universe. But still, his operas either bore or downright aggravate me. My kind of classical music is the instrumental austro – german tradition ( Bach to Bruckner and Brahms ); pure music, absolute music or whatever we should call it. Opera is a whole different ballgame; musical theatre, that to my sorry ears demeans both music and theatre.
Wagner was a very effective and affective composer; he would have been perfect for scoring newsreels during the third Reich. The particular religious experience Wagner would have like to developed in those listening to his music, is an experience I´m glad most of us don´t subscribe to.
Cheers, Kim
Sorry - there is no anti-Semitism in Wagners music. In his non-musical writings yes but in his music no. The Millington crowd love to find all kinds of magic decoder rings to the music dramas in Wagners writing. I suggest you read Scrutons recent book The Ring of Truth which provides a more rational view...
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/humanities.music.composers.wagner/FXC8ots8nmQ
g***@gmail.com
2018-02-05 18:27:46 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by m***@gmail.com
Post by KimDenmark
No, of course I don´t blame Wagner for Hitler´s craziness.
Wagner was just another virulent nationalistic anti-semite in his time. However, he used his considerable music skills to propagate the idea of the horrible jew and how only a purified Aryan race could save Germanic culture. I am not a musicologist, but can refer you to Marc A. Weiner´s “ Richard Wagner and the anti –semitic imagination “ for a scholarly view.
I became interested in Wagner, because his music leaves me cold and a lot of musicians I respect have ( and had ) high opinions of RWs work. I had a feeling; I missed out on something and devoted a considerable amount of time to get at least acquainted with Wagner´s operas and his artistical universe. But still, his operas either bore or downright aggravate me. My kind of classical music is the instrumental austro – german tradition ( Bach to Bruckner and Brahms ); pure music, absolute music or whatever we should call it. Opera is a whole different ballgame; musical theatre, that to my sorry ears demeans both music and theatre.
Wagner was a very effective and affective composer; he would have been perfect for scoring newsreels during the third Reich. The particular religious experience Wagner would have like to developed in those listening to his music, is an experience I´m glad most of us don´t subscribe to.
Cheers, Kim
Sorry - there is no anti-Semitism in Wagners music. In his non-musical writings yes but in his music no. The Millington crowd love to find all kinds of magic decoder rings to the music dramas in Wagners writing. I suggest you read Scrutons recent book The Ring of Truth which provides a more rational view. As for your views on opera - they are just your opinion of course and of no interest to me whatsoever.
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/humanities.music.composers.wagner/va6nn9paRcI
KimDenmark
2018-02-05 19:24:49 UTC
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Permalink
I´ll work my way through Scruton, if you´ll plough trough Marc A. Weiner´s “ Richard Wagner and the anti –semitic imagination “…not going to happen for any of us, right
Weiner does a good job of pointing out how Wagner´s music, libretti and characters are filled with anti – semitic dog – whistles, that every Grossdeutscher Arier would pick up at the time.
You,re right; my opinion about opera versus absolute music is just that; my opinion. I only stated it to clarify my position, so no need to get your blood pressure up. Thinking about this topic made me listen to one of the few recordings of Wagner I haven´t passed on. Listening to the prelude to act 1 of “ Die Meistersinger “ almost made me laugh…the idea that someone can listen to this and feel elevated is not only funny, but also scary. To me, in my humble opinion etc.
m***@gmail.com
2018-02-05 21:36:53 UTC
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Permalink
Post by KimDenmark
I´ll work my way through Scruton, if you´ll plough trough Marc A. Weiner´s “ Richard Wagner and the anti –semitic imagination “…not going to happen for any of us, right
Weiner does a good job of pointing out how Wagner´s music, libretti and characters are filled with anti – semitic dog – whistles, that every Grossdeutscher Arier would pick up at the time.
You,re right; my opinion about opera versus absolute music is just that; my opinion. I only stated it to clarify my position, so no need to get your blood pressure up. Thinking about this topic made me listen to one of the few recordings of Wagner I haven´t passed on. Listening to the prelude to act 1 of “ Die Meistersinger “ almost made me laugh…the idea that someone can listen to this and feel elevated is not only funny, but also scary. To me, in my humble opinion etc.
Actually no they wouldn't. The test for me is if you knew nothing about Wagner the man - knew nothing about his anti-Semitic writings and listened to his music, would you say OMG that's SO anti-semitic!!!!!!!!! of course you wouldn't. Its the man's extra musical activities that color all of your thoughts and ideas about his music. BTW if you knew anything about Wagner the man you would know that being circumspect was not part of his disposition and he would not have gone through this intricate coding process to mask all of these anti-Semitic musical thoughts so that only those "in the know" would understand them. Its absurd. As for reading the book sure I'll give it a try if you try Scruton who by the way tends towards the Right wing and with whon I agree very ottle about other matters. But he is pretty uch on the mark here. More accessible is Bryan Magees Aspects of Wagner - one of the shortest and best books on Wagner where he throws water on a lot of this nonsense.
m***@gmail.com
2018-02-05 21:39:24 UTC
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Post by KimDenmark
I´ll work my way through Scruton, if you´ll plough trough Marc A. Weiner´s “ Richard Wagner and the anti –semitic imagination “…not going to happen for any of us, right
Weiner does a good job of pointing out how Wagner´s music, libretti and characters are filled with anti – semitic dog – whistles, that every Grossdeutscher Arier would pick up at the time.
You,re right; my opinion about opera versus absolute music is just that; my opinion. I only stated it to clarify my position, so no need to get your blood pressure up. Thinking about this topic made me listen to one of the few recordings of Wagner I haven´t passed on. Listening to the prelude to act 1 of “ Die Meistersinger “ almost made me laugh…the idea that someone can listen to this and feel elevated is not only funny, but also scary. To me, in my humble opinion etc.
No problem about my blood pressure - my point in bringing up your ideas about Wagner is that if you don't understand the function of opera as music and theatre working together, there is no way on the world you could have the slightest understanding of Wagners concepts and goals. His anti-Semitism should be the least of your worries since you don't get the larger picture any sense
g***@gmail.com
2018-02-05 18:22:31 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by KimDenmark
No, of course I don´t blame Wagner for Hitler´s craziness.
Wagner was just another virulent nationalistic anti-semite in his time. However, he used his considerable music skills to propagate the idea of the horrible jew and how only a purified Aryan race could save Germanic culture. I am not a musicologist, but can refer you to Marc A. Weiner´s “ Richard Wagner and the anti –semitic imagination “ for a scholarly view.
I became interested in Wagner, because his music leaves me cold and a lot of musicians I respect have ( and had ) high opinions of RWs work. I had a feeling; I missed out on something and devoted a considerable amount of time to get at least acquainted with Wagner´s operas and his artistical universe. But still, his operas either bore or downright aggravate me. My kind of classical music is the instrumental austro – german tradition ( Bach to Bruckner and Brahms )...
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/rec.music.classical/Mm_2Jp3WIg0
g***@gmail.com
2018-02-04 06:44:08 UTC
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Permalink
Post by g***@gmail.com
Post by Herman
Post by dk
Post by Herman
All composers of the last quarter of
the nineteenth century knew this.
Including Albeniz, Chausson, Debussy,
Faure, Franck, d'Indy, Vierne?
Debussy was crazy about Wagner.
- Musically, it is Wagner’s most subtle and beautiful score, described by Debussy as “one of the loveliest monuments of sound ever raised to the serene glory of music”.
https://www.limelightmagazine.com.au/features/parsifal-richard-wagner-and-the-holy-grail/
According to the following:

- Debussy had fallen under Wagner’s spell when he saw Tristan und Isolde at Bayreuth in 1889, and, as Griffiths notes, his luminous orchestration of Pelléas (as if "lit from behind") owes much to Parsifal.

http://www.classicalnotes.net/opera/pelleas.html
g***@gmail.com
2018-02-01 01:06:18 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by dk
Post by Herman
Look, I'm not into Wagner in any serious way.
Good for you!
Post by Herman
I have seen Lohen's Grin, Parsifal
(twice) and the Ring.
Four hours is a long time.
Yep! ;-)
Post by Herman
Yet, I acknowledge great art when I
see or hear it.
Don't we all? ;-)
Post by Herman
Wagner is incredibly powerful even
no matter how you put it.
This could be part of the problem! ;-)
Post by Herman
In his music the entire nineteenth
is gathered and propelled forward.
This could be part of the problem too!
Post by Herman
All composers of the last quarter of
the nineteenth century knew this.
Including Albeniz, Chausson, Debussy,
Faure, Franck, d'Indy, Vierne?
Post by Herman
People in the theater hear this power,
too. Very few of those people have gone
into the libretto or Wagner's "ideas" at
any length. But the music is just incredible.
It is also incredibly repetitive. Polluting
as well. Just think of all the CO2 emitted
by the brass during a Wagner opera! ;-)
In fairness however one must admit Bruckner
is even worse in this respect! I actually
find it rather surprising the EU has not
outlawed brass instruments just on account
of emissions! ;-)
Post by Herman
If you're only into long-haired young ladies
tickling the ivories, Wagner is just too hard.
I wasn't aware Pletnev, Sokolov or Grosvenor
had grown their hair so much! ;-)
Post by Herman
However, this is more about you and your
bladder time
As we all know the bladder is controlled by
the brain...
Not MY bladder.

Uh-uh.
g***@gmail.com
2018-02-01 05:19:39 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by g***@gmail.com
Post by dk
Post by Herman
Look, I'm not into Wagner in any serious way.
Good for you!
Post by Herman
I have seen Lohen's Grin, Parsifal
(twice) and the Ring.
Four hours is a long time.
Yep! ;-)
Post by Herman
Yet, I acknowledge great art when I
see or hear it.
Don't we all? ;-)
Post by Herman
Wagner is incredibly powerful even
no matter how you put it.
This could be part of the problem! ;-)
Post by Herman
In his music the entire nineteenth
is gathered and propelled forward.
This could be part of the problem too!
Post by Herman
All composers of the last quarter of
the nineteenth century knew this.
Including Albeniz, Chausson, Debussy,
Faure, Franck, d'Indy, Vierne?
Post by Herman
People in the theater hear this power,
too. Very few of those people have gone
into the libretto or Wagner's "ideas" at
any length. But the music is just incredible.
It is also incredibly repetitive. Polluting
as well. Just think of all the CO2 emitted
by the brass during a Wagner opera! ;-)
In fairness however one must admit Bruckner
is even worse in this respect! I actually
find it rather surprising the EU has not
outlawed brass instruments just on account
of emissions! ;-)
Post by Herman
If you're only into long-haired young ladies
tickling the ivories, Wagner is just too hard.
I wasn't aware Pletnev, Sokolov or Grosvenor
had grown their hair so much! ;-)
Post by Herman
However, this is more about you and your
bladder time
As we all know the bladder is controlled by
the brain...
Not MY bladder.
Uh-uh.
Once you find yourself at the mercy of your bladder, it will change your entire philosophy of life:

- I urinate, therefore I am.
g***@gmail.com
2018-02-01 05:55:54 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by g***@gmail.com
Post by dk
Post by Herman
Look, I'm not into Wagner in any serious way.
Good for you!
Post by Herman
I have seen Lohen's Grin, Parsifal
(twice) and the Ring.
Four hours is a long time.
Yep! ;-)
Post by Herman
Yet, I acknowledge great art when I
see or hear it.
Don't we all? ;-)
Post by Herman
Wagner is incredibly powerful even
no matter how you put it.
This could be part of the problem! ;-)
Post by Herman
In his music the entire nineteenth
is gathered and propelled forward.
This could be part of the problem too!
Post by Herman
All composers of the last quarter of
the nineteenth century knew this.
Including Albeniz, Chausson, Debussy,
Faure, Franck, d'Indy, Vierne?
Post by Herman
People in the theater hear this power,
too. Very few of those people have gone
into the libretto or Wagner's "ideas" at
any length. But the music is just incredible.
It is also incredibly repetitive. Polluting
as well. Just think of all the CO2 emitted
by the brass during a Wagner opera! ;-)
In fairness however one must admit Bruckner
is even worse in this respect! I actually
find it rather surprising the EU has not
outlawed brass instruments just on account
of emissions! ;-)
Post by Herman
If you're only into long-haired young ladies
tickling the ivories, Wagner is just too hard.
I wasn't aware Pletnev, Sokolov or Grosvenor
had grown their hair so much! ;-)
Post by Herman
However, this is more about you and your
bladder time
As we all know the bladder is controlled by
the brain...
Not MY bladder.
Uh-uh.
Once you find yourself at the mercy of your bladder, it will change your entire philosophy of life:

- I pee, therefore I am.
dk
2018-02-01 07:22:46 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by g***@gmail.com
Post by g***@gmail.com
Post by dk
Post by Herman
Look, I'm not into Wagner in any serious way.
Good for you!
Post by Herman
I have seen Lohen's Grin, Parsifal
(twice) and the Ring.
Four hours is a long time.
Yep! ;-)
Post by Herman
Yet, I acknowledge great art when I
see or hear it.
Don't we all? ;-)
Post by Herman
Wagner is incredibly powerful even
no matter how you put it.
This could be part of the problem! ;-)
Post by Herman
In his music the entire nineteenth
is gathered and propelled forward.
This could be part of the problem too!
Post by Herman
All composers of the last quarter of
the nineteenth century knew this.
Including Albeniz, Chausson, Debussy,
Faure, Franck, d'Indy, Vierne?
Post by Herman
People in the theater hear this power,
too. Very few of those people have gone
into the libretto or Wagner's "ideas" at
any length. But the music is just incredible.
It is also incredibly repetitive. Polluting
as well. Just think of all the CO2 emitted
by the brass during a Wagner opera! ;-)
In fairness however one must admit Bruckner
is even worse in this respect! I actually
find it rather surprising the EU has not
outlawed brass instruments just on account
of emissions! ;-)
Post by Herman
If you're only into long-haired young ladies
tickling the ivories, Wagner is just too hard.
I wasn't aware Pletnev, Sokolov or Grosvenor
had grown their hair so much! ;-)
Post by Herman
However, this is more about you and your
bladder time
As we all know the bladder is controlled by
the brain...
Not MY bladder.
Uh-uh.
Once you find yourself at the mercy of your bladder,
- I pee, therefore I am.
How about "to pee or not to pee?"?
Far more profound! ;-)

dk
g***@gmail.com
2018-02-01 07:53:10 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by dk
Post by g***@gmail.com
Post by g***@gmail.com
Post by dk
Post by Herman
Look, I'm not into Wagner in any serious way.
Good for you!
Post by Herman
I have seen Lohen's Grin, Parsifal
(twice) and the Ring.
Four hours is a long time.
Yep! ;-)
Post by Herman
Yet, I acknowledge great art when I
see or hear it.
Don't we all? ;-)
Post by Herman
Wagner is incredibly powerful even
no matter how you put it.
This could be part of the problem! ;-)
Post by Herman
In his music the entire nineteenth
is gathered and propelled forward.
This could be part of the problem too!
Post by Herman
All composers of the last quarter of
the nineteenth century knew this.
Including Albeniz, Chausson, Debussy,
Faure, Franck, d'Indy, Vierne?
Post by Herman
People in the theater hear this power,
too. Very few of those people have gone
into the libretto or Wagner's "ideas" at
any length. But the music is just incredible.
It is also incredibly repetitive. Polluting
as well. Just think of all the CO2 emitted
by the brass during a Wagner opera! ;-)
In fairness however one must admit Bruckner
is even worse in this respect! I actually
find it rather surprising the EU has not
outlawed brass instruments just on account
of emissions! ;-)
Post by Herman
If you're only into long-haired young ladies
tickling the ivories, Wagner is just too hard.
I wasn't aware Pletnev, Sokolov or Grosvenor
had grown their hair so much! ;-)
Post by Herman
However, this is more about you and your
bladder time
As we all know the bladder is controlled by
the brain...
Not MY bladder.
Uh-uh.
Once you find yourself at the mercy of your bladder,
- I pee, therefore I am.
How about "to pee or not to pee?"?
Far more profound! ;-)
dk
But it's not as if I have a choice.
g***@gmail.com
2018-02-01 08:13:19 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by dk
Post by g***@gmail.com
Post by g***@gmail.com
Post by dk
Post by Herman
Look, I'm not into Wagner in any serious way.
Good for you!
Post by Herman
I have seen Lohen's Grin, Parsifal
(twice) and the Ring.
Four hours is a long time.
Yep! ;-)
Post by Herman
Yet, I acknowledge great art when I
see or hear it.
Don't we all? ;-)
Post by Herman
Wagner is incredibly powerful even
no matter how you put it.
This could be part of the problem! ;-)
Post by Herman
In his music the entire nineteenth
is gathered and propelled forward.
This could be part of the problem too!
Post by Herman
All composers of the last quarter of
the nineteenth century knew this.
Including Albeniz, Chausson, Debussy,
Faure, Franck, d'Indy, Vierne?
Post by Herman
People in the theater hear this power,
too. Very few of those people have gone
into the libretto or Wagner's "ideas" at
any length. But the music is just incredible.
It is also incredibly repetitive. Polluting
as well. Just think of all the CO2 emitted
by the brass during a Wagner opera! ;-)
In fairness however one must admit Bruckner
is even worse in this respect! I actually
find it rather surprising the EU has not
outlawed brass instruments just on account
of emissions! ;-)
Post by Herman
If you're only into long-haired young ladies
tickling the ivories, Wagner is just too hard.
I wasn't aware Pletnev, Sokolov or Grosvenor
had grown their hair so much! ;-)
Post by Herman
However, this is more about you and your
bladder time
As we all know the bladder is controlled by
the brain...
Not MY bladder.
Uh-uh.
Once you find yourself at the mercy of your bladder,
- I pee, therefore I am.
How about "to pee or not to pee?"?
Far more profound! ;-)
dk
Hamlet had a choice; I don't.
dk
2018-02-01 07:21:44 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by g***@gmail.com
Post by dk
As we all know the bladder is controlled by
the brain...
Not MY bladder.
Uh-uh.
We know.
Your bladder is controlled by the quote bot! ;-)

dk
dk
2018-01-31 18:21:30 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Oscar
Sir Roger is not always so attuned to historical and
philosophical context. Take his discussion of anti-Semitism,
which looms large in the popular understanding of Wagner.
Scholars enjoy mining the operas for evidence of how anti-
Jewish Wagner “really” was (Alberich, the money-grabbing
dwarf, is a particularly controversial character).
One does not need any evidence from the operas to conclude
Wagner was viciously antisemitic. His views were stated in
writing, both in published articles and in private letters.
Post by Oscar
But in Sir Roger’s view, these critics’ single-minded focus
on Wagner’s anti-Semitism means that they fail to understand
the many other ideas explored in the operas. While this has
some truth, in his own analysis he overcompensates, choosing
to ignore the anti-Semitism theme almost entirely. It is a
bizarre choice, which leaves the discussion incomplete.
The book is clearly a partisan propaganda work.

dk
m***@gmail.com
2018-01-31 20:09:53 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by dk
Post by Oscar
Sir Roger is not always so attuned to historical and
philosophical context. Take his discussion of anti-Semitism,
which looms large in the popular understanding of Wagner.
Scholars enjoy mining the operas for evidence of how anti-
Jewish Wagner “really” was (Alberich, the money-grabbing
dwarf, is a particularly controversial character).
One does not need any evidence from the operas to conclude
Wagner was viciously antisemitic. His views were stated in
writing, both in published articles and in private letters.
Post by Oscar
But in Sir Roger’s view, these critics’ single-minded focus
on Wagner’s anti-Semitism means that they fail to understand
the many other ideas explored in the operas. While this has
some truth, in his own analysis he overcompensates, choosing
to ignore the anti-Semitism theme almost entirely. It is a
bizarre choice, which leaves the discussion incomplete.
The book is clearly a partisan propaganda work.
dk
Sorry but your absurd rantings show that you know very little about this subject, and don't want to know any more. Your opinions about Wagner are just the usual misconceptions that have been bandied about for years, and have been debunked by those scholars who actually know the subject . As for your opinions about the relevance of mythology and your idea that not knowing about a works sources has nothing to do with enhancing ones enjoyment, well all I can say is that if ignorance is bliss you must be very happy indeed. As Barney Frank said "I would be better off talking to my dining room table" and since I also learned in prep the theory of economy of effort ie. Don't waste time talking to a fool" I bid you adieu - or better for you Auf wiedersehen!!!
dk
2018-01-30 19:09:19 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Herman
Post by g***@gmail.com
If Wagner does anything, it's to polarize
people when it comes to evaluating his work.
Most people just listen in awe or joy.
At least half of the people in this topic have
never been at the performance of Parsifal or
any Wagner work.
Where do you get your "facts" from?

dk
g***@gmail.com
2018-01-31 02:45:36 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Herman
Post by g***@gmail.com
If Wagner does anything, it's to polarize people when it comes to evaluating his work.
Most people just listen in awe or joy.
At least half of the people in this topic have never been at the performance of Parisifal or any Wagner work.
After experiencing Parsifal, do you feel more compassionate? The following article concludes:

- Parsifal is not just an opera, it’s a sort of contemplative,
religious experience. Wagner was writing something that came from
deep inside him, a sort of philosophical statement, the idea that
you can never become a proper person unless you’ve learned
compassion. It’s a very beautiful message.

https://michiganavemag.com/richard-wagner-parsifal-at-the-lyric-opera
Ricardo Jimenez
2018-01-30 00:02:48 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by dk
Post by m***@gmail.com
One does not have to succumb to a mystique to
appreciate the richness and profundity of his
operas.
Richness for sure. Profundity? I am skeptical.
Post by m***@gmail.com
They come from the supremely poetic imagination
of a composer and dramatist who stills excites
unquestioning reverence and irrational animosity
and whose work is still the subject of the most
insistent probing, analysis, explication and
special pleading from all corners.
Do you notice the subtle but profound bias in
what you wrote? The folks who reject Wagner
are guilty of "irrational animosity", while
fans are blessed by "unquestioning reverence"!
Post by m***@gmail.com
As the guy in the beer ad says "He must be
doing something right"
Which does not prevent him from doing lots of
things wrong. It is the final balance that
matters, not the "something right" things.
When I have asked people what they like about Wagner, the answer I
usually get is, they like the sound. Here is a thought experiment:
Imagine how successful Wagner would have been if his scores sounded
like Brahms did the orchestration. As an aside, I think Brahms scored
by Wagner would sound great.
m***@gmail.com
2018-01-30 12:42:03 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Ricardo Jimenez
Post by dk
Post by m***@gmail.com
One does not have to succumb to a mystique to
appreciate the richness and profundity of his
operas.
Richness for sure. Profundity? I am skeptical.
Post by m***@gmail.com
They come from the supremely poetic imagination
of a composer and dramatist who stills excites
unquestioning reverence and irrational animosity
and whose work is still the subject of the most
insistent probing, analysis, explication and
special pleading from all corners.
Do you notice the subtle but profound bias in
what you wrote? The folks who reject Wagner
are guilty of "irrational animosity", while
fans are blessed by "unquestioning reverence"!
Post by m***@gmail.com
As the guy in the beer ad says "He must be
doing something right"
Which does not prevent him from doing lots of
things wrong. It is the final balance that
matters, not the "something right" things.
When I have asked people what they like about Wagner, the answer I
Imagine how successful Wagner would have been if his scores sounded
like Brahms did the orchestration. As an aside, I think Brahms scored
by Wagner would sound great.
You think he wasn't successful enough?????
m***@gmail.com
2018-01-30 12:38:43 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by dk
Post by m***@gmail.com
One does not have to succumb to a mystique to
appreciate the richness and profundity of his
operas.
Richness for sure. Profundity? I am skeptical.
Post by m***@gmail.com
They come from the supremely poetic imagination
of a composer and dramatist who stills excites
unquestioning reverence and irrational animosity
and whose work is still the subject of the most
insistent probing, analysis, explication and
special pleading from all corners.
Do you notice the subtle but profound bias in
what you wrote? The folks who reject Wagner
are guilty of "irrational animosity", while
fans are blessed by "unquestioning reverence"!
Post by m***@gmail.com
As the guy in the beer ad says "He must be
doing something right"
Which does not prevent him from doing lots of
things wrong. It is the final balance that
matters, not the "something right" things.
dk
Do you notice the subtle but profound bias in
what you wrote? The folks who reject Wagner
are guilty of "irrational animosity", while
fans are blessed by "unquestioning reverence"!

That's in your own mind - one is just as bad as the other.
m***@gmail.com
2018-01-29 16:30:25 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by jeffc
Post by dk
Coming from a most unlikely source! Wagner and compassion?
Wagner was influenced by Schopenhauer.
If you're not familiar with his influence on Wagner,
it's well worth investigating.
-------------------------------------
Schopenhauer and Parsifal
Wagner had been greatly impressed with his reading of Arthur Schopenhauer in 1854, and this deeply affected his thoughts and practice on music and art. Some writers (e.g. Bryan Magee) see Parsifal as Wagner's last great espousal of Schopenhauerian philosophy.[51] Parsifal can heal Amfortas and redeem Kundry because he shows compassion, which Schopenhauer saw as the highest form of human morality. Moreover, he displays compassion in the face of sexual temptation (act 2, scene 3). Schopenhaurian philosophy also suggests that the only escape from the ever-present temptations of human life is through negation of the Will, and overcoming sexual temptation is in particular a strong form of negation of the Will. When viewed in this light, Parsifal, with its emphasis on Mitleid ("compassion") is a natural follow-on to Tristan und Isolde, where Schopenhauer's influence is perhaps more obvious, with its focus on Sehnen ("yearning"). Indeed, Wagner originally considered including Parsifal as a character in act 3 of Tristan, but later rejected the idea."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parsifal#Schopenhauer_and_Parsifal
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"Parsifal is about compassion," Wigglesworth says. "It's his Buddhist piece, really. It's saying that compassion is the means by which you find peace. It's an incredibly life-affirming piece. I would hate people to think that it's a serious, heavy religious work. It's long, yes, but it's really about rejuvenation – nothing more philosophical than that."
https://www.theguardian.com/music/2011/feb/10/parsifal-wagner-english-national-opera
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I always thought Meistersinger was my "life affirming piece" but Parsifal is right up there
dk
2018-01-29 18:45:45 UTC
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Post by jeffc
Post by dk
Coming from a most unlikely source!
Wagner and compassion?
Wagner was influenced by Schopenhauer.
If you're not familiar with his influence on Wagner,
it's well worth investigating.
Yes of course, I've read my Schopenhauer
when I was in high school over 50 years
ago! And there is a lot more to Wagner
than just Schopenhauer's influence.

dk
g***@gmail.com
2018-01-29 19:42:12 UTC
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Post by jeffc
Post by dk
Coming from a most unlikely source! Wagner and compassion?
Wagner was influenced by Schopenhauer.
If you're not familiar with his influence on Wagner,
it's well worth investigating.
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Schopenhauer and Parsifal
Wagner had been greatly impressed with his reading of Arthur Schopenhauer in 1854, and this deeply affected his thoughts and practice on music and art. Some writers (e.g. Bryan Magee) see Parsifal as Wagner's last great espousal of Schopenhauerian philosophy.[51] Parsifal can heal Amfortas and redeem Kundry because he shows compassion, which Schopenhauer saw as the highest form of human morality. Moreover, he displays compassion in the face of sexual temptation (act 2, scene 3). Schopenhaurian philosophy also suggests that the only escape from the ever-present temptations of human life is through negation of the Will, and overcoming sexual temptation is in particular a strong form of negation of the Will. When viewed in this light, Parsifal, with its emphasis on Mitleid ("compassion") is a natural follow-on to Tristan und Isolde, where Schopenhauer's influence is perhaps more obvious, with its focus on Sehnen ("yearning"). Indeed, Wagner originally considered including Parsifal as a character in act 3 of Tristan, but later rejected the idea."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parsifal#Schopenhauer_and_Parsifal
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"Parsifal is about compassion," Wigglesworth says. "It's his Buddhist piece, really. It's saying that compassion is the means by which you find peace. It's an incredibly life-affirming piece. I would hate people to think that it's a serious, heavy religious work. It's long, yes, but it's really about rejuvenation – nothing more philosophical than that."
https://www.theguardian.com/music/2011/feb/10/parsifal-wagner-english-national-opera
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- Compassion is the basis of morality.

Schopenhauer
m***@gmail.com
2018-01-29 16:23:49 UTC
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Post by dk
Post by g***@gmail.com
- Parsifal is not just an opera, it’s a sort of contemplative,
religious experience. Wagner was writing something that came
from deep inside him, a sort of philosophical statement, the
idea that you can never become a proper person unless you’ve
learned compassion. It’s a very beautiful message.
Coming from a most unlikely source! Wagner and compassion?
In other words, "do as I say, not as I do!"? He was one of
the most vicious characters in the history of art, any art!
Maybe even THE MOST VICIOUS!
dk
Really???? the MOST Vicious ?????Ever??????? Fer sher!!!!!!!!
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