Andras Schiff speaks out against anti-semitism and homophobia in Hungary

[pianomaven]

http://www.tagesspiegel.de/kultur/rechtsruck-in-ungarn-europa-muss-endlich-druck-machen/6065504.html

TD

[Alan Cooper]

Post by pianomaven
http://www.tagesspiegel.de/kultur/rechtsruck-in-ungarn-europa-mus
s-endlich-druck-machen/6065504.html

Thanks for pointing to this interesting interview. The situation in Hungary is dire,
and it is important for well-known and respected figures such as Schiff to speak out.
On the economic collapse and new restrictions placed on the judiciary and religious
institutions, see:

http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/12/19/hungarys-constitutional-revolution/

and the follow-up:

http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/01/02/the-unconstitutional-constitution/

From the Jewish point of view, it does not help that the organized Hungarian Jewish
community is in disarray and riven by scandal:

http://www.jta.org/news/article/2012/01/10/3091120/

AC

[Steven Bornfeld]

Post by Alan Cooper

Post by pianomaven
http://www.tagesspiegel.de/kultur/rechtsruck-in-ungarn-europa-mus
s-endlich-druck-machen/6065504.html

Thanks for pointing to this interesting interview. The situation in Hungary is dire,
and it is important for well-known and respected figures such as Schiff to speak out.
On the economic collapse and new restrictions placed on the judiciary and religious
http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/12/19/hungarys-constitutional-revolution/
http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/01/02/the-unconstitutional-constitution/
From the Jewish point of view, it does not help that the organized Hungarian Jewish
http://www.jta.org/news/article/2012/01/10/3091120/
AC

Thanks, Alan. Me no sprechen sie Deutsche.

Steve

[Mort]

Post by pianomaven
http://www.tagesspiegel.de/kultur/rechtsruck-in-ungarn-europa-mus
s-endlich-druck-machen/6065504.html

Thanks for pointing to this interesting interview. The situation in
Hungary is dire,
and it is important for well-known and respected figures such as Schiff to speak out.
On the economic collapse and new restrictions placed on the judiciary and religious
http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/12/19/hungarys-constitutional-revolution/
http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/01/02/the-unconstitutional-constitution/
From the Jewish point of view, it does not help that the organized Hungarian Jewish
http://www.jta.org/news/article/2012/01/10/3091120/
AC

Thanks, Alan. Me no sprechen sie Deutsche.

Hi,

Sprechen Sie Google translate? With one click, you can get a fairly good
translation.

Mort Linder

Steve

[Dufus]

http://www.tagesspiegel.de/kultur/rechtsruck-in-ungarn-europa-muss-en...
TD

Thanks.

Guess Hungary has its own brand of right-wing nuts , even worse than
our God Offal Party.

Dufu

[pianomaven]

Post by Dufus

http://www.tagesspiegel.de/kultur/rechtsruck-in-ungarn-europa-muss-en...
TD

Thanks.
Guess Hungary has its own brand of right-wing nuts , even worse than
our God Offal Party.

The problem is that they have obtained a majority through disgust with
the Socialists and are now altering the very foundations of Hungarian
society.

The EU should expel Hungary from the union.

TD

[Bob Harper]

Post by pianomaven

Post by Dufus

http://www.tagesspiegel.de/kultur/rechtsruck-in-ungarn-europa-muss-en...
TD

Thanks.
Guess Hungary has its own brand of right-wing nuts , even worse than
our God Offal Party.

The problem is that they have obtained a majority through disgust with
the Socialists and are now altering the very foundations of Hungarian
society.
The EU should expel Hungary from the union.
TD

The current situation is, then, an (over)reaction driven by 'disgust
with the Socialists'. Whatever the cause, it's horrible, as is the
apparently increasing acceptance of casual anti-Semitism among the
European intelligentsia. One would have thought after the last go-round
such attitudes would be forever beyond the pale, but it seems not. Not a
Right/Left problem so much as a human problem.

Bob Harper

[M forever]

Post by Bob Harper

Post by pianomaven

Post by Dufus

http://www.tagesspiegel.de/kultur/rechtsruck-in-ungarn-europa-muss-en...
TD

Thanks.
Guess Hungary has its own brand of right-wing nuts , even worse than
our God Offal Party.

The problem is that they have obtained a majority through disgust with
the Socialists and are now altering the very foundations of Hungarian
society.
The EU should expel Hungary from the union.
TD

The current situation is, then, an (over)reaction driven by 'disgust
with the Socialists'. Whatever the cause, it's horrible, as is the
apparently increasing acceptance of casual anti-Semitism among the
European intelligentsia.

What is the "European intelligentsia"?

Post by Bob Harper
One would have thought after the last go-round
such attitudes would be forever beyond the pale, but it seems not. Not a
Right/Left problem so much as a human problem.
Bob Harper

[Bob Harper]

Post by M forever

Post by Bob Harper

Post by pianomaven

Post by Dufus

http://www.tagesspiegel.de/kultur/rechtsruck-in-ungarn-europa-muss-en...
TD

Thanks.
Guess Hungary has its own brand of right-wing nuts , even worse than
our God Offal Party.

The problem is that they have obtained a majority through disgust with
the Socialists and are now altering the very foundations of Hungarian
society.
The EU should expel Hungary from the union.
TD

The current situation is, then, an (over)reaction driven by 'disgust
with the Socialists'. Whatever the cause, it's horrible, as is the
apparently increasing acceptance of casual anti-Semitism among the
European intelligentsia.

What is the "European intelligentsia"?

See these:
http://www.phyllis-chesler.com/125/the-anti-semitic-intelligentsia
http://www.antisemitism.org.il/article/21825/new-antsemitism-among-european-intelligentsia-dr-rivka-shpak-lissak
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_antisemitism
and this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_Bernard_(diplomat)
and this (especially the last several paragraphs):
http://www.rense.com/general18/rep.htm

As all four make clear, this is not a Left intellectual/Right
intellectual phenomenon. Both are guilty, and both should be ashamed.

Bob Harper

Post by M forever

Post by Bob Harper
One would have thought after the last go-round
such attitudes would be forever beyond the pale, but it seems not. Not a
Right/Left problem so much as a human problem.
Bob Harper

[M forever]

Post by M forever

Post by Bob Harper

Post by pianomaven

Post by Dufus

http://www.tagesspiegel.de/kultur/rechtsruck-in-ungarn-europa-muss-en...
TD

Thanks.
Guess Hungary has its own brand of right-wing nuts , even worse than
our God Offal Party.

The problem is that they have obtained a majority through disgust with
the Socialists and are now altering the very foundations of Hungarian
society.
The EU should expel Hungary from the union.
TD

The current situation is, then, an (over)reaction driven by 'disgust
with the Socialists'. Whatever the cause, it's horrible, as is the
apparently increasing acceptance of casual anti-Semitism among the
European intelligentsia.

What is the "European intelligentsia"?

See these:http://www.phyllis-chesler.com/125/the-anti-semitic-intelligentsiahttp://www.antisemitism.org.il/article/21825/new-antsemitism-among-eu...http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_antisemitism
and this:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_Bernard_(diplomat)
and this (especially the last several paragraphs):http://www.rense.com/general18/rep.htm
As all four make clear, this is not a Left intellectual/Right
intellectual phenomenon. Both are guilty, and both should be ashamed.

Unfortunately, you can not use Wikipedia as a source because when I
used it as a source for information about the Catholic holocaust in
Croatia, you told me that that would get me an F in an American class
room (or something similar to the effect that you categorically refuse
to accept Wikipedia as a source). I do not agree with that as I think
it can be used as a source like any other - carefully and skeptically.
But that is not your declared standard, and it is important that you
stand by your own standards.

That Phyllis Chesler website does not appear to me to be an unbiased
source of information however. She doesn't even tell us why that Lukas
Moodysson guy (never heard of him, BTW - have you?) allegedly didn't
want his movie to be screened in Israel. I couldn't find much other
information about that elsewhere either - but her name kept coming up
all the time in conjunction with that subject.

In any case, I do not think that one more or less unknown Swedish film
maker is representative of "the European Intelligentsia" - whatever
that is. You still haven't defined what that really is. Or did you
just take that from Chesler's website?
The broadly generalized way she uses it is pretty suspect to me - it
kind of sounds like similar anti-semitic slogans like "the Jewish
bankers".

I do remember that French diplomat though. The storm of outrage and
the consequences for his career he faced when he - allegedly - made
these remarks contradict your contention that "casual anti-semitism"
is generally accepted by the "European intelligentsia". On the
contrary, it shows how seriously the subject is taken by many.

But these two - alleged - isolated incidences are nowhere near as
serious nor as representative as the situation that Schiff - very
credibly, I think, and easily verifiable from other sources, too -
describes in Hungary.

But what *is* the "European intelligentsia"?

[Sol L. Siegel]

Post by Bob Harper

Post by M forever
What is the "European intelligentsia"?

http://www.phyllis-chesler.com/125/the-anti-semitic-intelligentsia
http://www.antisemitism.org.il/article/21825/new-antsemitism-among-euro
pean-intelligentsia-dr-rivka-shpak-lissak
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_Bernard_(diplomat)
http://www.rense.com/general18/rep.htm
As all four make clear, this is not a Left intellectual/Right
intellectual phenomenon. Both are guilty, and both should be ashamed.

Those who devolve to anti-semitism give up their right to be called
intellectuals.


- Sol L. Siegel, Philadelphia, PA USA

[M forever]

Post by Sol L. Siegel

Post by Bob Harper

Post by M forever
What is the "European intelligentsia"?

http://www.phyllis-chesler.com/125/the-anti-semitic-intelligentsia
http://www.antisemitism.org.il/article/21825/new-antsemitism-among-euro
pean-intelligentsia-dr-rivka-shpak-lissak
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_Bernard_(diplomat)
http://www.rense.com/general18/rep.htm
As all four make clear, this is not a Left intellectual/Right
intellectual phenomenon. Both are guilty, and both should be ashamed.

Those who devolve to anti-semitism give up their right to be called
intellectuals.

Just anti-semites - or racists, chauvinists and jingoists in general?
Or just anti-semites?

[Sol L. Siegel]

Post by M forever

Post by Sol L. Siegel
Those who devolve to anti-semitism give up their right to be called
intellectuals.

Just anti-semites - or racists, chauvinists and jingoists in general?
Or just anti-semites?

I was thinking specifically of those who allow certain ancient
"arguments" into their "intellectual" baggage. Since that also describes
the others you name, you won't catch me shedding any tears or wringing
my hands should they turn up on Dante's next trip south.

- Sol L. Siegel, Philadelphia, PA USA

[Matthew B. Tepper]

Post by Sol L. Siegel
Those who devolve to anti-semitism give up their right to be called
intellectuals.

Total agreement there, Sol.

[pianomaven]

Post by Matthew B. Tepper

Post by Sol L. Siegel
Those who devolve to anti-semitism give up their right to be called
intellectuals.

Total agreement there, Sol.

Of course you do. As a Jew you are happy to deprive anyone who doesn't
consecrate your superiority of the designation as "intellectual".

No surprise there at all.

What is a more interesting approach is to find out "why" some European
intellectuals still feel threatened by Jews in Europe.

We also might ask the question why white American intellectuals (and
including many Jews) feel threatened by a black President of the USA.

Prejudice was not invented yesterday. And will not disappear because
Tepper or Siegel decide to take away the rights of people's
intellectual status. Indeed, one is reminded of the dictum:

Doctor, cure thyself.

TD

[Bob Harper]

Post by Sol L. Siegel

Post by Bob Harper

Post by M forever
What is the "European intelligentsia"?

http://www.phyllis-chesler.com/125/the-anti-semitic-intelligentsia
http://www.antisemitism.org.il/article/21825/new-antsemitism-among-euro
pean-intelligentsia-dr-rivka-shpak-lissak
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_Bernard_(diplomat)
http://www.rense.com/general18/rep.htm
As all four make clear, this is not a Left intellectual/Right
intellectual phenomenon. Both are guilty, and both should be ashamed.

Those who devolve to anti-semitism give up their right to be called
intellectuals.
- Sol L. Siegel, Philadelphia, PA USA

I agree. Unfortunately, that doesn't exclude them, these days, from
being paid-up members of the 'intelligentsia', i.e. those whose fingers
are in the wind to the Zeitgeist even as they pretend to 'originality'
of thought.

Bob Harper

[herman]

Post by Bob Harper

Post by pianomaven

Post by Dufus

http://www.tagesspiegel.de/kultur/rechtsruck-in-ungarn-europa-muss-en...
TD

Thanks.
Guess Hungary has its own brand of right-wing nuts , even worse than
our God Offal Party.

The problem is that they have obtained a majority through disgust with
the Socialists and are now altering the very foundations of Hungarian
society.
The EU should expel Hungary from the union.
TD

The current situation is, then, an (over)reaction driven by 'disgust
with the Socialists'. Whatever the cause, it's horrible, as is the
apparently increasing acceptance of casual anti-Semitism among the
European intelligentsia.

Let's quote from your sources:

"The new European antsemitism is a new level of antsemitism and
constitutes discrimination against the Jews as a People. This modern
antsemitism conceals its true nature by claiming that it is purporting
legitimate criticism of Israel's actions in the occupied territories."


Glad this opening statement makes it clear, immediately, what this is
about.

Any criticism of what's going on in Israel will be labeled anti-
semitism.

That would mean, btw, Israel is people by anti-semites, but never mind
about that.

[pianomaven]

Post by herman

Post by Bob Harper

Post by pianomaven

Post by Dufus

http://www.tagesspiegel.de/kultur/rechtsruck-in-ungarn-europa-muss-en...
TD

Thanks.
Guess Hungary has its own brand of right-wing nuts , even worse than
our God Offal Party.

The problem is that they have obtained a majority through disgust with
the Socialists and are now altering the very foundations of Hungarian
society.
The EU should expel Hungary from the union.
TD

The current situation is, then, an (over)reaction driven by 'disgust
with the Socialists'. Whatever the cause, it's horrible, as is the
apparently increasing acceptance of casual anti-Semitism among the
European intelligentsia.

"The new European antsemitism is a new level of antsemitism and
constitutes discrimination against the Jews as a People. This modern
antsemitism conceals its true nature by claiming that it is purporting
legitimate criticism of Israel's actions in the occupied territories."
Glad this opening statement makes it clear, immediately, what this is
about.
Any criticism of what's going on in Israel will be labeled anti-
semitism.
That would mean, btw, Israel is people by anti-semites, but never mind
about that.

Well, yes, of course. Never mind about that.

The term anti-semitism has been thrown about with gay abandon here and
elsewhere. It is the very last, and desperate, resort of the debater
who has run out of arguments. Indeed, the word is now so debased by
overuse that it has little of the meaning it once had to designate
those who ostracized Jews in the USA from the dawn of the nation.

Today, of course, we see those same Jews participating in ostracism of
Muslims, with women who wear headscarves, etc.

It's all so childish, but entirely understandable and very human,
actually. They were still sterilizing young black women in their teens
in North Carolina in the early 1970s. And anyone who cares to visit
the South will find that racism is alive and well in "the land of the
free and the brave".

TD

[Gerard]

http://www.tagesspiegel.de/kultur/rechtsruck-in-ungarn-europa-muss-en...

Post by herman

Post by Bob Harper

Post by pianomaven

Post by Dufus

TD

Thanks.
Guess Hungary has its own brand of right-wing nuts , even worse
than our God Offal Party.

The problem is that they have obtained a majority through disgust
with the Socialists and are now altering the very foundations of
Hungarian society.
The EU should expel Hungary from the union.
TD

The current situation is, then, an (over)reaction driven by 'disgust
with the Socialists'. Whatever the cause, it's horrible, as is the
apparently increasing acceptance of casual anti-Semitism among the
European intelligentsia.

"The new European antsemitism is a new level of antsemitism and
constitutes discrimination against the Jews as a People. This modern
antsemitism conceals its true nature by claiming that it is purporting
legitimate criticism of Israel's actions in the occupied territories."
Glad this opening statement makes it clear, immediately, what this is
about.
Any criticism of what's going on in Israel will be labeled anti-
semitism.
That would mean, btw, Israel is people by anti-semites, but never mind
about that.

Right. Israel has made the label "anti-semitism" worthless.

[Roland van Gaalen]

On Monday, January 16, 2012 8:15:41 PM UTC+1, Bob Harper wrote:

[on Hungary]

Post by Bob Harper
The current situation is, then, an (over)reaction driven by 'disgust
with the Socialists'. Whatever the cause, it's horrible, as is the
apparently increasing acceptance of casual anti-Semitism among the
European intelligentsia. One would have thought after the last go-round
such attitudes would be forever beyond the pale, but it seems not. Not a
Right/Left problem so much as a human problem.

As an ordinary mortal, I know embarrassingly little about Hungary -- I have never been there and I don't know the Hungarian language.

According to wikipedia, the majority of Hungarian is Roman Catholic.

In that sense they are closer to you (a self-described conservative Roman Catholic) than to me.

I wonder if it makes any sense to speak of "the European intelligentsia" in this connection.

Europe is not a single nation, civilization or culture, in my opinion, and quite a few countries are culturally much closer to North America than to Hungary.
--
Roland van Gaalen
Amsterdam
r.p.vangaalenATchello.nl

[Bob Harper]

Post by Roland van Gaalen
[on Hungary]

Post by Bob Harper
The current situation is, then, an (over)reaction driven by 'disgust
with the Socialists'. Whatever the cause, it's horrible, as is the
apparently increasing acceptance of casual anti-Semitism among the
European intelligentsia. One would have thought after the last go-round
such attitudes would be forever beyond the pale, but it seems not. Not a
Right/Left problem so much as a human problem.

As an ordinary mortal, I know embarrassingly little about Hungary -- I have never been there and I don't know the Hungarian language.

I'm ahead of you, just, having been there once (in 2004), but being
equally innocent of the language :)

Post by Roland van Gaalen
According to wikipedia, the majority of Hungarian is Roman Catholic.

Technically true, but with overall church attendance at 21%, not
particularly relevant, IMO. I rather suspect that the percentage of
Catholics attending Mass is lower than the 21% figure, as more of
those identified as Catholic are only nominally so as compared to
Protestants and others.

(http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/rel_chu_att-religion-church-
attendance for numbers)

Post by Roland van Gaalen
In that sense they are closer to you (a self-described conservative Roman Catholic) than to me.

Not really.

Post by Roland van Gaalen
I wonder if it makes any sense to speak of "the European intelligentsia" in this connection.

The more I think about it, I should probably have not used the
adjective 'European'; 'intelligentsia' standing alone is probably
better.

Post by Roland van Gaalen
Europe is not a single nation, civilization or culture, in my opinion, and quite a few countries are culturally much closer to North America than to Hungary.

No doubt true, though religion, for better (as I think) or worse (as
you think) plays a somewhat larger role in the United States than it
does in Western Europe, and is even less significant in Eastern Europe
(i.e., those countries--with the exception of Poland--which were
formerly behind the Iron Curtain.)

Bob Harper

Post by Roland van Gaalen
--
Roland van Gaalen
Amsterdam
r.p.vangaalenATchello.nl

[Gerard]

Post by Bob Harper

Post by Roland van Gaalen
[on Hungary]

Post by Bob Harper
The current situation is, then, an (over)reaction driven by
'disgust with the Socialists'. Whatever the cause, it's horrible,
as is the apparently increasing acceptance of casual
anti-Semitism among the European intelligentsia. One would have
thought after the last go-round such attitudes would be forever
beyond the pale, but it seems not. Not a Right/Left problem so
much as a human problem.

As an ordinary mortal, I know embarrassingly little about Hungary
-- I have never been there and I don't know the Hungarian language.

I'm ahead of you, just, having been there once (in 2004), but being
equally innocent of the language :)

Post by Roland van Gaalen
According to wikipedia, the majority of Hungarian is Roman Catholic.

Technically true, but with overall church attendance at 21%, not
particularly relevant, IMO. I rather suspect that the percentage of
Catholics attending Mass is lower than the 21% figure, as more of
those identified as Catholic are only nominally so as compared to
Protestants and others.
(http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/rel_chu_att-religion-church-
attendance for numbers)

Post by Roland van Gaalen
In that sense they are closer to you (a self-described conservative
Roman Catholic) than to me.

Not really.

Post by Roland van Gaalen
I wonder if it makes any sense to speak of "the European
intelligentsia" in this connection.

The more I think about it, I should probably have not used the
adjective 'European'; 'intelligentsia' standing alone is probably
better.

Not probably.

[PedroPaquino]

Post by Dufus

http://www.tagesspiegel.de/kultur/rechtsruck-in-ungarn-europa-muss-en...
TD

Thanks.
Guess Hungary has its own brand of right-wing nuts , even worse than
our God Offal Party.

The problem is that they have obtained a majority through disgust with
the Socialists and are now altering the very foundations of Hungarian
society.

The EU should expel Hungary from the union.

TD

Your so-called facts here are upside down! Just becauee your whipped up the
above nonsense does not make it true.

Pedro

[EM]

Post by pianomaven
The EU should expel Hungary from the union.

Based on which article in the treaty?
Some action is being taken though:
<http://uk.reuters.com/article/2012/01/17/uk-hungary-eu-idUKTRE80G0MR20120117>

EM

[PedroPaquino]

http://www.tagesspiegel.de/kultur/rechtsruck-in-ungarn-europa-muss-en...
TD

Thanks.

Guess Hungary has its own brand of right-wing nuts , even worse than
our God Offal Party.

Dufu

In this case and according to post war Hungarian history, the country
suffers from left wing nuts.
Just trying to accurate here.

Pedro

[PedroPaquino]

This should be OT.

[pianomaven]

Post by PedroPaquino
This should be OT.

Anti-semitism and homophobia when directed at a MUSICIAN are not OT>

Get your priorities straight.

And if you have facts that dispute my precis of recent events in
Hungary, bring them forth.

Don't just stand on the sidelines and piss.

TD

[EM]

Post by PedroPaquino
This should be OT.

No, you silly person. It's an interview with a well-known classical
musician. And if you were able to read German, you would have read
that Adam Fischer has resigned from his post as muscial director of
the Hungarian State Opera and that conductor Christoph von Dohnanyi
cancelled a concert, both out of protest against the current goings-on
in Hungary.

EM

[g***@gmail.com]

Post by pianomaven
http://www.tagesspiegel.de/kultur/rechtsruck-in-ungarn-europa-muss-endlich-druck-machen/6065504.html
TD

https://books.google.com/books?id=8DXnDwAAQBAJ&pg=PT54&dq=%22think+of+liszt%22+%22and+so+he+made+his+piano+transcriptions%22&hl=en&newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjq7uiSstjrAhW1MX0KHSfVAzUQ6AEwAHoECAAQAg#v=onepage&q=%22think%20of%20liszt%22%20%22and%20so%20he%20made%20his%20piano%20transcriptions%22&f=false

[g***@gmail.com]

Post by pianomaven
http://www.tagesspiegel.de/kultur/rechtsruck-in-ungarn-europa-muss-endlich-druck-machen/6065504.html
TD

https://books.google.com/books?id=8DXnDwAAQBAJ&pg=PT135&dq=%22I+never+felt+at+home+in+Hungary%22+%22I+was+always+the+outsider,+and+at+the+same+time+one+had+to+keep+the+Jewish+side+secret.%22&hl=en&newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjrhOe5tNjrAhVLjqQKHSfuD8MQ6AEwAHoECAAQAg#v=onepage&q=%22I%20never%20felt%20at%20home%20in%20Hungary%22%20%22I%20was%20always%20the%20outsider%2C%20and%20at%20the%20same%20time%20one%20had%20to%20keep%20the%20Jewish%20side%20secret.%22&f=false