Discussion:
Gramophone: 5 Greatest Beethoven Symphonies Set
(too old to reply)
Ralph
2006-11-29 22:33:14 UTC
Permalink
Just in time for some seasonal good cheer, the December 2006 issue of
Gramophone has listed "The Five Greatest Beethoven Cycles" (Symphonies).
Perhaps a couple of their choices may cause some of you to rub your
eyes in disbelief, or perhaps a nod of agreement. (One of them, made my
top list.) Be that as it may, below are Gram's five greatest. I will
follow that by four sets, that I like. Keep in mind, that we are only
discussing complete sets, and not individual recordings of symphonies.

Gramophone's "Greatest Beethoven Cycles"

1. Norrington/Virgin
2. Zinman/Arte Nova
3. Toscanini/RCA
4. Karajan/DG 1975-1977
5. Gardiner/DG Archiv

I'm listing my four now

1. Bernstein/DG Vienna Phil
2. Karajan/DG 1963
3. Gardiner/DG Archiv
4. Klemperer/EMI (stereo)
frankwm
2006-11-29 22:39:07 UTC
Permalink
Willem Mengelberg - Amsterdam Concertgebouw.

Do not accept inferior substitutes for True greatness.
ansermetniac
2006-11-29 22:55:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by frankwm
Willem Mengelberg - Amsterdam Concertgebouw.
Do not accept inferior substitutes for True greatness.
Can you tell us why this set is True greatness?

Abbedd
frankwm
2006-11-29 22:59:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by ansermetniac
Can you tell us why this set is True greatness?
Well...
It's not conducted by Ernest Ansermet for a start !!
ansermetniac
2006-11-29 23:12:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by frankwm
Post by ansermetniac
Can you tell us why this set is True greatness?
Well...
It's not conducted by Ernest Ansermet for a start !!
I should have known that you could not tell us why. At best you may
have regurgitated the words of some critic of note.

I withdraw my request and echo a song made famous in the film "A Hard
Days' Night", "I Should Have Known Better"

Don't bother with the Ansemet LVB cycle. It has to do with the true
spirit of the Music. That would piss you off

Abbedd
frankwm
2006-11-29 23:23:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by ansermetniac
I should have known that you could not tell us why. At best you may
have regurgitated the words of some critic of note.
I withdraw my request and echo a song made famous in the film "A Hard
Days' Night", "I Should Have Known Better"
Bet the lyrics of AHDN didn't make you split your sides like my
one-liner!

You shouldn't have been cheeky - and get some decent 'speakers so you
can appreciate rather more Pianoforte Music than K***.

BTW - Have the Mengelberg set on Vinyl - a Rarity - and it was an
enthralling 'experience'.
Come to thing of it - have 'most' of the Best Beets on shellac - inc
Mengelberg - Weingartner (Acoustics/Electrical) et al.

But for sheer verve and excitement - Mengelberg is exceptional.
Post by ansermetniac
Don't bother with the Ansemet LVB cycle. It has to do with the true
spirit of the Music. That would piss you off
Too right, squire.

You know best!
ansermetniac
2006-11-29 23:25:35 UTC
Permalink
K***.
pardon my ignorance. What do you mean

Abbedd

Any man who afflicts the human race with ideas must be prepared to see them misunderstood.
- HL Mencken
ansermetniac
2006-11-29 23:26:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by frankwm
But for sheer verve and excitement - Mengelberg is exceptional.
And THAT is the only emotion in the syms of LVB????

Abbedd

Any man who afflicts the human race with ideas must be prepared to see them misunderstood.
- HL Mencken
frankwm
2006-11-29 23:29:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by ansermetniac
Post by frankwm
But for sheer verve and excitement - Mengelberg is exceptional.
And THAT is the only emotion in the syms of LVB????
No - but it keeps me awake!

"K666"
Richard Loeb
2006-11-29 22:45:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ralph
Just in time for some seasonal good cheer, the December 2006 issue of
Gramophone has listed "The Five Greatest Beethoven Cycles" (Symphonies).
Perhaps a couple of their choices may cause some of you to rub your eyes
in disbelief, or perhaps a nod of agreement. (One of them, made my top
list.) Be that as it may, below are Gram's five greatest. I will follow
that by four sets, that I like. Keep in mind, that we are only discussing
complete sets, and not individual recordings of symphonies.
Gramophone's "Greatest Beethoven Cycles"
1. Norrington/Virgin
2. Zinman/Arte Nova
3. Toscanini/RCA
4. Karajan/DG 1975-1977
5. Gardiner/DG Archiv
I'm listing my four now
1. Bernstein/DG Vienna Phil
2. Karajan/DG 1963
3. Gardiner/DG Archiv
4. Klemperer/EMI (stereo)
I certainly would take the Karajan 63 over the later ones. Richard
El Klauso
2006-11-29 23:05:56 UTC
Permalink
Wilhelm Furtwangler, Vienna Philharmonic, Stockholm Phil., Bayreuth
Festival Orch.
Willem Mengelberg, Concertgebouw Orchestra
Arturo Toscanini, NBC Symphony
Bruno Walter, New York Philharmonic, Philadelphia Orchestra
Felix Weingartner, Vienna Philharmonic
Richard Loeb
2006-11-29 23:15:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by El Klauso
Wilhelm Furtwangler, Vienna Philharmonic, Stockholm Phil., Bayreuth
Festival Orch.
Willem Mengelberg, Concertgebouw Orchestra
Arturo Toscanini, NBC Symphony
Bruno Walter, New York Philharmonic, Philadelphia Orchestra
Felix Weingartner, Vienna Philharmonic
Is the mono Walter available on CD Richard
ansermetniac
2006-11-29 23:16:41 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 29 Nov 2006 18:15:28 -0500, "Richard Loeb"
Post by Richard Loeb
Post by El Klauso
Wilhelm Furtwangler, Vienna Philharmonic, Stockholm Phil., Bayreuth
Festival Orch.
Willem Mengelberg, Concertgebouw Orchestra
Arturo Toscanini, NBC Symphony
Bruno Walter, New York Philharmonic, Philadelphia Orchestra
Felix Weingartner, Vienna Philharmonic
Is the mono Walter available on CD Richard
On Music and Arts. Remastered by John Wison

Abbedd
Richard Loeb
2006-11-29 23:25:50 UTC
Permalink
Worth having, you think???? Richard
Post by ansermetniac
On Wed, 29 Nov 2006 18:15:28 -0500, "Richard Loeb"
Post by Richard Loeb
Post by El Klauso
Wilhelm Furtwangler, Vienna Philharmonic, Stockholm Phil., Bayreuth
Festival Orch.
Willem Mengelberg, Concertgebouw Orchestra
Arturo Toscanini, NBC Symphony
Bruno Walter, New York Philharmonic, Philadelphia Orchestra
Felix Weingartner, Vienna Philharmonic
Is the mono Walter available on CD Richard
On Music and Arts. Remastered by John Wison
Abbedd
ansermetniac
2006-11-29 23:28:12 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 29 Nov 2006 18:25:50 -0500, "Richard Loeb"
Post by Richard Loeb
Worth having, you think???? Richard
I am not a big Walter fan. But they are probably better than his
stereo remakes.

Abbedd
Post by Richard Loeb
Post by ansermetniac
On Wed, 29 Nov 2006 18:15:28 -0500, "Richard Loeb"
Post by Richard Loeb
Post by El Klauso
Wilhelm Furtwangler, Vienna Philharmonic, Stockholm Phil., Bayreuth
Festival Orch.
Willem Mengelberg, Concertgebouw Orchestra
Arturo Toscanini, NBC Symphony
Bruno Walter, New York Philharmonic, Philadelphia Orchestra
Felix Weingartner, Vienna Philharmonic
Is the mono Walter available on CD Richard
On Music and Arts. Remastered by John Wison
Abbedd
Matthew B. Tepper
2006-11-30 01:15:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by ansermetniac
On Wed, 29 Nov 2006 18:15:28 -0500, "Richard Loeb"
Post by Richard Loeb
Post by El Klauso
Wilhelm Furtwangler, Vienna Philharmonic, Stockholm Phil., Bayreuth
Festival Orch.
Willem Mengelberg, Concertgebouw Orchestra
Arturo Toscanini, NBC Symphony
Bruno Walter, New York Philharmonic, Philadelphia Orchestra
Felix Weingartner, Vienna Philharmonic
Is the mono Walter available on CD Richard
On Music and Arts. Remastered by John Wilson
And Aaron Z. Snyder, making it two newsgroup former regulars who have
contributed to the art of historical recordings. (In addition to MO-T and
Seth Winner, who have appeared here on occasion.)
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page -- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/index.html
My main music page --- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
Harrington/Coy is a gay wrestler who won't come out of the closet
Curtis Croulet
2006-11-30 03:49:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by ansermetniac
On Music and Arts. Remastered by John Wison
Is he related to the esteemed John Wilson?
--
Curtis Croulet
Temecula, California
33°27'59"N, 117°05'53"W
Paul Goldstein
2006-11-30 04:08:54 UTC
Permalink
In article <***@adelphia.com>, Curtis Croulet
says...
Post by Curtis Croulet
Post by ansermetniac
On Music and Arts. Remastered by John Wison
Is he related to the esteemed John Wilson?
Very closely related indeed.
Matthew B. Tepper
2006-11-30 05:17:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul Goldstein
says...
Post by Curtis Croulet
Post by ansermetniac
On Music and Arts. Remastered by John Wison
Is he related to the esteemed John Wilson?
Very closely related indeed.
He bears what Prof. Peter Schickele (of P.D.Q. Bach infamy) would call "a
certain kind of relationship" to him. "And the name of that 'certain kind of
relationship' is -- identity."
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page -- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/index.html
My main music page --- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
Harrington/Coy is a gay wrestler who won't come out of the closet
Curtis Croulet
2006-11-30 05:28:25 UTC
Permalink
I probably should have added a smiley.
--
Curtis Croulet
Temecula, California
33°27'59"N, 117°05'53"W
Matthew B. Tepper
2006-11-30 01:15:23 UTC
Permalink
"El Klauso" <***@twcny.rr.com> appears to have caused the following
letters to be typed in news:1164841556.707276.98520
Post by El Klauso
Wilhelm Furtwangler, Vienna Philharmonic, Stockholm Phil., Bayreuth
Festival Orch.
Willem Mengelberg, Concertgebouw Orchestra
Arturo Toscanini, NBC Symphony
Bruno Walter, New York Philharmonic, Philadelphia Orchestra
Felix Weingartner, Vienna Philharmonic
A very good historical selection indeed.
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page -- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/index.html
My main music page --- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
Harrington/Coy is a gay wrestler who won't come out of the closet
makropulos
2006-11-29 23:01:41 UTC
Permalink
El Klauso
2006-11-29 23:09:49 UTC
Permalink
In re: Norrington -
Gramophone is a fine mag, but at certain times they have difficulty
rising above their Britishness. (Admirable in many ways, but in
Beethoven perhaps a tad misplaced...)
Richard Loeb
2006-11-29 23:14:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by El Klauso
In re: Norrington -
Gramophone is a fine mag, but at certain times they have difficulty
rising above their Britishness. (Admirable in many ways, but in
Beethoven perhaps a tad misplaced...)
No question Richard
O
2006-11-30 05:30:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by El Klauso
In re: Norrington -
Gramophone is a fine mag, but at certain times they have difficulty
rising above their Britishness. (Admirable in many ways, but in
Beethoven perhaps a tad misplaced...)
I was waiting for that Norrington shoe to drop. Had to get through 21
posts before it showed up.

-Owen
Royke
2006-11-30 07:10:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by El Klauso
In re: Norrington -
Gramophone is a fine mag, but at certain times they have difficulty
rising above their Britishness. (Admirable in many ways, but in
Beethoven perhaps a tad misplaced...)
True. I remember them preferring the ASMF's Gran Partita over the NBE ...

RJ
Matthew B. Tepper
2006-11-30 01:15:23 UTC
Permalink
"makropulos" <***@gmail.com> appears to have caused the following
letters to be typed in news:1164841301.608875.248550
The five "greatest"...well, it's a tough call I suppose, but the
Gramophone's list only has one that I'd want to put in that sort of
bracket (Toscanini - though I'd rather have the pre-war live cycle than
the RCA post-war set).
I agree, though I might slightly prefer the 1938 9th over the 1939.
Odd, also, to choose Karajan's 75/77 set when the 1960s one still seems
so much more intense, though I'm not sure even that would be on my "five
greatest" list.
Particularly odd since it was the "reference set" in stereo for many years.
I'd want - in no particular order - Mengelberg,
Between Wendel and Tahra, there are some magnificent performances, I agree.
Furtwängler (in various combinations of performances),
Yes, although I'll take 1937 BPO (complete, please, as it was on the
Japanese CD that I managed to find), over the two Heil-fests.
Jochum/DG (1950s), Szell/Cleveland and Bernstein/VPO
Bernstein/VPO is a favorite of mine among stereo cycles.
ahead of all of the other Gramophone suggestions. And of the HiP-
influenced cycles I'd take Mackerras over Zinman (good as Z. is). I
can't even begin to understand what Norrington is doing in this kind of
company.
EMI's check cleared.

I would also, of course, include Weingartner, a cycle consisting of his
latest recording of each work for which there are multiples -- with the
possible exception of the 5th, in which case I might prefer one of the
earlier ones.
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page -- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/index.html
My main music page --- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
Harrington/Coy is a gay wrestler who won't come out of the closet
p***@yahoo.com
2006-11-29 23:58:13 UTC
Permalink
I generally don't buy complete sets of the symphonies. I prefer to pick
and choose individual recordings.
My favorite Beethoven conductor is Furtwangler, by a fairly wide
margin. Scherchen was another great one. I'd also put Karajan up there
pretty high, but agree with those who prefer his earlier recordings to
the later ones.

Barry
Sacqueboutier
2006-11-30 01:37:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ralph
Just in time for some seasonal good cheer, the December 2006 issue of
Gramophone has listed "The Five Greatest Beethoven Cycles"
(Symphonies). Perhaps a couple of their choices may cause some of you
to rub your eyes in disbelief, or perhaps a nod of agreement. (One of
them, made my top list.) Be that as it may, below are Gram's five
greatest. I will follow that by four sets, that I like. Keep in mind,
that we are only discussing complete sets, and not individual
recordings of symphonies.
Gramophone's "Greatest Beethoven Cycles"
1. Norrington/Virgin
2. Zinman/Arte Nova
3. Toscanini/RCA
4. Karajan/DG 1975-1977
5. Gardiner/DG Archiv
Not the first time I've found one of Crapophone's lists
utterly worthless.

Roger Borington? They've got to be kidding.

Zinman perhaps, but among the five best of all time?

Toscanini, despite the sound, must be considered one
of the most influential of all, but oh, that sound.

Gardiner, I like. I find it the best HIP set I've heard.

If I had to choose, I would opt for Karajan's 63 cycle
overall...even though I think the 77-78 9th to be
this conductor's best recording of the piece. But I
still think the earlier cycle is better as a whole.

Bernstein? Jochum? Haitink? Cluytens? Ansermet?
Abbado? Klemperer? Wand? Harnoncourt? Szell?
Weingartner?

If they are choosing second rate HIP cycles, what about
Hogwood? Drahos?

Furtwangler? Furtwangler? Furtwangler?
--
I'd give my right arm to be ambidextrous.
William Sommerwerck
2006-11-30 02:03:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sacqueboutier
Zinman perhaps, but among the five best of all time?
Zinman is worth hearing, because he uses edited editions, some of which
deviate startlingly from what we're accustomed to, and the set is cheap.
Sacqueboutier
2006-11-30 10:47:01 UTC
Permalink
On 2006-11-29 21:03:13 -0500, "William Sommerwerck"
Post by William Sommerwerck
Post by Sacqueboutier
Zinman perhaps, but among the five best of all time?
Zinman is worth hearing, because he uses edited editions, some of which
deviate startlingly from what we're accustomed to, and the set is cheap.
I've read that he used the del Mar edition. Didn't Gardiner use
a different edition as well?
--
I'd give my right arm to be ambidextrous.
Eric Grunin
2006-11-30 17:02:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sacqueboutier
On 2006-11-29 21:03:13 -0500, "William Sommerwerck"
Post by William Sommerwerck
Post by Sacqueboutier
Zinman perhaps, but among the five best of all time?
Zinman is worth hearing, because he uses edited editions, some of which
deviate startlingly from what we're accustomed to, and the set is cheap.
I've read that he used the del Mar edition. Didn't Gardiner use
a different edition as well?
Not sure what was meant by "edited editions" -- are there any other
kind? -- but Zinman definitely takes some liberties with the text.

Regards,
Eric Grunin
www.grunin.com/eroica
Matthew B. Tepper
2006-11-30 05:17:23 UTC
Permalink
If they are choosing second rate HIP cycles, what about Hogwood? Drahos?
Their checks bounced.
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page -- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/index.html
My main music page --- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
Harrington/Coy is a gay wrestler who won't come out of the closet
Kimba W. Lion
2006-11-30 14:07:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sacqueboutier
Roger Borington? They've got to be kidding.
My sentiments exactly. But they're not.
Post by Sacqueboutier
Furtwangler? Furtwangler? Furtwangler?
Definitely. But so many to choose from. My set spans 1952-1954.

Krips/Everest, anyone?
Sacqueboutier
2006-11-30 16:35:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kimba W. Lion
Post by Sacqueboutier
Roger Borington? They've got to be kidding.
My sentiments exactly. But they're not.
If they had to pick a HIP set, Gardiner is much more
compelling than Borington.
Post by Kimba W. Lion
Post by Sacqueboutier
Furtwangler? Furtwangler? Furtwangler?
Definitely. But so many to choose from. My set spans 1952-1954.
Krips/Everest, anyone?
Nah. Sound is awful and there is nothing in the
interpretation that is gripping enough to overcome
the sound. Fine, central performances can be had
in many other sets with better sound.
--
I'd give my right arm to be ambidextrous.
j***@sympatico.ca
2006-11-30 16:43:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sacqueboutier
Post by Kimba W. Lion
Post by Sacqueboutier
Roger Borington? They've got to be kidding.
My sentiments exactly. But they're not.
If they had to pick a HIP set, Gardiner is much more
compelling than Borington.
Post by Kimba W. Lion
Post by Sacqueboutier
Furtwangler? Furtwangler? Furtwangler?
Definitely. But so many to choose from. My set spans 1952-1954.
Krips/Everest, anyone?
Nah. Sound is awful and there is nothing in the
interpretation that is gripping enough to overcome
the sound. Fine, central performances can be had
in many other sets with better sound.
--
I'd give my right arm to be ambidextrous.
Krips? Underrated. A musician's conductor. I love his 6th.

JG
Richard Loeb
2006-11-30 17:47:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by j***@sympatico.ca
Post by Sacqueboutier
Post by Kimba W. Lion
Post by Sacqueboutier
Roger Borington? They've got to be kidding.
My sentiments exactly. But they're not.
If they had to pick a HIP set, Gardiner is much more
compelling than Borington.
Post by Kimba W. Lion
Post by Sacqueboutier
Furtwangler? Furtwangler? Furtwangler?
Definitely. But so many to choose from. My set spans 1952-1954.
Krips/Everest, anyone?
Nah. Sound is awful and there is nothing in the
interpretation that is gripping enough to overcome
the sound. Fine, central performances can be had
in many other sets with better sound.
--
I'd give my right arm to be ambidextrous.
Krips? Underrated. A musician's conductor. I love his 6th.
JG
The sound is wonderful on the Everest remasterings Richard
Kimba W. Lion
2006-11-30 17:04:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sacqueboutier
Post by Kimba W. Lion
Krips/Everest, anyone?
Nah. Sound is awful
Maybe on the twilight-days Everest LPs, and definitely on the Bescol CDs,
but not on the Everest CDs.
William Sommerwerck
2006-11-30 02:00:02 UTC
Permalink
Good grief.

Harnoncourt, thank you.

Karajan 63 is fine is you want a middle-of-the-road view of things.
Royke
2006-11-30 03:56:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by William Sommerwerck
Good grief.
Harnoncourt, thank you.
Wholeheartedly seconded. It would not surprise me of over time the latest
Haitink set will rise in many people's ranking too.
William Sommerwerck
2006-11-30 11:42:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Royke
Post by William Sommerwerck
Harnoncourt, thank you.
Wholeheartedly seconded. It would not surprise me of over time the latest
Haitink set will rise in many people's ranking too.
It might very well. But you should see the comparative Haitink/Vanska review
in the latest Fanfare. Not nice.
n***@thump.org
2006-11-30 07:00:33 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 29 Nov 2006 18:00:02 -0800, "William Sommerwerck"
Post by William Sommerwerck
Harnoncourt, thank you.
Well this is my favourite set to date.

I couldn't imagine life without Klemperer's EMI set particularly if we
were to discard the remakes of 3,5 & 7.
j***@aol.com
2006-11-30 07:14:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by n***@thump.org
On Wed, 29 Nov 2006 18:00:02 -0800, "William Sommerwerck"
Post by William Sommerwerck
Harnoncourt, thank you.
Well this is my favourite set to date.
I couldn't imagine life without Klemperer's EMI set particularly if we
were to discard the remakes of 3,5 & 7.
I can't seem to imagine choosing just one, let alone 5 sets.

--Jeff
AMH
2006-11-30 14:18:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by n***@thump.org
On Wed, 29 Nov 2006 18:00:02 -0800, "William Sommerwerck"
Post by William Sommerwerck
Harnoncourt, thank you.
Well this is my favourite set to date.
I couldn't imagine life without Klemperer's EMI set particularly if we
were to discard the remakes of 3,5 & 7.
I have the EMI GROC releases of Klemperer's 3, 5, 6, & 7. Are these
different than then ones included in the blue EMI box set with the
piano concertos? I like the ones I have, and have been considering
getting the set.
Gerard
2006-11-30 16:25:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by AMH
Post by n***@thump.org
On Wed, 29 Nov 2006 18:00:02 -0800, "William Sommerwerck"
Post by William Sommerwerck
Harnoncourt, thank you.
Well this is my favourite set to date.
I couldn't imagine life without Klemperer's EMI set particularly if
we were to discard the remakes of 3,5 & 7.
I have the EMI GROC releases of Klemperer's 3, 5, 6, & 7. Are these
different than then ones included in the blue EMI box set with the
piano concertos? I like the ones I have, and have been considering
getting the set.
No's 3 (the GROC is mono) and 5 (GROC 1955 / box 1959) are different recordings.
No.6 I don't know (both are from 1957).
Curtis Croulet
2006-11-30 16:53:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gerard
No's 3 (the GROC is mono) and 5 (GROC 1955 / box 1959) are different recordings.
No.6 I don't know (both are from 1957).
The 1957 recordings are all stereo.
--
Curtis Croulet
Temecula, California
33°27'59"N, 117°05'53"W
Richard Loeb
2006-11-30 17:48:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gerard
Post by AMH
Post by n***@thump.org
On Wed, 29 Nov 2006 18:00:02 -0800, "William Sommerwerck"
Post by William Sommerwerck
Harnoncourt, thank you.
Well this is my favourite set to date.
I couldn't imagine life without Klemperer's EMI set particularly if
we were to discard the remakes of 3,5 & 7.
I have the EMI GROC releases of Klemperer's 3, 5, 6, & 7. Are these
different than then ones included in the blue EMI box set with the
piano concertos? I like the ones I have, and have been considering
getting the set.
No's 3 (the GROC is mono) and 5 (GROC 1955 / box 1959) are different recordings.
No.6 I don't know (both are from 1957).
The 3 and 5 are better than the stereo remakes Richard
MELMOTH
2006-11-30 09:36:26 UTC
Permalink
Ce cher mammifère du nom de William Sommerwerck nous susurrait, le
jeudi 30/11/2006, dans nos oreilles grandes ouvertes mais un peu sales
quand même, et dans le message
Post by William Sommerwerck
Harnoncourt, thank you
*Mmmmmmoooouuuuaaaarrrrffff !!!*....
--
Car avec beaucoup de science, il y a beaucoup de chagrin; et celui qui
accroît sa science, accroît sa douleur.
[Ecclésiaste, 1-18]
Melmoth - souffrant
Sacqueboutier
2006-11-30 10:48:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by MELMOTH
Ce cher mammifère du nom de William Sommerwerck nous susurrait, le
jeudi 30/11/2006, dans nos oreilles grandes ouvertes mais un peu sales
quand même, et dans le message
Post by William Sommerwerck
Harnoncourt, thank you
*Mmmmmmoooouuuuaaaarrrrffff !!!*....
I've never heard of him. What label is it on?
Odd spelling. Must be east European.
--
I'd give my right arm to be ambidextrous.
William Sommerwerck
2006-11-30 11:47:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by MELMOTH
Post by William Sommerwerck
Harnoncourt, thank you
*Mmmmmmoooouuuuaaaarrrrffff !!!*....
I assume that translates as "Yuck!"
Matthew B. Tepper
2006-11-30 15:23:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by William Sommerwerck
Post by MELMOTH
Post by William Sommerwerck
Harnoncourt, thank you
*Mmmmmmoooouuuuaaaarrrrffff !!!*....
I assume that translates as "Yuck!"
I think it's the sort of thing that Australians would categorize as
"Technicolor yawn."
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page -- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/index.html
My main music page --- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
Harrington/Coy is a gay wrestler who won't come out of the closet
Royke
2006-11-30 16:23:21 UTC
Permalink
Ce cher mammifère du nom de William Sommerwerck nous susurrait, le jeudi
30/11/2006, dans nos oreilles grandes ouvertes mais un peu sales quand
Post by William Sommerwerck
Harnoncourt, thank you
*Mmmmmmoooouuuuaaaarrrrffff !!!*....
Sounds like you have never been to Harnoncourt's Beethoven 6th, part I,
5m50s in ...

RJ
William Sommerwerck
2006-11-30 02:01:37 UTC
Permalink
Broadly speaking, it would be preferable to say "least bad", as most
performances of Beethoven symphonies stink to high heaven.
d***@aol.com
2006-11-30 06:00:57 UTC
Permalink
The incomplete set with Erich Kleiber on Decca. (Did they include both
studio Eroica's? I hope they did.)

-david gable
k***@yahoo.co.uk
2006-11-30 07:36:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by d***@aol.com
The incomplete set with Erich Kleiber on Decca. (Did they include both
studio Eroica's? I hope they did.)
-david gable
What, no mention of the superb Rene Leibowitz / Royal Philharmonic set
on beautifully recorded Reader's Digest stereo LPs (producer Charles
Gerhardt, engineer Kenneth Wilkinson) ?
William Sommerwerck
2006-11-30 11:44:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by k***@yahoo.co.uk
What, no mention of the superb Rene Leibowitz / Royal Philharmonic set
on beautifully recorded Reader's Digest stereo LPs (producer Charles
Gerhardt, engineer Kenneth Wilkinson) ?
This set has its failings, but it's worth hearing because Leibowitz was the
first "modern" conductor to take a close look at the scores and try to play
them as they were written. (That's what he said, at least.)

Again, another set very much worth hearing.
ansermetniac
2006-11-30 12:26:10 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 30 Nov 2006 03:44:08 -0800, "William Sommerwerck"
Post by William Sommerwerck
This set has its failings, but it's worth hearing because Leibowitz was the
first "modern" conductor to take a close look at the scores and try to play
them as they were written. (That's what he said, at least.)
I guess he never heard of Toscanini and Ansermet

Abbedd

Any man who afflicts the human race with ideas must be prepared to see them misunderstood.
- HL Mencken
Eric Grunin
2006-11-30 17:10:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by ansermetniac
On Thu, 30 Nov 2006 03:44:08 -0800, "William Sommerwerck"
Post by William Sommerwerck
This set has its failings, but it's worth hearing because Leibowitz was the
first "modern" conductor to take a close look at the scores and try to play
them as they were written. (That's what he said, at least.)
I guess he never heard of Toscanini and Ansermet
I guess you've never listened to Leibowitz. Whether or not you like his
interpretation (he's not one of my favorites), you'd at least know what
he was talking about.

Regards,
Eric Grunin
www.grunin.com/eroica
ansermetniac
2006-11-30 17:28:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Eric Grunin
Post by ansermetniac
On Thu, 30 Nov 2006 03:44:08 -0800, "William Sommerwerck"
Post by William Sommerwerck
This set has its failings, but it's worth hearing because Leibowitz was the
first "modern" conductor to take a close look at the scores and try to play
them as they were written. (That's what he said, at least.)
I guess he never heard of Toscanini and Ansermet
I guess you've never listened to Leibowitz. Whether or not you like his
interpretation (he's not one of my favorites), you'd at least know what
he was talking about.
Regards,
Eric Grunin
www.grunin.com/eroica
Are you saying that Toscanini and Ansermet did not try to play them as
written, as opposed to Frutwangler who recomposed as he went along

Abbedd
Gerard
2006-11-30 18:33:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by ansermetniac
Post by Eric Grunin
Post by ansermetniac
On Thu, 30 Nov 2006 03:44:08 -0800, "William Sommerwerck"
Post by William Sommerwerck
This set has its failings, but it's worth hearing because
Leibowitz was the first "modern" conductor to take a close look
at the scores and try to play them as they were written.
(That's what he said, at least.)
I guess he never heard of Toscanini and Ansermet
I guess you've never listened to Leibowitz. Whether or not you like
his interpretation (he's not one of my favorites), you'd at least
know what he was talking about.
Regards,
Eric Grunin
www.grunin.com/eroica
Are you saying that Toscanini and Ansermet did not try to play them as
written, as opposed to Frutwangler who recomposed as he went along
If you had some brains you could have noticed yourself that nobody is saying so,
and that nobody mentioned Frutwangler.
BTW have you ever heard that there have been many other conductors than the 2 or
3 you know? Some of them are still conducting.
ansermetniac
2006-11-30 18:37:59 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 30 Nov 2006 19:33:03 +0100, "Gerard"
Post by Gerard
Post by ansermetniac
Post by Eric Grunin
Post by ansermetniac
On Thu, 30 Nov 2006 03:44:08 -0800, "William Sommerwerck"
Post by William Sommerwerck
This set has its failings, but it's worth hearing because
Leibowitz was the first "modern" conductor to take a close look
at the scores and try to play them as they were written.
(That's what he said, at least.)
I guess he never heard of Toscanini and Ansermet
I guess you've never listened to Leibowitz. Whether or not you like
his interpretation (he's not one of my favorites), you'd at least
know what he was talking about.
Regards,
Eric Grunin
www.grunin.com/eroica
Are you saying that Toscanini and Ansermet did not try to play them as
written, as opposed to Frutwangler who recomposed as he went along
If you had some brains you could have noticed yourself that nobody is saying so,
and that nobody mentioned Frutwangler.
BTW have you ever heard that there have been many other conductors than the 2 or
3 you know? Some of them are still conducting.
That seems to bother you. Why?????

Abbedd

Any man who afflicts the human race with ideas must be prepared to see them misunderstood.
- HL Mencken
Eric Grunin
2006-11-30 20:24:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by ansermetniac
Post by Eric Grunin
Post by ansermetniac
On Thu, 30 Nov 2006 03:44:08 -0800, "William Sommerwerck"
Post by William Sommerwerck
This set has its failings, but it's worth hearing because Leibowitz was the
first "modern" conductor to take a close look at the scores and try to play
them as they were written. (That's what he said, at least.)
I guess he never heard of Toscanini and Ansermet
I guess you've never listened to Leibowitz. Whether or not you like his
interpretation (he's not one of my favorites), you'd at least know what
he was talking about.
Regards,
Eric Grunin
www.grunin.com/eroica
Are you saying that Toscanini and Ansermet did not try to play them as
written
Of course not. I'm saying that if you listen to Leibowitz's records
you'll understand why he spoke as he did, even if (as is likely) he was
familiar with the conductors you cite.

Regards,
Eric Grunin
www.grunin.com/eroica
Sacqueboutier
2006-11-30 20:41:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Eric Grunin
Post by ansermetniac
On Thu, 30 Nov 2006 03:44:08 -0800, "William Sommerwerck"
Post by William Sommerwerck
This set has its failings, but it's worth hearing because Leibowitz was the
first "modern" conductor to take a close look at the scores and try to play
them as they were written. (That's what he said, at least.)
I guess he never heard of Toscanini and Ansermet
I guess you've never listened to Leibowitz. Whether or not you like his
interpretation (he's not one of my favorites), you'd at least know what
he was talking about.
Regards,
Eric Grunin
www.grunin.com/eroica
I have the Liebowitz on CD and LP. He's no more faithful to
the score than the other two. Yes, he does avoid the
tempo tinkerings and rubato of many who came before
him, but so did Toscanini and Ansermet.
--
I'd give my right arm to be ambidextrous.
Matthew B. Tepper
2006-11-30 07:54:55 UTC
Permalink
"***@aol.com" <***@aol.com> appears to have caused the
following letters to be typed in news:1164866457.341245.104480
Post by d***@aol.com
The incomplete set with Erich Kleiber on Decca. (Did they include both
studio Eroica's? I hope they did.)
I believe they did.
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page -- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/index.html
My main music page --- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
Harrington/Coy is a gay wrestler who won't come out of the closet
MELMOTH
2006-11-30 09:32:43 UTC
Permalink
Ce cher mammifère du nom de Ralph nous susurrait, le mercredi
29/11/2006, dans nos oreilles grandes ouvertes mais un peu sales quand
même, et dans le message
Post by Ralph
I'm listing my four now
1. Bernstein/DG Vienna Phil
2. Karajan/DG 1963
3. Gardiner/DG Archiv
4. Klemperer/EMI (stereo)
1 - Monteux
2 - Szell
3 - Scherchen
4 - Klemperer
5 - Zinmann
6 - Norrington
7 - Walter
8 - Cluytens
9 - Furtwängler
10 - Toscanini 1939
--
Car avec beaucoup de science, il y a beaucoup de chagrin; et celui qui
accroît sa science, accroît sa douleur.
[Ecclésiaste, 1-18]
Melmoth - souffrant
Dan Fowler
2006-11-30 13:42:03 UTC
Permalink
Like other posters, I was somewhat surprised that the late 70s Karajan cycle
was picked over the 63 Karajan cycle. The 63 cycle served as my introduction
to the music and stood as a sentimental favorite for a long time. I don't
listen to it very often now, though I did purchase and enjoy Karajan's cycle
from the 1950s. Similarly, Hogwood's set served as my introduction to the
HIP view of Beethoven, leaving me entranced at times with the clarity of
recording and sound of the orchestra ( particularly in 1-2, 4, and 6).

However, if forced to pick 5 sets now (and leaving out Furtwangler, one of
my favorite conductors in this music because I don't have a complete set but
only 3 through 9), I would pick

Bernstein/NYP (haven't heard all he later cycle)
Gardiner
Mackerras
Szell
Tennstedt/Memories (gotta love those birds chirping in 6 and 8)
Toscanini/NBC (1950s - haven't heard all the pre-war cycle yet)

One last comment, I just got the Barenboim cycle, and it's making a very
favorable first impression.

There are too many outstanding cycles to just pick 5!

Dan
Ce cher mammifère du nom de Ralph nous susurrait, le mercredi 29/11/2006,
dans nos oreilles grandes ouvertes mais un peu sales quand même, et dans
Post by Ralph
I'm listing my four now
1. Bernstein/DG Vienna Phil
2. Karajan/DG 1963
3. Gardiner/DG Archiv
4. Klemperer/EMI (stereo)
1 - Monteux
2 - Szell
3 - Scherchen
4 - Klemperer
5 - Zinmann
6 - Norrington
7 - Walter
8 - Cluytens
9 - Furtwängler
10 - Toscanini 1939
--
Car avec beaucoup de science, il y a beaucoup de chagrin; et celui qui
accroît sa science, accroît sa douleur.
[Ecclésiaste, 1-18]
Melmoth - souffrant
Rich S.
2006-11-30 13:22:31 UTC
Permalink
In recent years the set I return to most requently is the one by
Harnoncourt.

-Rich
MELMOTH
2006-11-30 13:41:55 UTC
Permalink
Ce cher mammifère du nom de Rich S. nous susurrait, le jeudi
30/11/2006, dans nos oreilles grandes ouvertes mais un peu sales quand
Post by Rich S.
In recent years the set I return to most requently is the one by
Harnoncourt.
*Mmmmooouuuaaarrrfff* !!!...
--
Car avec beaucoup de science, il y a beaucoup de chagrin; et celui qui
accroît sa science, accroît sa douleur.
[Ecclésiaste, 1-18]
Melmoth - souffrant
Royke
2006-11-30 16:26:46 UTC
Permalink
Ce cher mammifère du nom de Rich S. nous susurrait, le jeudi 30/11/2006,
dans nos oreilles grandes ouvertes mais un peu sales quand même, et dans
Post by Rich S.
In recent years the set I return to most requently is the one by
Harnoncourt.
*Mmmmooouuuaaarrrfff* !!!...
--
Car avec beaucoup de science, il y a beaucoup de chagrin; et celui qui
accroît sa science, accroît sa douleur.
[Ecclésiaste, 1-18]
Melmoth - souffrant
Some respect for other people's view are not one of your stronger character
traits? At about the same level as your eloquence?
Floor
2006-11-30 13:48:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rich S.
In recent years the set I return to most requently is the one by
Harnoncourt.
-Rich
So do I.
F
w***@comcast.net
2006-11-30 14:10:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ralph
Gramophone's "Greatest Beethoven Cycles"
1. Norrington/Virgin
2. Zinman/Arte Nova
3. Toscanini/RCA
4. Karajan/DG 1975-1977
5. Gardiner/DG Archiv
The Gramophone editors must need to catch a train.

Bill
Matthew B. Tepper
2006-11-30 15:23:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by w***@comcast.net
Post by Ralph
Gramophone's "Greatest Beethoven Cycles"
1. Norrington/Virgin
2. Zinman/Arte Nova
3. Toscanini/RCA
4. Karajan/DG 1975-1977
5. Gardiner/DG Archiv
The Gramophone editors must need to catch a train.
No; cash a check.
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page -- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/index.html
My main music page --- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
Harrington/Coy is a gay wrestler who won't come out of the closet
Eric Grunin
2006-11-30 17:16:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by w***@comcast.net
Post by Ralph
Gramophone's "Greatest Beethoven Cycles"
1. Norrington/Virgin
2. Zinman/Arte Nova
3. Toscanini/RCA
4. Karajan/DG 1975-1977
5. Gardiner/DG Archiv
The Gramophone editors must need to catch a train.
Good point. I haven't heard these cycles complete, except for the
Toscanini; but just looking at the Eroica, these are five of the
fastest versions ever.

Regards,
Eric Grunin
www.grunin.com/eroica
ansermetniac
2006-11-30 17:34:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Eric Grunin
Post by w***@comcast.net
Post by Ralph
Gramophone's "Greatest Beethoven Cycles"
1. Norrington/Virgin
2. Zinman/Arte Nova
3. Toscanini/RCA
4. Karajan/DG 1975-1977
5. Gardiner/DG Archiv
The Gramophone editors must need to catch a train.
Good point. I haven't heard these cycles complete, except for the
Toscanini; but just looking at the Eroica, these are five of the
fastest versions ever.
Regards,
Eric Grunin
www.grunin.com/eroica
I assure you and everybody else that you have never heard the AT
cycle. RCA and BMG have never released it. What they released is a
psuedo Toscanini cycle that due to their equalization, have undone all
that AT worked so hard to achieve. If you would like, I can send you
a DVD-ROM of the cycle that has all the attacks and decays that AT
worked so hard to get, the blend of the instuments etc that makes this
the greatest cycle ever done. It also comes with an essay that
explains why this , and not the 1939 cycle is the greatest AT cycle of
the LVB Symphonies

Abbedd

Any man who afflicts the human race with ideas must be prepared to see them misunderstood.
- HL Mencken
frankwm
2006-11-30 17:48:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by ansermetniac
I assure you and everybody else that you have never heard the AT
cycle. RCA and BMG have never released it. What they released is a
psuedo Toscanini cycle that due to their equalization, have undone all
that AT worked so hard to achieve. If you would like, I can send you
a DVD-ROM of the cycle that has all the attacks and decays that AT
worked so hard to get, the blend of the instuments etc that makes this
the greatest cycle ever done. It also comes with an essay that
explains why this , and not the 1939 cycle is the greatest AT cycle of
the LVB Symphonies
*I'd* almost take you up on that 'offer' !
Are you referring to ALL commercial releases of these c.1950
performances?
I must say that I've hear quite distinct 'sonics' between transfer
vintages - RCA's - and UK Decca cuts.
Also - hopefully these weren't transcribed using your '8-gram playing
weight' method?!

Full marks for enthusiasm though...
ansermetniac
2006-11-30 18:00:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by frankwm
Post by ansermetniac
I assure you and everybody else that you have never heard the AT
cycle. RCA and BMG have never released it. What they released is a
psuedo Toscanini cycle that due to their equalization, have undone all
that AT worked so hard to achieve. If you would like, I can send you
a DVD-ROM of the cycle that has all the attacks and decays that AT
worked so hard to get, the blend of the instuments etc that makes this
the greatest cycle ever done. It also comes with an essay that
explains why this , and not the 1939 cycle is the greatest AT cycle of
the LVB Symphonies
*I'd* almost take you up on that 'offer' !
Are you referring to ALL commercial releases of these c.1950
performances?
I must say that I've hear quite distinct 'sonics' between transfer
vintages - RCA's - and UK Decca cuts.
Also - hopefully these weren't transcribed using your '8-gram playing
weight' method?!
Full marks for enthusiasm though...
They were transfered from the gold seal cassetes with a Nak Cr7a


To get one good transfer of an lp one must track as heavy as you can.

Abbedd

Any man who afflicts the human race with ideas must be prepared to see them misunderstood.
- HL Mencken
frankwm
2006-11-30 18:09:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by ansermetniac
They were transfered from the gold seal cassetes with a Nak Cr7a
Well the tape decks rather decent (no doubt azimuth is correct).
I only have one 'Gold Seal' issue - 'AT Collection' from 1990 -GK 60254
(Sym.4/6 - German tape...where I noticed slight azimuth changes between
sides..)
Presumably you are dubbing with a non-dolby playback to obtain 'attack'
??
That doesn't mean though that your 'sound' is 'better' - or has removed
incorrect eq somewhere else.
Pretty haphazard, in fact!
Post by ansermetniac
To get one good transfer of an lp one must track as heavy as you can.
I'll pass on that !!
ansermetniac
2006-11-30 18:14:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by frankwm
Well the tape decks rather decent
Mr. Knowitall (with apologies to Bullwinkle J. Moose), the CR7a beat
the cassette deck on the test bench of the review team of Audio
magazine. It is the best cassette deck, pro or consume,r ever made.

What gives you the right o be such a pompous putz. I would love to see
you C.V or resume

Abbedd
Usenet Nerwsgroup N.
A Microcosm of everyday life where you will find
1) Self proclaimed experts, who are not
2) Insecure people,who when disagreed with,trash your character
3) Anti-Semitism
Abbeddrose Bierce
frankwm
2006-11-30 18:17:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by ansermetniac
Mr. Knowitall (with apologies to Bullwinkle J. Moose), the CR7a beat
the cassette deck on the test bench of the review team of Audio
magazine. It is the best cassette deck, pro or consume,r ever made.
What gives you the right o be such a pompous putz. I would love to see
you C.V or resume
Shame that I No More than U !!

Keep your (Tape) Head clean

;~))
Gerard
2006-11-30 18:42:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by ansermetniac
Post by frankwm
Well the tape decks rather decent
Mr. Knowitall (with apologies to Bullwinkle J. Moose), the CR7a beat
the cassette deck on the test bench of the review team of Audio
magazine. It is the best cassette deck, pro or consume,r ever made.
You are completely correct. Only you knowitall.
Post by ansermetniac
What gives you the right o be such a pompous putz. I would love to see
you C.V or resume
You are completely correct. Only you have the right to be such a pompous putz.
Post by ansermetniac
Abbedd
Usenet Nerwsgroup N.
A Microcosm of everyday life where you will find
1) Self proclaimed experts, who are not
2) Insecure people,who when disagreed with,trash your character
3) Anti-Semitism
Abbeddrose Bierce
Kimba W. Lion
2006-11-30 18:19:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by ansermetniac
They were transfered from the gold seal cassetes with a Nak Cr7a
I remember reading an article (I can't remember which hi-fi enthusiast mag
it was in, but it was around the start of the CD era) in which the author
contended that a commercially-produced cassette was the closest a consumer
could get to master-tape-quality sound. I've never heard anything to
support that contention; I would rank cassettes as better-than-8-tracks --
which falls into the category of faint praise. But I admit I've never
experienced playback via a Nakamichi deck.
Post by ansermetniac
To get one good transfer of an lp one must track as heavy as you can.
I can't for the life of me guess at the rationale behind that statement.
frankwm
2006-11-30 18:23:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by ansermetniac
ansermetniac
Post by ansermetniac
To get one good transfer of an lp one must track as heavy as you can.
I can't for the life of me guess at the rationale behind that statement.
He likes to play both sides of an album @ the same time !!
ansermetniac
2006-11-30 18:27:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kimba W. Lion
Post by ansermetniac
They were transfered from the gold seal cassetes with a Nak Cr7a
I remember reading an article (I can't remember which hi-fi enthusiast mag
it was in, but it was around the start of the CD era) in which the author
contended that a commercially-produced cassette was the closest a consumer
could get to master-tape-quality sound. I've never heard anything to
support that contention; I would rank cassettes as better-than-8-tracks --
which falls into the category of faint praise. But I admit I've never
experienced playback via a Nakamichi deck.
Post by ansermetniac
To get one good transfer of an lp one must track as heavy as you can.
I can't for the life of me guess at the rationale behind that statement.
1) You track below the damage made from previous passes
2) You eliminate motorboating
3) Most skips are elminated on extremely damaged records.

the only reason that turntables and cartridges were made to track at 2
grams or lower, especially under 1 gram, was to make records last
longer. When you want only one good transfer that is moot.

I have had great sucess using a

Thorens 126 MK III Electronic
Dynavector 505 Arm
Shure m3d for stereo records
Fairchild 225 cartridge for mono records
There is no lp, in any condition, with any warp(except tacos), that I
can't track

And my sucess proves my statement. Compare my transfer of a skated on
LP of the Schumann Koncerstuck on Monitor with the commercially
available pirated edition avaliable on the web.

The lp I used should have been used for a frisbee only.Listen to the
results with the Fairchild

http://www.abbeddguardalamei.com/abbeddsplace/schumannkon01Track01.mp3
http://www.abbeddguardalamei.com/abbeddsplace/schumannkon02Track02.mp3

Abbedd


Any man who afflicts the human race with ideas must be prepared to see them misunderstood.
- HL Mencken
Gerard
2006-11-30 18:46:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by ansermetniac
And my sucess proves my statement.
I have heard your success.
It's crap.
ansermetniac
2006-11-30 18:56:34 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 30 Nov 2006 19:46:42 +0100, "Gerard"
Post by Gerard
Post by ansermetniac
And my sucess proves my statement.
I have heard your success.
It's crap.
Thank you. Now I am sure of my sucessess

Abbedd
Usenet Nerwsgroup N.
A Microcosm of everyday life where you will find
1) Self proclaimed experts, who are not
2) Insecure people,who when disagreed with,trash your character
3) Anti-Semitism
Abbeddrose Bierce
Gerard
2006-11-30 18:58:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by ansermetniac
On Thu, 30 Nov 2006 19:46:42 +0100, "Gerard"
Post by Gerard
Post by ansermetniac
And my sucess proves my statement.
I have heard your success.
It's crap.
Thank you. Now I am sure of my sucessess
It was known already that producing crap is what you're good at.
Kimba W. Lion
2006-11-30 20:20:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by ansermetniac
1) You track below the damage made from previous passes
You can't do that by increasing tracking force unless you intend to cut
into the vinyl.
Post by ansermetniac
2) You eliminate motorboating
I don't know what you mean.
Post by ansermetniac
3) Most skips are elminated on extremely damaged records.
While I have been known to use a non-critical record player to cut through
blocked grooves, I wouldn't want to do that during the course of a
transfer.
Post by ansermetniac
the only reason that turntables and cartridges were made to track at 2
grams or lower, especially under 1 gram, was to make records last
longer. When you want only one good transfer that is moot.
Sounds like you don't mind cutting into the vinyl.
Post by ansermetniac
Shure m3d for stereo records
That's got to be a minimum of 30 years old, and with a spherical stylus I
wouldn't think it would get the most out of a record. But at a 6 gram max
rated force, I guess it might do very well on most warps. What about
warp wow, though?
Post by ansermetniac
http://www.abbeddguardalamei.com/abbeddsplace/schumannkon01Track01.mp3
http://www.abbeddguardalamei.com/abbeddsplace/schumannkon02Track02.mp3
Congratulations on tracking a problem record. But you processed it to
death. It almost sounds like a cylinder recording.
ansermetniac
2006-11-30 20:27:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kimba W. Lion
Post by ansermetniac
1) You track below the damage made from previous passes
You can't do that by increasing tracking force unless you intend to cut
into the vinyl.
Post by ansermetniac
2) You eliminate motorboating
I don't know what you mean.
Post by ansermetniac
3) Most skips are elminated on extremely damaged records.
While I have been known to use a non-critical record player to cut through
blocked grooves, I wouldn't want to do that during the course of a
transfer.
Post by ansermetniac
the only reason that turntables and cartridges were made to track at 2
grams or lower, especially under 1 gram, was to make records last
longer. When you want only one good transfer that is moot.
Sounds like you don't mind cutting into the vinyl.
Post by ansermetniac
Shure m3d for stereo records
That's got to be a minimum of 30 years old, and with a spherical stylus I
wouldn't think it would get the most out of a record. But at a 6 gram max
rated force, I guess it might do very well on most warps. What about
warp wow, though?
Post by ansermetniac
http://www.abbeddguardalamei.com/abbeddsplace/schumannkon01Track01.mp3
http://www.abbeddguardalamei.com/abbeddsplace/schumannkon02Track02.mp3
Congratulations on tracking a problem record. But you processed it to
death. It almost sounds like a cylinder recording.
Sounds fine on my bozaks. Perhaps you should get some bozaks.

Seriously, the sounds you are hearing are the real sounds of french
horns. After umpteen years of hearing electronic facsimiles, I can see
how real music sounds foreign to you and everybody else.

And also keep in mind this was recorded in 1952 in Russia. If you have
not heard the raw transfer, you have no right to comment on the
processing. Maybe it sounded that way on the original lp.

And I did not ruin the vinyl. How many lbs do you think I was tracking
at. Using a modern stylus that is not the same shape as what went
before is not recommended. I used the fairchild for this one as it was
mono. A 1 mil real diamond

Abbedd

Any man who afflicts the human race with ideas must be prepared to see them misunderstood.
- HL Mencken
a***@aol.com
2006-11-30 20:07:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kimba W. Lion
Post by ansermetniac
They were transfered from the gold seal cassetes with a Nak Cr7a
I remember reading an article (I can't remember which hi-fi enthusiast mag
it was in, but it was around the start of the CD era) in which the author
contended that a commercially-produced cassette was the closest a consumer
could get to master-tape-quality sound. I've never heard anything to
support that contention; I would rank cassettes as better-than-8-tracks --
which falls into the category of faint praise. But I admit I've never
experienced playback via a Nakamichi deck.
Post by ansermetniac
To get one good transfer of an lp one must track as heavy as you can.
I can't for the life of me guess at the rationale behind that statement.
I am an audio idiot but I do know from my time (briefly) as a freelance
continuity announcer for Her Majesty's BBC that the recommended
tracking weight of the Shure cartridge of the time was about 1.5 to 2
grams whereas the BBC for broadcast performances tracked at closer to 5
grams on commercial recordings - achieved by wrapping countless
heavyweight rubber bands round the cartridge head which is probably not
what Shure envisaged with their then state of the art stylus.

My memory is that it had nothing to do with "sound reproduction" but
rather to try and avoid the national embarrassment of the LP "getting
stuck" on national livel airwave, the then thinking that close on 5
grams would probably bulldoze it's way through virtually anything.

Here ends my audio contribution:):) although I have cranked up my
elderly Garrard 301 to deal with recalcitrant Melodiya issues from time
to time using the same technique.

That was then, of course, or in a few isolated cases now.

Kind regards,
Alan M. Watkins
Ralph
2006-11-30 19:00:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by ansermetniac
They were transfered from the gold seal cassetes with a Nak Cr7a
To get one good transfer of an lp one must track as heavy as you can.
Abbedd
How do you like the Toscanini Beethoven Missa Solemnis on RCA?

Ralph
ansermetniac
2006-11-30 19:14:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ralph
Post by ansermetniac
They were transfered from the gold seal cassetes with a Nak Cr7a
To get one good transfer of an lp one must track as heavy as you can.
Abbedd
How do you like the Toscanini Beethoven Missa Solemnis on RCA?
Ralph
Not good. But they started at a disadvantage. the original engineers
miked it so the chorus was too loud as compared to the orchestra and
soloists. The more I hear the gold seal cds, the more I realize how
bad they are. Good thing Haggin died before they were released. The
music SCREAMS at you. Carnegie 8-H and 3a are nowhere to be found

Abbedd
tomdeacon
2006-11-30 18:05:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by ansermetniac
I assure you and everybody else that you have never heard the AT
cycle. RCA and BMG have never released it. What they released is a
psuedo Toscanini cycle that due to their equalization, have undone all
that AT worked so hard to achieve. If you would like, I can send you
a DVD-ROM of the cycle that has all the attacks and decays that AT
worked so hard to get, the blend of the instuments etc that makes this
the greatest cycle ever done. It also comes with an essay that
explains why this , and not the 1939 cycle is the greatest AT cycle of
the LVB Symphonies
This guy is a nut. He's also deaf.

Can someone please put him out of his misery, and us out of ours?

TD
ansermetniac
2006-11-30 18:07:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by tomdeacon
Post by ansermetniac
I assure you and everybody else that you have never heard the AT
cycle. RCA and BMG have never released it. What they released is a
psuedo Toscanini cycle that due to their equalization, have undone all
that AT worked so hard to achieve. If you would like, I can send you
a DVD-ROM of the cycle that has all the attacks and decays that AT
worked so hard to get, the blend of the instuments etc that makes this
the greatest cycle ever done. It also comes with an essay that
explains why this , and not the 1939 cycle is the greatest AT cycle of
the LVB Symphonies
This guy is a nut. He's also deaf.
Can someone please put him out of his misery, and us out of ours?
TD
It goes right over your head Deacon

Abbedd
Usenet Nerwsgroup N.
A Microcosm of everyday life where you will find
1) Self proclaimed experts, who are not
2) Insecure people,who when disagreed with,trash your character
3) Anti-Semitism
Abbeddrose Bierce
ansermetniac
2006-11-30 18:11:48 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 30 Nov 2006 13:07:35 -0500, ansermetniac
Post by tomdeacon
This guy is a nut. He's also deaf.
I may be a nut as that is a subjective call. But saying that the chief
engineer of the Dave Guardala companies is deaf, does not bode well
for the singer of that song when one considers the products that havr
come out of that factory. I suggest you sing another song. How about,
I Have a Little Dreidel.

Abbedd
Usenet Nerwsgroup N.
A Microcosm of everyday life where you will find
1) Self proclaimed experts, who are not
2) Insecure people,who when disagreed with,trash your character
3) Anti-Semitism
Abbeddrose Bierce
j***@sympatico.ca
2006-11-30 16:40:34 UTC
Permalink
"Greatest Beethoven Cycles"
Post by Ralph
1. Norrington/Virgin
2. Zinman/Arte Nova
3. Toscanini/RCA
4. Karajan/DG 1975-1977
5. Gardiner/DG Archiv
In this order?!?

JG
Ralph
2006-11-30 18:54:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ralph
"Greatest Beethoven Cycles"
Post by Ralph
1. Norrington/Virgin
2. Zinman/Arte Nova
3. Toscanini/RCA
4. Karajan/DG 1975-1977
5. Gardiner/DG Archiv
In this order?!?
JG
No. I followed Gram's listing, which contained no ranking among these five.
Matthew Silverstein
2006-11-30 18:29:58 UTC
Permalink
For what's it worth, my top 5 might be:

Gardiner (Archiv)
Mackerras (EMI)
Barenboim (Teldec)
Wand (RCA)
Mengelberg (Philips)

Matty
j***@aol.com
2006-11-30 18:38:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Matthew Silverstein
Gardiner (Archiv)
Mackerras (EMI)
Barenboim (Teldec)
Wand (RCA)
Mengelberg (Philips)
Matty
A list worthy of the question. I would probably substitute Zinman
and/or Harnoncourt for Gardiner (I can't quite muster enthusiasm for
him though his energy and clarity are obvious).

Also, it is interesting how few mentions of Barenboim (just one
other?). And why has no one mentioned the Blomstedt set which usually
gets so many recommendations? And where is a Jochum set?

I still would not want to leave Szell or Schuricht or Toscanini off the
list, among others, even if your choices seem compelling in other ways.

--Jeff
Eric Grunin
2006-11-30 20:41:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ralph
Just in time for some seasonal good cheer, the December 2006 issue of
Gramophone has listed "The Five Greatest Beethoven Cycles" (Symphonies).
Gramophone's "Greatest Beethoven Cycles"
1. Norrington/Virgin
2. Zinman/Arte Nova
3. Toscanini/RCA
4. Karajan/DG 1975-1977
5. Gardiner/DG Archiv
This tells you all you need to know about Gramophone, and nothing you
need to know about Beethoven Symphony Cycles.

Regards,
Eric Grunin
www.grunin.com/eroica
ansermetniac
2006-11-30 20:55:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Eric Grunin
This tells you all you need to know about Gramophone,
What does it tell you?

Abbedd

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