Discussion:
Brahms Piano Concerto 1
(too old to reply)
Michael White
2007-03-07 03:27:10 UTC
Permalink
Simon Roberts once indicated that in this concerto the conductor is more
important than the pianist and that great conducting coupled with second
rate playing yields better results than first rate playing with second rate
conducting.

Are there other examples?
Bob Lombard
2007-03-07 03:41:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Michael White
Simon Roberts once indicated that in this concerto the conductor is
more important than the pianist and that great conducting coupled with
second rate playing yields better results than first rate playing with
second rate conducting.
Are there other examples?
----------

Not better results as in good, just more nearly tolerable.

bl
p***@yahoo.com
2007-03-07 03:51:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Michael White
Simon Roberts once indicated that in this concerto the conductor is more
important than the pianist and that great conducting coupled with second
rate playing yields better results than first rate playing with second rate
conducting.
I guess I agree with him, because while Gilel's playing in his DG
recording is hardly second rate, Jochum's conducting and the sound he
pulls from the BPO is a bigger factor in why it's my favorite
recording of the piece (it's high up on my list of desert island discs
in general). The way they play that opening orchestral salvo in the
first movement sends chills down my spine. That big BPO wall of sound
is so vast and heavy that it's like a gigantic force that will crush
anything in its way.
Barry
ArturPS
2007-03-07 04:41:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by p***@yahoo.com
Post by Michael White
important than the pianist and that great conducting coupled with second
rate playing yields better results than first rate playing with second rate
conducting.
I guess I agree with him, because while Gilel's playing in his DG
recording is hardly second rate, Jochum's conducting and the sound he
pulls from the BPO is a bigger factor in why it's my favorite
recording of the piece (it's high up on my list of desert island discs
in general). The way they play that opening orchestral salvo in the
first movement sends chills down my spine. That big BPO wall of sound
is so vast and heavy that it's like a gigantic force that will crush
anything in its way.
Barry
I couldn't agree more, especially the "hammer of justice" moment in
the coda of the 1st mov. where the BPO takes the theme over furiously
against Gilel's imposing octaves.
tomdeacon
2007-03-07 09:32:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by ArturPS
I couldn't agree more, especially the "hammer of justice" moment in
the coda of the 1st mov. where the BPO takes the theme over furiously
against Gilel's imposing octaves.
If you want to hear this section thrillingly played (and recorded) try
the Arrau/Giulini recording on EMI.

I remember hearing it first on radio in my home and going straight to
the store to buy the record.

This is not, by the way, a negative comment on Gilels/Jochum, which is
certainly OK, but simply a statement of one of the great moments in
recorded music, in my opinion. Akin to the finale of Act I in RCA/
Decca's Die Walkure with Leinsdorf.

TD
p***@yahoo.com
2007-03-07 16:27:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by tomdeacon
Post by tomdeacon
If you want to hear this section thrillingly played (and recorded) try
the Arrau/Giulini recording on EMI.
I've got it and do like it very much, but not as much as the Gilels/
Jochum.
Roland van Gaalen
2007-03-11 13:07:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by p***@yahoo.com
Post by tomdeacon
Post by tomdeacon
If you want to hear this section thrillingly played (and recorded) try
the Arrau/Giulini recording on EMI.
I've got it and do like it very much, but not as much as the Gilels/
Jochum.
I am too embarrassed to name my favorite recording, and I suppose that I
should also be extremely embarrassed that I just discovered that one of my
other favorite recordings of this work was not conducted by van K with the
Berlin Philharmonic (as I had always assumed) but by K and the Staatskapelle
Dresden!!!
--
Roland van Gaalen
Amsterdam
r.p.vangaalenATchello.nl
j***@sympatico.ca
2007-03-07 22:18:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by tomdeacon
Post by ArturPS
I couldn't agree more, especially the "hammer of justice" moment in
the coda of the 1st mov. where the BPO takes the theme over furiously
against Gilel's imposing octaves.
If you want to hear this section thrillingly played (and recorded) try
the Arrau/Giulini recording on EMI.
I remember hearing it first on radio in my home and going straight to
the store to buy the record.
This is not, by the way, a negative comment on Gilels/Jochum, which is
certainly OK, but simply a statement of one of the great moments in
recorded music, in my opinion. Akin to the finale of Act I in RCA/
Decca's Die Walkure with Leinsdorf.
TD
Arrau and Brahms: yes, yes, and yes again. Sure, Richter can knock
off those insane octaves in P.C. 2. But Arrau is better: we can
actually HEAR the even more insane left-hand run in thirds up 4
octaves (last movement).

Unless you've heard Arrau (esp, the Angel version) play the Brahms. PC
1 and 2, you just haven't heard them!

(There, I went out on a limb.)

JG

JG
sechumlib
2007-03-08 02:28:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by j***@sympatico.ca
Unless you've heard Arrau (esp, the Angel version) play the Brahms. PC
1 and 2, you just haven't heard them!
Well, I have Arrau/Haitink, and it's pretty good - but SLOW (first
movement, anyway). Still good; don't get me wrong.

But I became addicted to Serkin/Szell, and there I am still.
A. Brain
2007-03-11 03:00:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by tomdeacon
If you want to hear this section thrillingly played (and recorded) try
the Arrau/Giulini recording on EMI.
Saw this set (1 and 2) at mid-price at the LTIS
today. Probably the last thing I need is another
(I have Fleisher, Ash/Hatto, Serkin, Rubinstein,
and Buchbinder, and a few others) Now I find
that I have an Arrau//Markevitch with a bonus
interview as well.

The recording with Markevich is not listed in
the discography of the book CONVERSATIONS
WITH ARRAU.

The Arrau/Giulini appears to be OOP in the USA.

The book has been reissued as ARRAU ON MUSIC
AND PERFORMANCE.
--
A. Brain

Remove NOSPAM for email.
Steve de Mena
2007-03-11 03:28:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by A. Brain
Post by tomdeacon
If you want to hear this section thrillingly played (and recorded) try
the Arrau/Giulini recording on EMI.
Saw this set (1 and 2) at mid-price at the LTIS
today. Probably the last thing I need is another
(I have Fleisher, Ash/Hatto, Serkin, Rubinstein,
and Buchbinder, and a few others) Now I find
that I have an Arrau//Markevitch with a bonus
interview as well.
The recording with Markevich is not listed in
the discography of the book CONVERSATIONS
WITH ARRAU.
The Arrau/Giulini appears to be OOP in the USA.
Amazon has the Arrau/Giulini...

http://tinyurl.com/34lzmk

Steve
td
2007-03-11 03:32:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by A. Brain
Post by tomdeacon
If you want to hear this section thrillingly played (and recorded) try
the Arrau/Giulini recording on EMI.
Saw this set (1 and 2) at mid-price at the LTIS
today. Probably the last thing I need is another
(I have Fleisher, Ash/Hatto, Serkin, Rubinstein,
and Buchbinder, and a few others) Now I find
that I have an Arrau//Markevitch with a bonus
interview as well.
The recording with Markevich is not listed in
the discography of the book CONVERSATIONS
WITH ARRAU.
This "live" recording was not available or documented - like most of
Arrau's live performances - when the book was written.
Post by A. Brain
The Arrau/Giulini appears to be OOP in the USA.
I think if you look beyond the USA you will find it quite easily.

Both performances are, in my opinion, unique, although others do very
well with both these pieces.
Post by A. Brain
The book has been reissued as ARRAU ON MUSIC
AND PERFORMANCE.
Nice to know. Perhaps it has an updated discography.

TD
dk
2007-03-11 08:05:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by td
Post by A. Brain
Post by tomdeacon
If you want to hear this section thrillingly played (and recorded) try
the Arrau/Giulini recording on EMI.
Saw this set (1 and 2) at mid-price at the LTIS
today. Probably the last thing I need is another
(I have Fleisher, Ash/Hatto, Serkin, Rubinstein,
and Buchbinder, and a few others) Now I find
that I have an Arrau//Markevitch with a bonus
interview as well.
The recording with Markevich is not listed in
the discography of the book CONVERSATIONS
WITH ARRAU.
This "live" recording was not available or documented - like most of
Arrau's live performances - when the book was written.
Post by A. Brain
The Arrau/Giulini appears to be OOP in the USA.
I think if you look beyond the USA you will find it quite easily.
Both performances are, in my opinion, unique, although others do very
well with both these pieces.
They are most certainly the slowest on record.


dk
A. Brain
2007-03-11 09:29:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by dk
Post by td
Post by A. Brain
Post by tomdeacon
If you want to hear this section thrillingly played (and
recorded) try
the Arrau/Giulini recording on EMI.
Saw this set (1 and 2) at mid-price at the LTIS
today. Probably the last thing I need is another
(I have Fleisher, Ash/Hatto, Serkin, Rubinstein,
and Buchbinder, and a few others) Now I find
that I have an Arrau//Markevitch with a bonus
interview as well.
The recording with Markevich is not listed in
the discography of the book CONVERSATIONS
WITH ARRAU.
This "live" recording was not available or documented - like most of
Arrau's live performances - when the book was written.
Post by A. Brain
The Arrau/Giulini appears to be OOP in the USA.
I think if you look beyond the USA you will find it quite easily.
Both performances are, in my opinion, unique, although others do very
well with both these pieces.
They are most certainly the slowest on record.
I listened to the Arrau/Markevich (2) tonight and it is
slow but it did not seem slow. Perhaps "characterful"
is another term for "deliberative" or "ruminative".

By timings, Ashkenazy is slower still, but it's been
a while since I heard that one.

Arrau reminded me of the Barenboim recording
I had on LP. Have not heard that one for a while
either.
--
A. Brain

Remove NOSPAM for email.
dk
2007-03-11 08:04:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by tomdeacon
Post by ArturPS
I couldn't agree more, especially the "hammer of justice" moment in
the coda of the 1st mov. where the BPO takes the theme over furiously
against Gilel's imposing octaves.
If you want to hear this section thrillingly played (and recorded) try
the Arrau/Giulini recording on EMI.
One of the most boring and ruminative recordings of the work.
An abomination.


dk
Andrew T. Kay
2007-03-07 09:33:26 UTC
Permalink
I haven't listened to the Gilels/Jochum in a decade (although I see
it's still on my shelf), but the enthusiasm here for the BPO's
contribution brings to my mind an interesting footnote to the
discussion: the Brahms D-minor is certainly not the concerto the
Berliners of that era got the most chances to play! Karajan is
reported by his biographer to have had a bizarre aversion to it that
he never explained (to anyone who's gone on record, anyway). Whenever
the subject of him recording it or giving it live with any pianist was
broached, he would change the subject without even acknowledging that
he'd heard the work suggested. More than once, he even went as far as
to omit the D-minor from festivals/series in which he conducted all of
the other Brahms concertos and symphonies.

This doesn't seem to have been simply a case of him not "liking" it
(in every stage of his career, he dutifully conducted works he was
open about not liking), but something rather more unusual: a
superstitious belief that it was "jinxed" (Osborne's term), a negative
psychological association it had for him, etc. We'll likely never
know.

So maybe what you're hearing in that recording is the BPO's excitement
at cutting loose in music that was at once well known and new
territory.

Todd K
James Kahn
2007-03-07 13:31:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andrew T. Kay
I haven't listened to the Gilels/Jochum in a decade (although I see
it's still on my shelf), but the enthusiasm here for the BPO's
contribution brings to my mind an interesting footnote to the
discussion: the Brahms D-minor is certainly not the concerto the
Berliners of that era got the most chances to play! Karajan is
reported by his biographer to have had a bizarre aversion to it that
he never explained (to anyone who's gone on record, anyway).
[snip]
Post by Andrew T. Kay
So maybe what you're hearing in that recording is the BPO's excitement
at cutting loose in music that was at once well known and new
territory.
Interesting story. But I always found the Gilels/Jochum performance rather
sluggish. I prefer Graffman/Munch among others.
--
Jim
New York, NY
(Please remove "nospam." to get my e-mail address)
http://www.panix.com/~kahn
Bob Lombard
2007-03-07 14:22:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by James Kahn
Post by Andrew T. Kay
I haven't listened to the Gilels/Jochum in a decade (although I see
it's still on my shelf), but the enthusiasm here for the BPO's
contribution brings to my mind an interesting footnote to the
discussion: the Brahms D-minor is certainly not the concerto the
Berliners of that era got the most chances to play! Karajan is
reported by his biographer to have had a bizarre aversion to it that
he never explained (to anyone who's gone on record, anyway).
[snip]
Post by Andrew T. Kay
So maybe what you're hearing in that recording is the BPO's excitement
at cutting loose in music that was at once well known and new
territory.
Interesting story. But I always found the Gilels/Jochum performance rather
sluggish. I prefer Graffman/Munch among others.
--
Jim
New York, NY
(Please remove "nospam." to get my e-mail address)
http://www.panix.com/~kahn
Gilels/Jochum seems sluggish to me too. My favorite is
Rubinstein/Leinsdorf/BSO. This thread has drifted some.

bl
tomdeacon
2007-03-07 14:28:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bob Lombard
This thread has drifted some.
If you're looking for "thread drift", Bob, I think you can profitably
look elsewhere.

TD
Allen
2007-03-07 15:19:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bob Lombard
Post by James Kahn
Post by Andrew T. Kay
I haven't listened to the Gilels/Jochum in a decade (although I see
it's still on my shelf), but the enthusiasm here for the BPO's
contribution brings to my mind an interesting footnote to the
discussion: the Brahms D-minor is certainly not the concerto the
Berliners of that era got the most chances to play! Karajan is
reported by his biographer to have had a bizarre aversion to it that
he never explained (to anyone who's gone on record, anyway).
[snip]
Post by Andrew T. Kay
So maybe what you're hearing in that recording is the BPO's excitement
at cutting loose in music that was at once well known and new
territory.
Interesting story. But I always found the Gilels/Jochum performance rather
sluggish. I prefer Graffman/Munch among others.
--
Jim
New York, NY
(Please remove "nospam." to get my e-mail address)
http://www.panix.com/~kahn
Gilels/Jochum seems sluggish to me too. My favorite is
Rubinstein/Leinsdorf/BSO. This thread has drifted some.
bl
The be-all-and-end-all PC1 for me is Fleisher/Szell/Cleveland, by a wide
margin.
Allen
dk
2007-03-15 01:54:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Allen
Post by Bob Lombard
Post by James Kahn
Post by Andrew T. Kay
I haven't listened to the Gilels/Jochum in a decade (although I see
it's still on my shelf), but the enthusiasm here for the BPO's
contribution brings to my mind an interesting footnote to the
discussion: the Brahms D-minor is certainly not the concerto the
Berliners of that era got the most chances to play! Karajan is
reported by his biographer to have had a bizarre aversion to it that
he never explained (to anyone who's gone on record, anyway).
[snip]
Post by Andrew T. Kay
So maybe what you're hearing in that recording is the BPO's excitement
at cutting loose in music that was at once well known and new
territory.
Interesting story. But I always found the Gilels/Jochum performance rather
sluggish. I prefer Graffman/Munch among others.
--
Jim
New York, NY
(Please remove "nospam." to get my e-mail address)
http://www.panix.com/~kahn
Gilels/Jochum seems sluggish to me too. My favorite is
Rubinstein/Leinsdorf/BSO. This thread has drifted some.
The be-all-and-end-all PC1 for me is Fleisher/Szell/Cleveland,
by a wide margin.
Oops! Another listener with armor plated ears! ;-)

dk

Michael Schaffer
2007-03-09 09:52:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andrew T. Kay
I haven't listened to the Gilels/Jochum in a decade (although I see
it's still on my shelf), but the enthusiasm here for the BPO's
contribution brings to my mind an interesting footnote to the
discussion: the Brahms D-minor is certainly not the concerto the
Berliners of that era got the most chances to play! Karajan is
reported by his biographer to have had a bizarre aversion to it that
he never explained (to anyone who's gone on record, anyway). Whenever
the subject of him recording it or giving it live with any pianist was
broached, he would change the subject without even acknowledging that
he'd heard the work suggested. More than once, he even went as far as
to omit the D-minor from festivals/series in which he conducted all of
the other Brahms concertos and symphonies.
This doesn't seem to have been simply a case of him not "liking" it
(in every stage of his career, he dutifully conducted works he was
open about not liking), but something rather more unusual: a
superstitious belief that it was "jinxed" (Osborne's term), a negative
psychological association it had for him, etc. We'll likely never
know.
So maybe what you're hearing in that recording is the BPO's excitement
at cutting loose in music that was at once well known and new
territory.
Todd K
Or maybe you just have a very lively fantasy. Guess what: throughout
all the time Karajan was there, the BP always had guest conductors,
too. No kidding! For instance, Eugen Jochum. But a lot of others, too.
So while it is true that Karajan never conducted the 1st piano
concerto, that tells you nothing about how often the piece was played
the orchestra. In fact, I heard it myself several times when he was
still principal conductor. Just not with him. Do you have a complete
list of all the concerts given by the BP during those years?
Paul Ilechko
2007-03-07 15:08:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by p***@yahoo.com
Post by Michael White
Simon Roberts once indicated that in this concerto the conductor is more
important than the pianist and that great conducting coupled with second
rate playing yields better results than first rate playing with second rate
conducting.
I guess I agree with him, because while Gilel's playing in his DG
recording is hardly second rate, Jochum's conducting and the sound he
pulls from the BPO is a bigger factor in why it's my favorite
recording of the piece
That's interesting, because while I think that Gilels plays superbly, I
dumped the Jochum/Gilels concertos because of the conducting. Jochum
drags out the opening movement of PC1 interminably, he takes it far too
slowly. Play him back to back with Mitropoulos to see what I mean. It's
like two different pieces of music.
p***@yahoo.com
2007-03-07 15:54:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul Ilechko
Post by p***@yahoo.com
I guess I agree with him, because while Gilel's playing in his DG
recording is hardly second rate, Jochum's conducting and the sound he
pulls from the BPO is a bigger factor in why it's my favorite
recording of the piece
That's interesting, because while I think that Gilels plays superbly, I
dumped the Jochum/Gilels concertos because of the conducting. Jochum
drags out the opening movement of PC1 interminably, he takes it far too
slowly. Play him back to back with Mitropoulos to see what I mean. It's
like two different pieces of music.
I know what you're saying. But while the Mitropoulos approach may be
the ideal to you, the slower approach with a bigger sound is what
works for me. I went out and picked up the Rubinstein/Reiner recording
when it appeared on SACD. After a couple listenings, I just couldn't
take it any more. The CSO's fleet approach with lean strings just
sounded completely wrong to me. I prefer thick orchestral textures for
Brahms, and I don't think I've ever heard that type of sound achieved
better than by Jochum and the BPO in that concerto recording.
Barry
Paul Ilechko
2007-03-07 16:49:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by p***@yahoo.com
I know what you're saying. But while the Mitropoulos approach may be
the ideal to you, the slower approach with a bigger sound is what
works for me. I went out and picked up the Rubinstein/Reiner recording
when it appeared on SACD. After a couple listenings, I just couldn't
take it any more. The CSO's fleet approach with lean strings just
sounded completely wrong to me. I prefer thick orchestral textures for
Brahms, and I don't think I've ever heard that type of sound achieved
better than by Jochum and the BPO in that concerto recording.
Barry
whatever works for you ;-)
j***@aol.com
2007-03-07 16:57:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by p***@yahoo.com
Post by Paul Ilechko
Post by p***@yahoo.com
I guess I agree with him, because while Gilel's playing in his DG
recording is hardly second rate, Jochum's conducting and the sound he
pulls from the BPO is a bigger factor in why it's my favorite
recording of the piece
That's interesting, because while I think that Gilels plays superbly, I
dumped the Jochum/Gilels concertos because of the conducting. Jochum
drags out the opening movement of PC1 interminably, he takes it far too
slowly. Play him back to back with Mitropoulos to see what I mean. It's
like two different pieces of music.
I know what you're saying. But while the Mitropoulos approach may be
the ideal to you, the slower approach with a bigger sound is what
works for me. I went out and picked up the Rubinstein/Reiner recording
when it appeared on SACD. After a couple listenings, I just couldn't
take it any more. The CSO's fleet approach with lean strings just
sounded completely wrong to me. I prefer thick orchestral textures for
Brahms, and I don't think I've ever heard that type of sound achieved
better than by Jochum and the BPO in that concerto recording.
Barry
Like Paul, I had exactly the opposite reaction. I wish Gilels had
recorded this with a different orchestra and/or different engineering
team. I find it hard to believe that Jochum is totally responsible for
the lugubriousness of the DG recording. I certainly can imagine the
appeal of it if you like the textures, however.

Gilels and Jochum were a great partnership in the Grieg concerto (on
Tahra), andI can certainly imagine a great Brahms 1 with these two
artists.

Do you find Jochum's testures to be very similar in the Brahms
symphonies he recorded in Berlin, or in London, for that matter?

--Jeff
p***@yahoo.com
2007-03-07 17:40:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by j***@aol.com
Do you find Jochum's testures to be very similar in the Brahms
symphonies he recorded in Berlin, or in London, for that matter?
I think I've only heard the second from the London set and that was
years ago. And while I own the Berlin set, it's also been a good
amount of time since I've listened to them. I know the first from that
set is one of my favorite recordings of that symphony though; perhaps
only surpassed by a couple Furtwangler performances.

Barry
Steve Emerson
2007-03-07 18:51:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by j***@aol.com
Like Paul, I had exactly the opposite reaction. I wish Gilels had
recorded this with a different orchestra and/or different engineering
team.
He did. But you know that.

SE.
j***@aol.com
2007-03-07 20:09:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve Emerson
Post by j***@aol.com
Like Paul, I had exactly the opposite reaction. I wish Gilels had
recorded this with a different orchestra and/or different engineering
team.
He did. But you know that.
SE.
I know the Brahms 2 with Reiner. But which Brahms 1 with Gilels am I
forgetting?

--Jeff
Steve Emerson
2007-03-07 20:59:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by j***@aol.com
Post by Steve Emerson
Post by j***@aol.com
Like Paul, I had exactly the opposite reaction. I wish Gilels had
recorded this with a different orchestra and/or different engineering
team.
He did. But you know that.
SE.
I know the Brahms 2 with Reiner. But which Brahms 1 with Gilels am I
forgetting?
Ach, a tic of the brain. Have to make do with Gelber and Katchen, I
guess.

BTW I agree about the Gilels/Jochum Brahms 1; I don't have any problems
with their 2, but the 1 is a different matter.

SE.
p***@yahoo.com
2007-03-07 21:08:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve Emerson
BTW I agree about the Gilels/Jochum Brahms 1; I don't have any problems
with their 2, but the 1 is a different matter.
Funny. I don't like the second nearly as much as the first.
HPLeft
2007-03-11 13:07:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by j***@aol.com
Like Paul, I had exactly the opposite reaction. I wish Gilels had
recorded this with a different orchestra and/or different engineering
team. I find it hard to believe that Jochum is totally responsible for
the lugubriousness of the DG recording. I certainly can imagine the
appeal of it if you like the textures, however.
I just listened to this again after reading this thread the other day. The
tempos are just TOO SLOW. And I like Gilels and Jochum, individually. This
is a young man's concerto, not late Brahms. I know that I prefer Szell's
conducting in the piece, and I'll pull out Reiner today and I expect that
he, too, will be much more to my liking.

Matt C
matt
2007-03-07 21:27:57 UTC
Permalink
The way they play that opening orchestral salvo in the
Post by p***@yahoo.com
first movement sends chills down my spine. That big BPO wall of sound
is so vast and heavy that it's like a gigantic force that will crush
anything in its way.
Barry
My favorite too, and for exactly the same reason. Though "wall of
sound" is a term usually associated with Phil Spector rather than the
Berlin Philharmonic, it's 100% apt here. I recall another recording
with a similar affect, though less rewarding and less refined: Franz
Paul Dekker and Bruno Leonardo Gelber. You might enjoy it; it was
pretty gigantic.
Matt
Alan Briker
2007-03-08 00:14:32 UTC
Permalink
I own several recordings of this incl Rubinstein/Reiner.Gilels/Jochum, and
Serkin/Szell. I have no single favorite, but I cannot understand the
enthusiasm many have for the Curzon/Szell performance.
Alan


On 3/7/07 4:27 PM, in article
Post by p***@yahoo.com
The way they play that opening orchestral salvo in the
Post by p***@yahoo.com
first movement sends chills down my spine. That big BPO wall of sound
is so vast and heavy that it's like a gigantic force that will crush
anything in its way.
Barry
My favorite too, and for exactly the same reason. Though "wall of
sound" is a term usually associated with Phil Spector rather than the
Berlin Philharmonic, it's 100% apt here. I recall another recording
with a similar affect, though less rewarding and less refined: Franz
Paul Dekker and Bruno Leonardo Gelber. You might enjoy it; it was
pretty gigantic.
Matt
Norman M. Schwartz
2007-03-08 02:28:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alan Briker
I own several recordings of this incl Rubinstein/Reiner.Gilels/Jochum, and
Serkin/Szell. I have no single favorite, but I cannot understand the
enthusiasm many have for the Curzon/Szell performance.
Alan
How about any enthusiasm for these?
http://www.amazon.com/Fleisher-Plays-Brahms-Jules-Eskin/dp/B0000029YK/ref=sr_1_1/002-1862735-2507264?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1173320657&sr=1-1
Sol L. Siegel
2007-03-09 05:11:01 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 7 Mar 2007 21:28:50 -0500, "Norman M. Schwartz"
Post by Norman M. Schwartz
Post by Alan Briker
I cannot understand the
enthusiasm many have for the Curzon/Szell performance.
Alan
How about any enthusiasm for these?
http://www.amazon.com/Fleisher-Plays-Brahms-Jules-Eskin/dp/B0000029YK/ref=sr_1_1/002-1862735-2507264?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1173320657&sr=1-1
What's wrong with them? The D minor is a dynamic performance that
remains my personal fave. There are several B-flats I prefer, but the
chamber-like collaboration is still something special.

- Sol L. Siegel, Philadelphia, PA
"It may take a village to raise a child - but it only takes one idiot
to burn down the village."
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
Sol L. Siegel
2007-03-08 03:03:31 UTC
Permalink
I cannot understand the enthusiasm many have for the Curzon/Szell performance.
Nor I. The slow movement is interminable.

- Sol L. Siegel, Philadelphia, PA
"It may take a village to raise a child - but it only takes one idiot
to burn down the village."
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
unknown
2007-03-07 22:14:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Michael White
Simon Roberts once indicated that in this concerto the conductor is more
important than the pianist and that great conducting coupled with second
rate playing yields better results than first rate playing with second rate
conducting.
Are there other examples?
Not many examples where it is as obvious as in the Brahms. More often,
in a concerto where the orchestra is relatively equal to the soloist,
the balance could easily tip either way. In theory, that would be true
of many, maybe most, concertos written since the Brahms, since the old
orchestra-as-mere-accompaniment way of writing a concerto had all but
disappeared by the latter part of the Romantic era (I just made that
up, but I think there may be some truth to it). There are lots of
concertos like this, e.g., the Ravels, the Bartoks, or extending the
concept to include instruments othere than just the piano, the
Szymanowskis. And of course, there are any number of pseudo-concertos
with titles like "Symphonie Concertante", etc., which seem to ask for
strong conducting, rather than a soloist who leads the pack.

But in practice, really great concerto conducting coupled with a
soloist that is second-rate is so seldom encountered that I think it's
impossible to come up with many useful examples. I would imagine that
even for a first-rate conductor, the situation wouldn't inspire their
best efforts. Plus, I think we're so conditioned to judge concerto
performances with an emphasis on the soloist that it's really difficult
to listen to performances without that bias. And, the solo-centric
engineering of recordings usually adds to the bias.

wr
p***@yahoo.com
2007-03-08 02:55:14 UTC
Permalink
I find this extended clip from the opening movement by Hough/Ivan
Fischer very enjoyable:



There are a few more clips on Youtube from the same performance, but
not all of it.
Loading...