Discussion:
to the person in this group who knows everything there is to know about music...
(too old to reply)
William Sommerwerck
2011-09-19 00:37:39 UTC
Permalink
I just finished watching the first four "Star Wars" episodes, on Blu-ray. A
Certain Person will be happy to hear that I found Hayden Christiansen's
performance rather less bad the second time around -- though it still leaves
much to be desired.

In the scene in Episode IV when Ham Salad lifts the cover on the cargo bay
where he's been hiding, John Williams plays the "mad house" theme from
"Psycho". I've been wondering for 20 years what exactly Williams was getting
at -- if anything. I doubt it's an accident, because once you've heard those
three notes, you're not going to forget them.

Thoughts, anyone? Or is their use at this moment so utterly obvious that I
am exposing myself as a total musical idiot for not recognizing it?

It is unlikely I will respond before next Saturday morning.
--
"We already know the answers -- we just haven't asked the right
questions." -- Edwin Land
Thornhill
2011-09-19 12:03:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by William Sommerwerck
I just finished watching the first four "Star Wars" episodes, on Blu-ray. A
Certain Person will be happy to hear that I found Hayden Christiansen's
performance rather less bad the second time around -- though it still leaves
much to be desired.
In the scene in Episode IV when Ham Salad lifts the cover on the cargo bay
where he's been hiding, John Williams plays the "mad house" theme from
"Psycho". I've been wondering for 20 years what exactly Williams was getting
at -- if anything. I doubt it's an accident, because once you've heard those
three notes, you're not going to forget them.
Thoughts, anyone? Or is their use at this moment so utterly obvious that I
am exposing myself as a total musical idiot for not recognizing it?
It is unlikely I will respond before next Saturday morning.
--
"We already know the answers -- we just haven't asked the right
questions." -- Edwin Land
I think he's just paying homage to Herrman.

He does the same with the opening of the second part to the "Rite of
Spring" when 3PO is wondering through the desert.
Christopher Webber
2011-09-19 12:10:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Thornhill
paying homage
Is that a polite way of saying "ripping off"?? A Star Wars film is
hardly the place for Homages...
--
Christopher Webber, London, UK
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christopher_Webber
ZARZUELA.NET
Thornhill
2011-09-19 16:16:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Christopher Webber
Post by Thornhill
paying homage
Is that a polite way of saying "ripping off"?? A Star Wars film is
hardly the place for Homages...
--
Christopher Webber, London, UKhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christopher_Webber
ZARZUELA.NET
Uh, no.

It's homage when it's a few bars. It's rip-off when you just re-use
someone else's music and take credit for it, such as the "Gladiator"
soundtrack giving Holst zero credit (and Holst's estate sued over it).
Christopher Webber
2011-09-19 16:24:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Thornhill
It's homage when it's a few bars. It's rip-off when you just re-use
someone else's music and take credit for it, such as the "Gladiator"
soundtrack giving Holst zero credit (and Holst's estate sued over it).
Surely "homage" needs a consciousness in a body of listeners (and a
little smile of recognition) if it's to be taken that way. I don't
imagine that many people 'heard' either of the originals cited
(Stravinsky and Herrmann) when they were watching Star Wars.

"Rip off" implies getting the emotional payoff without putting in the
work, but stopping just short of what's actionable.

That's a shameful business you mention with "Gladiator"! Googling, I see
a *rumour* that the Holst Foundation settled out of court for 10M USD,
but no confirmation of that.
--
Christopher Webber, London, UK
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christopher_Webber
ZARZUELA.NET
Mark S
2011-09-19 16:33:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Christopher Webber
Post by Thornhill
It's homage when it's a few bars. It's rip-off when you just re-use
someone else's music and take credit for it, such as the "Gladiator"
soundtrack giving Holst zero credit (and Holst's estate sued over it).
Surely "homage" needs a consciousness in a body of listeners (and a
little smile of recognition) if it's to be taken that way. I don't
imagine that many people 'heard' either of the originals cited
(Stravinsky and Herrmann) when they were watching Star Wars.
"Rip off" implies getting the emotional payoff without putting in the
work, but stopping just short of what's actionable.
That's a shameful business you mention with "Gladiator"! Googling, I see
a *rumour* that the Holst Foundation settled out of court for 10M USD,
but no confirmation of that.
--
Other estates that could have sued and won:

1. Tchaikovsky - for the wholesale ripoff of the first-movement theme
from his Violin Concerto in "The Right Stuff"

2. Mahler - for the wholesale ripoff of the first movement of his 6th
Symphony in "Time Bandits"

3. R Strauss - for the wholesale ripoff of his Ein Heldenleben in "The
Island"

4. R Strauss again - for the ripoff of his transfiguration theme from
Death & Transfiguration as the Genesis Planet is born in Star Trek II

5. Wagner - for the wholesale ripoff of his music in "Excalibur"

Did I miss any?
Gerard
2011-09-19 16:57:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mark S
Post by Christopher Webber
Post by Thornhill
It's homage when it's a few bars. It's rip-off when you just
re-use someone else's music and take credit for it, such as the
"Gladiator" soundtrack giving Holst zero credit (and Holst's
estate sued over it).
Surely "homage" needs a consciousness in a body of listeners (and a
little smile of recognition) if it's to be taken that way. I don't
imagine that many people 'heard' either of the originals cited
(Stravinsky and Herrmann) when they were watching Star Wars.
"Rip off" implies getting the emotional payoff without putting in
the work, but stopping just short of what's actionable.
That's a shameful business you mention with "Gladiator"! Googling,
I see a *rumour* that the Holst Foundation settled out of court for
10M USD, but no confirmation of that.
--
1. Tchaikovsky - for the wholesale ripoff of the first-movement theme
from his Violin Concerto in "The Right Stuff"
2. Mahler - for the wholesale ripoff of the first movement of his 6th
Symphony in "Time Bandits"
3. R Strauss - for the wholesale ripoff of his Ein Heldenleben in "The
Island"
4. R Strauss again - for the ripoff of his transfiguration theme from
Death & Transfiguration as the Genesis Planet is born in Star Trek II
5. Wagner - for the wholesale ripoff of his music in "Excalibur"
Did I miss any?
And none of this music was in the public domain?
M forever
2011-09-19 16:58:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mark S
Post by Christopher Webber
Post by Thornhill
It's homage when it's a few bars. It's rip-off when you just re-use
someone else's music and take credit for it, such as the "Gladiator"
soundtrack giving Holst zero credit (and Holst's estate sued over it).
Surely "homage" needs a consciousness in a body of listeners (and a
little smile of recognition) if it's to be taken that way. I don't
imagine that many people 'heard' either of the originals cited
(Stravinsky and Herrmann) when they were watching Star Wars.
"Rip off" implies getting the emotional payoff without putting in the
work, but stopping just short of what's actionable.
That's a shameful business you mention with "Gladiator"! Googling, I see
a *rumour* that the Holst Foundation settled out of court for 10M USD,
but no confirmation of that.
--
1. Tchaikovsky - for the wholesale ripoff of the first-movement theme
from his Violin Concerto in "The Right Stuff"
2. Mahler - for the wholesale ripoff of the first movement of his 6th
Symphony in "Time Bandits"
3. R Strauss - for the wholesale ripoff of his Ein Heldenleben in "The
Island"
4. R Strauss again - for the ripoff of his transfiguration theme from
Death & Transfiguration as the Genesis Planet is born in Star Trek II
5. Wagner - for the wholesale ripoff of his music in "Excalibur"
Wagner wasn't actually ripped off in Excalibur. It's not like the film
soundtrack stole parts of Wagner and recycled them. They actually used
the actual music, and it was also credited. Or was it? Anyway, is
there still copyright on his music?

If music is openly used in a movie in that way, I don't think one can
speak of a "ripoff". Same, for instance about Wagner in "Apocalypse
Now" and Mascagni in "Raging Bull".

A real, uncredited ripoff I noticed was in "Troy" where the hymn-like
theme from the finale of Shostakovich 5 was extensively "quoted" - and
I actually stayed to watch the credits to see if that was mentioned.
It wasn't.
Allen
2011-09-19 17:09:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mark S
Post by Christopher Webber
Post by Thornhill
It's homage when it's a few bars. It's rip-off when you just re-use
someone else's music and take credit for it, such as the "Gladiator"
soundtrack giving Holst zero credit (and Holst's estate sued over it).
Surely "homage" needs a consciousness in a body of listeners (and a
little smile of recognition) if it's to be taken that way. I don't
imagine that many people 'heard' either of the originals cited
(Stravinsky and Herrmann) when they were watching Star Wars.
"Rip off" implies getting the emotional payoff without putting in the
work, but stopping just short of what's actionable.
That's a shameful business you mention with "Gladiator"! Googling, I see
a *rumour* that the Holst Foundation settled out of court for 10M USD,
but no confirmation of that.
--
1. Tchaikovsky - for the wholesale ripoff of the first-movement theme
from his Violin Concerto in "The Right Stuff"
2. Mahler - for the wholesale ripoff of the first movement of his 6th
Symphony in "Time Bandits"
3. R Strauss - for the wholesale ripoff of his Ein Heldenleben in "The
Island"
4. R Strauss again - for the ripoff of his transfiguration theme from
Death& Transfiguration as the Genesis Planet is born in Star Trek II
5. Wagner - for the wholesale ripoff of his music in "Excalibur"
Did I miss any?
I'm afraid that they wouldn't have won anything, as all were out of
copyright.
Allen
Polluter Politika
2011-09-19 17:24:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mark S
Post by Christopher Webber
Post by Thornhill
It's homage when it's a few bars. It's rip-off when you just re-use
someone else's music and take credit for it, such as the "Gladiator"
soundtrack giving Holst zero credit (and Holst's estate sued over it).
Surely "homage" needs a consciousness in a body of listeners (and a
little smile of recognition) if it's to be taken that way. I don't
imagine that many people 'heard' either of the originals cited
(Stravinsky and Herrmann) when they were watching Star Wars.
"Rip off" implies getting the emotional payoff without putting in the
work, but stopping just short of what's actionable.
That's a shameful business you mention with "Gladiator"! Googling, I see
a *rumour* that the Holst Foundation settled out of court for 10M USD,
but no confirmation of that.
--
1. Tchaikovsky - for the wholesale ripoff of the first-movement theme
from his Violin Concerto in "The Right Stuff"
2. Mahler - for the wholesale ripoff of the first movement of his 6th
Symphony in "Time Bandits"
3. R Strauss - for the wholesale ripoff of his Ein Heldenleben in "The
Island"
4. R Strauss again - for the ripoff of his transfiguration theme from
Death & Transfiguration as the Genesis Planet is born in Star Trek II
5. Wagner - for the wholesale ripoff of his music in "Excalibur"
Did I miss any?
You, as usual assume too much. If you really enjoyed music, even in
films, you would put an end to this strange "rip off" folly of
yours.
Patrillo is dead; He did not leave it to you to continue his "mafia"
type guard over music. Major orchestras have come (FINALLY) to
realize this. Why doesn't a fool like you realize this?
Matthew B. Tepper
2011-09-19 19:59:01 UTC
Permalink
Mark S <***@yahoo.com> appears to have caused the following
letters to be typed in news:0f5f3eaa-c6b6-491e-8991-
Post by Mark S
1. Tchaikovsky - for the wholesale ripoff of the first-movement theme
from his Violin Concerto in "The Right Stuff"
2. Mahler - for the wholesale ripoff of the first movement of his 6th
Symphony in "Time Bandits"
3. R Strauss - for the wholesale ripoff of his Ein Heldenleben in "The
Island"
4. R Strauss again - for the ripoff of his transfiguration theme from
Death & Transfiguration as the Genesis Planet is born in Star Trek II
5. Wagner - for the wholesale ripoff of his music in "Excalibur"
Did I miss any?
I think that Marvin Hamlisch should give his Oscar for "The Sting" to Scott
Joplin's estate, but I know it's never going to happen.

John Forster, in his song "Fusion," imagines Paul Simon musing about the
origin of a certain melody that he had used in "American Tune":

This pretty tune was written by Hans Leo Hassler
In 1599.
I wrote some words and changed about three notes.
Now ASCAP says it's mine.

(Of course, JS Bach famously snitched the same tune in his St. Me Passion.)
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!!
"I don’t think right-wing social engineering is any more desirable
than left-wing social engineering. I don’t think imposing radical
change from the right or the left is a very good way for a free
society to operate. I think we need a national conversation to get
to a better Medicare system with more choices for seniors." Former
Speaker of the House Newt Gingrich on "Meet the Press" 15 May 2011
Opinions expressed here are not necessarily those of my employers.
Steve de Mena
2011-09-25 02:16:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Matthew B. Tepper
I think that Marvin Hamlisch should give his Oscar for "The Sting" to Scott
Joplin's estate, but I know it's never going to happen.
He specifically got an "Adaptation Score" mention in his award, so I
don't think it was considered to be Hamlisch's original music.

Original Song Score and Adaptation: The Sting – Adaptation Score by
Marvin Hamlisch

That same year Hamlisch won "Original Dramatic Score: The Way We Were
– Marvin Hamlisch"

Steve
Thornhill
2011-09-20 00:53:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mark S
Post by Christopher Webber
Post by Thornhill
It's homage when it's a few bars. It's rip-off when you just re-use
someone else's music and take credit for it, such as the "Gladiator"
soundtrack giving Holst zero credit (and Holst's estate sued over it).
Surely "homage" needs a consciousness in a body of listeners (and a
little smile of recognition) if it's to be taken that way. I don't
imagine that many people 'heard' either of the originals cited
(Stravinsky and Herrmann) when they were watching Star Wars.
"Rip off" implies getting the emotional payoff without putting in the
work, but stopping just short of what's actionable.
That's a shameful business you mention with "Gladiator"! Googling, I see
a *rumour* that the Holst Foundation settled out of court for 10M USD,
but no confirmation of that.
--
4. R Strauss again - for the ripoff of his transfiguration theme from
Death & Transfiguration as the Genesis Planet is born in Star Trek II
I think that was a very clear allusion given that the cue comes at a
moment of "death and transfiguration." In much the same manner, the
composer in Star Trek IV quotes "The Unanswered Question" before the
scene where Spock leaves the "how do you feel" question unanswered.
William Sommerwerck
2011-09-24 14:52:47 UTC
Permalink
"Mark S" <***@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:0f5f3eaa-c6b6-491e-8991-***@s7g2000yqd.googlegroups.com...

Other estates that could have sued and won:

1. Tchaikovsky - for the wholesale ripoff of the first-movement theme
from his Violin Concerto in "The Right Stuff"

2. Mahler - for the wholesale ripoff of the first movement of his 6th
Symphony in "Time Bandits"

3. R Strauss - for the wholesale ripoff of his Ein Heldenleben in "The
Island"

4. R Strauss again - for the ripoff of his transfiguration theme from
Death & Transfiguration as the Genesis Planet is born in Star Trek II

5. Wagner - for the wholesale ripoff of his music in "Excalibur"

Actually, there's no attempt to make Wagner sound like anything else. So
it's hardly a ripoff.
Post by Mark S
Did I miss any?
Well... The "evil Empire" theme from "Star Wars" sounds much too much like
"Mars". Holst's estate apparently was on the verge of suing.
M forever
2011-09-24 21:23:24 UTC
Permalink
On Sep 24, 10:52 am, "William Sommerwerck"
Post by Mark S
1. Tchaikovsky - for the wholesale ripoff of the first-movement theme
from his Violin Concerto in "The Right Stuff"
2. Mahler - for the wholesale ripoff of the first movement of his 6th
Symphony in "Time Bandits"
3. R Strauss - for the wholesale ripoff of his Ein Heldenleben in "The
Island"
4. R Strauss again - for the ripoff of his transfiguration theme from
Death & Transfiguration as the Genesis Planet is born in Star Trek II
5. Wagner - for the wholesale ripoff of his music in "Excalibur"
Actually, there's no attempt to make Wagner sound like anything else. So
it's hardly a ripoff.
Post by Mark S
Did I miss any?
Well... The "evil Empire" theme from "Star Wars" sounds much too much like
"Mars". Holst's estate apparently was on the verge of suing.
No, it doesn't. The only similarity is that there is a signal-like
theme in Mars which begins with a three repeated notes, like Williams'
Imperial March. And that's where the similarities end. What Williams
does from there, and how he develops the material is completely
different. That shows once again what an extremely superficial
listener you are. Of course there is no basis for a law suit there. A
lot of musical material has fleeting resemblance to other material.
Most of Holst's material in Planets itself is derived from other
compositions. But in a very inventive way. Just like Williams' Star
Wars.
William Sommerwerck
2011-09-24 21:26:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by William Sommerwerck
Well... The "evil Empire" theme from "Star Wars" sounds much too
much like "Mars". Holst's estate apparently was on the verge of suing.
No, it doesn't.
Yes, it does.
Post by William Sommerwerck
The only similarity is that there is a signal-like
theme in Mars which begins with a three repeated notes, like Williams'
Imperial March. And that's where the similarities end. What Williams
does from there, and how he develops the material is completely
different. That shows once again what an extremely superficial
listener you are. Of course there is no basis for a law suit there. A
lot of musical material has fleeting resemblance to other material.
Most of Holst's material in Planets itself is derived from other
compositions. But in a very inventive way. Just like Williams' Star
Wars.
If it quacks like a duck... it's a duck.

When I first heard the music -- more than 30 years ago -- my initial
reaction was "Oh, no...". I'm sure most of the people in this group had a
similar reaction.
M forever
2011-09-24 21:51:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by William Sommerwerck
Post by William Sommerwerck
Well... The "evil Empire" theme from "Star Wars" sounds much too
much like "Mars". Holst's estate apparently was on the verge of suing.
No, it doesn't.
Yes, it does.
No, it doesn't, and I explained why.
Post by William Sommerwerck
Post by William Sommerwerck
The only similarity is that there is a signal-like
theme in Mars which begins with a three repeated notes, like Williams'
Imperial March. And that's where the similarities end. What Williams
does from there, and how he develops the material is completely
different. That shows once again what an extremely superficial
listener you are. Of course there is no basis for a law suit there. A
lot of musical material has fleeting resemblance to other material.
Most of Holst's material in Planets itself is derived from other
compositions. But in a very inventive way. Just like Williams' Star
Wars.
If it quacks like a duck... it's a duck.
When it comes to music, you are someone who can't tell a duck apart
from an ostrich, and that shows in statements like this.
Only because a theme has two or three notes or some other basic
features in common that doesn't mean it's "lifted". Many musical
themes which express certain ideas or which have a certain character
share some common features. That should be obvious. Both themes are of
the very basic "fanfare", "signal", "march" kind of theme which can be
found in countless compositions somehow referring to war or
militarism. Holst didn't "invent" that basic musical gesture either.
Post by William Sommerwerck
When I first heard the music -- more than 30 years ago -- my initial
reaction was "Oh, no...". I'm sure most of the people in this group had a
similar reaction.
My reaction was, what a great theme, and how much potential for
development in those inverted chords. And how much Williams makes out
of it. That's because I can see beyond the very superficial
similarities of musical elements, and you you can't. You can only pick
up the most superficial layer of music, but you don't understand how
composition works.

That's also why you don't pick up any of the many fine nuances in the
music of many composers you summarily dismissed here.

Sorry but I just have to say this again: you really are a complete
idiot when it comes to music, but you think you are so incredibly
perceptive and smart. But you aren't. You are waffling like a 14-year
old. Like a 14-year old who can't even read music. But you think you
get it all, know it all. You don't, you don't even begin to understand
music. You hear some very superficial similarities between two themes,
but you don't understand how the material is different, and how the
development is different.

The sad thing is that you seem to enjoy listening to music a lot. But
a lot of it is not accessible to your extremely small and closed mind.
You could actually learn to appreciate and enjoy music much more if
you didn't think you already know and understand everything. I learned
a lot from listening to and thinking about what people who know more
about music than I do have to say. You deflect everything that people
offer to you in the way of explanations, because it is just too hard
for you to accept that there are many layers there that you don't even
know are there. That's so pitiful.
William Sommerwerck
2011-09-25 01:20:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by William Sommerwerck
Post by William Sommerwerck
Well... The "evil Empire" theme from "Star Wars" sounds much too
much like "Mars". Holst's estate apparently was on the verge of suing.
No, it doesn't.
Yes, it does.
No, it doesn't, and I explained why.
Post by William Sommerwerck
Post by William Sommerwerck
The only similarity is that there is a signal-like
theme in Mars which begins with a three repeated notes, like Williams'
Imperial March. And that's where the similarities end. What Williams
does from there, and how he develops the material is completely
different. That shows once again what an extremely superficial
listener you are. Of course there is no basis for a law suit there. A
lot of musical material has fleeting resemblance to other material.
Most of Holst's material in Planets itself is derived from other
compositions. But in a very inventive way. Just like Williams' Star
Wars.
If it quacks like a duck... it's a duck.
When it comes to music, you are someone who can't tell a duck apart
from an ostrich, and that shows in statements like this.
Only because a theme has two or three notes or some other basic
features in common that doesn't mean it's "lifted". Many musical
themes which express certain ideas or which have a certain character
share some common features. That should be obvious. Both themes are of
the very basic "fanfare", "signal", "march" kind of theme which can be
found in countless compositions somehow referring to war or
militarism. Holst didn't "invent" that basic musical gesture either.
Post by William Sommerwerck
When I first heard the music -- more than 30 years ago -- my initial
reaction was "Oh, no...". I'm sure most of the people in this group had a
similar reaction.
My reaction was, what a great theme, and how much potential for
development in those inverted chords. And how much Williams makes out
of it. That's because I can see beyond the very superficial
similarities of musical elements, and you you can't. You can only pick
up the most superficial layer of music, but you don't understand how
composition works.

That's also why you don't pick up any of the many fine nuances in the
music of many composers you summarily dismissed here.

Sorry but I just have to say this again: you really are a complete
idiot when it comes to music, but you think you are so incredibly
perceptive and smart. But you aren't. You are waffling like a 14-year
old. Like a 14-year old who can't even read music. But you think you
get it all, know it all. You don't, you don't even begin to understand
music. You hear some very superficial similarities between two themes,
but you don't understand how the material is different, and how the
development is different.

The sad thing is that you seem to enjoy listening to music a lot. But
a lot of it is not accessible to your extremely small and closed mind.
You could actually learn to appreciate and enjoy music much more if
you didn't think you already know and understand everything. I learned
a lot from listening to and thinking about what people who know more
about music than I do have to say. You deflect everything that people
offer to you in the way of explanations, because it is just too hard
for you to accept that there are many layers there that you don't even
know are there. That's so pitiful.


You still haven't answered my question about the cue.
Peter Vandermeulen
2011-09-25 08:40:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by M forever
Post by William Sommerwerck
Post by William Sommerwerck
Well... The "evil Empire" theme from "Star Wars" sounds much too
much like "Mars". Holst's estate apparently was on the verge of
suing. No, it doesn't.
Yes, it does.
No, it doesn't, and I explained why.
Post by William Sommerwerck
Post by William Sommerwerck
The only similarity is that there is a signal-like
theme in Mars which begins with a three repeated notes, like
Williams' Imperial March. And that's where the similarities end.
What Williams does from there, and how he develops the material
is completely different. That shows once again what an extremely
superficial listener you are. Of course there is no basis for a
law suit there. A lot of musical material has fleeting
resemblance to other material. Most of Holst's material in
Planets itself is derived from other compositions. But in a very
inventive way. Just like Williams' Star Wars.
If it quacks like a duck... it's a duck.
When it comes to music, you are someone who can't tell a duck apart
from an ostrich, and that shows in statements like this.
Only because a theme has two or three notes or some other basic
features in common that doesn't mean it's "lifted". Many musical
themes which express certain ideas or which have a certain character
share some common features. That should be obvious. Both themes are of
the very basic "fanfare", "signal", "march" kind of theme which can be
found in countless compositions somehow referring to war or
militarism. Holst didn't "invent" that basic musical gesture either.
Post by William Sommerwerck
When I first heard the music -- more than 30 years ago -- my initial
reaction was "Oh, no...". I'm sure most of the people in this group
had a similar reaction.
My reaction was, what a great theme, and how much potential for
development in those inverted chords. And how much Williams makes out
of it. That's because I can see beyond the very superficial
similarities of musical elements, and you you can't. You can only pick
up the most superficial layer of music, but you don't understand how
composition works.
That's also why you don't pick up any of the many fine nuances in the
music of many composers you summarily dismissed here.
Sorry but I just have to say this again: you really are a complete
idiot when it comes to music, but you think you are so incredibly
perceptive and smart.
RIGHT!
You HAVE TO say so again!
And again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again
and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again
and again and again and again and again and again and again
forever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever
and ever and ever ...
because you simply HAVE TO. You have no choice at all, your mindset forces you
to say everything you say forever.
Must be some sociopathetical obsession and disease.
Post by M forever
But you aren't. You are waffling like a 14-year
old. Like a 14-year old who can't even read music. But you think you
get it all, know it all. You don't, you don't even begin to understand
music. You hear some very superficial similarities between two themes,
but you don't understand how the material is different, and how the
development is different.
The sad thing is that you seem to enjoy listening to music a lot. But
a lot of it is not accessible to your extremely small and closed mind.
You could actually learn to appreciate and enjoy music much more if
you didn't think you already know and understand everything. I learned
a lot from listening to and thinking about what people who know more
about music than I do have to say.
Right. YOU are the perfect guy. Only you!
Post by M forever
You deflect everything that people
offer to you in the way of explanations, because it is just too hard
for you to accept that there are many layers there that you don't even
know are there. That's so pitiful.
M forever
2011-09-25 17:10:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Vandermeulen
Post by M forever
Post by William Sommerwerck
Post by William Sommerwerck
Well... The "evil Empire" theme from "Star Wars" sounds much too
much like "Mars". Holst's estate apparently was on the verge of
suing. No, it doesn't.
Yes, it does.
No, it doesn't, and I explained why.
Post by William Sommerwerck
Post by William Sommerwerck
The only similarity is that there is a signal-like
theme in Mars which begins with a three repeated notes, like
Williams' Imperial March. And that's where the similarities end.
What Williams does from there, and how he develops the material
is completely different. That shows once again what an extremely
superficial listener you are. Of course there is no basis for a
law suit there. A lot of musical material has fleeting
resemblance to other material. Most of Holst's material in
Planets itself is derived from other compositions. But in a very
inventive way. Just like Williams' Star Wars.
If it quacks like a duck... it's a duck.
When it comes to music, you are someone who can't tell a duck apart
from an ostrich, and that shows in statements like this.
Only because a theme has two or three notes or some other basic
features in common that doesn't mean it's "lifted". Many musical
themes which express certain ideas or which have a certain character
share some common features. That should be obvious. Both themes are of
the very basic "fanfare", "signal", "march" kind of theme which can be
found in countless compositions somehow referring to war or
militarism. Holst didn't "invent" that basic musical gesture either.
Post by William Sommerwerck
When I first heard the music -- more than 30 years ago -- my initial
reaction was "Oh, no...". I'm sure most of the people in this group
had a similar reaction.
My reaction was, what a great theme, and how much potential for
development in those inverted chords. And how much Williams makes out
of it. That's because I can see beyond the very superficial
similarities of musical elements, and you you can't. You can only pick
up the most superficial layer of music, but you don't understand how
composition works.
That's also why you don't pick up any of the many fine nuances in the
music of many composers you summarily dismissed here.
Sorry but I just have to say this again: you really are a complete
idiot when it comes to music, but you think you are so incredibly
perceptive and smart.
RIGHT!
You HAVE TO say so again!
And again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again
and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again
and again and again and again and again and again and again
forever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever
and ever and ever ...
because you simply HAVE TO. You have no choice at all, your mindset forces you
to say everything you say forever.
Must be some sociopathetical obsession and disease.
Post by M forever
But you aren't. You are waffling like a 14-year
old. Like a 14-year old who can't even read music. But you think you
get it all, know it all. You don't, you don't even begin to understand
music. You hear some very superficial similarities between two themes,
but you don't understand how the material is different, and how the
development is different.
The sad thing is that you seem to enjoy listening to music a lot. But
a lot of it is not accessible to your extremely small and closed mind.
You could actually learn to appreciate and enjoy music much more if
you didn't think you already know and understand everything. I learned
a lot from listening to and thinking about what people who know more
about music than I do have to say.
Right. YOU are the perfect guy. Only you!
Post by M forever
You deflect everything that people
offer to you in the way of explanations, because it is just too hard
for you to accept that there are many layers there that you don't even
know are there. That's so pitiful.
Another one of Gerard's countless incarnations. Isn't it amazing how
this guy changes his identity all the time, just so he can escape the
many, many killfiles he is in and continue commenting on everything
and anything, even though he knows that most people ignore him?
So this identity goes into the killfile, too - I already have more
than a dozen different "Gerards" in there.
wagnerfan
2011-09-25 18:11:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by M forever
Post by Peter Vandermeulen
Post by M forever
Post by William Sommerwerck
Post by William Sommerwerck
Well... The "evil Empire" theme from "Star Wars" sounds much too
much like "Mars". Holst's estate apparently was on the verge of
suing. No, it doesn't.
Yes, it does.
No, it doesn't, and I explained why.
Post by William Sommerwerck
Post by William Sommerwerck
The only similarity is that there is a signal-like
theme in Mars which begins with a three repeated notes, like
Williams' Imperial March. And that's where the similarities end.
What Williams does from there, and how he develops the material
is completely different. That shows once again what an extremely
superficial listener you are. Of course there is no basis for a
law suit there. A lot of musical material has fleeting
resemblance to other material. Most of Holst's material in
Planets itself is derived from other compositions. But in a very
inventive way. Just like Williams' Star Wars.
If it quacks like a duck... it's a duck.
When it comes to music, you are someone who can't tell a duck apart
from an ostrich, and that shows in statements like this.
Only because a theme has two or three notes or some other basic
features in common that doesn't mean it's "lifted". Many musical
themes which express certain ideas or which have a certain character
share some common features. That should be obvious. Both themes are of
the very basic "fanfare", "signal", "march" kind of theme which can be
found in countless compositions somehow referring to war or
militarism. Holst didn't "invent" that basic musical gesture either.
Post by William Sommerwerck
When I first heard the music -- more than 30 years ago -- my initial
reaction was "Oh, no...". I'm sure most of the people in this group
had a similar reaction.
My reaction was, what a great theme, and how much potential for
development in those inverted chords. And how much Williams makes out
of it. That's because I can see beyond the very superficial
similarities of musical elements, and you you can't. You can only pick
up the most superficial layer of music, but you don't understand how
composition works.
That's also why you don't pick up any of the many fine nuances in the
music of many composers you summarily dismissed here.
Sorry but I just have to say this again: you really are a complete
idiot when it comes to music, but you think you are so incredibly
perceptive and smart.
RIGHT!
You HAVE TO say so again!
And again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again
and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again
and again and again and again and again and again and again
forever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever
and ever and ever ...
because you simply HAVE TO. You have no choice at all, your mindset forces you
to say everything you say forever.
Must be some sociopathetical obsession and disease.
Post by M forever
But you aren't. You are waffling like a 14-year
old. Like a 14-year old who can't even read music. But you think you
get it all, know it all. You don't, you don't even begin to understand
music. You hear some very superficial similarities between two themes,
but you don't understand how the material is different, and how the
development is different.
The sad thing is that you seem to enjoy listening to music a lot. But
a lot of it is not accessible to your extremely small and closed mind.
You could actually learn to appreciate and enjoy music much more if
you didn't think you already know and understand everything. I learned
a lot from listening to and thinking about what people who know more
about music than I do have to say.
Right. YOU are the perfect guy. Only you!
Post by M forever
You deflect everything that people
offer to you in the way of explanations, because it is just too hard
for you to accept that there are many layers there that you don't even
know are there. That's so pitiful.
Another one of Gerard's countless incarnations. Isn't it amazing how
this guy changes his identity all the time, just so he can escape the
many, many killfiles he is in and continue commenting on everything
and anything, even though he knows that most people ignore him?
So this identity goes into the killfile, too - I already have more
than a dozen different "Gerards" in there.
Absolutely pathetic that this loser is so starved for attention that
he can't stand the idea of a dozen or so faceless posters about whom
he knows nothing ignoring him.One of the the lamest thing I ever
heard. Sad. Wagner fan
Gerard
2011-09-25 19:11:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by wagnerfan
Absolutely pathetic that this loser is so starved for attention that
he can't stand the idea of a dozen or so faceless posters about whom
he knows nothing ignoring him.One of the the lamest thing I ever
heard. Sad. Wagner fan
Have you never read Misery forever's posts?
pianomaven
2011-09-30 21:24:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gerard
Post by wagnerfan
Absolutely pathetic that this loser is so starved for attention that
he can't stand the idea of a dozen or so faceless posters about whom
he knows nothing  ignoring him.One of the  the lamest thing I ever
heard.   Sad.   Wagner fan
Have you never read Misery forever's posts?
He rereads them every night before going to bed.

TD
Matthew B. Tepper
2011-09-26 02:45:16 UTC
Permalink
Absolutely pathetic that this loser is so starved for attention that he
can't stand the idea of a dozen or so faceless posters about whom he knows
nothing ignoring him. One of the lamest things I ever heard. Sad.
Wagner fan
That's bad enough, but his pretending to be Eltjo Meijer is lower than low.
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!!
"I don’t think right-wing social engineering is any more desirable
than left-wing social engineering. I don’t think imposing radical
change from the right or the left is a very good way for a free
society to operate. I think we need a national conversation to get
to a better Medicare system with more choices for seniors." Former
Speaker of the House Newt Gingrich on "Meet the Press" 15 May 2011
Opinions expressed here are not necessarily those of my employers.
Gerard
2011-09-30 21:00:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Matthew B. Tepper
Post by wagnerfan
Absolutely pathetic that this loser is so starved for attention
that he can't stand the idea of a dozen or so faceless posters
about whom he knows nothing ignoring him. One of the lamest things
I ever heard. Sad.
Wagner fan
That's bad enough, but his pretending to be Eltjo Meijer is lower than low.
You're still the same liar.
pianomaven
2011-09-30 21:24:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gerard
Post by Matthew B. Tepper
Post by wagnerfan
Absolutely pathetic that this loser is so starved for attention
that he can't stand the idea of a dozen or so faceless posters
about whom he knows nothing ignoring him. One of the lamest things
I ever heard.  Sad.
Wagner fan
That's bad enough, but his pretending to be Eltjo Meijer is lower than low.
You're still the same liar.
Quelle surprise!

TD
EM
2011-09-30 22:09:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by pianomaven
Post by Gerard
You're still the same liar.
Quelle surprise!
Are you guys writing a libretto together?

EM
wagnerfan
2011-10-01 00:36:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by EM
Post by pianomaven
Post by Gerard
You're still the same liar.
Quelle surprise!
Are you guys writing a libretto together?
EM
Poor Leakin' - still holds grudges - and with so little time
left!!!!! Wagner fan
pianomaven
2011-10-01 01:01:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by EM
Post by pianomaven
Post by Gerard
You're still the same liar.
Quelle surprise!
Are you guys writing a libretto together?
EM
 Poor Leakin' - still holds grudges - and with so little time
left!!!!!
Dickey's word ain't worth shit!

TD
Gerard
2011-10-01 08:35:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by EM
Post by pianomaven
Post by Gerard
You're still the same liar.
Quelle surprise!
Are you guys writing a libretto together?
EM
You're not far from that liar.
Because it's soooo easy to you to say that Tepper's "pretending to be Eltjo
Meijer" is a lie.
And it is so easy because you know very well that it is a lie.
pianomaven
2011-09-30 21:23:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by wagnerfan
Post by M forever
Post by Peter Vandermeulen
Post by M forever
Post by William Sommerwerck
Post by William Sommerwerck
Well... The "evil Empire" theme from "Star Wars" sounds much too
much like "Mars". Holst's estate apparently was on the verge of
suing. No, it doesn't.
Yes, it does.
No, it doesn't, and I explained why.
Post by William Sommerwerck
Post by William Sommerwerck
The only similarity is that there is a signal-like
theme in Mars which begins with a three repeated notes, like
Williams' Imperial March. And that's where the similarities end.
What Williams does from there, and how he develops the material
is completely different. That shows once again what an extremely
superficial listener you are. Of course there is no basis for a
law suit there. A lot of musical material has fleeting
resemblance to other material. Most of Holst's material in
Planets itself is derived from other compositions. But in a very
inventive way. Just like Williams' Star Wars.
If it quacks like a duck... it's a duck.
When it comes to music, you are someone who can't tell a duck apart
from an ostrich, and that shows in statements like this.
Only because a theme has two or three notes or some other basic
features in common that doesn't mean it's "lifted". Many musical
themes which express certain ideas or which have a certain character
share some common features. That should be obvious. Both themes are of
the very basic "fanfare", "signal", "march" kind of theme which can be
found in countless compositions somehow referring to war or
militarism. Holst didn't "invent" that basic musical gesture either.
Post by William Sommerwerck
When I first heard the music -- more than 30 years ago -- my initial
reaction was "Oh, no...". I'm sure most of the people in this group
had a similar reaction.
My reaction was, what a great theme, and how much potential for
development in those inverted chords. And how much Williams makes out
of it. That's because I can see beyond the very superficial
similarities of musical elements, and you you can't. You can only pick
up the most superficial layer of music, but you don't understand how
composition works.
That's also why you don't pick up any of the many fine nuances in the
music of many composers you summarily dismissed here.
Sorry but I just have to say this again: you really are a complete
idiot when it comes to music, but you think you are so incredibly
perceptive and smart.
RIGHT!
You HAVE TO say so again!
And again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again
and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again
and again and again and again and again and again and again
forever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever
and ever and ever ...
because you simply HAVE TO. You have no choice at all, your mindset forces you
to say everything you say forever.
Must be some sociopathetical obsession and disease.
Post by M forever
But you aren't. You are waffling like a 14-year
old. Like a 14-year old who can't even read music. But you think you
get it all, know it all. You don't, you don't even begin to understand
music. You hear some very superficial similarities between two themes,
but you don't understand how the material is different, and how the
development is different.
The sad thing is that you seem to enjoy listening to music a lot. But
a lot of it is not accessible to your extremely small and closed mind.
You could actually learn to appreciate and enjoy music much more if
you didn't think you already know and understand everything. I learned
a lot from listening to and thinking about what people who know more
about music than I do have to say.
Right. YOU are the perfect guy. Only you!
Post by M forever
You deflect everything that people
offer to you in the way of explanations, because it is just too hard
for you to accept that there are many layers there that you don't even
know are there. That's so pitiful.
Another one of Gerard's countless incarnations. Isn't it amazing how
this guy changes his identity all the time, just so he can escape the
many, many killfiles he is in and continue commenting on everything
and anything, even though he knows that most people ignore him?
So this identity goes into the killfile, too - I already have more
than a dozen different "Gerards" in there.
Absolutely pathetic that this loser is so starved for attention that
he can't stand the idea of a dozen or so faceless posters about whom
he knows nothing  ignoring him.One of the  the lamest thing I ever
heard.   Sad.
What is sad is that you have clearly broken your so-called truce with
Gerard. Remember that? You know, where you were supposed not to trash
each other?

Well, that was then, this is now. And little Dickey has revealed that
he either doesn't remember - getting senile? - or has decided to put
his cards with others who argue with Gerard. You know, the power elite
like Tepper. (Did you wish him a Happy Birthday, cumrag? Well no
matter. Lick his ass. Do it again, why don't you?)

Dickey's word isn't worth shit!

TD
Gerard
2011-10-01 08:43:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by pianomaven
On Sun, 25 Sep 2011 10:10:53 -0700 (PDT), M forever
Post by M forever
Post by Peter Vandermeulen
On Sep 24, 5:26 pm, "William Sommerwerck"
Post by William Sommerwerck
Post by William Sommerwerck
Well... The "evil Empire" theme from "Star Wars" sounds
much too much like "Mars". Holst's estate apparently was
on the verge of suing. No, it doesn't.
Yes, it does.
No, it doesn't, and I explained why.
Post by William Sommerwerck
Post by William Sommerwerck
The only similarity is that there is a signal-like
theme in Mars which begins with a three repeated notes,
like Williams' Imperial March. And that's where the
similarities end. What Williams does from there, and how
he develops the material is completely different. That
shows once again what an extremely superficial listener
you are. Of course there is no basis for a law suit
there. A lot of musical material has fleeting resemblance
to other material. Most of Holst's material in Planets
itself is derived from other compositions. But in a very
inventive way. Just like Williams' Star Wars.
If it quacks like a duck... it's a duck.
When it comes to music, you are someone who can't tell a duck
apart from an ostrich, and that shows in statements like this.
Only because a theme has two or three notes or some other
basic features in common that doesn't mean it's "lifted".
Many musical themes which express certain ideas or which have
a certain character share some common features. That should
be obvious. Both themes are of the very basic "fanfare",
"signal", "march" kind of theme which can be found in
countless compositions somehow referring to war or
militarism. Holst didn't "invent" that basic musical gesture either.
Post by William Sommerwerck
When I first heard the music -- more than 30 years ago --
my initial reaction was "Oh, no...". I'm sure most of the
people in this group had a similar reaction.
My reaction was, what a great theme, and how much potential
for development in those inverted chords. And how much
Williams makes out of it. That's because I can see beyond the
very superficial similarities of musical elements, and you
you can't. You can only pick up the most superficial layer of
music, but you don't understand how composition works.
That's also why you don't pick up any of the many fine
nuances in the music of many composers you summarily
dismissed here.
Sorry but I just have to say this again: you really are a
complete idiot when it comes to music, but you think you are
so incredibly perceptive and smart.
RIGHT!
You HAVE TO say so again!
And again and again and again and again and again and again and
again and again and again and again and again and again and
again and again and again and again and again and again and
again and again and again and again
forever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever
and ever and ever and ever and ever ...
because you simply HAVE TO. You have no choice at all, your
mindset forces you to say everything you say forever.
Must be some sociopathetical obsession and disease.
But you aren't. You are waffling like a 14-year
old. Like a 14-year old who can't even read music. But you
think you get it all, know it all. You don't, you don't even
begin to understand music. You hear some very superficial
similarities between two themes, but you don't understand how
the material is different, and how the development is
different.
The sad thing is that you seem to enjoy listening to music a
lot. But a lot of it is not accessible to your extremely
small and closed mind. You could actually learn to appreciate
and enjoy music much more if you didn't think you already
know and understand everything. I learned a lot from
listening to and thinking about what people who know more
about music than I do have to say.
Right. YOU are the perfect guy. Only you!
You deflect everything that people
offer to you in the way of explanations, because it is just
too hard for you to accept that there are many layers there
that you don't even know are there. That's so pitiful.
Another one of Gerard's countless incarnations. Isn't it amazing
how this guy changes his identity all the time, just so he can
escape the many, many killfiles he is in and continue commenting
on everything and anything, even though he knows that most people
ignore him?
So this identity goes into the killfile, too - I already have more
than a dozen different "Gerards" in there.
Absolutely pathetic that this loser is so starved for attention that
he can't stand the idea of a dozen or so faceless posters about whom
he knows nothing ignoring him.One of the the lamest thing I ever
heard. Sad.
What is sad is that you have clearly broken your so-called truce with
Gerard. Remember that? You know, where you were supposed not to trash
each other?
Well, that was then, this is now. And little Dickey has revealed that
he either doesn't remember - getting senile? - or has decided to put
his cards with others who argue with Gerard. You know, the power elite
like Tepper. (Did you wish him a Happy Birthday, cumrag? Well no
matter. Lick his ass. Do it again, why don't you?)
Dickey's word isn't worth shit!
TD
There must be an expression for it:
announcing that you ignore someone by using a "kill file", but never stopping
commenting on that person.
Several 'people' here do so (wagnerfan in all his posts, Allen, Tepper of
course).

Thornhill
2011-09-20 00:50:50 UTC
Permalink
On Sep 19, 12:24 pm, Christopher Webber
Post by Christopher Webber
Post by Thornhill
It's homage when it's a few bars. It's rip-off when you just re-use
someone else's music and take credit for it, such as the "Gladiator"
soundtrack giving Holst zero credit (and Holst's estate sued over it).
Surely "homage" needs a consciousness in a body of listeners (and a
little smile of recognition) if it's to be taken that way. I don't
imagine that many people 'heard' either of the originals cited
(Stravinsky and Herrmann) when they were watching Star Wars.
"Psycho" was incredibly popular film with one of the most famous
scores; film buffs would recognize the cue (and the cue is very
short). Further, Williams had a Hitchcock-Herrman connection -- he had
recently wrote the music to "Family Plot."

I don't think Williams' brief quote of the "Rite of Spring" is any
different than Mahler quoting "Meistersinger" in his 7th Symphony.
Matthew B. Tepper
2011-09-20 04:23:04 UTC
Permalink
Thornhill <***@gmail.com> appears to have caused the following letters
to be typed in news:385303ac-9ddb-4c62-9e70-f2ba46880236
Post by Thornhill
I don't think Williams' brief quote of the "Rite of Spring" is any
different than Mahler quoting "Meistersinger" in his 7th Symphony.
My favorite use of "Meistersinger" in a quote is rather different: "Never be
clever for the sake of being clever, for the sake of showing off!"
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!!
"I don’t think right-wing social engineering is any more desirable
than left-wing social engineering. I don’t think imposing radical
change from the right or the left is a very good way for a free
society to operate. I think we need a national conversation to get
to a better Medicare system with more choices for seniors." Former
Speaker of the House Newt Gingrich on "Meet the Press" 15 May 2011
Opinions expressed here are not necessarily those of my employers.
William Sommerwerck
2011-09-24 14:57:19 UTC
Permalink
My favorite use of "Meistersinger" in a quote is rather different: "Never
be clever for the sake of being clever, for the sake of showing off!"
So... You want to write a fugue?

I am so old I remember the cardboard original...
Matthew B. Tepper
2011-09-24 15:38:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by William Sommerwerck
My favorite use of "Meistersinger" in a quote is rather different: "Never
be clever for the sake of being clever, for the sake of showing off!"
So... You want to write a fugue?
I am so old I remember the cardboard original...
As do I! Also the cardboard Soundsheet of "Si, mi chiamano Mimi" from the
Schippers recording, with Freni and (singing one word) Gedda. That was my
first exposure to Puccini, since that was long before the days when you would
always hear "O mio babbino caro" in spaghetti sauce commercials.
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!!
"I don’t think right-wing social engineering is any more desirable
than left-wing social engineering. I don’t think imposing radical
change from the right or the left is a very good way for a free
society to operate. I think we need a national conversation to get
to a better Medicare system with more choices for seniors." Former
Speaker of the House Newt Gingrich on "Meet the Press" 15 May 2011
Opinions expressed here are not necessarily those of my employers.
William Sommerwerck
2011-09-24 16:32:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Matthew B. Tepper
Post by William Sommerwerck
My favorite use of "Meistersinger" in a quote is rather different: "Never
be clever for the sake of being clever, for the sake of showing off!"
So... You want to write a fugue?
I am so old I remember the cardboard original...
As do I! Also the cardboard Soundsheet of "Si, mi chiamano Mimi" from the
Schippers recording, with Freni and (singing one word) Gedda. That was my
first exposure to Puccini, since that was long before the days when you would
always hear "O mio babbino caro" in spaghetti sauce commercials.
Ditto. The Gould was the first recording ever included in a post-War music
magazine (I'm pretty sure), while the Freni was the first in stereo.
Incredibly noisy.
William Sommerwerck
2011-09-24 14:55:58 UTC
Permalink
"Thornhill" <***@gmail.com> wrote in message news:385303ac-9ddb-4c62-9e70-***@et6g2000vbb.googlegroups.com...
On Sep 19, 12:24 pm, Christopher Webber
Post by Thornhill
"Psycho" was incredibly popular film with one of the most famous
scores; film buffs would recognize the cue (and the cue is very
short). Further, Williams had a Hitchcock-Herrman connection -- he had
recently wrote the music to "Family Plot."
But -- as interesting as the discussion of perceived rip-offs is -- I still
haven't heard any suggestions as to why Williams quoted that particular
theme at that particular point. I don't get the connection.
M forever
2011-09-24 21:25:26 UTC
Permalink
On Sep 24, 10:55 am, "William Sommerwerck"
Post by William Sommerwerck
On Sep 19, 12:24 pm, Christopher Webber
Post by Thornhill
"Psycho" was incredibly popular film with one of the most famous
scores; film buffs would recognize the cue (and the cue is very
short). Further, Williams had a Hitchcock-Herrman connection -- he had
recently wrote the music to "Family Plot."
But -- as interesting as the discussion of perceived rip-offs is -- I still
haven't heard any suggestions as to why Williams quoted that particular
theme at that particular point. I don't get the connection.
Are you talking about the three opening notes of this?


William Sommerwerck
2011-09-25 01:19:33 UTC
Permalink
"M forever" <***@gmail.com> wrote in message news:cb03d2c0-41c7-4e84-9015-***@d18g2000yql.googlegroups.com...
On Sep 24, 10:55 am, "William Sommerwerck"
Post by William Sommerwerck
On Sep 19, 12:24 pm, Christopher Webber
Post by William Sommerwerck
Post by Thornhill
"Psycho" was incredibly popular film with one of the most famous
scores; film buffs would recognize the cue (and the cue is very
short). Further, Williams had a Hitchcock-Herrman connection -- he had
recently wrote the music to "Family Plot."
But -- as interesting as the discussion of perceived rip-offs is -- I still
haven't heard any suggestions as to why Williams quoted that particular
theme at that particular point. I don't get the connection.
Are you talking about the three opening notes of this?
http://youtu.be/YVGxhEzAKi4

Yes. Of course. What is the connection with the "Star Wars" scene?
M forever
2011-09-25 01:22:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by William Sommerwerck
On Sep 24, 10:55 am, "William Sommerwerck"
Post by William Sommerwerck
On Sep 19, 12:24 pm, Christopher Webber
Post by William Sommerwerck
Post by Thornhill
"Psycho" was incredibly popular film with one of the most famous
scores; film buffs would recognize the cue (and the cue is very
short). Further, Williams had a Hitchcock-Herrman connection -- he had
recently wrote the music to "Family Plot."
But -- as interesting as the discussion of perceived rip-offs is -- I
still
Post by William Sommerwerck
Post by William Sommerwerck
haven't heard any suggestions as to why Williams quoted that particular
theme at that particular point. I don't get the connection.
Are you talking about the three opening notes of this?
http://youtu.be/YVGxhEzAKi4
Yes. Of course. What is the connection with the "Star Wars" scene?
This one (at 8:00)?


William Sommerwerck
2011-09-25 02:34:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by M forever
Post by M forever
Post by William Sommerwerck
But -- as interesting as the discussion of perceived rip-offs is -- I
still
Post by M forever
Post by William Sommerwerck
haven't heard any suggestions as to why Williams quoted that particular
theme at that particular point. I don't get the connection.
Are you talking about the three opening notes of this?
http://youtu.be/YVGxhEzAKi4
Yes. Of course. What is the connection with the "Star Wars" scene?
This one (at 8:00)?

http://youtu.be/IljNkPrJ-rQ

Duh.
M forever
2011-09-25 02:43:29 UTC
Permalink
On Sep 24, 10:34 pm, "William Sommerwerck"
Post by M forever
Post by M forever
Post by M forever
Post by William Sommerwerck
But -- as interesting as the discussion of perceived rip-offs is -- I
still
Post by M forever
Post by William Sommerwerck
haven't heard any suggestions as to why Williams quoted that particular
theme at that particular point. I don't get the connection.
Are you talking about the three opening notes of this?
http://youtu.be/YVGxhEzAKi4
Yes. Of course. What is the connection with the "Star Wars" scene?
This one (at 8:00)?
http://youtu.be/IljNkPrJ-rQ
Duh.
That's the same three-note motif - not really a theme -, just
transposed up one full step. Duh! So what's the question?
M forever
2011-09-19 16:37:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Thornhill
Post by Christopher Webber
Post by Thornhill
paying homage
Is that a polite way of saying "ripping off"?? A Star Wars film is
hardly the place for Homages...
--
Christopher Webber, London, UKhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christopher_Webber
ZARZUELA.NET
Uh, no.
It's homage when it's a few bars. It's rip-off when you just re-use
someone else's music and take credit for it, such as the "Gladiator"
soundtrack giving Holst zero credit (and Holst's estate sued over it).
Which part of the Gladiator soundtrack was that?
Mark S
2011-09-19 16:46:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by M forever
Post by Thornhill
Post by Christopher Webber
Post by Thornhill
paying homage
Is that a polite way of saying "ripping off"?? A Star Wars film is
hardly the place for Homages...
--
Christopher Webber, London, UKhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christopher_Webber
ZARZUELA.NET
Uh, no.
It's homage when it's a few bars. It's rip-off when you just re-use
someone else's music and take credit for it, such as the "Gladiator"
soundtrack giving Holst zero credit (and Holst's estate sued over it).
Which part of the Gladiator soundtrack was that?
IIRC, the opening battle scene sounds an awful lot like "Mars" from
the Planets.
M forever
2011-09-19 18:32:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mark S
Post by M forever
Post by Thornhill
Post by Christopher Webber
Post by Thornhill
paying homage
Is that a polite way of saying "ripping off"?? A Star Wars film is
hardly the place for Homages...
--
Christopher Webber, London, UKhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christopher_Webber
ZARZUELA.NET
Uh, no.
It's homage when it's a few bars. It's rip-off when you just re-use
someone else's music and take credit for it, such as the "Gladiator"
soundtrack giving Holst zero credit (and Holst's estate sued over it).
Which part of the Gladiator soundtrack was that?
IIRC, the opening battle scene sounds an awful lot like "Mars" from
the Planets.
True, I remember a little better now, but I don't see a direct ripoff
there, obviously Zimmer copied the style, but did he copy the actual
music? I just looked at a clip on Youtube, and yes, those mounting
brass chords, the march-like underpinning, those do sound rather
similar - but then the idea to associate march rhythms and brass
chords with "war" wasn't exactly Holst's either. "The Planets" in
itself contains a lot of stylistic copying or quoting or paying homage
to, whatever one may want to call that, in a rather creative way
though, which is why I think it's a real masterpiece of composition. I
am confused about the whole copyright issue here though. I thought
copyright expired after 50 years? Or was that only for recordings?
What about compositions? I thought at one point that I had read
somewhere that copyright for compositions only expires 70 years after
the composer's death, but I am not sure IIRC. So what is the situation
here?
M forever
2011-09-19 16:21:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Christopher Webber
Post by Thornhill
paying homage
Is that a polite way of saying "ripping off"?? A Star Wars film is
hardly the place for Homages...
Quoting a few notes, a musical idea, a gesture, making a stylistic
reference is not "ripping off" something. Almost everything quotes or
echoes something that was there before.

Star Wars is a great place for such stylistic homages because that's
what the whole film is about. It's one big homage to classic cinema,
not just in the music, but in almost every single one of its elements,
in its content and technique, down to such basic techniques as the
swipe dissolves between scenes which is one of the earliest editing
techniques when editors used to literally split strips of film
diagonally and then glue the end of one scene to the beginning of the
next to create that effect. That's what gives it that mythological
quality, that feeling of deeper familiarity even though what we are
seeing on the surface is a completely alien world.

The scene Sommerwerck is talking about is another such example. It is
a direct quote from Kurosawa's "Sanjuro" which includes just such a
scene where the protagonists hide under the floorboards of a temple
and pop up once the patrolling guards are out of sight around the
corner.
William Sommerwerck
2011-09-24 15:01:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by M forever
Quoting a few notes, a musical idea, a gesture, making a stylistic
reference is not "ripping off" something. Almost everything quotes or
echoes something that was there before.
Star Wars is a great place for such stylistic homages because that's
what the whole film is about. It's one big homage to classic cinema,
not just in the music, but in almost every single one of its elements,
in its content and technique, down to such basic techniques as the
swipe dissolves between scenes which is one of the earliest editing
techniques when editors used to literally split strips of film
diagonally and then glue the end of one scene to the beginning of the
next to create that effect. That's what gives it that mythological
quality, that feeling of deeper familiarity even though what we are
seeing on the surface is a completely alien world.
The scene Sommerwerck is talking about is another such example. It is
a direct quote from Kurosawa's "Sanjuro" which includes just such a
scene where the protagonists hide under the floorboards of a temple
and pop up once the patrolling guards are out of sight around the
corner.
Ack! We're agreeing on things.

"Star Wars" was, in part, an homage to / send-up of Saturday-matinee
serials. (Note, for example, the episode titles.) It also borrows from "The
Hidden Fortress".

Again... What does the "psycho" theme have to do with what's going on at
that point?
Matthew B. Tepper
2011-09-19 14:40:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Thornhill
I think he's just paying homage to Herrman.
He does the same with the opening of the second part to the "Rite of
Spring" when 3PO is wondering through the desert.
I hear tributes to Walton in all those brass chords with sevenths and ninths.
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!!
"I don’t think right-wing social engineering is any more desirable
than left-wing social engineering. I don’t think imposing radical
change from the right or the left is a very good way for a free
society to operate. I think we need a national conversation to get
to a better Medicare system with more choices for seniors." Former
Speaker of the House Newt Gingrich on "Meet the Press" 15 May 2011
Opinions expressed here are not necessarily those of my employers.
William Sommerwerck
2011-09-24 15:02:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Matthew B. Tepper
I hear tributes to Walton in all those brass chords with sevenths and ninths.
And let's not forget the final scene, with its marvelous faux-Elgar.
Matthew B. Tepper
2011-09-24 15:38:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by William Sommerwerck
Post by Matthew B. Tepper
I hear tributes to Walton in all those brass chords with sevenths and ninths.
And let's not forget the final scene, with its marvelous faux-Elgar.
Indeed, but some might call that, ahem, circumstantial evidence.
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!!
"I don’t think right-wing social engineering is any more desirable
than left-wing social engineering. I don’t think imposing radical
change from the right or the left is a very good way for a free
society to operate. I think we need a national conversation to get
to a better Medicare system with more choices for seniors." Former
Speaker of the House Newt Gingrich on "Meet the Press" 15 May 2011
Opinions expressed here are not necessarily those of my employers.
William Sommerwerck
2011-09-24 16:34:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Matthew B. Tepper
Post by William Sommerwerck
Post by Matthew B. Tepper
I hear tributes to Walton in all those brass chords with sevenths and ninths.
And let's not forget the final scene, with its marvelous faux-Elgar.
Indeed, but some might call that, ahem, circumstantial evidence.
Well -- to my ears -- Williams is parodying Elgar, not copying him.

By the way, a "parody" is reuse of something -- not necessarily a comic or
satiric riff on it.
Matthew B. Tepper
2011-09-25 04:29:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by William Sommerwerck
Post by Matthew B. Tepper
Post by William Sommerwerck
Post by Matthew B. Tepper
I hear tributes to Walton in all those brass chords with sevenths and ninths.
And let's not forget the final scene, with its marvelous faux-Elgar.
Indeed, but some might call that, ahem, circumstantial evidence.
Well -- to my ears -- Williams is parodying Elgar, not copying him.
By the way, a "parody" is reuse of something -- not necessarily a comic
or satiric riff on it.
As in a "parody mass." Gosh, I learned that as an undergraduate. We were
also taught to begin trills on the lower note, however.
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!!
"I don’t think right-wing social engineering is any more desirable
than left-wing social engineering. I don’t think imposing radical
change from the right or the left is a very good way for a free
society to operate. I think we need a national conversation to get
to a better Medicare system with more choices for seniors." Former
Speaker of the House Newt Gingrich on "Meet the Press" 15 May 2011
Opinions expressed here are not necessarily those of my employers.
M forever
2011-09-19 16:43:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Thornhill
Post by William Sommerwerck
I just finished watching the first four "Star Wars" episodes, on Blu-ray. A
Certain Person will be happy to hear that I found Hayden Christiansen's
performance rather less bad the second time around -- though it still leaves
much to be desired.
In the scene in Episode IV when Ham Salad lifts the cover on the cargo bay
where he's been hiding, John Williams plays the "mad house" theme from
"Psycho". I've been wondering for 20 years what exactly Williams was getting
at -- if anything. I doubt it's an accident, because once you've heard those
three notes, you're not going to forget them.
Thoughts, anyone? Or is their use at this moment so utterly obvious that I
am exposing myself as a total musical idiot for not recognizing it?
It is unlikely I will respond before next Saturday morning.
--
"We already know the answers -- we just haven't asked the right
questions." -- Edwin Land
I think he's just paying homage to Herrman.
He does the same with the opening of the second part to the "Rite of
Spring" when 3PO is wondering through the desert.
Interesting observation. I only half-remember the music for that
scene, but what I remember seems to support what you say. That's
actually a fairly creative use of quoted material then because the
actual scene is so different. Night vs. blindingly bright desert. But
what the two have in common is that feeling of being in a strange
mysterious place. If that is what Williams intended, he chose well.
William Sommerwerck
2011-09-24 14:49:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Thornhill
I think he's just paying homage to Herrman.
He does the same with the opening of the second part to the "Rite
of Spring" when 3PO is wondering through the desert.
But the latter makes sense, in context. I don't understand the former.
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