Discussion:
Chopin Piano Concerto no. 2
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dk
2020-12-24 08:23:41 UTC
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Recommendations please? I have not
listened to this in a very long time.

TIA

dk
nk Tomm
2020-12-24 09:17:00 UTC
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My recommendations :

Pogorelich + Abbado
Zimerman + Giulini (Zimerman + Zimerman is funny and stupid)
Chris from Lafayette
2020-12-24 23:23:39 UTC
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Post by nk Tomm
Pogorelich + Abbado
Zimerman + Giulini (Zimerman + Zimerman is funny and stupid)
I don't wish to besmirch your recommendations of Pogorelich/Abbado and Zimerman/Giulini, but Zimerman/Zimerman is a unique, one-of-a-kind performance. It's really in its own category - when one hears it, it seems hard to know how Zimerman even achieved it, with the orchestra following SO precisely even the most subtle undulations of his rubato as piano soloist. In a way, it's miraculous. (Actually I do know how it was achieved: Zimerman's hand-picked orchestra not had plenty of rehearsal time to begin with, PLUS Zimerman and the orchestra went on an extended tour where they played only this concerto, just before they made the recording.) It's of course not the only way to do the concerto, but this level of control and unanimity certainly deserves more respect than being called "funny and stupid" just because some listener can't wrap his head around the unusual interpretation.
dk
2020-12-25 05:07:27 UTC
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Post by Chris from Lafayette
Post by nk Tomm
Pogorelich + Abbado
Zimerman + Giulini (Zimerman + Zimerman is funny and stupid)
I don't wish to besmirch your recommendations of Pogorelich/Abbado and
Zimerman/Giulini, but Zimerman/Zimerman is a unique, one-of-a-kind
performance. It's really in its own category - when one hears it, it seems
hard to know how Zimerman even achieved it, with the orchestra following
SO precisely even the most subtle undulations of his rubato as piano soloist.
In a way, it's miraculous. (Actually I do know how it was achieved: Zimerman's
hand-picked orchestra not had plenty of rehearsal time to begin with, PLUS
Zimerman and the orchestra went on an extended tour where they played
only this concerto, just before they made the recording.) It's of course not
the only way to do the concerto, but this level of control and unanimity
certainly deserves more respect than being called "funny and stupid"
just because some listener can't wrap his head around the unusual
interpretation.
is this it?


dk
dk
2020-12-25 05:38:56 UTC
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Post by dk
Post by Chris from Lafayette
Post by nk Tomm
Pogorelich + Abbado
Zimerman + Giulini (Zimerman + Zimerman is funny and stupid)
I don't wish to besmirch your recommendations of Pogorelich/Abbado and
Zimerman/Giulini, but Zimerman/Zimerman is a unique, one-of-a-kind
performance. It's really in its own category - when one hears it, it seems
hard to know how Zimerman even achieved it, with the orchestra following
SO precisely even the most subtle undulations of his rubato as piano soloist.
In a way, it's miraculous. (Actually I do know how it was achieved: Zimerman's
hand-picked orchestra not had plenty of rehearsal time to begin with, PLUS
Zimerman and the orchestra went on an extended tour where they played
only this concerto, just before they made the recording.) It's of course not
the only way to do the concerto, but this level of control and unanimity
certainly deserves more respect than being called "funny and stupid"
just because some listener can't wrap his head around the unusual
interpretation.
is this it? http://youtu.be/jTCol3eIF24
Just listened. Beyond ridiculous!

dk
Chris from Lafayette
2020-12-25 20:02:28 UTC
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Post by dk
Post by dk
. . . Zimerman/Zimerman is a unique, one-of-a-kind
performance. It's really in its own category. . .
is this it? http://youtu.be/jTCol3eIF24
Just listened. Beyond ridiculous!
dk
LOL! Eventually, with some quiet study and contemplation, you will no doubt come to appreciate Zimerman's achievement. ;-)
dk
2020-12-25 20:51:40 UTC
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Post by Chris from Lafayette
Post by dk
Post by dk
. . . Zimerman/Zimerman is a unique, one-of-a-kind
performance. It's really in its own category. . .
is this it? http://youtu.be/jTCol3eIF24
Just listened. Beyond ridiculous!
LOL! Eventually, with some quiet study and contemplation, you
will no doubt come to appreciate Zimerman's achievement. ;-)
Are you kidding? I heard Zimerman for the first time in 1975 at
the Chopin Competition. I never liked a single note he played.

He is nothing more than a craftsman who polishes every single
note without any overall view of the work. Everything he plays
sounds like a sequence of unrelated small episodes without
connection with one another. Every recording he produced
confirmed my initial impression. Look up the dictionary for
"kolter tuchas". ;-)

Playing the piano is (or should be) more than piano playing.

dk
MELMOTH
2020-12-25 23:15:12 UTC
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Post by dk
He is nothing more than a craftsman who polishes every single
note without any overall view of the work. Everything he plays
sounds like a sequence of unrelated small episodes without
connection with one another. Every recording he produced
confirmed my initial impression. Look up the dictionary for
"kolter tuchas". ;-)
All that is excessive is insignificant (Tayllerand)...
You should think about it, if you are able to...
dk
2020-12-25 23:19:25 UTC
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Post by MELMOTH
Post by dk
He is nothing more than a craftsman who polishes every single
note without any overall view of the work. Everything he plays
sounds like a sequence of unrelated small episodes without
connection with one another. Every recording he produced
confirmed my initial impression. Look up the dictionary for
"kolter tuchas". ;-)
All that is excessive is insignificant (Tayllerand)...
You should think about it, if you are able to...
Please advise Mr. Zimerman!
And do look up "kolter tuchas" in the dictionary!

dk
raymond....@gmail.com
2020-12-26 06:25:06 UTC
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Post by MELMOTH
Post by dk
He is nothing more than a craftsman who polishes every single
note without any overall view of the work. Everything he plays
sounds like a sequence of unrelated small episodes without
connection with one another. Every recording he produced
confirmed my initial impression. Look up the dictionary for
"kolter tuchas". ;-)
All that is excessive is insignificant (Tayllerand)...
You should think about it, if you are able to...
Every last ounce of Romantic blood has been sucked out the orchestral introduction. Cannot vouch for the piano playing, but I was curious even though this is not the type of music I listen to anymore. Mendelssohn's piano concerti are more enduring imho.

Ray Hall, Taree
dk
2020-12-26 08:48:42 UTC
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Post by ***@gmail.com
Post by MELMOTH
Post by dk
He is nothing more than a craftsman who polishes every single
note without any overall view of the work. Everything he plays
sounds like a sequence of unrelated small episodes without
connection with one another. Every recording he produced
confirmed my initial impression. Look up the dictionary for
"kolter tuchas". ;-)
All that is excessive is insignificant (Tayllerand)...
You should think about it, if you are able to...
Every last ounce of Romantic blood has been sucked out the orchestral
introduction. Cannot vouch for the piano playing, but I was curious even
though this is not the type of music I listen to anymore.
Sigh on every note, die on every phrase!

dk
Andy Evans
2020-12-26 12:09:34 UTC
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Malcuzynski/LSO/Susskind 1960

Malcuzynski/Philh/Kletzki 1946 quite good sound
http://youtu.be/Kd-M1qnGbg0

I've been doing some browsing on YT and so far the closest I get to what I'd want to hear in this is Malcuzynski. Argerich is tempting, will have to do some more listening. I was surprisingly disappointed in Cortot, Hofmann and Pogorelich. Nice pianism in places, of course, but the overall effect was less convincing. Pollini and Rubinstein have some recordings on YT which have their virtues, but I prefer Malcuzynski - more light and shade without compromising the overall flow.

Probably some I haven't heard, though I've dropped in on quite a few by now.
Andy Evans
2020-12-26 14:43:00 UTC
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More browsing on YT and ploughing through an ocean of recordings of this work has thrown up some more hopefuls....

Novaes/Szell ‘51

Ashkenazy Warsaw ’67 mono DG

Friere/RTF/Frank live

Cherkassky/RPO/Kempe

De Larrocha 1970

Gilels/Ormandy

JohnGavin
2020-12-26 16:00:55 UTC
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Post by Andy Evans
More browsing on YT and ploughing through an ocean of recordings of this work has thrown up some more hopefuls....
Novaes/Szell ‘51 http://youtu.be/190IZBokxTQ
Ashkenazy Warsaw ’67 mono DG http://youtu.be/Vso5-8ed5ZA
Friere/RTF/Frank live http://youtu.be/SZXdodWkYGM
Cherkassky/RPO/Kempe http://youtu.be/vlcKRCYGgSw
De Larrocha 1970 http://youtu.be/ZX2AnRoh6fU
Gilels/Ormandy http://youtu.be/wlIeElHPl2U
My own fav is listed above, and that’s the DeLarrocha / Commisiona - i’m not going to claim that this is the most stylish or idiomatic performance, but I love her sound, the fact that it has heart along with modesty and a sharp sense of rhythm. It never had me looking for a better version.
JohnGavin
2020-12-26 16:14:57 UTC
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Post by Andy Evans
More browsing on YT and ploughing through an ocean of recordings of this work has thrown up some more hopefuls....
Novaes/Szell ‘51 http://youtu.be/190IZBokxTQ
Ashkenazy Warsaw ’67 mono DG http://youtu.be/Vso5-8ed5ZA
Friere/RTF/Frank live http://youtu.be/SZXdodWkYGM
Cherkassky/RPO/Kempe http://youtu.be/vlcKRCYGgSw
De Larrocha 1970 http://youtu.be/ZX2AnRoh6fU
Gilels/Ormandy http://youtu.be/wlIeElHPl2U
My own fav is listed above, and that’s the DeLarrocha / Commisiona - i’m not going to claim that this is the most stylish or idiomatic performance, but I love her sound, the fact that it has heart along with modesty and a sharp sense of rhythm. It never had me looking for a better version.
One more thing – When the Zimerman/Zimerman recording was released, I went for it - while there are aspects of it that are very impressive, and his pianism is certainly admirable for its polish, meticulousness, and refinement, these performances are spoiled for me because of a feeling of self-conscious, somewhat calculated point-making. If there is a such thing as subtle zealousness (which seems like a contradiction) it is to be found here. Having said that, I intend to listen to his performances with Carlo-Maria Giulini Of which I have a feeling I will like much more.
John Fowler
2020-12-26 16:24:41 UTC
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Post by Andy Evans
More browsing on YT and ploughing through an ocean of recordings of this work has thrown up some more hopefuls....
Novaes/Szell ‘51 http://youtu.be/190IZBokxTQ
Ashkenazy Warsaw ’67 mono DG http://youtu.be/Vso5-8ed5ZA
Friere/RTF/Frank live http://youtu.be/SZXdodWkYGM
Cherkassky/RPO/Kempe http://youtu.be/vlcKRCYGgSw
De Larrocha 1970 http://youtu.be/ZX2AnRoh6fU
Gilels/Ormandy http://youtu.be/wlIeElHPl2U
My own fav is listed above, and that’s the DeLarrocha / Commisiona - i’m not going to claim that this is the most stylish or idiomatic performance, but I love her sound, the fact that it has heart along with modesty and a sharp sense of rhythm. It never had me looking for a better version.
Am I the only one who finds Chopin's Piano Concerti a bit of a bore?
The first movements are especially disappointmenting.
Both open with a suitably dramatic orchestral exposition, but once the piano comes in, the music descends to trivial note-spinning.
Things improve a bit for the slow movements, but only the finales strike me as totally satisying creations.
Alex Brown
2020-12-26 16:57:55 UTC
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Post by John Fowler
Post by Andy Evans
More browsing on YT and ploughing through an ocean of recordings of this work has thrown up some more hopefuls....
Novaes/Szell ‘51 http://youtu.be/190IZBokxTQ
Ashkenazy Warsaw ’67 mono DG http://youtu.be/Vso5-8ed5ZA
Friere/RTF/Frank live http://youtu.be/SZXdodWkYGM
Cherkassky/RPO/Kempe http://youtu.be/vlcKRCYGgSw
De Larrocha 1970 http://youtu.be/ZX2AnRoh6fU
Gilels/Ormandy http://youtu.be/wlIeElHPl2U
My own fav is listed above, and that’s the DeLarrocha / Commisiona - i’m not going to claim that this is the most stylish or idiomatic performance, but I love her sound, the fact that it has heart along with modesty and a sharp sense of rhythm. It never had me looking for a better version.
Am I the only one who finds Chopin's Piano Concerti a bit of a bore?
The first movements are especially disappointmenting.
Both open with a suitably dramatic orchestral exposition, but once the piano comes in, the music descends to trivial note-spinning.
Things improve a bit for the slow movements, but only the finales strike me as totally satisying creations.
you're not the only one.
--
- Alex Brown
Chris from Lafayette
2020-12-26 19:05:18 UTC
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Post by dk
Sigh on every note, die on every phrase!
dk
Dig it!
Chris from Lafayette
2020-12-26 19:03:48 UTC
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Post by ***@gmail.com
Mendelssohn's piano concerti are more enduring imho.
OMG! That is SO sick!

Mendelssohn, the little tyro - writing his his little piano concertos with their miniaturized "passion". Aren't you embarrassed to be a fan of such music? ;-)
Post by ***@gmail.com
Ray Hall, Taree
raymond....@gmail.com
2020-12-26 21:19:27 UTC
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Post by Chris from Lafayette
Post by ***@gmail.com
Mendelssohn's piano concerti are more enduring imho.
OMG! That is SO sick!
Mendelssohn, the little tyro - writing his his little piano concertos with their miniaturized "passion". Aren't you embarrassed to be a fan of such music? ;-)
Post by ***@gmail.com
Ray Hall, Taree
I simply much prefer them to the Chopin concerti, which bore me silly.

Ray Hall, Taree
Bob Harper
2020-12-26 23:59:35 UTC
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Post by ***@gmail.com
Post by Chris from Lafayette
Post by ***@gmail.com
Mendelssohn's piano concerti are more enduring imho.
OMG! That is SO sick!
Mendelssohn, the little tyro - writing his his little piano concertos with their miniaturized "passion". Aren't you embarrassed to be a fan of such music? ;-)
Post by ***@gmail.com
Ray Hall, Taree
I simply much prefer them to the Chopin concerti, which bore me silly.
Ray Hall, Taree
Ray, we don't agree about much, but I'm with you on this. Chopin wrote a
lot of great music, but the concerti aren't a part of it, or so it seems
to me.

Bob Harper
raymond....@gmail.com
2020-12-27 00:36:03 UTC
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Post by Bob Harper
Post by ***@gmail.com
Post by Chris from Lafayette
Post by ***@gmail.com
Mendelssohn's piano concerti are more enduring imho.
OMG! That is SO sick!
Mendelssohn, the little tyro - writing his his little piano concertos with their miniaturized "passion". Aren't you embarrassed to be a fan of such music? ;-)
Post by ***@gmail.com
Ray Hall, Taree
I simply much prefer them to the Chopin concerti, which bore me silly.
Ray Hall, Taree
Ray, we don't agree about much, but I'm with you on this. Chopin wrote a
lot of great music, but the concerti aren't a part of it, or so it seems
to me.
Bob Harper
Agree Bob, and even though I don't listen to much Chopin, or even this period of music that much, I will readily agree that his best music, by far, lies in his solo piano works. Of the period, however, Beethoven's concerti tower above all the others, who don't even get close. Imho.

Ray Hall, Taree
Bob Harper
2020-12-27 17:09:38 UTC
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Post by ***@gmail.com
Post by Bob Harper
Post by ***@gmail.com
Post by Chris from Lafayette
Post by ***@gmail.com
Mendelssohn's piano concerti are more enduring imho.
OMG! That is SO sick!
Mendelssohn, the little tyro - writing his his little piano concertos with their miniaturized "passion". Aren't you embarrassed to be a fan of such music? ;-)
Post by ***@gmail.com
Ray Hall, Taree
I simply much prefer them to the Chopin concerti, which bore me silly.
Ray Hall, Taree
Ray, we don't agree about much, but I'm with you on this. Chopin wrote a
lot of great music, but the concerti aren't a part of it, or so it seems
to me.
Bob Harper
Agree Bob, and even though I don't listen to much Chopin, or even this period of music that much, I will readily agree that his best music, by far, lies in his solo piano works. Of the period, however, Beethoven's concerti tower above all the others, who don't even get close. Imho.
Ray Hall, Taree
Last night on our local classical station (KQAC), the presenter played
recording by some of the artists who have died in the past year,
includinm the Fleisher/Szell recording of the Beethoven 4th Concerto.
You're right; Mozart is with him at the summit.

Bob Harper
Herman
2020-12-27 11:29:58 UTC
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Post by Bob Harper
Ray, we don't agree about much, but I'm with you on this. Chopin wrote a
lot of great music, but the concerti aren't a part of it, or so it seems
to me.
Bob Harper
Key is to hear the Chopin concertos just sporadically.

They're nice, but don't bear obsessive listening.
Frank Berger
2020-12-27 16:14:13 UTC
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Post by Herman
Post by Bob Harper
Ray, we don't agree about much, but I'm with you on this. Chopin wrote a
lot of great music, but the concerti aren't a part of it, or so it seems
to me.
Bob Harper
Key is to hear the Chopin concertos just sporadically.
They're nice, but don't bear obsessive listening.
I have in my notes that for #1 (talking about
Mendelssohn/Ormandy/Serkin) the booklet says it was recorded
in 1959 like #2, but Charm says it was 1957.
Owen
2020-12-28 00:56:32 UTC
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Post by Herman
Post by Bob Harper
Ray, we don't agree about much, but I'm with you on this. Chopin wrote a
lot of great music, but the concerti aren't a part of it, or so it seems
to me.
Bob Harper
Key is to hear the Chopin concertos just sporadically.
They're nice, but don't bear obsessive listening.
I think about once a decade is about right.

-Owen
Herman
2020-12-28 09:01:17 UTC
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Post by Owen
I think about once a decade is about right.
Or once every two years depending on one's tolerance. Anyway, for that purpose you don't need to collect and research which is the best, since the best way to hear these two pieces is just on a concert program, live, or on the radio, and be pleasantly surprised by the good moments.

It's really not worth it to obsessively look for the "best" performance ever.
JohnGavin
2020-12-28 10:36:55 UTC
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Post by Herman
Post by Owen
I think about once a decade is about right.
Or once every two years depending on one's tolerance. Anyway, for that purpose you don't need to collect and research which is the best, since the best way to hear these two pieces is just on a concert program, live, or on the radio, and be pleasantly surprised by the good moments.
It's really not worth it to obsessively look for the "best" performance ever.
All good points, and I’d like to expand on it. Sometimes it helps to be reminded of the obvious, which is that Chopin never conceived of the idea that his compositions would be recorded and listened to ad nauseum and examined under a microscope repeatedly. He probably thought that these concertos would be heard once or twice in a lifetime by those who could go to concerts in those days. Despite their shortcomings, particularly in the area of the use of the orchestra and the over prominence of the piano, they are successful to me is outpourings of the heart and soul of a young, great composer. The slow movements are the gems of these concertos in my opinion. The fact that they’ve never gone out of the performing repertoire should indicate their relative greatness.
Bob Harper
2020-12-28 18:02:15 UTC
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Post by Herman
Post by Owen
I think about once a decade is about right.
Or once every two years depending on one's tolerance. Anyway, for that purpose you don't need to collect and research which is the best, since the best way to hear these two pieces is just on a concert program, live, or on the radio, and be pleasantly surprised by the good moments.
It's really not worth it to obsessively look for the "best" performance ever.
A very sensible comment.

Bob Harper
Andy Evans
2020-12-28 18:49:31 UTC
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Chopin's concerti are pleasant enough, though not his greatest.

The fun is in comparing versions of them - it's more about "who's playing" than "what's being played". In fact it's endlessly fascinating to listen to how different musicians interpret the same work. Particularly when the work is very familiar and the surprises come from the performances themselves.
AB
2020-12-28 19:42:56 UTC
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Post by Andy Evans
Chopin's concerti are pleasant enough, though not his greatest.
The fun is in comparing versions of them - it's more about "who's playing" than "what's being played". In fact it's endlessly fascinating to listen to how different musicians interpret the same work. Particularly when the work is very familiar and the surprises come from the performances themselves.
yes, exactly I certainly agree with the above.
BTW- i don't believe that Hofmann was mentioned

AB
Frank Berger
2020-12-28 20:08:13 UTC
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Post by Andy Evans
Chopin's concerti are pleasant enough, though not his greatest.
The fun is in comparing versions of them - it's more about "who's playing" than "what's being played". In fact it's endlessly fascinating to listen to how different musicians interpret the same work. Particularly when the work is very familiar and the surprises come from the performances themselves.
Careful, you are about to labeled obsessive.
Frank Berger
2020-12-28 20:07:27 UTC
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Post by Bob Harper
Post by Herman
Post by Owen
I think about once a decade is about right.
Or once every two years depending on one's tolerance.
Anyway, for that purpose you don't need to collect and
research which is the best, since the best way to hear
these two pieces is just on a concert program, live, or on
the radio, and be pleasantly surprised by the good moments.
It's really not worth it to obsessively look for the
"best" performance ever.
A very sensible comment.
Bob Harper
Doing anything obsessively is indicative of mental illness.
I'm not comfortable with casually (obsessively?) labeling
someone else's interest in something as obsessive.
Ricardo Jimenez
2020-12-27 16:02:35 UTC
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On Sat, 26 Dec 2020 15:59:35 -0800, Bob Harper
Post by Bob Harper
Post by ***@gmail.com
Post by Chris from Lafayette
Post by ***@gmail.com
Mendelssohn's piano concerti are more enduring imho.
OMG! That is SO sick!
Mendelssohn, the little tyro - writing his his little piano concertos with their miniaturized "passion". Aren't you embarrassed to be a fan of such music? ;-)
Post by ***@gmail.com
Ray Hall, Taree
I simply much prefer them to the Chopin concerti, which bore me silly.
Ray Hall, Taree
Ray, we don't agree about much, but I'm with you on this. Chopin wrote a
lot of great music, but the concerti aren't a part of it, or so it seems
to me.
Bob Harper
I prefer the Hummel a minor and b minor concertos to those of Chopin
and Mendelssohn. Anybody here of the same opinion?
Chris from Lafayette
2020-12-27 18:36:48 UTC
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Post by Ricardo Jimenez
I prefer the Hummel a minor and b minor concertos to those of Chopin
and Mendelssohn. Anybody here of the same opinion?
Those are a couple of surprisingly excellent concertos for their "under the radar" status. Yes, I certainly prefer them to the Mendelssohn Concertos. Chopin Concertos, not so much.
r***@gmail.com
2020-12-26 23:59:51 UTC
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Post by Chris from Lafayette
Post by ***@gmail.com
Mendelssohn's piano concerti are more enduring imho.
OMG! That is SO sick!
Mendelssohn, the little tyro - writing his his little piano concertos with their miniaturized "passion". Aren't you embarrassed to be a fan of such music? ;-)
Post by ***@gmail.com
Ray Hall, Taree
Well I'm not embarrassed. Listen to them played by Rudolf Serkin with Ormandy on CBS, and see if you find them embarrassing.
Frank Berger
2020-12-27 01:00:51 UTC
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Post by r***@gmail.com
Post by Chris from Lafayette
Post by ***@gmail.com
Mendelssohn's piano concerti are more enduring imho.
OMG! That is SO sick!
Mendelssohn, the little tyro - writing his his little piano concertos with their miniaturized "passion". Aren't you embarrassed to be a fan of such music? ;-)
Post by ***@gmail.com
Ray Hall, Taree
Well I'm not embarrassed. Listen to them played by Rudolf Serkin with Ormandy on CBS, and see if you find them embarrassing.
I couldn't find reference to such a recording on Amazon,
Ebay, ARKIVCD, or DISCOGS. What am I missing. I did see
Ormandy and Rubinstein for #2 from 1968.
Gerard
2020-12-27 10:34:14 UTC
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On Friday, December 25, 2020 at 10:25:08 PM UTC-8,
Post by ***@gmail.com
Mendelssohn's piano concerti are more enduring imho.
OMG! That is SO sick!
Mendelssohn, the little tyro - writing his his little piano concertos
with their miniaturized "passion". Aren't you embarrassed to be a fan
of such music? ;-)
Post by ***@gmail.com
Ray Hall, Taree
Well I'm not embarrassed.  Listen to them played by Rudolf Serkin with
Ormandy on CBS, and see if you find them embarrassing.
I couldn't find reference to such a recording on Amazon, Ebay, ARKIVCD,
or DISCOGS.  What am I missing.  I did see Ormandy and Rubinstein for #2
from 1968.
This one maybe?
https://www.amazon.com/Mendelssohn-Concertos-Concerto-Essential-Classics/dp/B0000027AX/
Frank Berger
2020-12-27 16:02:23 UTC
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Post by Gerard
Post by Frank Berger
On Saturday, December 26, 2020 at 3:03:51 PM UTC-4, Chris
On Friday, December 25, 2020 at 10:25:08 PM UTC-8,
Post by ***@gmail.com
Mendelssohn's piano concerti are more enduring imho.
OMG! That is SO sick!
Mendelssohn, the little tyro - writing his his little
piano concertos with their miniaturized "passion".
Aren't you embarrassed to be a fan of such music? ;-)
Post by ***@gmail.com
Ray Hall, Taree
Well I'm not embarrassed.  Listen to them played by
Rudolf Serkin with Ormandy on CBS, and see if you find
them embarrassing.
I couldn't find reference to such a recording on Amazon,
Ebay, ARKIVCD, or DISCOGS.  What am I missing.  I did see
Ormandy and Rubinstein for #2 from 1968.
This one maybe?
https://www.amazon.com/Mendelssohn-Concertos-Concerto-Essential-Classics/dp/B0000027AX/
You're right. I didn't notice the topic switch from Chopin
to Mendelssohn.
Chris from Lafayette
2020-12-27 18:33:20 UTC
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Post by Chris from Lafayette
Post by ***@gmail.com
Mendelssohn's piano concerti are more enduring imho.
OMG! That is SO sick!
Mendelssohn, the little tyro - writing his his little piano concertos with their miniaturized "passion". Aren't you embarrassed to be a fan of such music? ;-)
Post by ***@gmail.com
Ray Hall, Taree
Well I'm not embarrassed. Listen to them played by Rudolf Serkin with Ormandy on CBS, and see if you find them embarrassing.
That Mendelssohn G-minor Concerto is like a little toddler who's somehow been frustrated, and he punches out in all directions to no avail! A perfect example of powerless sound and fury signifying nothing! (Don't get me wrong though, there's a lot of Mendelssohn's music that IS worthwhile - even the two-piano concertos, where at least the composer's reach does not exceed his grasp!) As for Serkin/Ormandy, so what? I've known that recording ever since it first came out - tell me what makes it so great. To me, that's not even the best recording of the piece - it's simply been around for a long time and has become the knee-jerk choice for geezers like us!
Chris from Lafayette
2020-12-26 18:58:43 UTC
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Post by dk
I heard Zimerman for the first time in 1975 at
the Chopin Competition. I never liked a single note he played.
And that gives your opinion a special value? I wasn't at the competition, but I first heard him around the mid-70's too. And, at that time, I would have agreed with you somewhat. However, in subsequent years, Zimerman released some rather more compelling recordings, in terms of both interpretation and, yes, even pianistic finish (as high as that was right off the bat!) - including the Rachmaninoff Concertos with Ozawa, the Liszt Concertos (also with Ozawa), the Ravel Concertos with Boulez, the Debussy Preludes. . .
Post by dk
He is nothing more than a craftsman who polishes every single
note without any overall view of the work. Everything he plays
sounds like a sequence of unrelated small episodes without
connection with one another. Every recording he produced
confirmed my initial impression. Look up the dictionary for
"kolter tuchas". ;-)
Nope - if you can't explain it, I'm not going to bother. (Why should I? Give me some motivation.)
Post by dk
Playing the piano is (or should be) more than piano playing.
I agree - and Zimerman does have this "more" in his playing IMHO.
Post by dk
dk
In short, as you become more evolved, I'm sure you will come to appreciate that Zimerman is much more than a craftsman who plays unrelated small episodes - because, at some point, you too will be able to hear the larger structural connections in the music which Zimerman is making - a perception which seems to elude you now! ;-)
Henk vT
2020-12-24 09:17:44 UTC
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Post by dk
Recommendations please? I have not
listened to this in a very long time.
From the cave, Malcuzynski/Kletzki:



Henk
Ricardo Jimenez
2020-12-24 15:57:09 UTC
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Post by dk
Recommendations please? I have not
listened to this in a very long time.
TIA
dk
Cortot improved on Chopin's orchestral accompianment. You can find
him playing his version on Youtube with both Mengelberg and Barbirolli
conducting. More recently, Ingolf Wunder recorded his "edited"
version of Chopin/Cortot as part of a 2 CD set Chopin and Liszt in
Warsaw." All great performances.
Chris from Lafayette
2020-12-24 23:28:06 UTC
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Cortot improved on Chopin's orchestral accompianment. You can find
him playing his version on Youtube with both Mengelberg and Barbirolli
conducting. More recently, Ingolf Wunder recorded his "edited"
version of Chopin/Cortot as part of a 2 CD set Chopin and Liszt in
Warsaw." All great performances.
Also Haskil/Markevitch use the Cortot re-orchestration. It certainly raises the "center of gravity" of the orchestral texture, but IMHO it makes the orchestra too prominent. I'd just as soon stick with Chopin's "blah" original orchestration. ;-)
Ricardo Jimenez
2020-12-24 23:58:20 UTC
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On Thu, 24 Dec 2020 15:28:06 -0800 (PST), Chris from Lafayette
Post by Chris from Lafayette
Cortot improved on Chopin's orchestral accompianment. You can find
him playing his version on Youtube with both Mengelberg and Barbirolli
conducting. More recently, Ingolf Wunder recorded his "edited"
version of Chopin/Cortot as part of a 2 CD set Chopin and Liszt in
Warsaw." All great performances.
Also Haskil/Markevitch use the Cortot re-orchestration. It certainly raises the "center of gravity" of the orchestral texture, but IMHO it makes the orchestra too prominent. I'd just as soon stick with Chopin's "blah" original orchestration. ;-)
According to Wikipedia, it is not clear that the original
orchestration is due to Chopin: "Chopin's fellow composers and Prof.
Elsner's former students, Ignacy Feliks Dobrzynski (1807-1867) and
Tomasz Nidecki (1807-1852), are believed to have helped him
orchestrate his piano concertos". If I am not mistaken, all of the
Chopin works for piano and orchestra except for the Andante Spianato
and Grande Polonaise were written in Warsaw. He certainly could have
found somebody to help him in Paris if he were inclined to write any
more.
dk
2020-12-25 10:37:27 UTC
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Post by dk
Recommendations please? I have not
listened to this in a very long time.
Cortot improved on Chopin's orchestral accompianment. You can find
him playing his version on Youtube with both Mengelberg and Barbirolli
conducting. More recently, Ingolf Wunder recorded his "edited"
version of Chopin/Cortot as part of a 2 CD set Chopin and Liszt in
Warsaw." All great performances.
I just tried to listen to Ingolf Wunder's reading on YT, and I
couldn't stand it for more than a few bars. His Chopin is
even more metromoronic than Backhaus'! Some people
swallow metronomes when they start learning the piano,
however this guy was born with a metronome inside! Or
maybe he is the son of two metronomes!

dk
dk
2020-12-26 01:13:27 UTC
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Many thanks for all the recommendations!
Listening again to all these recordings, as
well as to others not mentioned here, was
an ear opening experience!

Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year to
everyone here!

dk
MELMOTH
2020-12-26 08:29:17 UTC
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Post by dk
Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year to
everyone here!
And to Arrau and Zimerman ?...
dk
2020-12-26 08:47:25 UTC
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Post by MELMOTH
Post by dk
Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year to
everyone here!
And to Arrau and Zimerman ?...
Nope.

dk
Alan Cooper
2020-12-26 15:03:05 UTC
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Post by dk
Recommendations please? I have not
listened to this in a very long time.
TIA
dk
I hardly ever listen to it because it strikes me as overblown salon music, nowhere near in a class with Chopin's best. Whatever.... A couple of recordings heard recently that did capture my attention at least briefly: Argerich live with Bour; Ewa Kupiec w/Skrowaczewski. Both have the advantage (at least I think it's an advantage) of conductors who take the orchestral accompaniment seriously. Also, I don't understand why Kupiec isn't better known.; I certainly enjoy what I have heard.

AC
MELMOTH
2020-12-26 16:48:06 UTC
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Post by dk
Recommendations please? I have not
listened to this in a very long time.
Novaes...
François...
Haskil...

1er concerto : Cziffra/Rosenthal...
TonyD
2020-12-26 19:31:48 UTC
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Post by dk
Recommendations please? I have not
listened to this in a very long time.
TIA
dk
Check out Pletnev's Russified re-orchestrations, with Trifonov at the piano. There was a DG release, and there are live performances on youtube. Not my favorite piano part, but it's fun listening to the Chopin concerti as though they were composed by Tchaikovsky.

Far too many performances of these concerti drag on.

I think I still prefer Hofmann/Barbirolli.

There is also a good Beethovenian performance of no. 2 by Richter.

Oborin is also solid here (a pianist I don't usually care for, and the Russian orchestra is exactly as you would imagine it to be).

The live Cortot version is about what you'd expect, I personally like it.

The young Ashkenazy is good as well, the live one from years before he tied Ogdon in the Tchaikovsky competition.

Or you can replace the orchestra with a string quintet and listen to Shiraga's chamber version.

Tony
gggg gggg
2021-10-12 18:29:04 UTC
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Post by TonyD
Post by dk
Recommendations please? I have not
listened to this in a very long time.
TIA
dk
Check out Pletnev's Russified re-orchestrations, with Trifonov at the piano. There was a DG release, and there are live performances on youtube. Not my favorite piano part, but it's fun listening to the Chopin concerti as though they were composed by Tchaikovsky.
Far too many performances of these concerti drag on.
I think I still prefer Hofmann/Barbirolli.
There is also a good Beethovenian performance of no. 2 by Richter.
Oborin is also solid here (a pianist I don't usually care for, and the Russian orchestra is exactly as you would imagine it to be).
The live Cortot version is about what you'd expect, I personally like it...
(Recent Y. upload):

Alfred Cortot with Landon Ronald & John Barbirolli: Schumann & Chopin 2 (London 1934-’35)
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