Discussion:
Best Debussy and Ravel quartets
(too old to reply)
Andy Evans
2009-06-07 01:05:12 UTC
Permalink
I'm probably due for a fresh performance of these works. I heard
excerpts from the Belcea Qt which sounded nice. Hagen is a bit syrupy,
Cleveland a bit bland etc etc. I used to have the Vlach recording
which I liked a lot - not sure if that's still available.

Anyway, what are your favourites?

andy
EM
2009-06-07 01:32:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andy Evans
Anyway, what are your favourites?
I quite like the Galimir Quartet (Vanguard).
BTW, the cellist of that ensemble, Tim Eddy, later recorded the
Debussy quartet also with the Orion String Quartet for the Chamber
Music Society of Lincoln Center (Delos).

EM
Thornhill
2009-06-07 02:15:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andy Evans
I'm probably due for a fresh performance of these works. I heard
excerpts from the Belcea Qt which sounded nice. Hagen is a bit syrupy,
Cleveland a bit bland etc etc.  I used to have the Vlach recording
which I liked a lot - not sure if that's still available.
Anyway, what are your favourites?
andy
If you're looking for fresh, check out Quatuor Ebene on Virgin.
Alan Cooper
2009-06-07 20:18:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Thornhill
Post by Andy Evans
I'm probably due for a fresh performance of these works. I
heard excerpts from the Belcea Qt which sounded nice. Hagen is
a bit syrupy, Cleveland a bit bland etc etc.  I used to have
the Vlach recording which I liked a lot - not sure if that's
still available.
Anyway, what are your favourites?
andy
If you're looking for fresh, check out Quatuor Ebene on Virgin.
Yes, absolutely. Their French SQ performances feature the same fresh sound and
terchnical command that make their Haydn so rewarding. The opening of the Ravel
is pure magic. Best of all, the Ravel/Debussy pairing is accompanied by a
superlative performance of Faure's wonderful but elusive String Quartet. If you
like the Vlach Ravel/Debussy (also on the lean side, sonority-wise), I suspect you
will enjoy the Ebene at least as much. The Vlach recording, btw, was reissued in
the Supraphon Archive series at midprice several years ago, but it may be op now.

AC
Andy Evans
2009-06-07 21:23:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Thornhill
If you're looking for fresh, check out Quatuor Ebene on Virgin.
Yes, absolutely.  Their French SQ performances feature the same fresh sound and terchnical command that make their Haydn so rewarding.  If you like the Vlach Ravel/Debussy (also on the lean side, sonority-wise), I suspect you will enjoy the Ebene at least as much.  The Vlach recording, btw, was reissued in the Supraphon Archive series at midprice several years ago, but it may be op now.
AC
I've ordered the Ebene and the Belcea. I wouldn't mind ordering the
Vlach - I'll have to look for a cheap copy - listed at some high
prices on Amazon. The Melos has been much recommended so I'll look out
for that too.

andy
m***@hotmail.com
2009-06-07 22:29:12 UTC
Permalink
.....The Melos has been much recommended so I'll look out
for that too.
andy
The Melos is out-of-catalogue, but it is available as digital download
at the DG Store (320 k)
Tom Deacon
2009-06-07 08:58:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andy Evans
I'm probably due for a fresh performance of these works. I heard
excerpts from the Belcea Qt which sounded nice. Hagen is a bit syrupy,
Cleveland a bit bland etc etc. I used to have the Vlach recording
which I liked a lot - not sure if that's still available.
Anyway, what are your favourites?
andy
Juilliard Quartet, RCA Victor.

TD
Thomas Wood
2009-06-08 01:58:50 UTC
Permalink
I was going to say that. Actually, those are hardy pieces -- hard to really
play badly.

Tom Wood
Post by Tom Deacon
Post by Andy Evans
I'm probably due for a fresh performance of these works. I heard
excerpts from the Belcea Qt which sounded nice. Hagen is a bit syrupy,
Cleveland a bit bland etc etc. I used to have the Vlach recording
which I liked a lot - not sure if that's still available.
Anyway, what are your favourites?
andy
Juilliard Quartet, RCA Victor.
TD
Matthew B. Tepper
2009-06-08 03:05:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Thomas Wood
I was going to say that. Actually, those are hardy pieces -- hard to
really play badly.
So are the Bloch quartets, particularly as recorded on Laurel.
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page -- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/index.html
My main music page --- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
Opinions expressed here are not necessarily those of my employers
Richard
2009-06-08 20:12:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Thomas Wood
I was going to say that. Actually, those are hardy pieces -- hard to really
play badly.
Tom Wood
Post by Tom Deacon
Post by Andy Evans
I'm probably due for a fresh performance of these works. I heard
excerpts from the Belcea Qt which sounded nice. Hagen is a bit syrupy,
Cleveland a bit bland etc etc.  I used to have the Vlach recording
which I liked a lot - not sure if that's still available.
Anyway, what are your favourites?
andy
Juilliard Quartet, RCA Victor.
TD
Parrenin Qt,
Quartetto Italiano
Richard
disquod
2009-06-08 21:04:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Richard
Post by Thomas Wood
I was going to say that. Actually, those are hardy pieces -- hard to really
play badly.
Tom Wood
Post by Tom Deacon
Post by Andy Evans
I'm probably due for a fresh performance of these works. I heard
excerpts from the Belcea Qt which sounded nice. Hagen is a bit syrupy,
I am much more fond of the 1928 Capet Quartet's recording than Andy
Evans is. Yes, it sounds very primitive next to a modern SACD, but
they bring such a sense of tradition to their playing - especially the
slow movement, which is glorious - that I can't stop listening to
them. The similarly-named Calvet Quartet made a recording of the work
in 1931. Again, the sound is primitive (though much better than the
Capet), but they play the work in a way one just doesn't hear in
concert today. It is definitely worth a listen.

-Larry
Post by Richard
Post by Thomas Wood
Post by Tom Deacon
Post by Andy Evans
Cleveland a bit bland etc etc.  I used to have the Vlach recording
which I liked a lot - not sure if that's still available.
Anyway, what are your favourites?
andy
Juilliard Quartet, RCA Victor.
TD
Parrenin Qt,
Quartetto Italiano
Richard
Tom Deacon
2009-06-08 21:26:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by disquod
Post by Thomas Wood
I was going to say that. Actually, those are hardy pieces -- hard to re
ally
Post by Thomas Wood
play badly.
Tom Wood
om>
Post by Thomas Wood
Post by Andy Evans
I'm probably due for a fresh performance of these works. I heard
excerpts from the Belcea Qt which sounded nice. Hagen is a bit syrup
y,
I am much more fond of the 1928 Capet Quartet's recording than Andy
Evans is. Yes, it sounds very primitive next to a modern SACD, but
they bring such a sense of tradition to their playing - especially the
slow movement, which is glorious - that I can't stop listening to
them. The similarly-named Calvet Quartet made a recording of the work
in 1931. Again, the sound is primitive (though much better than the
Capet), but they play the work in a way one just doesn't hear in
concert today. It is definitely worth a listen.
-Larry
They are, indeed. Mainly for the style, which seems rather
old-fashioned today, I think. Sound questions aside, as you say.

But the Juilliard Quartet's version, which sounds best perhaps on an
original LP in pristine condition, but which sounds OK (shows what
happens when engineers try to restore a tape they know nothing about, I
think) if not fabulous. The Juilliard Quartet was in its absolute prime
at that time, however. And it is a real treat to hear this music played
with every little note in tune and together and sounding like a real
string quartet. No effort is required to bring these four musicians
alive in your living room.

This can be said of other recordings, of course, and perhaps more so
with more modern recordings, but none of them have the sheen of the
Juilliards. No not even the Quartetto Italiano, I would say in all
honesty, despite my fondness for that recording too.

TD
Steve Emerson
2009-06-12 03:13:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tom Deacon
Post by disquod
Post by Thomas Wood
I was going to say that. Actually, those are hardy pieces -- hard to re
ally
Post by Thomas Wood
play badly.
Tom Wood
om>
Post by Thomas Wood
Post by Andy Evans
I'm probably due for a fresh performance of these works. I heard
excerpts from the Belcea Qt which sounded nice. Hagen is a bit syrup
y,
I am much more fond of the 1928 Capet Quartet's recording than Andy
Evans is. Yes, it sounds very primitive next to a modern SACD, but
they bring such a sense of tradition to their playing - especially the
slow movement, which is glorious - that I can't stop listening to
them. The similarly-named Calvet Quartet made a recording of the work
in 1931. Again, the sound is primitive (though much better than the
Capet), but they play the work in a way one just doesn't hear in
concert today. It is definitely worth a listen.
-Larry
They are, indeed. Mainly for the style, which seems rather
old-fashioned today, I think. Sound questions aside, as you say.
But the Juilliard Quartet's version, which sounds best perhaps on an
original LP in pristine condition, but which sounds OK (shows what
happens when engineers try to restore a tape they know nothing about, I
think) if not fabulous. The Juilliard Quartet was in its absolute prime
at that time, however. And it is a real treat to hear this music played
with every little note in tune and together and sounding like a real
string quartet. No effort is required to bring these four musicians
alive in your living room.
You're speaking of the RCA Juilliard? I agree it's remarkable -- but the
early recording they did for Columbia I like even better (the Debussy
portion). The Krosnick-era Juilliards also did one, early '90s.


The fierceness of both early Juilliard recordings makes them a bit outré
for me, galvanic though they are.
Post by Tom Deacon
This can be said of other recordings, of course, and perhaps more so
with more modern recordings, but none of them have the sheen of the
Juilliards. No not even the Quartetto Italiano, I would say in all
honesty, despite my fondness for that recording too.
(Again there are two, EMI and Philips.)

In the Debussy, the Emerson Quartet is a definite contender, with
strangely enough, a slightly more Gallic feel than either the, er,
Quartetto Italiano; or the -- Alban Berg; or the Juilliard. Each of
which is a keeper.

The Paganini Quartet did the Debussy twice; I only know the less famous
one. It would be good to hear the other sometime.

SE.
Tom Deacon
2009-06-12 10:45:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve Emerson
Post by Tom Deacon
Post by disquod
Post by Thomas Wood
I was going to say that. Actually, those are hardy pieces -- hard to re
ally
Post by Thomas Wood
play badly.
Tom Wood
om>
Post by Thomas Wood
Post by Andy Evans
I'm probably due for a fresh performance of these works. I heard
excerpts from the Belcea Qt which sounded nice. Hagen is a bit syrup
y,
I am much more fond of the 1928 Capet Quartet's recording than Andy
Evans is. Yes, it sounds very primitive next to a modern SACD, but
they bring such a sense of tradition to their playing - especially the
slow movement, which is glorious - that I can't stop listening to
them. The similarly-named Calvet Quartet made a recording of the work
in 1931. Again, the sound is primitive (though much better than the
Capet), but they play the work in a way one just doesn't hear in
concert today. It is definitely worth a listen.
-Larry
They are, indeed. Mainly for the style, which seems rather
old-fashioned today, I think. Sound questions aside, as you say.
But the Juilliard Quartet's version, which sounds best perhaps on an
original LP in pristine condition, but which sounds OK (shows what
happens when engineers try to restore a tape they know nothing about, I
think) if not fabulous. The Juilliard Quartet was in its absolute prime
at that time, however. And it is a real treat to hear this music played
with every little note in tune and together and sounding like a real
string quartet. No effort is required to bring these four musicians
alive in your living room.
You're speaking of the RCA Juilliard? I agree it's remarkable -- but the
early recording they did for Columbia I like even better (the Debussy
portion). The Krosnick-era Juilliards also did one, early '90s.
The fierceness of both early Juilliard recordings makes them a bit outré
for me, galvanic though they are.
Post by Tom Deacon
This can be said of other recordings, of course, and perhaps more so
with more modern recordings, but none of them have the sheen of the
Juilliards. No not even the Quartetto Italiano, I would say in all
honesty, despite my fondness for that recording too.
(Again there are two, EMI and Philips.)
Yes, indeed.

I have all those QI recordings on the original Angel issues. I suppose
they have been reissued on Testament? I haven't checked. but the LP
issues are quite rare, Steve and not widely known.

The Philips issue is the one most people refer to, of course, when they
speak of their interpretation.

TD
Steve Emerson
2009-06-12 18:45:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tom Deacon
Post by Steve Emerson
Post by Tom Deacon
No not even the Quartetto Italiano, I would say in all
honesty, despite my fondness for that recording too.
(Again there are two, EMI and Philips.)
Yes, indeed.
I have all those QI recordings on the original Angel issues. I suppose
they have been reissued on Testament? I haven't checked. but the LP
issues are quite rare, Steve and not widely known.
The EMI was reissued in EMI References (ART mastering) -- I would guess
about 2001. The Milhaud quartet they recorded was thrown in. I remember
Marc Perman remarking on it here.

SE.
Bob Lombard
2009-06-12 13:14:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve Emerson
In the Debussy, the Emerson Quartet is a definite contender, with
strangely enough, a slightly more Gallic feel than either the, er,
Quartetto Italiano; or the -- Alban Berg; or the Juilliard. Each of
which is a keeper.
The Paganini Quartet did the Debussy twice; I only know the less famous
one. It would be good to hear the other sometime.
SE.
I listened to the Fine Arts quartet play them recently (hmm, I mean the
recording). I hadn't heard either piece for several years, and enjoyed
the Debussy quite a lot; the Ravel not so much.

bl
Steve Emerson
2009-06-12 03:19:33 UTC
Permalink
In article
Post by disquod
I am much more fond of the 1928 Capet Quartet's recording than Andy
Evans is. Yes, it sounds very primitive next to a modern SACD, but
they bring such a sense of tradition to their playing - especially the
slow movement, which is glorious - that I can't stop listening to
them. The similarly-named Calvet Quartet made a recording of the work
in 1931. Again, the sound is primitive (though much better than the
Capet), but they play the work in a way one just doesn't hear in
concert today. It is definitely worth a listen.
Hi Larry,

(I have the hardest time separating the Calvets and the Capets in what's
left of my brain. The Lord Calvert, however, I can distinguish.)

Are there any others by French quartets that we should know? I think
Benoit might have uploaded a Loewenguth awhile back.... And the Ebene
has drawn praise.

Anybody heard the recently released Ysaye Qtt disc? (Debussy, Fauré,
Stravinsky.) This ensemble is, IMO, first-rate.

SE.
Herman
2016-08-17 15:19:54 UTC
Permalink
Anybody heard the recently released Ysaye Qtt disc? (Debussy, Faur�,
Stravinsky.) This ensemble is, IMO, first-rate.
This Wigmore Hall live cd by the Quatuor Ysaye is terrific, most of all in the Debussy, which isn't played as delicately pretty as has become standard.

I'm not sure I find everything the Q. Ysaye have done first class (they can be a little didactic at times, such as in their Mendelssohn), but in this live recording they are great. The group disbanded in Jan 2014.
dk
2016-08-17 16:10:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Herman
Anybody heard the recently released Ysaye Qtt disc? (Debussy, Faur�,
Stravinsky.) This ensemble is, IMO, first-rate.
This Wigmore Hall live cd by the Quatuor Ysaye is terrific,
most of all in the Debussy, which isn't played as delicately
pretty as has become standard.
Wigmore Hall is problematic for string quartets
because of its reverberation caused by its shape
and high ceiling.
Post by Herman
I'm not sure I find everything the Q. Ysaye have done first
class (they can be a little didactic at times, such as in
their Mendelssohn), but in this live recording they are
great. The group disbanded in Jan 2014.
Quator Parrenin is the widely accepted
reference for Debussy and Ravel.

dk
c***@gmail.com
2016-08-17 17:47:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by dk
Quator Parrenin is the widely accepted
reference for Debussy and Ravel.
dk
No it isn't, unless "widely" is a cognomen of dk. Stick to pianists, Dan.

AC
dk
2016-08-17 19:22:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by c***@gmail.com
Quatuor Parrenin is the widely accepted
reference for Debussy and Ravel.
No it isn't, unless "widely" is a cognomen of dk. Stick to pianists, Dan.
You have obviously not heard the Parrenin:

http://www.forgottenrecords.com/Quatuor-Parrenin--Debussy-Ravel--172.html

dk
c***@gmail.com
2016-08-17 20:27:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by dk
Post by c***@gmail.com
Quatuor Parrenin is the widely accepted
reference for Debussy and Ravel.
No it isn't, unless "widely" is a cognomen of dk. Stick to pianists, Dan.
http://www.forgottenrecords.com/Quatuor-Parrenin--Debussy-Ravel--172.html
dk
You're such a nudnick, Dan! Of course I've heard it. FYI, the "reference" recording is here:
International String Quartet: Andre Mangeot, violin; Boris Pecker, violin; Frank Howard, viola; Herbert Withers, cello. Rec. London, June, 1927 under the composer's supervision and issued as National Gramophonic Society NGS 78/81. Ravel commented that he was "satisfied as much with the sonority as with the tempi and the nuances." That's "reference," which is not necessarily the same as "best" or "favorite". It does happen to be a fine performance, as are others close in time such as the Capet, Calvet, and Galimir (the last-named also approved by the composer). The Parrenin recording is excellent, as are many many others. My *personal* "reference" (no longer my favorite) for both the Ravel and the Debussy was Juilliard/RCA, from which I learned them.

Now you can insult me again, but perhaps others here will appreciate the information.

AC
dk
2016-08-17 20:32:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by c***@gmail.com
Post by dk
Post by c***@gmail.com
Quatuor Parrenin is the widely accepted
reference for Debussy and Ravel.
No it isn't, unless "widely" is a cognomen of dk. Stick to pianists, Dan.
http://www.forgottenrecords.com/Quatuor-Parrenin--Debussy-Ravel--172.html
dk
You're such a nudnick, Dan! Of course I've heard it. FYI, the "reference" recording is here: http://youtu.be/zVTplB5IGis International String Quartet: Andre Mangeot, violin; Boris Pecker, violin; Frank Howard, viola; Herbert Withers, cello. Rec. London, June, 1927 under the composer's supervision and issued as National Gramophonic Society NGS 78/81. Ravel commented that he was "satisfied as much with the sonority as with the tempi and the nuances." That's "reference," which is not necessarily the same as "best" or "favorite". It does happen to be a fine performance, as are others close in time such as the Capet, Calvet, and Galimir (the last-named also approved by the composer). The Parrenin recording is excellent, as are many many others. My *personal* "reference" (no longer my favorite) for both the Ravel and the Debussy was Juilliard/RCA, from which I learned them.
Now you can insult me again, but perhaps others here will appreciate the information.
AC
No offense intended.
Thanks for all the info.
dk
c***@gmail.com
2016-08-17 20:52:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by dk
Post by c***@gmail.com
Post by dk
Post by c***@gmail.com
Quatuor Parrenin is the widely accepted
reference for Debussy and Ravel.
No it isn't, unless "widely" is a cognomen of dk. Stick to pianists, Dan.
http://www.forgottenrecords.com/Quatuor-Parrenin--Debussy-Ravel--172.html
dk
You're such a nudnick, Dan! Of course I've heard it. FYI, the "reference" recording is here: http://youtu.be/zVTplB5IGis International String Quartet: Andre Mangeot, violin; Boris Pecker, violin; Frank Howard, viola; Herbert Withers, cello. Rec. London, June, 1927 under the composer's supervision and issued as National Gramophonic Society NGS 78/81. Ravel commented that he was "satisfied as much with the sonority as with the tempi and the nuances." That's "reference," which is not necessarily the same as "best" or "favorite". It does happen to be a fine performance, as are others close in time such as the Capet, Calvet, and Galimir (the last-named also approved by the composer). The Parrenin recording is excellent, as are many many others. My *personal* "reference" (no longer my favorite) for both the Ravel and the Debussy was Juilliard/RCA, from which I learned them.
Now you can insult me again, but perhaps others here will appreciate the information.
AC
No offense intended.
Thanks for all the info.
dk
None taken. I meant to add that the Parrenin Ravel is also on youtube in good sound:
Most extraordinary for its mercurial handling of tempo. Sounds almost improvisatory but of course it's not. I only wish I could enjoy the leader's sound more than I do. Aside from the Forgotten Records issue, note that the Parrenin Ravel/Debussy coupling is in print in Japan (http://www.hmv.co.jp/en/artist_Debussy-Ravel_000000000019277/item_Debussy-String-Quartet-Ravel-String-Quartet-Parrenin-Quartet_5977573), and the Ravel was available in an interesting 2-CD compilation that turns up used: https://www.amazon.com/Chamber-Music-M-Ravel/dp/B00008PW6J/.

AC
dk
2016-08-17 23:00:37 UTC
Permalink
None taken. I meant to add that the Parrenin Ravel is also on
youtube in good sound: http://youtu.be/mabH4s6dc9Q
Most extraordinary for its mercurial handling of tempo.
Sounds almost improvisatory but of course it's not.
Thanks for confessing! ;-)

dk
Oscar
2016-08-18 00:44:58 UTC
Permalink
This Californian nudnick here has been a steady listener to the Ebene Quartet's 2007 Virgin Classics recording, my modern reference. But really, there are so many truly great versions of these works; it may be more informative to list the dreadful recordings instead.
c***@gmail.com
2016-08-18 02:21:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Oscar
This Californian nudnick here has been a steady listener to the Ebene Quartet's 2007 Virgin Classics recording, my modern reference. But really, there are so many truly great versions of these works; it may be more informative to list the dreadful recordings instead.
Very fine indeed, although Dan's comment about the Juilliard being "a little too intense and energetic while lacking a bit in fluidity and sensuality" might apply to the Ebene as well, esp. in the Ravel. For me the highlight of the Ebene disc is the stunning Fauré. Have you heard the Arcanto Debussy/Ravel, c/w Dutilleux?

Many interesting historicals have appeared on blogs or in privately posted transfers. The superb 1928-29 Krettly Quartet recordings of the Fauré and Ravel Quartets are on Symphonyshare. I love the way Robert Krettly sounds, and the cellist was a pretty good player named André Navarra :-) Also worth seeking out: the Carmirelli Quartet Ravel, c/w Prokofiev.

AC
l***@aol.com
2016-08-18 02:48:14 UTC
Permalink
The best Debussy Quartet recording I know can be found here:

http://judithaller.com/works/

The leader of the ensemble made a CD for me, but unfortunately the performance has not received a commercial release.

Larry Kart
l***@aol.com
2016-08-18 03:14:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by l***@aol.com
http://judithaller.com/works/
The leader of the ensemble made a CD for me, but unfortunately the performance has not received a commercial release.
Larry Kart
Attempting to explain how I feel about it, I wrote a sincere if somewhat moist blurb for this recording:

To have encountered over time many performances of Debussy's String Quartet and then to encounter another that almost leaves one feeling as though one had never really heard the work before -- as is the case with the recording of the Aller Quartet (Judith Aller, first violin; Samvel Chilingarian, 2nd violin; Adriana Zoppo, viola; Manon Robertshaw, cello) made of the work in 2003 ... that does call for some attempt to speak about why that is so.

Whether it was a matter of musicological/historical shrewdness or an understanding that spread outwards from direct contact with the score (I suspect both), this is a performance that is aware that the Debussy Quartet is a fin de siècle work, not a modern one. That Debussy, in effect, gave us so much of what modern music has become seems to have led any number of celebrated ensembles to approach this work as though the Nineteenth Century were only a memory -- as though the work were a musical illustration of the famous claim made by Debussy's friend and contemporary, painter Maurice Denis: "Remember that a picture, before being a battle horse, a nude, an anecdote of whatnot, is essentially a flat surface covered with colors assembled in a certain order."

But any "'flat surface' modern" reading of the Debussy Quartet, which is what we often get, virtually dispenses with the work's essence -- its at once sure-footed and tentative reaching out toward the "New" (tentative in part because no corporate sense of Modernity existed as yet). The Debussy Quartet then is a work, above all, of "becoming" -- a collaborative, four-voice, four-beings act of becoming in which not all the beings know and grow at the same rate and time but rather proceed to feed and shudder, recoil and bask, in response to their individual discoveries (which then become collective).

It is that necessary sense of four beings, four instrumental tendrils, intertwining for the first time that the Aller Quartet's performance of the Debussy so beautifully realizes. ("One doesn't 'enter' the Castel Beranger," Maurice Rheims wrote of the famous 1894 Paris building designed by Art Nouveau architect Hector Guimard. "One slips into it....") On repeated encounters with this performance, that sense of becoming for the first time is always there.

Larry Kart
dk
2016-08-18 07:25:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by l***@aol.com
Post by l***@aol.com
http://judithaller.com/works/
The leader of the ensemble made a CD for me, but unfortunately
the performance has not received a commercial release.
Attempting to explain how I feel about it, I wrote a sincere if
To have encountered over time many performances of Debussy's
String Quartet and then to encounter another that almost leaves
one feeling as though one had never really heard the work before
-- as is the case with the recording of the Aller Quartet (Judith
Aller, first violin; Samvel Chilingarian, 2nd violin; Adriana Zoppo,
viola; Manon Robertshaw, cello) made of the work in 2003 ... that
does call for some attempt to speak about why that is so.
Sounds intriguing. I shall definitely listen.
Thanks for the link.

dk
c***@gmail.com
2016-08-18 12:49:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by l***@aol.com
Whether it was a matter of musicological/historical shrewdness or an understanding that spread outwards from direct contact with the score (I suspect both), this is a performance that is aware that the Debussy Quartet is a fin de siècle work, not a modern one.
Of course no one can challenge what another person feels, but I would note that Lucien Capet, b. 1873, 20 years old when the quartet was premiered and a friend of the composer, probably had a pretty good idea "that the Debussy Quartet is a fin de siècle work," although for him it was undoubtedly "modern". His quartet's famous recording of the work bears little resemblance to this one
etc.), although it differs in significant ways (phrasing, tempo) from more recent recordings. FWIW.

I have great respect for Ms. Aller, but found this performance wayward in conception and problematic in execution. I guess I'm not sufficiently "fin de siècle" myself (well, maybe fin-de-20th). Will have to listen again, and I appreciate your bringing it to our attention.

AC
l***@aol.com
2016-08-18 15:00:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by c***@gmail.com
Post by l***@aol.com
Whether it was a matter of musicological/historical shrewdness or an understanding that spread outwards from direct contact with the score (I suspect both), this is a performance that is aware that the Debussy Quartet is a fin de siècle work, not a modern one.
Of course no one can challenge what another person feels, but I would note that Lucien Capet, b. 1873, 20 years old when the quartet was premiered and a friend of the composer, probably had a pretty good idea "that the Debussy Quartet is a fin de siècle work," although for him it was undoubtedly "modern". His quartet's famous recording of the work bears little resemblance to this one http://youtu.be/PnmuTymQMyQ etc.), although it differs in significant ways (phrasing, tempo) from more recent recordings. FWIW.
I have great respect for Ms. Aller, but found this performance wayward in conception and problematic in execution. I guess I'm not sufficiently "fin de siècle" myself (well, maybe fin-de-20th). Will have to listen again, and I appreciate your bringing it to our attention.
AC
I love the Capet recording, but while there are differences, I alsoI hear resemblances to the Aller performance -- in particular, that individual lines are often "individualized" before they become corporate/communal, as though each instrument is at times and to some degree on its own quest. An image that comes to mind of is that of a time-lapse film of a set of growing green vines that eventually cover the surface of a garden wall.

Another way to put this perhaps is that in the Juilliard RCA recording, which I admire, one has the sense that the controlling "intelligence" of the performance is just that, the result of careful corporate planning, whereas with the Capet and the Aller, whatever the practical realities of those performances might have been, the sense of shaping and control seems to be much more in the moment or moments, with choices being affected by the (again, in the moment) choices of other members of the ensemble.

LK
c***@gmail.com
2016-08-18 18:09:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by l***@aol.com
Post by c***@gmail.com
Post by l***@aol.com
Whether it was a matter of musicological/historical shrewdness or an understanding that spread outwards from direct contact with the score (I suspect both), this is a performance that is aware that the Debussy Quartet is a fin de siècle work, not a modern one.
Of course no one can challenge what another person feels, but I would note that Lucien Capet, b. 1873, 20 years old when the quartet was premiered and a friend of the composer, probably had a pretty good idea "that the Debussy Quartet is a fin de siècle work," although for him it was undoubtedly "modern". His quartet's famous recording of the work bears little resemblance to this one http://youtu.be/PnmuTymQMyQ etc.), although it differs in significant ways (phrasing, tempo) from more recent recordings. FWIW.
I have great respect for Ms. Aller, but found this performance wayward in conception and problematic in execution. I guess I'm not sufficiently "fin de siècle" myself (well, maybe fin-de-20th). Will have to listen again, and I appreciate your bringing it to our attention.
AC
I love the Capet recording, but while there are differences, I alsoI hear resemblances to the Aller performance -- in particular, that individual lines are often "individualized" before they become corporate/communal, as though each instrument is at times and to some degree on its own quest. An image that comes to mind of is that of a time-lapse film of a set of growing green vines that eventually cover the surface of a garden wall.
Another way to put this perhaps is that in the Juilliard RCA recording, which I admire, one has the sense that the controlling "intelligence" of the performance is just that, the result of careful corporate planning, whereas with the Capet and the Aller, whatever the practical realities of those performances might have been, the sense of shaping and control seems to be much more in the moment or moments, with choices being affected by the (again, in the moment) choices of other members of the ensemble.
LK
Thanks for the explanation. Sounds to me more like a prescription for the performance of a Sibelius symphony than for the Debussy String Quartet, but I get the point, and hey, if it works for you, terrific! Back to where Dan started all this, do you know the Parrenin recording?

A friend kindly informed me that the Carmirelli Quartet Ravel, which I mentioned earlier in this thread, is available on CD in a Ravel compendium on Australian Eloquence. I prefer that performance to the much-praised Quartetto Italiano, fwiw, but then I like just about anything involving Carmirelli.

AC
l***@aol.com
2016-08-18 18:27:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by c***@gmail.com
Post by l***@aol.com
Post by c***@gmail.com
Post by l***@aol.com
Whether it was a matter of musicological/historical shrewdness or an understanding that spread outwards from direct contact with the score (I suspect both), this is a performance that is aware that the Debussy Quartet is a fin de siècle work, not a modern one.
Of course no one can challenge what another person feels, but I would note that Lucien Capet, b. 1873, 20 years old when the quartet was premiered and a friend of the composer, probably had a pretty good idea "that the Debussy Quartet is a fin de siècle work," although for him it was undoubtedly "modern". His quartet's famous recording of the work bears little resemblance to this one http://youtu.be/PnmuTymQMyQ etc.), although it differs in significant ways (phrasing, tempo) from more recent recordings. FWIW.
I have great respect for Ms. Aller, but found this performance wayward in conception and problematic in execution. I guess I'm not sufficiently "fin de siècle" myself (well, maybe fin-de-20th). Will have to listen again, and I appreciate your bringing it to our attention.
AC
I love the Capet recording, but while there are differences, I alsoI hear resemblances to the Aller performance -- in particular, that individual lines are often "individualized" before they become corporate/communal, as though each instrument is at times and to some degree on its own quest. An image that comes to mind of is that of a time-lapse film of a set of growing green vines that eventually cover the surface of a garden wall.
Another way to put this perhaps is that in the Juilliard RCA recording, which I admire, one has the sense that the controlling "intelligence" of the performance is just that, the result of careful corporate planning, whereas with the Capet and the Aller, whatever the practical realities of those performances might have been, the sense of shaping and control seems to be much more in the moment or moments, with choices being affected by the (again, in the moment) choices of other members of the ensemble.
LK
Thanks for the explanation. Sounds to me more like a prescription for the performance of a Sibelius symphony than for the Debussy String Quartet, but I get the point, and hey, if it works for you, terrific! Back to where Dan started all this, do you know the Parrenin recording?
A friend kindly informed me that the Carmirelli Quartet Ravel, which I mentioned earlier in this thread, is available on CD in a Ravel compendium on Australian Eloquence. I prefer that performance to the much-praised Quartetto Italiano, fwiw, but then I like just about anything involving Carmirelli.
AC
Don't know the Parrenin, alas.

LK
c***@gmail.com
2016-08-19 13:17:50 UTC
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Post by l***@aol.com
Post by c***@gmail.com
Post by l***@aol.com
Post by c***@gmail.com
Post by l***@aol.com
Whether it was a matter of musicological/historical shrewdness or an understanding that spread outwards from direct contact with the score (I suspect both), this is a performance that is aware that the Debussy Quartet is a fin de siècle work, not a modern one.
Of course no one can challenge what another person feels, but I would note that Lucien Capet, b. 1873, 20 years old when the quartet was premiered and a friend of the composer, probably had a pretty good idea "that the Debussy Quartet is a fin de siècle work," although for him it was undoubtedly "modern". His quartet's famous recording of the work bears little resemblance to this one http://youtu.be/PnmuTymQMyQ etc.), although it differs in significant ways (phrasing, tempo) from more recent recordings. FWIW.
I have great respect for Ms. Aller, but found this performance wayward in conception and problematic in execution. I guess I'm not sufficiently "fin de siècle" myself (well, maybe fin-de-20th). Will have to listen again, and I appreciate your bringing it to our attention.
AC
I love the Capet recording, but while there are differences, I alsoI hear resemblances to the Aller performance -- in particular, that individual lines are often "individualized" before they become corporate/communal, as though each instrument is at times and to some degree on its own quest. An image that comes to mind of is that of a time-lapse film of a set of growing green vines that eventually cover the surface of a garden wall.
Another way to put this perhaps is that in the Juilliard RCA recording, which I admire, one has the sense that the controlling "intelligence" of the performance is just that, the result of careful corporate planning, whereas with the Capet and the Aller, whatever the practical realities of those performances might have been, the sense of shaping and control seems to be much more in the moment or moments, with choices being affected by the (again, in the moment) choices of other members of the ensemble.
LK
Thanks for the explanation. Sounds to me more like a prescription for the performance of a Sibelius symphony than for the Debussy String Quartet, but I get the point, and hey, if it works for you, terrific! Back to where Dan started all this, do you know the Parrenin recording?
A friend kindly informed me that the Carmirelli Quartet Ravel, which I mentioned earlier in this thread, is available on CD in a Ravel compendium on Australian Eloquence. I prefer that performance to the much-praised Quartetto Italiano, fwiw, but then I like just about anything involving Carmirelli.
AC
Don't know the Parrenin, alas.
LK
Not alas. You haven't missed much.

jdw
dk
2016-08-18 16:52:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by c***@gmail.com
I guess I'm not sufficiently "fin de siècle" myself (well, maybe fin-de-20th).
I suppose you know the Yiddish joke about "fin de siècle" -- do you?

dk
c***@gmail.com
2016-08-18 18:09:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by dk
Post by c***@gmail.com
I guess I'm not sufficiently "fin de siècle" myself (well, maybe fin-de-20th).
I suppose you know the Yiddish joke about "fin de siècle" -- do you?
dk
Alas, no.

AC
dk
2016-08-18 18:25:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by c***@gmail.com
Post by dk
Post by c***@gmail.com
I guess I'm not sufficiently "fin de siècle" myself (well, maybe fin-de-20th).
I suppose you know the Yiddish joke about "fin de siècle" -- do you?
Alas, no.
Think about what "fin de siècle" pronounced
correctly in French could mean in Yiddish! ;-)

dk
dk
2016-08-19 05:50:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by dk
Post by c***@gmail.com
Post by dk
Post by c***@gmail.com
I guess I'm not sufficiently "fin de siècle" myself (well, maybe fin-de-20th).
I suppose you know the Yiddish joke about "fin de siècle" -- do you?
Alas, no.
Think about what "fin de siècle" pronounced
correctly in French could mean in Yiddish! ;-)
Correction: pronounced in French with Yiddish
accent and intonation ;-)

dk
RiRiIII
2016-08-19 09:25:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by c***@gmail.com
Post by dk
Post by c***@gmail.com
Post by dk
Post by c***@gmail.com
Quatuor Parrenin is the widely accepted
reference for Debussy and Ravel.
No it isn't, unless "widely" is a cognomen of dk. Stick to pianists, Dan.
http://www.forgottenrecords.com/Quatuor-Parrenin--Debussy-Ravel--172.html
dk
You're such a nudnick, Dan! Of course I've heard it. FYI, the "reference" recording is here: http://youtu.be/zVTplB5IGis International String Quartet: Andre Mangeot, violin; Boris Pecker, violin; Frank Howard, viola; Herbert Withers, cello. Rec. London, June, 1927 under the composer's supervision and issued as National Gramophonic Society NGS 78/81. Ravel commented that he was "satisfied as much with the sonority as with the tempi and the nuances." That's "reference," which is not necessarily the same as "best" or "favorite". It does happen to be a fine performance, as are others close in time such as the Capet, Calvet, and Galimir (the last-named also approved by the composer). The Parrenin recording is excellent, as are many many others. My *personal* "reference" (no longer my favorite) for both the Ravel and the Debussy was Juilliard/RCA, from which I learned them.
Now you can insult me again, but perhaps others here will appreciate the information.
AC
No offense intended.
Thanks for all the info.
dk
None taken. I meant to add that the Parrenin Ravel is also on youtube in good sound: http://youtu.be/mabH4s6dc9Q Most extraordinary for its mercurial handling of tempo. Sounds almost improvisatory but of course it's not. I only wish I could enjoy the leader's sound more than I do. Aside from the Forgotten Records issue, note that the Parrenin Ravel/Debussy coupling is in print in Japan (http://www.hmv.co.jp/en/artist_Debussy-Ravel_000000000019277/item_Debussy-String-Quartet-Ravel-String-Quartet-Parrenin-Quartet_5977573), and the Ravel was available in an interesting 2-CD compilation that turns up used: https://www.amazon.com/Chamber-Music-M-Ravel/dp/B00008PW6J/.
AC
I see that the japanese ERATO CD is recorded in 1969, while the ForgottenRecords in 1954. So, the Parrenin SQ recorded it twice?

Thanks.

Alex
c***@gmail.com
2016-08-19 10:35:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by RiRiIII
Post by c***@gmail.com
Post by dk
Post by c***@gmail.com
Post by dk
Post by c***@gmail.com
Quatuor Parrenin is the widely accepted
reference for Debussy and Ravel.
No it isn't, unless "widely" is a cognomen of dk. Stick to pianists, Dan.
http://www.forgottenrecords.com/Quatuor-Parrenin--Debussy-Ravel--172.html
dk
You're such a nudnick, Dan! Of course I've heard it. FYI, the "reference" recording is here: http://youtu.be/zVTplB5IGis International String Quartet: Andre Mangeot, violin; Boris Pecker, violin; Frank Howard, viola; Herbert Withers, cello. Rec. London, June, 1927 under the composer's supervision and issued as National Gramophonic Society NGS 78/81. Ravel commented that he was "satisfied as much with the sonority as with the tempi and the nuances." That's "reference," which is not necessarily the same as "best" or "favorite". It does happen to be a fine performance, as are others close in time such as the Capet, Calvet, and Galimir (the last-named also approved by the composer). The Parrenin recording is excellent, as are many many others. My *personal* "reference" (no longer my favorite) for both the Ravel and the Debussy was Juilliard/RCA, from which I learned them.
Now you can insult me again, but perhaps others here will appreciate the information.
AC
No offense intended.
Thanks for all the info.
dk
None taken. I meant to add that the Parrenin Ravel is also on youtube in good sound: http://youtu.be/mabH4s6dc9Q Most extraordinary for its mercurial handling of tempo. Sounds almost improvisatory but of course it's not. I only wish I could enjoy the leader's sound more than I do. Aside from the Forgotten Records issue, note that the Parrenin Ravel/Debussy coupling is in print in Japan (http://www.hmv.co.jp/en/artist_Debussy-Ravel_000000000019277/item_Debussy-String-Quartet-Ravel-String-Quartet-Parrenin-Quartet_5977573), and the Ravel was available in an interesting 2-CD compilation that turns up used: https://www.amazon.com/Chamber-Music-M-Ravel/dp/B00008PW6J/.
AC
I see that the japanese ERATO CD is recorded in 1969, while the ForgottenRecords in 1954. So, the Parrenin SQ recorded it twice?
Thanks.
Alex
Apparently so, although I know only the 1969 EMI. I see another issue of the earlier recording here: http://www.hmv.co.jp/en/artist_Debussy-Ravel_000000000019277/item_String-Quartet-Quatuor-Parrenin-1950-s_2689505.

AC
Frank Berger
2016-08-19 12:24:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by c***@gmail.com
Post by RiRiIII
Post by c***@gmail.com
Post by dk
Post by c***@gmail.com
Post by dk
Post by c***@gmail.com
Quatuor Parrenin is the widely accepted
reference for Debussy and Ravel.
No it isn't, unless "widely" is a cognomen of dk. Stick to pianists, Dan.
http://www.forgottenrecords.com/Quatuor-Parrenin--Debussy-Ravel--172.html
dk
You're such a nudnick, Dan! Of course I've heard it. FYI, the "reference" recording is here: http://youtu.be/zVTplB5IGis International String Quartet: Andre Mangeot, violin; Boris Pecker, violin; Frank Howard, viola; Herbert Withers, cello. Rec. London, June, 1927 under the composer's supervision and issued as National Gramophonic Society NGS 78/81. Ravel commented that he was "satisfied as much with the sonority as with the tempi and the nuances." That's "reference," which is not necessarily the same as "best" or "favorite". It does happen to be a fine performance, as are others close in time such as the Capet, Calvet, and Galimir (the last-named also approved by the composer). The Parrenin recording is excellent, as are many many others. My *personal* "reference" (no longer my favorite) for both the Ravel and the Debussy was Juilliard/RCA, from which I learned them.
Now you can insult me again, but perhaps others here will appreciate the information.
AC
No offense intended.
Thanks for all the info.
dk
None taken. I meant to add that the Parrenin Ravel is also on youtube in good sound: http://youtu.be/mabH4s6dc9Q Most extraordinary for its mercurial handling of tempo. Sounds almost improvisatory but of course it's not. I only wish I could enjoy the leader's sound more than I do. Aside from the Forgotten Records issue, note that the Parrenin Ravel/Debussy coupling is in print in Japan (http://www.hmv.co.jp/en/artist_Debussy-Ravel_000000000019277/item_Debussy-String-Quartet-Ravel-String-Quartet-Parrenin-Quartet_5977573), and the Ravel was available in an interesting 2-CD compilation that turns up used: https://www.amazon.com/Chamber-Music-M-Ravel/dp/B00008PW6J/.
AC
I see that the japanese ERATO CD is recorded in 1969, while the ForgottenRecords in 1954. So, the Parrenin SQ recorded it twice?
Thanks.
Alex
Apparently so, although I know only the 1969 EMI. I see another issue of the earlier recording here: http://www.hmv.co.jp/en/artist_Debussy-Ravel_000000000019277/item_String-Quartet-Quatuor-Parrenin-1950-s_2689505.
AC
Google translation of the accompanying text:

Former French name quartet, is Ravel and Debussy of the
masterpiece, which is the main repertoire of Parenan
quartet. Stereo recording of 1969 has been Tsugiga talks as
the name record, but, this sound source is it than about 20
years also close before the precious mono recording. In the
best of a flowing and of members of the time it is a lineup
elaborate ensemble is really powerful, not Kanjitore in
stereo recording after a great performance that vividness of
one sound one sound is looming to direct. Master: Buddha
PACIFIC reprinted from the LDP-F48. Japan Edition
specification ... with a Japanese band, it also enclosed the
rear surface of the music track list also Japanese also
shown a brief description. (Einsatz Record)
CD will be the domestic press.

[From the information]
Ravel: major to String Quartet
Debussy: String Quartet in G minor
Parenan Quartet (J. Parenan / M. Charpentier / S. Roller /
P. Penasou)
Recording: the 1950s and early
Master: Buddha PACIFIC LDP-F48

---
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c***@gmail.com
2016-08-18 00:46:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by dk
Post by c***@gmail.com
Post by dk
Post by c***@gmail.com
Quatuor Parrenin is the widely accepted
reference for Debussy and Ravel.
No it isn't, unless "widely" is a cognomen of dk. Stick to pianists, Dan.
http://www.forgottenrecords.com/Quatuor-Parrenin--Debussy-Ravel--172.html
dk
You're such a nudnick, Dan! Of course I've heard it. FYI, the "reference" recording is here: http://youtu.be/zVTplB5IGis International String Quartet: Andre Mangeot, violin; Boris Pecker, violin; Frank Howard, viola; Herbert Withers, cello. Rec. London, June, 1927 under the composer's supervision and issued as National Gramophonic Society NGS 78/81. Ravel commented that he was "satisfied as much with the sonority as with the tempi and the nuances." That's "reference," which is not necessarily the same as "best" or "favorite". It does happen to be a fine performance, as are others close in time such as the Capet, Calvet, and Galimir (the last-named also approved by the composer). The Parrenin recording is excellent, as are many many others. My *personal* "reference" (no longer my favorite) for both the Ravel and the Debussy was Juilliard/RCA, from which I learned them.
Now you can insult me again, but perhaps others here will appreciate the information.
AC
No offense intended.
Thanks for all the info.
dk
Then you should try not to sound
quite so much like a Trumpvoter.
It doesn't do much for your credibility...

jdw
dk
2016-08-18 07:22:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by c***@gmail.com
Post by dk
Post by c***@gmail.com
Post by dk
Post by c***@gmail.com
Quatuor Parrenin is the widely accepted
reference for Debussy and Ravel.
No it isn't, unless "widely" is a cognomen of dk. Stick to pianists, Dan.
http://www.forgottenrecords.com/Quatuor-Parrenin--Debussy-Ravel--172.html
dk
You're such a nudnick, Dan! Of course I've heard it. FYI, the "reference" recording is here: http://youtu.be/zVTplB5IGis International String Quartet: Andre Mangeot, violin; Boris Pecker, violin; Frank Howard, viola; Herbert Withers, cello. Rec. London, June, 1927 under the composer's supervision and issued as National Gramophonic Society NGS 78/81. Ravel commented that he was "satisfied as much with the sonority as with the tempi and the nuances." That's "reference," which is not necessarily the same as "best" or "favorite". It does happen to be a fine performance, as are others close in time such as the Capet, Calvet, and Galimir (the last-named also approved by the composer). The Parrenin recording is excellent, as are many many others. My *personal* "reference" (no longer my favorite) for both the Ravel and the Debussy was Juilliard/RCA, from which I learned them.
Now you can insult me again, but perhaps others here will appreciate the information.
No offense intended.
Thanks for all the info.
Then you should try not to sound
quite so much like a Trump voter.
?!?!?!?!?!?!?
Herman
2016-08-18 07:28:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by dk
Post by c***@gmail.com
Then you should try not to sound
quite so much like a Trump voter.
?!?!?!?!?!?!?
Totally locked up in your own views, intolerant of other opinions, and of course the habit of always saying you have this terrific sense of humor.

It's a 100% fit.
dk
2016-08-18 08:29:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Herman
Post by dk
Post by c***@gmail.com
Then you should try not to sound
quite so much like a Trump voter.
?!?!?!?!?!?!?
Totally locked up in your own views,
I don't have views. This is an archaic
concept.
Post by Herman
intolerant of other opinions,
Just about the same as everyone else in
this ng. Yet another case of the kettle
calling the teapot black.
Post by Herman
and of course the habit of always saying
you have this terrific sense of humor.
?!?!?!?!?!?!?
Post by Herman
It's a 100% fit.
Except it isn't. Why would anyone vote for
a bigoted racist megalomaniac idiot like
Donald?

dk
Bob Harper
2016-08-18 19:27:53 UTC
Permalink
On 8/18/16 1:29 AM, dk wrote:
(snip)
Post by dk
Except it isn't. Why would anyone vote for
a bigoted racist megalomaniac idiot like
Donald?
dk
Maybe because he doesn't have a 40-year history of lying as a public or
quasi-pubic official, enabling sexual abuse, playing fast and loose with
national security for personal gain, and weakening the nation's position
in the world by her failures as Secretary of State?

Bob Harper (who has no use for either candidate and is probably going to
write in Mitch Daniels or Paul Ryan)
dk
2016-08-18 20:14:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bob Harper
(snip)
Post by dk
Except it isn't. Why would anyone vote for
a bigoted racist megalomaniac idiot like
Donald?
Maybe because he doesn't have a 40-year history of lying as a public or
quasi-pubic official, enabling sexual abuse, playing fast and loose with
national security for personal gain, and weakening the nation's position
in the world by her failures as Secretary of State?
And would anyone give him a chance to try his hand at it ?!?

dk
O
2016-08-18 20:30:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by dk
Post by Bob Harper
(snip)
Post by dk
Except it isn't. Why would anyone vote for
a bigoted racist megalomaniac idiot like
Donald?
Maybe because he doesn't have a 40-year history of lying as a public or
quasi-pubic official, enabling sexual abuse, playing fast and loose with
national security for personal gain, and weakening the nation's position
in the world by her failures as Secretary of State?
And would anyone give him a chance to try his hand at it ?!?
You're right, by cracky! Only one person in this race has shown she
has the experience of all the above. Let's not let some amateur bungle
it all up. Vote for the expert!

-Owen
Bob Harper
2016-08-18 21:22:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by dk
Post by Bob Harper
(snip)
Post by dk
Except it isn't. Why would anyone vote for
a bigoted racist megalomaniac idiot like
Donald?
Maybe because he doesn't have a 40-year history of lying as a public or
quasi-pubic official, enabling sexual abuse, playing fast and loose with
national security for personal gain, and weakening the nation's position
in the world by her failures as Secretary of State?
And would anyone give him a chance to try his hand at it ?!?
dk
I didn't say that. A choice between being hanged or shot, IMO.

Bob Harper
dk
2016-08-19 05:48:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bob Harper
Post by dk
Post by Bob Harper
(snip)
Post by dk
Except it isn't. Why would anyone vote for
a bigoted racist megalomaniac idiot like
Donald?
Maybe because he doesn't have a 40-year history of lying as a public or
quasi-pubic official, enabling sexual abuse, playing fast and loose with
national security for personal gain, and weakening the nation's position
in the world by her failures as Secretary of State?
And would anyone give him a chance to try his hand at it ?!?
I didn't say that. A choice between being hanged or shot, IMO.
As I said earlier, it is a choice between a petty crook
and a delusional volatile madman. Not a good place to be.

Under such circumstances, the practical approach is to
pick the candidate who is more likely to be manageable
and controllable by their entourage and staff. Hillary
wins, however reluctantly.

The tragedy of this nation is that we have not had a
real president since Dwight Eisenhower. Feel free to
quote.

dk
Herman
2016-08-19 07:11:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by dk
The tragedy of this nation is that we have not had a
real president since Dwight Eisenhower. Feel free to
quote.
dk
true to type, this is yet another truly Trumpian thing to say.

Everything was better in the Fifties. Back then, when a white guy said something everybody else listened. That kind of stuff.

Of course we're in the last months of a president who did very well, considering the amount of non-cooperation he faced. Bill Clinton, some antics notwithstanding, was an excellent prez, too, starting with a giant deficit and leaving the nation with a surplus (and a funny blue dress).
dk
2016-08-19 07:24:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Herman
Post by dk
The tragedy of this nation is that we have not had a
real president since Dwight Eisenhower. Feel free to
quote.
true to type, this is yet another truly Trumpian thing to say.
True to type, hear the village idiot completely miss the
point again! This isn't about the fifties, it is about
Dwight Eisenhower. Your knowledge and understanding of
US history fits entirely inside the tiniest asshole.
Post by Herman
Everything was better in the Fifties. Back then, when
a white guy said something everybody else listened. T
hat kind of stuff.
Bullshit. Again, this has nothing to do with the fifties
vs. some other time. It is about Dwight Eisenhower. And
are you old enough to even remember the fifties? I am.
And I bet you aren't.
Post by Herman
Of course we're in the last months of a president who
did very well, considering the amount of non-cooperation
he faced.
You are delusional.
Post by Herman
Bill Clinton, some antics notwithstanding, was an excellent
prez, too, starting with a giant deficit and leaving the
nation with a surplus (and a funny blue dress).
And you are doubling down.

dk
Bob Harper
2016-08-20 15:40:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by dk
Post by Herman
Post by dk
The tragedy of this nation is that we have not had a
real president since Dwight Eisenhower. Feel free to
quote.
true to type, this is yet another truly Trumpian thing to say.
True to type, hear the village idiot completely miss the
point again! This isn't about the fifties, it is about
Dwight Eisenhower. Your knowledge and understanding of
US history fits entirely inside the tiniest asshole.
Post by Herman
Everything was better in the Fifties. Back then, when
a white guy said something everybody else listened. T
hat kind of stuff.
Bullshit. Again, this has nothing to do with the fifties
vs. some other time. It is about Dwight Eisenhower. And
are you old enough to even remember the fifties? I am.
And I bet you aren't.
Post by Herman
Of course we're in the last months of a president who
did very well, considering the amount of non-cooperation
he faced.
You are delusional.
And exceedingly tiresome.

Bob Harper
Post by dk
Post by Herman
Bill Clinton, some antics notwithstanding, was an excellent
prez, too, starting with a giant deficit and leaving the
nation with a surplus (and a funny blue dress).
And you are doubling down.
dk
Gerard
2016-08-20 15:58:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by dk
Post by Herman
Post by dk
The tragedy of this nation is that we have not had a
real president since Dwight Eisenhower. Feel free to
quote.
true to type, this is yet another truly Trumpian thing to say.
True to type, hear the village idiot completely miss the
point again! This isn't about the fifties, it is about
Dwight Eisenhower. Your knowledge and understanding of
US history fits entirely inside the tiniest asshole.
Post by Herman
Everything was better in the Fifties. Back then, when
a white guy said something everybody else listened. T
hat kind of stuff.
Bullshit. Again, this has nothing to do with the fifties
vs. some other time. It is about Dwight Eisenhower. And
are you old enough to even remember the fifties? I am.
And I bet you aren't.
Post by Herman
Of course we're in the last months of a president who
did very well, considering the amount of non-cooperation
he faced.
You are delusional.
And exceedingly tiresome.

=================

The whole thread has become exceedingly tiresome by the usual USA
participants with their usual village news.
g***@gmail.com
2016-08-19 21:48:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by dk
Post by Bob Harper
Post by dk
Post by Bob Harper
(snip)
Post by dk
Except it isn't. Why would anyone vote for
a bigoted racist megalomaniac idiot like
Donald?
Maybe because he doesn't have a 40-year history of lying as a public or
quasi-pubic official, enabling sexual abuse, playing fast and loose with
national security for personal gain, and weakening the nation's position
in the world by her failures as Secretary of State?
And would anyone give him a chance to try his hand at it ?!?
I didn't say that. A choice between being hanged or shot, IMO.
As I said earlier, it is a choice between a petty crook
and a delusional volatile madman. Not a good place to be.
Under such circumstances, the practical approach is to
pick the candidate who is more likely to be manageable
and controllable by their entourage and staff. Hillary
wins, however reluctantly.
The tragedy of this nation is that we have not had a
real president since Dwight Eisenhower. Feel free to
quote.
dk
According to this recent article:

- Summarizing Eisenhower’s policies in Laos, Rust concludes, “In a neutrally inclined country, promoting the political career of a military officer primarily because of his strong anticommunist convictions—rather than his competence, honesty, wisdom, or popular support—turned out to be a very bad idea both for Laos and for the United States”.

http://historynewsnetwork.org/article/163077#sthash.SyOTAK0F.JQE6wgLL.dpuf
Bob Harper
2016-08-20 15:39:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by dk
Post by Bob Harper
Post by dk
Post by Bob Harper
(snip)
Post by dk
Except it isn't. Why would anyone vote for
a bigoted racist megalomaniac idiot like
Donald?
Maybe because he doesn't have a 40-year history of lying as a public or
quasi-pubic official, enabling sexual abuse, playing fast and loose with
national security for personal gain, and weakening the nation's position
in the world by her failures as Secretary of State?
And would anyone give him a chance to try his hand at it ?!?
I didn't say that. A choice between being hanged or shot, IMO.
As I said earlier, it is a choice between a petty crook
and a delusional volatile madman. Not a good place to be.
Under such circumstances, the practical approach is to
pick the candidate who is more likely to be manageable
and controllable by their entourage and staff. Hillary
wins, however reluctantly.
That is where I tend to disagree. Herself, supported by a fawning media,
will follow the well-known Clinton script: deny, delay, and when the
truth comes out, dismiss as 'old news'. She'd make Reagan look like Velcro.

Trump, on the other hand, would have the press on him 'like white on
rice' as I read in a recent commentary. He would also have tremendous
pushback from Democrats AND Republicans. He would likely deserve both
and would be rather hamstrung in short order--which would not be a bad
thing.

Neither prospect is appetizing in the slightest. Having heard an
interview this morning on NPR, I will be taking a good look at Evan
McMullin, who struck me as someone I could actually vote FOR.
Post by dk
The tragedy of this nation is that we have not had a
real president since Dwight Eisenhower.
The last US President who really understood his constitutional duties,
at least as far as domestic policy is concerned, was Calvin Coolidge.

Bob Harper

Feel free to
Post by dk
quote.
dk
O
2016-08-19 21:45:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by dk
Post by Herman
Post by dk
Post by c***@gmail.com
Then you should try not to sound
quite so much like a Trump voter.
?!?!?!?!?!?!?
Totally locked up in your own views,
I don't have views. This is an archaic
concept.
Post by Herman
intolerant of other opinions,
Just about the same as everyone else in
this ng. Yet another case of the kettle
calling the teapot black.
Post by Herman
and of course the habit of always saying
you have this terrific sense of humor.
?!?!?!?!?!?!?
Post by Herman
It's a 100% fit.
Except it isn't. Why would anyone vote for
a bigoted racist megalomaniac idiot like
Donald?
I'm voting for Trump just to piss off John Wiser.

-Owen
Frank Berger
2016-08-19 22:31:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by O
Post by dk
Post by Herman
Post by dk
Post by c***@gmail.com
Then you should try not to sound
quite so much like a Trump voter.
?!?!?!?!?!?!?
Totally locked up in your own views,
I don't have views. This is an archaic
concept.
Post by Herman
intolerant of other opinions,
Just about the same as everyone else in
this ng. Yet another case of the kettle
calling the teapot black.
Post by Herman
and of course the habit of always saying
you have this terrific sense of humor.
?!?!?!?!?!?!?
Post by Herman
It's a 100% fit.
Except it isn't. Why would anyone vote for
a bigoted racist megalomaniac idiot like
Donald?
I'm voting for Trump just to piss off John Wiser.
-Owen
What would a non-bigoted racist or a bigoted non-racist be?

---
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r***@gmail.com
2016-08-20 16:25:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Frank Berger
Post by O
Post by dk
Post by Herman
Post by dk
Post by c***@gmail.com
Then you should try not to sound
quite so much like a Trump voter.
?!?!?!?!?!?!?
Totally locked up in your own views,
I don't have views. This is an archaic
concept.
Post by Herman
intolerant of other opinions,
Just about the same as everyone else in
this ng. Yet another case of the kettle
calling the teapot black.
Post by Herman
and of course the habit of always saying
you have this terrific sense of humor.
?!?!?!?!?!?!?
Post by Herman
It's a 100% fit.
Except it isn't. Why would anyone vote for
a bigoted racist megalomaniac idiot like
Donald?
I'm voting for Trump just to piss off John Wiser.
-Owen
What would a non-bigoted racist or a bigoted non-racist be?
---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus
Well in some parts of the world he would be a devout Roman Catholic, and in others (or sometimes the same ones- Ulster for instance) he'd be a devout Presbyterian. You can be a religious bigot without being a racist, you can be a racist while completely unreligious.
graham
2016-08-20 01:39:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by O
Post by dk
Post by Herman
Post by dk
Post by c***@gmail.com
Then you should try not to sound
quite so much like a Trump voter.
?!?!?!?!?!?!?
Totally locked up in your own views,
I don't have views. This is an archaic
concept.
Post by Herman
intolerant of other opinions,
Just about the same as everyone else in
this ng. Yet another case of the kettle
calling the teapot black.
Post by Herman
and of course the habit of always saying
you have this terrific sense of humor.
?!?!?!?!?!?!?
Post by Herman
It's a 100% fit.
Except it isn't. Why would anyone vote for
a bigoted racist megalomaniac idiot like
Donald?
I'm voting for Trump just to piss off John Wiser.
-Owen
Let's face it, you'd vote for a broom handle if it was painted in GOP color.
c***@gmail.com
2016-08-20 02:34:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by graham
Post by O
Post by dk
Post by Herman
Post by dk
Post by c***@gmail.com
Then you should try not to sound
quite so much like a Trump voter.
?!?!?!?!?!?!?
Totally locked up in your own views,
I don't have views. This is an archaic
concept.
Post by Herman
intolerant of other opinions,
Just about the same as everyone else in
this ng. Yet another case of the kettle
calling the teapot black.
Post by Herman
and of course the habit of always saying
you have this terrific sense of humor.
?!?!?!?!?!?!?
Post by Herman
It's a 100% fit.
Except it isn't. Why would anyone vote for
a bigoted racist megalomaniac idiot like
Donald?
I'm voting for Trump just to piss off John Wiser.
-Owen
Let's face it, you'd vote for a broom handle if it was painted in GOP color.
Now, now, Graham, don't sell a good broom handle short. It's potentially more useful and less offensive than most GOP Congresspersons. For example, a broom handle is quite unlikely to address the house in favor of Intelligent Design.

jdw
O
2016-08-20 02:48:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by graham
Post by O
Post by dk
Post by Herman
Post by dk
Post by c***@gmail.com
Then you should try not to sound
quite so much like a Trump voter.
?!?!?!?!?!?!?
Totally locked up in your own views,
I don't have views. This is an archaic
concept.
Post by Herman
intolerant of other opinions,
Just about the same as everyone else in
this ng. Yet another case of the kettle
calling the teapot black.
Post by Herman
and of course the habit of always saying
you have this terrific sense of humor.
?!?!?!?!?!?!?
Post by Herman
It's a 100% fit.
Except it isn't. Why would anyone vote for
a bigoted racist megalomaniac idiot like
Donald?
I'm voting for Trump just to piss off John Wiser.
-Owen
Let's face it, you'd vote for a broom handle if it was painted in GOP color.
I must confess, I did vote for Sanders in the primary. It was a moment
of weakness, but the broom handle wasn't on the ballot.

-Owen

P.S. Too bad he got ripped off.

-O
Bob Harper
2016-08-20 15:43:15 UTC
Permalink
On 8/19/16 2:45 PM, O wrote:
(snip)
Post by O
I'm voting for Trump just to piss off John Wiser.
-Owen
That is an almost sufficient reason to do so :)

Bob Harper
Gerard
2016-08-18 08:47:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by dk
Post by c***@gmail.com
On Wednesday, August 17, 2016 at 10:47:59 AM UTC-7,
Post by c***@gmail.com
Quatuor Parrenin is the widely accepted
reference for Debussy and Ravel.
No it isn't, unless "widely" is a cognomen of dk. Stick to pianists, Dan.
http://www.forgottenrecords.com/Quatuor-Parrenin--Debussy-Ravel--172.html
dk
You're such a nudnick, Dan! Of course I've heard it. FYI, the
http://youtu.be/zVTplB5IGis International String
Quartet: Andre Mangeot, violin; Boris Pecker, violin; Frank Howard,
viola; Herbert Withers, cello. Rec. London, June, 1927 under the
composer's supervision and issued as National Gramophonic Society NGS
78/81. Ravel commented that he was "satisfied as much with the sonority
as with the tempi and the nuances." That's "reference," which is not
necessarily the same as "best" or "favorite". It does happen to be a
fine performance, as are others close in time such as the Capet, Calvet,
and Galimir (the last-named also approved by the composer). The
Parrenin recording is excellent, as are many many others. My *personal*
"reference" (no longer my favorite) for both the Ravel and the Debussy
was Juilliard/RCA, from which I learned them.
Now you can insult me again, but perhaps others here will appreciate the information.
AC
No offense intended.
Thanks for all the info.
dk
Then you should try not to sound
quite so much like a Trumpvoter.
It doesn't do much for your credibility...

===================

Since when does he have any?
dk
2016-08-17 20:37:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by c***@gmail.com
My *personal* "reference" (no longer my favorite) for
both the Ravel and the Debussy was Juilliard/RCA,
from which I learned them.
I heard the Juilliard play them live during the
1960s and 1970s. This was the post-RCA ensemble.
While these were excellent performances, I found
them a little too intense and energetic while
lacking a bit in fluidity and sensuality one
(or at least I) expect to hear in French music.
I will admit that this may not be what the
composers intended, as the recordings left
by Ravel sound quite a bit drier and more
pointillistic than most performers play
his music nowadays.

I suppose I may have a subconscious bias
towards French performers in French music.

dk
Gerard
2016-08-17 18:29:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Herman
Anybody heard the recently released Ysaye Qtt disc? (Debussy, Faur�,
Stravinsky.) This ensemble is, IMO, first-rate.
This Wigmore Hall live cd by the Quatuor Ysaye is terrific,
most of all in the Debussy, which isn't played as delicately
pretty as has become standard.
Wigmore Hall is problematic for string quartets
because of its reverberation caused by its shape
and high ceiling.
Post by Herman
I'm not sure I find everything the Q. Ysaye have done first
class (they can be a little didactic at times, such as in
their Mendelssohn), but in this live recording they are
great. The group disbanded in Jan 2014.
Quator Parrenin is the widely accepted
reference for Debussy and Ravel.
=====================

Widely is only 2 meters wide.
Herman
2016-08-17 19:20:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by dk
Post by Herman
Anybody heard the recently released Ysaye Qtt disc? (Debussy, Faur�,
Stravinsky.) This ensemble is, IMO, first-rate.
This Wigmore Hall live cd by the Quatuor Ysaye is terrific,
most of all in the Debussy, which isn't played as delicately
pretty as has become standard.
Wigmore Hall is problematic for string quartets
because of its reverberation caused by its shape
and high ceiling.
only in your mind.

stick to long-haired piano bangers
dk
2016-08-17 19:24:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Herman
Post by dk
Post by Herman
Anybody heard the recently released Ysaye Qtt disc? (Debussy, Faur�,
Stravinsky.) This ensemble is, IMO, first-rate.
This Wigmore Hall live cd by the Quatuor Ysaye is terrific,
most of all in the Debussy, which isn't played as delicately
pretty as has become standard.
Wigmore Hall is problematic for string quartets
because of its reverberation caused by its shape
and high ceiling.
only in your mind.
Having been there many times, I know
the hall quite well.
Post by Herman
stick to long-haired piano bangers
Racist as usual.

dk
Herman
2016-08-18 07:34:19 UTC
Permalink
The notion that Debussy should sound "fluid and sensual" as all French music is a cliche, and one that you'll never hear the French themselves use.

For a long time the Philips recording by the Italiano Quartet used to be the standard version, just because they were "fluid and sensual", and also, very slow.

The two recordings I like best, the past ten years, are the one by the Ebene and the live Ysaye. Neither overdo the sensual thing and the Ysaye is a little strident at times, which I suspect is part of the music.

Both recordings also feature the great Faure quartet, which of course is a work of the highest maturity, whereas the Debussy quartet is a rather youthful piece, no matter how accomplished it is.
dk
2016-08-18 08:33:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Herman
The notion that Debussy should sound "fluid and sensual" as
all French music is a cliche, and one that you'll never hear
the French themselves use.
And I couldn't care less. Debussy should sound exactly as I like
it -- whether anyone else agrees or not. A chacun ses oreilles.
Post by Herman
For a long time the Philips recording by the Italiano Quartet
used to be the standard version,
Per The Gramophone.
Post by Herman
just because they were "fluid and sensual", and also, very slow.
No, they weren't. This is what the British music reviewers thought
about them. The Quartetto Italiano was the string quartet equivalent
of Claudio Arthritis.
Post by Herman
The two recordings I like best, the past ten years, are the one
by the Ebene and the live Ysaye. Neither overdo the sensual thing
and the Ysaye is a little strident at times, which I suspect is
part of the music.
Whatever makes one happy makes one happy.

dk
JohnGavin
2016-08-18 14:51:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by dk
Post by Herman
The notion that Debussy should sound "fluid and sensual" as
all French music is a cliche, and one that you'll never hear
the French themselves use.
And I couldn't care less. Debussy should sound exactly as I like
it -- whether anyone else agrees or not. A chacun ses oreilles.
Post by Herman
For a long time the Philips recording by the Italiano Quartet
used to be the standard version,
Per The Gramophone.
Post by Herman
just because they were "fluid and sensual", and also, very slow.
No, they weren't. This is what the British music reviewers thought
about them. The Quartetto Italiano was the string quartet equivalent
of Claudio Arthritis.
Post by Herman
The two recordings I like best, the past ten years, are the one
by the Ebene and the live Ysaye. Neither overdo the sensual thing
and the Ysaye is a little strident at times, which I suspect is
part of the music.
Whatever makes one happy makes one happy.
dk
You always seem to do a jig around the objective / subjective line. I'm not sure whether it is a conscious or unconscious dance. I know that it confounds and annoys people - partly because you're very forceful in your presentation, and very absolute in your opinions. "Long been the widely accepted reference recording"----- then "whatever makes one happy makes one happy". Then a dose of disrespect to Arrau fans (I'm not one, by the way) with "Claudio Arthritis". All of this leaves some posters feeling like they've been slapped around. Otherwise, I do often find your views interesting Dan.
Frank Berger
2016-08-18 16:09:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by JohnGavin
Post by dk
Post by Herman
The notion that Debussy should sound "fluid and sensual" as
all French music is a cliche, and one that you'll never hear
the French themselves use.
And I couldn't care less. Debussy should sound exactly as I like
it -- whether anyone else agrees or not. A chacun ses oreilles.
Post by Herman
For a long time the Philips recording by the Italiano Quartet
used to be the standard version,
Per The Gramophone.
Post by Herman
just because they were "fluid and sensual", and also, very slow.
No, they weren't. This is what the British music reviewers thought
about them. The Quartetto Italiano was the string quartet equivalent
of Claudio Arthritis.
Post by Herman
The two recordings I like best, the past ten years, are the one
by the Ebene and the live Ysaye. Neither overdo the sensual thing
and the Ysaye is a little strident at times, which I suspect is
part of the music.
Whatever makes one happy makes one happy.
dk
You always seem to do a jig around the objective / subjective line. I'm not sure whether it is a conscious or unconscious dance. I know that it confounds and annoys people - partly because you're very forceful in your presentation, and very absolute in your opinions. "Long been the widely accepted reference recording"----- then "whatever makes one happy makes one happy". Then a dose of disrespect to Arrau fans (I'm not one, by the way) with "Claudio Arthritis". All of this leaves some posters feeling like they've been slapped around. Otherwise, I do often find your views interesting Dan.
Personally, I find your scolding more annoying than Dan's
forcefulness. And you mis-attributed the quote "Long been
the widely accepted reference recording" to Dan, when it was
Herman who said it. Calling Arrau arthritic "insults"
Arrau, I suppose, but not his fans. It's not personal. I
don't understand your code of ethics at all.

---
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https://www.avast.com/antivirus
dk
2016-08-18 16:51:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by JohnGavin
Post by JohnGavin
Post by dk
Post by Herman
The notion that Debussy should sound "fluid and sensual" as
all French music is a cliche, and one that you'll never hear
the French themselves use.
And I couldn't care less. Debussy should sound exactly as I like
it -- whether anyone else agrees or not. A chacun ses oreilles.
Post by Herman
For a long time the Philips recording by the Italiano Quartet
used to be the standard version,
Per The Gramophone.
Post by Herman
just because they were "fluid and sensual", and also, very slow.
No, they weren't. This is what the British music reviewers thought
about them. The Quartetto Italiano was the string quartet equivalent
of Claudio Arthritis.
Post by Herman
The two recordings I like best, the past ten years, are the one
by the Ebene and the live Ysaye. Neither overdo the sensual thing
and the Ysaye is a little strident at times, which I suspect is
part of the music.
Whatever makes one happy makes one happy.
You always seem to do a jig around the objective / subjective line.
There is no "objective" in enjoying art.
Post by JohnGavin
Post by JohnGavin
I'm not sure whether it is a conscious or unconscious dance. I know
that it confounds and annoys people - partly because you're very
forceful in your presentation, and very absolute in your opinions.
I strive to state my opinions in the briefest way possible.
Why waste time and bandwidth? I have no intent of forcing
them on anyone. Pick what you agree with, debate what you
don't like, and go to sleep over the rest.
Post by JohnGavin
Post by JohnGavin
"Long been the widely accepted reference recording"----- then
"whatever makes one happy makes one happy".
No contradiction there. "Long accepted as reference by many people"
is a statistical summary. It doesn't argue individuals should like
something they don't.
Post by JohnGavin
Then a dose of disrespect to Arrau fans (I'm not one, by the way)
?!?!?!?
Post by JohnGavin
with "Claudio Arthritis". All of this leaves some posters feeling
like they've been slapped around.
So many people in this ng are thin skinned and take everything
personally. It's no skin off anyone's nose if I consider Arrau
and Kempff to be some of the worst pianists of note.
Post by JohnGavin
Post by JohnGavin
Otherwise, I do often find your views interesting Dan.
Thanks!
Post by JohnGavin
Personally, I find your scolding more annoying than Dan's
forcefulness. And you mis-attributed the quote "Long been
the widely accepted reference recording" to Dan, when it
was Herman who said it.
No, I said it all right. Confusing indentation.
Post by JohnGavin
Calling Arrau arthritic "insults" Arrau, I suppose,
It doesn't. It diagnoses him. He is 6 feet under and
long past the point when he might have felt insulted.
Post by JohnGavin
but not his fans.
Of course not.
Post by JohnGavin
It's not personal.
Of course not. As I said so many times, what makes
one happy makes one happy. If someone likes Arrau,
Backhaus, Brendel, Curzon, Haskil, Kempff, Lipatti,
LL, Perahia, Pollini, YW, etc... all the power to
them. They have an easier time and happier life
finding the music they like and listening to it
than perfectionists like your truly and a few
others around here.
Post by JohnGavin
I don't understand your code of ethics at all.
Ethics on r.m.c.r? C'mon! Did you think r.m.c.r.
is a version of the British Parliament? ;-)

dk
Frank Berger
2016-08-18 18:25:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by dk
Post by JohnGavin
Post by JohnGavin
Post by dk
Post by Herman
The notion that Debussy should sound "fluid and sensual" as
all French music is a cliche, and one that you'll never hear
the French themselves use.
And I couldn't care less. Debussy should sound exactly as I like
it -- whether anyone else agrees or not. A chacun ses oreilles.
Post by Herman
For a long time the Philips recording by the Italiano Quartet
used to be the standard version,
Per The Gramophone.
Post by Herman
just because they were "fluid and sensual", and also, very slow.
No, they weren't. This is what the British music reviewers thought
about them. The Quartetto Italiano was the string quartet equivalent
of Claudio Arthritis.
Post by Herman
The two recordings I like best, the past ten years, are the one
by the Ebene and the live Ysaye. Neither overdo the sensual thing
and the Ysaye is a little strident at times, which I suspect is
part of the music.
Whatever makes one happy makes one happy.
You always seem to do a jig around the objective / subjective line.
There is no "objective" in enjoying art.
Post by JohnGavin
Post by JohnGavin
I'm not sure whether it is a conscious or unconscious dance. I know
that it confounds and annoys people - partly because you're very
forceful in your presentation, and very absolute in your opinions.
I strive to state my opinions in the briefest way possible.
Why waste time and bandwidth? I have no intent of forcing
them on anyone. Pick what you agree with, debate what you
don't like, and go to sleep over the rest.
Post by JohnGavin
Post by JohnGavin
"Long been the widely accepted reference recording"----- then
"whatever makes one happy makes one happy".
No contradiction there. "Long accepted as reference by many people"
is a statistical summary. It doesn't argue individuals should like
something they don't.
Post by JohnGavin
Then a dose of disrespect to Arrau fans (I'm not one, by the way)
?!?!?!?
Post by JohnGavin
with "Claudio Arthritis". All of this leaves some posters feeling
like they've been slapped around.
So many people in this ng are thin skinned and take everything
personally. It's no skin off anyone's nose if I consider Arrau
and Kempff to be some of the worst pianists of note.
Post by JohnGavin
Post by JohnGavin
Otherwise, I do often find your views interesting Dan.
Thanks!
Post by JohnGavin
Personally, I find your scolding more annoying than Dan's
forcefulness. And you mis-attributed the quote "Long been
the widely accepted reference recording" to Dan, when it
was Herman who said it.
No, I said it all right. Confusing indentation.
The color coding in Thunderbird makes it look like Herman
said it. My bad.
Post by dk
Post by JohnGavin
Calling Arrau arthritic "insults" Arrau, I suppose,
It doesn't. It diagnoses him. He is 6 feet under and
long past the point when he might have felt insulted.
That's why I quoted "insults."
Post by dk
Post by JohnGavin
but not his fans.
Of course not.
Post by JohnGavin
It's not personal.
Of course not. As I said so many times, what makes
one happy makes one happy. If someone likes Arrau,
Backhaus, Brendel, Curzon, Haskil, Kempff, Lipatti,
LL, Perahia, Pollini, YW, etc... all the power to
them. They have an easier time and happier life
finding the music they like and listening to it
than perfectionists like your truly and a few
others around here.
Post by JohnGavin
I don't understand your code of ethics at all.
Ethics on r.m.c.r? C'mon! Did you think r.m.c.r.
is a version of the British Parliament? ;-)
dk
Every individual should have ethical standards.

---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
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Tatonik
2016-08-18 19:10:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by dk
Post by JohnGavin
Calling Arrau arthritic "insults" Arrau, I suppose,
It doesn't. It diagnoses him. He is 6 feet under and
long past the point when he might have felt insulted.
Post by JohnGavin
but not his fans.
Of course not.
Speaking of Arrau, I recall one of my music professors telling me that
he had purchased Arrau's complete set of Debussy from Rose Records at
considerable expense and listened to a good portion of it. Arrau's
interpretations so appalled him that he went back the next day to return
it. He was as strong-willed as he was opinionated, and after some
discussion the store agreed to take it back. I have to wonder exactly
how that conversation went. Are bad interpretations grounds for
returns? Could they be likened to manufacturing defects?
g***@gmail.com
2016-08-19 09:15:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Herman
The notion that Debussy should sound "fluid and sensual" as all French music is a cliche, and one that you'll never hear the French themselves use.
For a long time the Philips recording by the Italiano Quartet used to be the standard version, just because they were "fluid and sensual", and also, very slow.
The two recordings I like best, the past ten years, are the one by the Ebene and the live Ysaye. Neither overdo the sensual thing and the Ysaye is a little strident at times, which I suspect is part of the music.
Both recordings also feature the great Faure quartet, which of course is a work of the highest maturity, whereas the Debussy quartet is a rather youthful piece, no matter how accomplished it is.
The following recent article begins:

- What makes French music French?...

Debussy identified a significant trait when he wrote, “Music should humbly seek to please … Beauty must appeal to the senses, must provide us with immediate enjoyment, must impress us or insinuate itself into us without any effort on our part.”

This Gallic sensuality united the austere Romanticism of Fauré’s “Piano Trio,” the fragmentary mysticism of Dutilleux’s “Ainsi la Nuit,” and the glorious synthesis of birdsong, divine fervor, and compositional artifice in Messiaen’s “Quatuor pour la Fin du Temps.”

http://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/news/2016/aug/17/la-jolla-music-society-summerfest-french/
Herman
2016-08-19 10:25:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by g***@gmail.com
Post by Herman
The notion that Debussy should sound "fluid and sensual" as all French music is a cliche, and one that you'll never hear the French themselves use.
For a long time the Philips recording by the Italiano Quartet used to be the standard version, just because they were "fluid and sensual", and also, very slow.
The two recordings I like best, the past ten years, are the one by the Ebene and the live Ysaye. Neither overdo the sensual thing and the Ysaye is a little strident at times, which I suspect is part of the music.
Both recordings also feature the great Faure quartet, which of course is a work of the highest maturity, whereas the Debussy quartet is a rather youthful piece, no matter how accomplished it is.
- What makes French music French?...
Debussy identified a significant trait when he wrote, “Music should humbly seek to please … Beauty must appeal to the senses, must provide us with immediate enjoyment, must impress us or insinuate itself into us without any effort on our part.”
This Gallic sensuality united the austere Romanticism of Fauré’s “Piano Trio,” the fragmentary mysticism of Dutilleux’s “Ainsi la Nuit,” and the glorious synthesis of birdsong, divine fervor, and compositional artifice in Messiaen’s “Quatuor pour la Fin du Temps.”
http://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/news/2016/aug/17/la-jolla-music-society-summerfest-french/
This is just a crock.

J.S.Bach's music appeals to the senses, too. You know, hearing?

To go from there to "Gallic sensuality" is just silly stereotyping.
Herman
2016-08-17 19:23:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by dk
Post by Herman
I'm not sure I find everything the Q. Ysaye have done first
class (they can be a little didactic at times, such as in
their Mendelssohn), but in this live recording they are
great. The group disbanded in Jan 2014.
Quator Parrenin is the widely accepted
reference for Debussy and Ravel.
Look, what we were talking about is interesting, delectable recordings.

Not the "reference" recording, or the guys who "own" the piece.

That's for people who insecure about whether they're listenign the the one and only.
dk
2016-08-17 19:27:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Herman
Post by Herman
I'm not sure I find everything the Q. Ysaye have done first
class (they can be a little didactic at times, such as in
their Mendelssohn), but in this live recording they are
great. The group disbanded in Jan 2014.
Quatuor Parrenin is the widely accepted
reference for Debussy and Ravel.
Look, what we were talking about is interesting,
delectable recordings.
You are making a specious distinction.
The Parrenin is quite interesting and
delectable, though it might not appeal
to metronomic Teutonic minds like yours.
Post by Herman
Not the "reference" recording, or the guys who
"own" the piece.
This is commonly used jargon on r.m.c.r.
that only retarded idiots like you are
not capable of parsing (or pretend to).
Post by Herman
That's for people who insecure about whether
they're listening the the one and only.
Check your mirror.

dk
O
2016-08-18 19:30:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Herman
Anybody heard the recently released Ysaye Qtt disc? (Debussy, Faur?,
Stravinsky.) This ensemble is, IMO, first-rate.
This Wigmore Hall live cd by the Quatuor Ysaye is terrific, most of all in
the Debussy, which isn't played as delicately pretty as has become standard.
I'm not sure I find everything the Q. Ysaye have done first class (they can
be a little didactic at times, such as in their Mendelssohn), but in this
live recording they are great. The group disbanded in Jan 2014.
Herman -- is this you pulling a gggg and responding to a 7 year old
request?

-Owen
O
2016-08-19 21:48:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by O
Post by Herman
Anybody heard the recently released Ysaye Qtt disc? (Debussy, Faur?,
Stravinsky.) This ensemble is, IMO, first-rate.
This Wigmore Hall live cd by the Quatuor Ysaye is terrific, most of all in
the Debussy, which isn't played as delicately pretty as has become standard.
I'm not sure I find everything the Q. Ysaye have done first class (they can
be a little didactic at times, such as in their Mendelssohn), but in this
live recording they are great. The group disbanded in Jan 2014.
Herman -- is this you pulling a gggg and responding to a 7 year old
request?
Oops! Never mind. I saw the original gggg post.

-Owen
Rugby
2009-06-12 12:25:19 UTC
Permalink
On Jun 8, 3:12 pm, Richard <***@gmail.com> wrote:

FWW, this July 30 the Ebene Quartet will play the Ravel, Debussy, and
Faure Op.121 quartets in one recital at the 2009 Verbier Festival.
Hope that is one they televise on medici.tv.

Rugby
Gerard
2009-06-07 09:46:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andy Evans
I'm probably due for a fresh performance of these works. I heard
excerpts from the Belcea Qt which sounded nice. Hagen is a bit syrupy,
Cleveland a bit bland etc etc. I used to have the Vlach recording
which I liked a lot - not sure if that's still available.
Anyway, what are your favourites?
andy
Carmina Quartet, Denon. (Not available of course ;-( )
Johannes Roehl
2009-06-07 10:39:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gerard
Post by Andy Evans
I'm probably due for a fresh performance of these works. I heard
excerpts from the Belcea Qt which sounded nice. Hagen is a bit syrupy,
Cleveland a bit bland etc etc. I used to have the Vlach recording
which I liked a lot - not sure if that's still available.
Anyway, what are your favourites?
andy
Carmina Quartet, Denon. (Not available of course ;-( )
AFAIK this has been re-issued by Brilliant as a twofer with piano trios.

Johannes
Gerard
2009-06-07 10:55:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Johannes Roehl
Post by Gerard
Post by Andy Evans
I'm probably due for a fresh performance of these works. I heard
excerpts from the Belcea Qt which sounded nice. Hagen is a bit
syrupy, Cleveland a bit bland etc etc. I used to have the Vlach
recording which I liked a lot - not sure if that's still
available.
Anyway, what are your favourites?
andy
Carmina Quartet, Denon. (Not available of course ;-( )
AFAIK this has been re-issued by Brilliant as a twofer with piano trios.
Johannes
You're right. I have never seen this.

http://records.joanrecords.com/epages/joan.storefront/EN/Product/8200
Andy Evans
2009-06-07 11:14:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Thornhill
If you're looking for fresh, check out Quatuor Ebene on Virgin.
I've been listening to bleeding chunks on amazon, and I do like
Quatuor Ebene - nice, very good pizz
Belcea Qt - light and atmospheric, maybe lacks a bit of character
Emerson - very impressive
Vlach - really good
Parkany Qt (Praga) - interesting - a contender, has character SACD

????
Talich - haven't heard
Hollywood - haven't heard
Guarneri - only heard a short clip
Leipzig - good in the Debussy but no Ravel (Faure etc)
Berg - certainly very good but not sure it's a keeper. Much nervous
energy, restless
Aurelia Saxophone Qt - I'm speechless....


Not so keen on
Tokyo - impressive playing but don't feel they get to the heart of the
music
Hagen - too sweet
Cleveland - lovely ensemble but bland
Juillard - very good but not quite my taste
Budapest - also very good but looking for something different
Italian - too emphatic
Borodin - not my taste
St Petersburg - generic
Kodaly - generic
Lindsays - generic
Keller - bit fast and slick, and slow bits drag
Stuyvesant - sound too dim, but not a great one
Capet - a little disappointing from such a good ensemble, and sound
clear but dated
Camina - musical flow sounds strangely disconnected
Paris Opera Qt - like their approach but not everything they do

Where do I go from here? All this is based on excepts. Also what's the
Talich and Hollywood like
Gerard
2009-06-07 11:18:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andy Evans
Post by Thornhill
If you're looking for fresh, check out Quatuor Ebene on Virgin.
I've been listening to bleeding chunks on amazon, and I do like
Quatuor Ebene - nice, very good pizz
Belcea Qt - light and atmospheric, maybe lacks a bit of character
Emerson - very impressive
Vlach - really good
Parkany Qt (Praga) - interesting - a contender, has character SACD
????
Talich - haven't heard
Hollywood - haven't heard
Guarneri - only heard a short clip
Leipzig - good in the Debussy but no Ravel (Faure etc)
Berg - certainly very good but not sure it's a keeper. Much nervous
energy, restless
Aurelia Saxophone Qt - I'm speechless....
Not so keen on
Tokyo - impressive playing but don't feel they get to the heart of the
music
Hagen - too sweet
Cleveland - lovely ensemble but bland
Juillard - very good but not quite my taste
Budapest - also very good but looking for something different
Italian - too emphatic
Borodin - not my taste
St Petersburg - generic
Kodaly - generic
Lindsays - generic
Keller - bit fast and slick, and slow bits drag
Stuyvesant - sound too dim, but not a great one
Capet - a little disappointing from such a good ensemble, and sound
clear but dated
Camina - musical flow sounds strangely disconnected
Paris Opera Qt - like their approach but not everything they do
Where do I go from here?
Maybe you should give up. Nothing seems to be good enough.
BTW what do you mean by "generic"?
EM
2009-06-07 11:25:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andy Evans
Where do I go from here? All this is based on excepts.
Take more time and try a few complete recordings?

EM
santiago538
2009-06-07 22:37:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Thornhill
If you're looking for fresh, check out Quatuor Ebene on Virgin.
I've been listening to  bleeding chunks on amazon, and I do like
Quatuor Ebene - nice, very good pizz
Belcea Qt - light and atmospheric, maybe lacks a bit of character
Emerson - very impressive
Vlach - really good
Parkany Qt (Praga) - interesting - a contender, has character SACD
????
Talich - haven't heard
Hollywood - haven't heard
Guarneri - only heard a short clip
Leipzig - good in the Debussy but no Ravel (Faure etc)
Berg - certainly very good but not sure it's a keeper. Much nervous
energy, restless
Aurelia Saxophone Qt - I'm speechless....
Not so keen on
Tokyo - impressive playing but don't feel they get to the heart of the
music
Hagen - too sweet
Cleveland - lovely ensemble but bland
Perhaps too middle-of-the-road, but I love the ensemble--four matched
Strads once owned by Paganini--to describe it as "bland"!
Juillard - very good but not quite my taste
Budapest - also very good but looking for something different
Italian - too emphatic
Borodin - not my taste
St Petersburg - generic
Kodaly - generic
Lindsays - generic
Keller - bit fast and slick, and slow bits drag
Stuyvesant - sound too dim, but not a great one
Capet - a little disappointing from such a good ensemble, and sound
clear but dated
Camina - musical flow sounds strangely disconnected
Paris Opera Qt - like their approach but not everything they do
Where do I go from here? All this is based on excepts. Also what's the
Talich and Hollywood like
Tom Deacon
2009-06-07 23:51:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by santiago538
Post by Thornhill
If you're looking for fresh, check out Quatuor Ebene on Virgin.
I've been listening to  bleeding chunks on amazon, and I do like
Quatuor Ebene - nice, very good pizz
Belcea Qt - light and atmospheric, maybe lacks a bit of character
Emerson - very impressive
Vlach - really good
Parkany Qt (Praga) - interesting - a contender, has character SACD
????
Talich - haven't heard
Hollywood - haven't heard
Guarneri - only heard a short clip
Leipzig - good in the Debussy but no Ravel (Faure etc)
Berg - certainly very good but not sure it's a keeper. Much nervous
energy, restless
Aurelia Saxophone Qt - I'm speechless....
Not so keen on
Tokyo - impressive playing but don't feel they get to the heart of the
music
Hagen - too sweet
Cleveland - lovely ensemble but bland
Perhaps too middle-of-the-road, but I love the ensemble--four matched
Strads once owned by Paganini--to describe it as "bland"!
Sometimes there is no accounting for ignorance, or taste.

TD
Post by santiago538
Juillard - very good but not quite my taste
Budapest - also very good but looking for something different
Italian - too emphatic
Borodin - not my taste
St Petersburg - generic
Kodaly - generic
Lindsays - generic
Keller - bit fast and slick, and slow bits drag
Stuyvesant - sound too dim, but not a great one
Capet - a little disappointing from such a good ensemble, and sound
clear but dated
Camina - musical flow sounds strangely disconnected
Paris Opera Qt - like their approach but not everything they do
Where do I go from here? All this is based on excepts. Also what's the
Talich and Hollywood like
Bob Harper
2009-06-07 16:09:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gerard
Post by Andy Evans
I'm probably due for a fresh performance of these works. I heard
excerpts from the Belcea Qt which sounded nice. Hagen is a bit syrupy,
Cleveland a bit bland etc etc. I used to have the Vlach recording
which I liked a lot - not sure if that's still available.
Anyway, what are your favourites?
andy
Carmina Quartet, Denon. (Not available of course ;-( )
Available (as are all their Denon recordings) from CDJapan:

http://www.cdjapan.co.jp/detailview.html?KEY=COCO-70518

Bob Harper
Ludwig
2009-06-07 16:18:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bob Harper
Post by Andy Evans
I'm probably due for a fresh performance of these works. I heard
excerpts from the Belcea Qt which sounded nice. Hagen is a bit syrupy,
Cleveland a bit bland etc etc.  I used to have the Vlach recording
which I liked a lot - not sure if that's still available.
Anyway, what are your favourites?
andy
Carmina Quartet, Denon. (Not available of course ;-(  )
http://www.cdjapan.co.jp/detailview.html?KEY=COCO-70518
Bob Harper
Also more conveniently from the iTunes store:
http://itunes.apple.com/WebObjects/MZStore.woa/wa/viewAlbum?id=277138506&s=143441

In case you were worried, the product description helpfully reassures
us that the lyrics are clean.
Ludwig
2009-06-07 16:40:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bob Harper
Post by Andy Evans
I'm probably due for a fresh performance of these works. I heard
excerpts from the Belcea Qt which sounded nice. Hagen is a bit syrupy,
Cleveland a bit bland etc etc.  I used to have the Vlach recording
which I liked a lot - not sure if that's still available.
Anyway, what are your favourites?
andy
Carmina Quartet, Denon. (Not available of course ;-(  )
http://www.cdjapan.co.jp/detailview.html?KEY=COCO-70518
Bob Harper
Also more conveniently from the iTunes store:http://itunes.apple.com/WebObjects/MZStore.woa/wa/viewAlbum?id=277138...
In case you were worried, the product description helpfully reassures
us that the lyrics are clean.
Incidentally, my vote also goes to the early Juilliard Quartet
recording that Tom mentioned, now on Testament, though I don't
actually own any others.
Peregrine
2009-06-07 16:46:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ludwig
Incidentally, my vote also goes to the early Juilliard Quartet
recording that Tom mentioned, now on Testament, though I don't
actually own any others.
Yes, a great performance. Also like the Ebene SQ that others have
mentioned.

Simon
Bob Harper
2009-06-07 19:15:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ludwig
Post by Bob Harper
Post by Gerard
Post by Andy Evans
I'm probably due for a fresh performance of these works. I heard
excerpts from the Belcea Qt which sounded nice. Hagen is a bit syrupy,
Cleveland a bit bland etc etc. I used to have the Vlach recording
which I liked a lot - not sure if that's still available.
Anyway, what are your favourites?
andy
Carmina Quartet, Denon. (Not available of course ;-( )
http://www.cdjapan.co.jp/detailview.html?KEY=COCO-70518
Bob Harper
http://itunes.apple.com/WebObjects/MZStore.woa/wa/viewAlbum?id=277138506&s=143441
In case you were worried, the product description helpfully reassures
us that the lyrics are clean.
I don't know. After all, both composers could write pretty sensuous
music, and we all know that sensuous somehow means dirty. Right?

Bob Harper
m***@hotmail.com
2009-06-07 16:22:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andy Evans
Anyway, what are your favourites?
Two favorites:

- Melos Quartett on DG
- Ébène Quartet on Virgin Classics (Debussy, Ravel and Fauré Quartets)
operafan
2009-06-07 16:35:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andy Evans
Anyway, what are your favourites?
Galimir on Vanguard, which is not only a beautiful performance but has
excellent sound (except for a very small dropout at the beginning of
the second movement which must have been a flaw in the mastering for
CD or the result of deterioration of the analog master tape). The
Emerson is...efficient :(
Dick
2009-06-08 00:59:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andy Evans
Anyway, what are your favourites?
New Zealand String Quartet (atoll)
g***@gmail.com
2016-08-17 07:51:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andy Evans
I'm probably due for a fresh performance of these works. I heard
excerpts from the Belcea Qt which sounded nice. Hagen is a bit syrupy,
Cleveland a bit bland etc etc. I used to have the Vlach recording
which I liked a lot - not sure if that's still available.
Anyway, what are your favourites?
andy
Concerning Ravel, the following recent list of recommended recordings may be of interest:

http://www.musicweb-international.com/mwi-recommends.htm
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