Discussion:
Rudolf Kempe Revisited
(too old to reply)
Raymond Hall
2006-02-14 01:33:08 UTC
Permalink
Via CD of course. One of the very best bargains (ever) is the Brilliant
Classics nice little cap box, containing 9 CDs of Kempe's orchestral Richard
Strauss, with the Dresden orchestra. I am already in possession of EMI's Vol
II and Vol III of the same, but minus the Volume I, so the above box
containing all the works that were in the three volumes, has put matters
straight.

Listened last night to Till Eulenspiegel and Don Juan, that were on one of
the CDs in Vol I. Absolutely stunning, and far better than the late 50s
effort Kempe made with the Berlin PO, especially with regard to Till. In
fact, almost as good as it gets from my experience, and proof to me that
Till was at the apex of Strauss's canon, before he started to slide down
with clearly inferior works such as the Alpine (good as it is though). What
is also so stunning, and it comes across so well, is the Dresden brass.
Magnificent, and if Chicago is famed for its brass, then Dresden must run
them very close, or even excel. Kempe however, keeps the brass section under
control, as distinct from Jochum, who lets them go ape in his Bruckner 5th
for EMI.

There have, of course been some very great Straussians, such as Reiner,
Szell, Kraus, and even HvK, but Kempe was surely the master. His Till and
Don are stunningly brilliant and nowhere near as leisurely as I had been
mistakenly expecting. The transfers on Brilliant Classics sound even better
for some reason, but maybe that is just an illusion on my part.

Whatever, for barely the price of just over one full priced dud, this box
represents an absolute steal. Many will have Kempe's Richard Strauss of
course, as I mostly did, but if you want orchestral Strauss at its very
best, then look no further.

Ray H
Taree
Dan Koren
2006-02-14 01:55:06 UTC
Permalink
Welcome to the club.

Klempe was the *ONLY* first class
conductor Germany has produced.



dk
Post by Raymond Hall
Via CD of course. One of the very best bargains (ever) is the Brilliant
Classics nice little cap box, containing 9 CDs of Kempe's orchestral
Richard Strauss, with the Dresden orchestra. I am already in possession of
EMI's Vol II and Vol III of the same, but minus the Volume I, so the above
box containing all the works that were in the three volumes, has put
matters straight.
Listened last night to Till Eulenspiegel and Don Juan, that were on one of
the CDs in Vol I. Absolutely stunning, and far better than the late 50s
effort Kempe made with the Berlin PO, especially with regard to Till. In
fact, almost as good as it gets from my experience, and proof to me that
Till was at the apex of Strauss's canon, before he started to slide down
with clearly inferior works such as the Alpine (good as it is though).
What is also so stunning, and it comes across so well, is the Dresden
brass. Magnificent, and if Chicago is famed for its brass, then Dresden
must run them very close, or even excel. Kempe however, keeps the brass
section under control, as distinct from Jochum, who lets them go ape in
his Bruckner 5th for EMI.
There have, of course been some very great Straussians, such as Reiner,
Szell, Kraus, and even HvK, but Kempe was surely the master. His Till and
Don are stunningly brilliant and nowhere near as leisurely as I had been
mistakenly expecting. The transfers on Brilliant Classics sound even
better for some reason, but maybe that is just an illusion on my part.
Whatever, for barely the price of just over one full priced dud, this box
represents an absolute steal. Many will have Kempe's Richard Strauss of
course, as I mostly did, but if you want orchestral Strauss at its very
best, then look no further.
Ray H
Taree
Marc Perman
2006-02-14 02:03:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dan Koren
Welcome to the club.
Klempe was the *ONLY* first class
conductor Germany has produced.
The rest flew business class or coach?

Marc Perman
Sacqueboutier
2006-02-14 02:33:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dan Koren
Welcome to the club.
Klempe was the *ONLY* first class
conductor Germany has produced.
[cough]

Two Kleibers, two Jochums, a Furtwangler, and a Klemperer
--
Best wishes,

Sacqueboutier
Richard Loeb
2006-02-14 02:36:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sacqueboutier
Post by Dan Koren
Welcome to the club.
Klempe was the *ONLY* first class
conductor Germany has produced.
[cough]
Two Kleibers, two Jochums, a Furtwangler, and a Klemperer
--
Best wishes,
Sacqueboutier
Actually Kleiber pere was Austrian. Richard
Michael Schaffer
2006-02-14 14:16:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Richard Loeb
Post by Sacqueboutier
Post by Dan Koren
Welcome to the club.
Klempe was the *ONLY* first class
conductor Germany has produced.
[cough]
Two Kleibers, two Jochums, a Furtwangler, and a Klemperer
--
Best wishes,
Sacqueboutier
Actually Kleiber pere was Austrian. Richard
Same thing, more or less. Germany and Austria are culturally completely
inseparable. It is just for political and historic reasons that they
are two different countries. Austria and Southern Germany are
culturally also much closer than Southern and Northern Germany. Because
Hitler annexed Austria in 1938 to create the so-called "Grossdeutsches
Reich", it is now usually avoided to point out how closely connected
the two countries are in every respect. But the idea to unite them had
been around for a very long time before that. In Hitler's time, it was
actually more a popular idea in the left part of the political
spectrum. That is now forgotten because close association of Germany
and Austria is more or less automatically linked to fascist
pan-Germanic ideas and therefore avoided. Before the German Empire as
such was created, people didn't make an actual disctinction between
"Germans" and "Austrians" anyway because they usually referred to
themselves as whatever language was their mother language, no matter
what kingdom, empire, duchy or other state they were a subject of.
But it doesn't matter these days anymore anyway.
Richard Loeb
2006-02-14 14:33:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Michael Schaffer
Post by Richard Loeb
Post by Sacqueboutier
Post by Dan Koren
Welcome to the club.
Klempe was the *ONLY* first class
conductor Germany has produced.
[cough]
Two Kleibers, two Jochums, a Furtwangler, and a Klemperer
--
Best wishes,
Sacqueboutier
Actually Kleiber pere was Austrian. Richard
Same thing, more or less. Germany and Austria are culturally completely
inseparable. It is just for political and historic reasons that they
are two different countries. Austria and Southern Germany are
culturally also much closer than Southern and Northern Germany. Because
Hitler annexed Austria in 1938 to create the so-called "Grossdeutsches
Reich", it is now usually avoided to point out how closely connected
the two countries are in every respect. But the idea to unite them had
been around for a very long time before that. In Hitler's time, it was
actually more a popular idea in the left part of the political
spectrum. That is now forgotten because close association of Germany
and Austria is more or less automatically linked to fascist
pan-Germanic ideas and therefore avoided. Before the German Empire as
such was created, people didn't make an actual disctinction between
"Germans" and "Austrians" anyway because they usually referred to
themselves as whatever language was their mother language, no matter
what kingdom, empire, duchy or other state they were a subject of.
But it doesn't matter these days anymore anyway.
Yes but I always heard of Kleiber as an Austrian conductor. I get your point
though. Richard
Paul Goldstein
2006-02-14 16:29:19 UTC
Permalink
In article <***@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>, Michael
Schaffer says...
Post by Michael Schaffer
Post by Richard Loeb
Post by Sacqueboutier
Post by Dan Koren
Welcome to the club.
Klempe was the *ONLY* first class
conductor Germany has produced.
[cough]
Two Kleibers, two Jochums, a Furtwangler, and a Klemperer
--
Best wishes,
Sacqueboutier
Actually Kleiber pere was Austrian. Richard
Same thing, more or less. Germany and Austria are culturally completely
inseparable. It is just for political and historic reasons that they
are two different countries. Austria and Southern Germany are
culturally also much closer than Southern and Northern Germany. Because
Hitler annexed Austria in 1938 to create the so-called "Grossdeutsches
Reich", it is now usually avoided to point out how closely connected
the two countries are in every respect. But the idea to unite them had
been around for a very long time before that.
Yes, the "idea" existed, but it did not become reality until 1938, and of course
that didn't last very long. There was a certain family called the Habsburgs
that also had something to do with the non-realization of the idea earlier.

That said, it is probably impossible to state a definition of "German" as of say
1925 that would obtain consensus acceptance. Divorcing the "cultural" from the
"political" and "historic" is arbitrary at best. And it does seem somewhat -
shall we say - ironic to hear "Germans" arguing for Klemperer or Bruno Walter as
one of their own.
Miguel Montfort
2006-02-14 16:59:13 UTC
Permalink
And it does seem somewhat - shall we say - ironic
to hear "Germans" arguing for Klemperer or Bruno
Walter as one of their own.
As ironic as Klemperer himself?

»"Emigrated" is a euphemism. Hitler had come to power.
Klemperer was of Jewish heritage. It made no difference
that he'd recently been awarded the Goethe Medal for his
contribution to German cultural life, had been a Catholic
since early adulthood, and perceived himself as being
first, last, and always a German. In place of "emigrated,"
read "fled for his safety to Switzerland."«

[http://www.concentric.net/~onk145/BioNotes.htm}
- Note to paragraph 4

[http://www.concentric.net/~onk145/Bio.htm]

Miguel Montfort
Paul Goldstein
2006-02-14 17:30:58 UTC
Permalink
In article <43f20c61$0$490$***@newsread4.arcor-online.net>, Miguel Montfort
says...
Post by Miguel Montfort
And it does seem somewhat - shall we say - ironic
to hear "Germans" arguing for Klemperer or Bruno
Walter as one of their own.
As ironic as Klemperer himself?
»"Emigrated" is a euphemism. Hitler had come to power.
Klemperer was of Jewish heritage. It made no difference
that he'd recently been awarded the Goethe Medal for his
contribution to German cultural life, had been a Catholic
since early adulthood, and perceived himself as being
first, last, and always a German. In place of "emigrated,"
read "fled for his safety to Switzerland."«
Exactly.
Dan Koren
2006-02-14 22:36:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Miguel Montfort
And it does seem somewhat - shall we say - ironic
to hear "Germans" arguing for Klemperer or Bruno
Walter as one of their own.
As ironic as Klemperer himself?
»"Emigrated" is a euphemism. Hitler had come to power.
Klemperer was of Jewish heritage. It made no difference
that he'd recently been awarded the Goethe Medal for his
contribution to German cultural life, had been a Catholic
since early adulthood, and perceived himself as being
first, last, and always a German. In place of "emigrated,"
read "fled for his safety to Switzerland."«
What you forgot to mention in
your very selective abstract
of Dr. Klemperer's biography
is that later in life he
returned to Judaism.

Some German.



dk
Miguel Montfort
2006-02-14 23:26:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dan Koren
What you forgot to mention
That would be the folks at klemperer.org.
Post by Dan Koren
in your very selective abstract
of Dr. Klemperer's biography is
that later in life he returned to
Judaism.
Some German.
Indeed.

Miguel Montfort
Curtis Croulet
2006-02-14 23:45:10 UTC
Permalink
Are you insisting that "German" and "Jewish" are mutually exclusive?
--
Curtis Croulet
Temecula, California
33° 27' 59"N, 117° 05' 53"W
Dan Koren
2006-02-15 00:26:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Curtis Croulet
Are you insisting that "German" and
"Jewish" are mutually exclusive?
It is clearly a personal choice
whether one considers himself a
Jew or a German first, or both
at the same time (or any % mix
one likes) -- at least as long
as there are no constraints or
consequences.

There have certainly been times
in history when this was not the
case. Certainly from 1933 to 1945
it was impossible to be both Jewish
and German at the same time. Would
you disagree?



dk
rkhalona
2006-02-15 00:03:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dan Koren
What you forgot to mention in
your very selective abstract
of Dr. Klemperer's biography
is that later in life he
returned to Judaism.
Some German.
So what? Klemperer and Walter were both Jewish AND German.

RK
Dan Koren
2006-02-15 00:29:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by rkhalona
Post by Dan Koren
What you forgot to mention in
your very selective abstract
of Dr. Klemperer's biography
is that later in life he
returned to Judaism.
Some German.
So what? Klemperer and Walter
were both Jewish AND German.
Klemperer and Walter were both
Jewish. One was a good conductor
and the other was bad. Personally
I couldn't care less about their
being German.

The fact of the matter is that
they were considered Jewish
first by their country of
residence and citizenship.

Who am I to rewrite history?



dk
d***@aol.com
2006-02-15 02:01:16 UTC
Permalink
According to Mr. Koren:

"The fact of the matter is that [, under Hitler, Walter & Klemperer]
were considered Jewish first by their country of residence and
citizenship."

But all of this irrelevant to what kind of conductors they were
culturally. Regardless of their ethnicity, they grew up in the German
speaking world within certain performance traditions. Besides, why
should we let Hitler define the terms of the debate?

-david gable
Michael Schaffer
2006-02-15 05:50:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by d***@aol.com
"The fact of the matter is that [, under Hitler, Walter & Klemperer]
were considered Jewish first by their country of residence and
citizenship."
But all of this irrelevant to what kind of conductors they were
culturally. Regardless of their ethnicity, they grew up in the German
speaking world within certain performance traditions. Besides, why
should we let Hitler define the terms of the debate?
-david gable
Well said. The fact of the matter is that cultural identity can not be
defined by dictators or laws. It has nothing to do with perceived
"race" or religion. It is where and in what cultural environment people
grow up. Some people also settle in a different part of the world later
in their life and absorb their new cultural environment very
thoroughly. People "are" what they feel they are. No dictator or system
can define or take that away from them.
rkhalona
2006-02-15 02:46:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by rkhalona
Post by rkhalona
So what? Klemperer and Walter
were both Jewish AND German.
Klemperer and Walter were both
Jewish. One was a good conductor
and the other was bad. Personally
I couldn't care less about their
being German.
Oh, so you only care about them being Jewish.
The reason most of us care about them is because they were
both great musicians, regardless of their ethnicity, religion, etc.
The fact that you dislike one of them
doesn't matter one bit.

Back to Kempe: I agree with Ray's enthusiasm about the Strauss box with
Dresden. Pretty hard to beat for the combination of Kempe's conducting
and
that great Dresden orchestra. I must say, however, that I prefer his
earlier recording of Don Quixote with Tortelier and the Berlin
Philharmonic.

RK
Bob Harper
2006-02-15 04:16:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by rkhalona
Post by rkhalona
Post by rkhalona
So what? Klemperer and Walter
were both Jewish AND German.
Klemperer and Walter were both
Jewish. One was a good conductor
and the other was bad. Personally
I couldn't care less about their
being German.
Oh, so you only care about them being Jewish.
The reason most of us care about them is because they were
both great musicians, regardless of their ethnicity, religion, etc.
The fact that you dislike one of them
doesn't matter one bit.
Back to Kempe: I agree with Ray's enthusiasm about the Strauss box with
Dresden. Pretty hard to beat for the combination of Kempe's conducting
and
that great Dresden orchestra. I must say, however, that I prefer his
earlier recording of Don Quixote with Tortelier and the Berlin
Philharmonic.
RK
It's been a while since I compared them, but memory says that I agree
with you. I remember the *sound* on the Berlin recording as being
fabulous, in the way that some late '50s recordings are.

Bob Harper
Sacqueboutier
2006-02-15 13:07:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by rkhalona
Post by rkhalona
Post by rkhalona
So what? Klemperer and Walter
were both Jewish AND German.
Klemperer and Walter were both
Jewish. One was a good conductor
and the other was bad. Personally
I couldn't care less about their
being German.
Oh, so you only care about them being Jewish.
The reason most of us care about them is because they were
both great musicians, regardless of their ethnicity, religion, etc.
The fact that you dislike one of them
doesn't matter one bit.
BRAVO
--
Best wishes,

Sacqueboutier
Michael Schaffer
2006-02-15 06:01:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul Goldstein
Schaffer says...
Post by Michael Schaffer
Post by Richard Loeb
Post by Sacqueboutier
Post by Dan Koren
Welcome to the club.
Klempe was the *ONLY* first class
conductor Germany has produced.
[cough]
Two Kleibers, two Jochums, a Furtwangler, and a Klemperer
--
Best wishes,
Sacqueboutier
Actually Kleiber pere was Austrian. Richard
Same thing, more or less. Germany and Austria are culturally completely
inseparable. It is just for political and historic reasons that they
are two different countries. Austria and Southern Germany are
culturally also much closer than Southern and Northern Germany. Because
Hitler annexed Austria in 1938 to create the so-called "Grossdeutsches
Reich", it is now usually avoided to point out how closely connected
the two countries are in every respect. But the idea to unite them had
been around for a very long time before that.
Yes, the "idea" existed, but it did not become reality until 1938, and of course
that didn't last very long. There was a certain family called the Habsburgs
that also had something to do with the non-realization of the idea earlier.
That said, it is probably impossible to state a definition of "German" as of say
1925 that would obtain consensus acceptance. Divorcing the "cultural" from the
"political" and "historic" is arbitrary at best. And it does seem somewhat -
shall we say - ironic to hear "Germans" arguing for Klemperer or Bruno Walter as
one of their own.
"Ironic"? How? The cultural identity of a person is not arguable. They
are what they feel they are. A lot of Germans thought that in that dark
phase too, only it didn't really matter what they thought in a system
which had the country completely under control with secret police and
storm troopers and which operated a huge propaganda apparatus to hammer
their ideology into evereyone's head. All of which they hadn't needed
if the people had already been convinced. But that doesn't really
matter because it does not touch the true nature of cultural identity
at all what they thought.
Really ironic though is that massive historical and political education
has led to the vast majority of people in Germany today being very
aware of the nature of that regime and the contradictions in their own
culture while so many other countries haven't really looked at their
skeletons in the closet and continue to think along lines which are
very close to what happened in Germany back then.
You can see that in such discussion here all the time.
Richard Schultz
2006-02-15 07:26:17 UTC
Permalink
In article <***@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>, Michael Schaffer <***@gmail.com> wrote:

: Really ironic though is that massive historical and political education
: has led to the vast majority of people in Germany today being very
: aware of the nature of that regime and the contradictions in their own
: culture while so many other countries haven't really looked at their
: skeletons in the closet and continue to think along lines which are
: very close to what happened in Germany back then.

I assume that you are talking about countries like Austria here.

-----
Richard Schultz ***@mail.biu.ac.il
Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel
Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University
-----
"Contrariwise," continued Tweedledee, "if it was so, it might be, and
if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic."
Michael Schaffer
2006-02-15 11:07:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Richard Schultz
: Really ironic though is that massive historical and political education
: has led to the vast majority of people in Germany today being very
: aware of the nature of that regime and the contradictions in their own
: culture while so many other countries haven't really looked at their
: skeletons in the closet and continue to think along lines which are
: very close to what happened in Germany back then.
I assume that you are talking about countries like Austria here.
-----
Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel
Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University
-----
"Contrariwise," continued Tweedledee, "if it was so, it might be, and
if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic."
To be honest, I don't really know what's going on in Austria these
days. It's been almost 10 years since I have last been there.
You don't hear much about what is going on there in international news
either. But I don't recall seeing any footage lately from Austria of
heavily armed soldiers vs. people with sticks and stones or helicopters
firing missiles into housing areas.
Richard Schultz
2006-02-15 14:18:01 UTC
Permalink
In article <***@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>, Michael Schaffer <***@gmail.com> wrote:
: Richard Schultz wrote:
:> In article <***@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>, Michael Schaffer <***@gmail.com> wrote:

:> : Really ironic though is that massive historical and political education
:> : has led to the vast majority of people in Germany today being very
:> : aware of the nature of that regime and the contradictions in their own
:> : culture while so many other countries haven't really looked at their
:> : skeletons in the closet and continue to think along lines which are
:> : very close to what happened in Germany back then.

:> I assume that you are talking about countries like Austria here.

: To be honest, I don't really know what's going on in Austria these
: days. It's been almost 10 years since I have last been there.

For someone who claims to have as good a knowledge of history as you do,
your ignorance of the refusal of Austrian society to face up to its
past is rather surprising. Austrians historically acted as if they actually
believed the Allied propaganda about them being the Nazis' first victims.

: You don't hear much about what is going on there in international news
: either. But I don't recall seeing any footage lately from Austria of
: heavily armed soldiers vs. people with sticks and stones or helicopters
: firing missiles into housing areas.

I'm not sure what this has to do with the subject at hand. Well, actually,
I do know what this has to do with the subject at hand, and I'm going to
ignore it except to note that you can't pretend that it was anyone other
than you who tried to drag the Middle East into it, and that for some
bizarre reason, the phrase "psychotic fuck" comes unbidden to my mind.

-----
Richard Schultz ***@mail.biu.ac.il
Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel
Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University
-----
"You don't even have a clue about which clue you're missing."
Bob Harper
2006-02-15 15:05:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Michael Schaffer
Post by Richard Schultz
"Contrariwise," continued Tweedledee, "if it was so, it might be, and
if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic."
To be honest, I don't really know what's going on in Austria these
days. It's been almost 10 years since I have last been there.
You don't hear much about what is going on there in international news
either. But I don't recall seeing any footage lately from Austria of
heavily armed soldiers vs. people with sticks and stones or helicopters
firing missiles into housing areas.
The following article offers a useful perspective on your apparent position:

http://www.claremont.org/writings/crb/winter2005/tartakovsky.html

There is no question that the Palestinians, at least until recently,
have done a masterful job of playing the victim. Let us hope that
articles like the above serve to bring more clarity, and less emotion,
to the subject.

Bob Harper
Richard Schultz
2006-02-15 15:44:30 UTC
Permalink
In article <***@comcast.com>, Bob Harper <***@comcast.net> wrote:

: There is no question that the Palestinians, at least until recently,
: have done a masterful job of playing the victim.

To my mind, part of the tragedy of the Palestinians is that they seem
to believe their own propaganda that nothing that ever happens could
possibly have been their fault. After the recent elections, Saeeb Erekat
responded to an interviewer's question about Hamas's success by saying
that there could not possibly have been any corruption in the Palestinian
Authority, since all of the foreign aid was given to NGOs, and the PA
never saw a penny of it. And what makes it worse is that for half a
century, the Palestinians have been told that if they wait long enough,
everything that they lost or think that they lost will be restored to them,
and enough of them believe it to make it difficult to carry on any
reasonable negotiations with them, since any leader who went back to them
and said "well guys, I was just kidding, and you're not going to get to
move back to your grandfather's house in Yafo after all" would not be
long for this world.

-----
Richard Schultz ***@mail.biu.ac.il
Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel
Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University
-----
"an optimist is a guy/ that has never had/ much experience"
Bob Harper
2006-02-15 18:25:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Richard Schultz
: There is no question that the Palestinians, at least until recently,
: have done a masterful job of playing the victim.
To my mind, part of the tragedy of the Palestinians is that they seem
to believe their own propaganda that nothing that ever happens could
possibly have been their fault. After the recent elections, Saeeb Erekat
responded to an interviewer's question about Hamas's success by saying
that there could not possibly have been any corruption in the Palestinian
Authority, since all of the foreign aid was given to NGOs, and the PA
never saw a penny of it. And what makes it worse is that for half a
century, the Palestinians have been told that if they wait long enough,
everything that they lost or think that they lost will be restored to them,
and enough of them believe it to make it difficult to carry on any
reasonable negotiations with them, since any leader who went back to them
and said "well guys, I was just kidding, and you're not going to get to
move back to your grandfather's house in Yafo after all" would not be
long for this world.
-----
Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel
Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University
-----
"an optimist is a guy/ that has never had/ much experience"
This puts into context the Hamas 'victory' in the recent elections.
Given a choice between thugs perceived (rightly) to be crooks, and thugs
perceived to be honest, the electorate went for the latter. One hopes
they would have voted for someone who told them the truth you've
outlined above, but such candidates would, as you say, probably not have
survived until election day. Very sad.

Bob Harper
rkhalona
2006-02-15 21:13:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bob Harper
This puts into context the Hamas 'victory' in the recent elections.
Given a choice between thugs perceived (rightly) to be crooks, and thugs
perceived to be honest, the electorate went for the latter. One hopes
they would have voted for someone who told them the truth you've
outlined above, but such candidates would, as you say, probably not have
survived until election day. Very sad.
Candidates who base their candidacies on telling the truth rarely
survive, anywhere.
Look at what's happening here in the great U.S. of A.

RK
Bob Harper
2006-02-16 01:21:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by rkhalona
Post by Bob Harper
This puts into context the Hamas 'victory' in the recent elections.
Given a choice between thugs perceived (rightly) to be crooks, and thugs
perceived to be honest, the electorate went for the latter. One hopes
they would have voted for someone who told them the truth you've
outlined above, but such candidates would, as you say, probably not have
survived until election day. Very sad.
Candidates who base their candidacies on telling the truth rarely
survive, anywhere.
Look at what's happening here in the great U.S. of A.
RK
There is a difference between losing an election (which happens to both
truth-tellers and liars) and being murdered for uttering truths.

Bob Harper
Rich S.
2006-02-14 02:57:25 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 13 Feb 2006 21:33:42 -0500, Sacqueboutier
Post by Sacqueboutier
Post by Dan Koren
Welcome to the club.
Klempe was the *ONLY* first class
conductor Germany has produced.
[cough]
Two Kleibers, two Jochums, a Furtwangler, and a Klemperer
Not to mention Bruno Walter.
Dan Koren
2006-02-14 05:55:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rich S.
On Mon, 13 Feb 2006 21:33:42 -0500, Sacqueboutier
Post by Sacqueboutier
Post by Dan Koren
Welcome to the club.
Klempe was the *ONLY* first class
conductor Germany has produced.
[cough]
Two Kleibers, two Jochums, a Furtwangler, and a Klemperer
Not to mention Bruno Walter.
Shit.



dk
Dan Koren
2006-02-14 05:54:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sacqueboutier
Post by Dan Koren
Welcome to the club.
Klempe was the *ONLY* first class
conductor Germany has produced.
[cough]
Two Kleibers, two Jochums, a Furtwangler, and a Klemperer
Precisely.

You made my point for me.

Klemperer wasn't German, and the others were shit.



dk
Curtis Croulet
2006-02-14 08:10:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dan Koren
Klemperer wasn't German
Huh? He was born in Breslau, Schlesien, in the German Empire.
--
Curtis Croulet
Temecula, California
33° 27' 59"N, 117° 05' 53"W
Dan Koren
2006-02-14 09:18:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Curtis Croulet
Post by Dan Koren
Klemperer wasn't German
Huh? He was born in Breslau,
Schlesien, in the German Empire.
--
Klemperer was Jewish.



dk
d***@web.de
2006-02-14 10:05:14 UTC
Permalink
... and?

Kai-Uwe
Curtis Croulet
2006-02-14 16:24:52 UTC
Permalink
And he can't be German, too?
--
Curtis Croulet
Temecula, California
33° 27' 59"N, 117° 05' 53"W
MrT
2006-02-14 16:26:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Curtis Croulet
And he can't be German, too?
--
Further, what's this obsession with nationalities? Music is the most
universal language. I don't hear nationalities but sounds.

Best,

MrT
Ralph
2006-02-14 16:41:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dan Koren
Post by Curtis Croulet
Post by Dan Koren
Klemperer wasn't German
Huh? He was born in Breslau,
Schlesien, in the German Empire.
--
Klemperer was Jewish.
dk
The Jews started settling in the Rhineland shortly after 70 A.D. So in
effect they lived in German soil about 2000 years and may of predated
any Christian presence there. For you to claim that Klemperer wasn't
German, because he was Jewish, is a bit peculiar.

Ralph
Dan Koren
2006-02-14 17:00:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ralph
Post by Dan Koren
Post by Curtis Croulet
Post by Dan Koren
Klemperer wasn't German
Huh? He was born in Breslau,
Schlesien, in the German Empire.
--
Klemperer was Jewish.
The Jews started settling in the Rhineland shortly after 70 A.D. So in
effect they lived in German soil about 2000 years and may of predated any
Christian presence there. For you to claim that Klemperer wasn't German,
because he was Jewish, is a bit peculiar.
Hhmmm.... Did you ask Dr. Klemperer if
he considered himself German or Jewish?



dk
Ralph
2006-02-14 17:18:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dan Koren
Post by Ralph
Post by Dan Koren
Post by Curtis Croulet
Post by Dan Koren
Klemperer wasn't German
Huh? He was born in Breslau,
Schlesien, in the German Empire.
--
Klemperer was Jewish.
The Jews started settling in the Rhineland shortly after 70 A.D. So in
effect they lived in German soil about 2000 years and may of predated any
Christian presence there. For you to claim that Klemperer wasn't German,
because he was Jewish, is a bit peculiar.
Hhmmm.... Did you ask Dr. Klemperer if
he considered himself German or Jewish?
dk
A dichotomy that you seem to insist on. Klemperer could be a German who
happened to be Jewish, (putting his conversion to Christianity and later
return to Judaism aside for now) or a Jew who also happened to be German.

Ralph
Gerard
2006-02-14 17:57:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ralph
A dichotomy that you seem to insist on. Klemperer could be a German
who happened to be Jewish, (putting his conversion to Christianity
and later return to Judaism aside for now) or a Jew who also happened
to be German.
First of all we have to discuss about: what is a Jew.
A start has been made in the recent thread about Radu Lupu.
Then there should be a discussion about: what is a German.
Ralph
2006-02-14 18:02:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gerard
First of all we have to discuss about: what is a Jew.
A start has been made in the recent thread about Radu Lupu.
Then there should be a discussion about: what is a German.
And this is the point where I shall do an 86, and gratefully bail out
of this thread.

Ralph
Dan Koren
2006-02-14 22:40:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gerard
Post by Ralph
A dichotomy that you seem to insist on. Klemperer could be a German
who happened to be Jewish, (putting his conversion to Christianity
and later return to Judaism aside for now) or a Jew who also happened
to be German.
First of all we have to discuss about: what is a Jew.
Not what -- who.
Post by Gerard
A start has been made in the recent thread about Radu Lupu.
Then there should be a discussion about: what is a German.
Audi, Bechstein, BMW, Leica, Mercedes, Rodenstock, Zeiss.



dk
Richard Schultz
2006-02-15 05:20:52 UTC
Permalink
In article <43f25c67$***@news.meer.net>, Dan Koren <***@yahoo.com> wrote:

: Not what -- who.

He's on first.

-----
Richard Schultz ***@mail.biu.ac.il
Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel
Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University
-----
"Logic is a wreath of pretty flowers which smell bad."
Richard Schultz
2006-02-15 05:20:16 UTC
Permalink
In article <43f219f3$0$73344$***@news.wanadoo.nl>, Gerard <***@hotmail.com> wrote:

: First of all we have to discuss about: what is a Jew.
: A start has been made in the recent thread about Radu Lupu.
: Then there should be a discussion about: what is a German.

Then we can argue about whether Julie Andrews or Audrey Hepburn
was the better Hungarian.

-----
Richard Schultz ***@mail.biu.ac.il
Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel
Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University
-----
"an optimist is a guy/ that has never had/ much experience"
Dan Koren
2006-02-14 22:38:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ralph
Post by Dan Koren
Post by Ralph
Post by Dan Koren
Post by Curtis Croulet
Post by Dan Koren
Klemperer wasn't German
Huh? He was born in Breslau,
Schlesien, in the German Empire.
--
Klemperer was Jewish.
The Jews started settling in the Rhineland shortly after 70 A.D. So in
effect they lived in German soil about 2000 years and may of predated
any Christian presence there. For you to claim that Klemperer wasn't
German, because he was Jewish, is a bit peculiar.
Hhmmm.... Did you ask Dr. Klemperer if
he considered himself German or Jewish?
A dichotomy that you seem to insist on.
A dichotomy that millions of German
citizens subscribed to during Dr.
Klemperer's lifetime.
Post by Ralph
Klemperer could be a German who happened to be Jewish, (putting his
conversion to Christianity and later return to Judaism aside for now) or a
Jew who also happened to be German.
Jews don't "happen" to be Jews, nor
do Germans "happen" to be German.

Your logic is twisted in the extreme,
as is your attempt to be politically
correct.



dk
Curtis Croulet
2006-02-14 23:49:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dan Koren
A dichotomy that millions of German
citizens subscribed to during Dr.
Klemperer's lifetime.
Unfortunately.
--
Curtis Croulet
Temecula, California
33° 27' 59"N, 117° 05' 53"W
Dan Koren
2006-02-15 00:30:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Curtis Croulet
Post by Dan Koren
A dichotomy that millions of German
citizens subscribed to during Dr.
Klemperer's lifetime.
Unfortunately.
True.

But that does not change history.



dk
Curtis Croulet
2006-02-15 01:41:07 UTC
Permalink
So someone's identity is established by their enemies or opponents?

Notwithstanding my French name, my immigrant surname ancestor and his wife
were born in Breslau, and I've had occasion to study the civil registration
registers that were started in 1872 (IIRC), after the creation of the German
Empire. It's chilling to look through these registers and see a Nazi stamp
beside the name of someone who thought they were German, or at least
Silesian, until some bureaucrat in the 1930s decided they weren't.

*I* consider both Klemperer and Walter to be German, in addition to being
Jewish. It would appear that several others in this forum agree. But we're
sailing into waters that, IMHO, are inappropriate for this forum, and I
hereby retire from this particular discussion.
--
Curtis Croulet
Temecula, California
33° 27' 59"N, 117° 05' 53"W
Dan Koren
2006-02-15 01:57:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Curtis Croulet
So someone's identity is established by
their enemies or opponents?
Sometimes.

E.g. when people are expelled, deported,
sent to concentration camps or gas ovens.



dk
Iain Neill Reid
2006-02-15 03:24:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dan Koren
Post by Curtis Croulet
So someone's identity is established by
their enemies or opponents?
Sometimes.
E.g. when people are expelled, deported,
sent to concentration camps or gas ovens.
That may establish their fate, but I don't think that it establishes
their identity
Post by Dan Koren
dk
Lawrence Chalmers
2006-02-15 17:22:43 UTC
Permalink
Michael Schaffer
2006-02-15 05:44:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Curtis Croulet
So someone's identity is established by their enemies or opponents?
Notwithstanding my French name, my immigrant surname ancestor and his wife
were born in Breslau, and I've had occasion to study the civil registration
registers that were started in 1872 (IIRC), after the creation of the German
Empire. It's chilling to look through these registers and see a Nazi stamp
beside the name of someone who thought they were German, or at least
Silesian, until some bureaucrat in the 1930s decided they weren't.
You might have Huguenot ancestors. There are still a lot of people in
Berlin today who have French names because there was a large
immigration of them to Germany because they were protestants and as
such persecuted in France at the time, starting around 1685. The
majority of them immigrated into Brandenburg/Prussia. Silesia was
seized from Austria by Frederick II later, so I wouldn't be surprised
if there were a lot of people of Huguenot ancestry there too who moved
there when it was under Prussian rule.
Post by Curtis Croulet
*I* consider both Klemperer and Walter to be German, in addition to being
Jewish. It would appear that several others in this forum agree. But we're
sailing into waters that, IMHO, are inappropriate for this forum, and I
hereby retire from this particular discussion.
--
Curtis Croulet
Temecula, California
33° 27' 59"N, 117° 05' 53"W
Curtis Croulet
2006-02-15 07:07:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Michael Schaffer
You might have Huguenot ancestors.
No. My Croulet ancestors were solidly Roman Catholic until my immigrant (to
the U.S.) great-grandfather, Arthur Croulet, rejected the church, probably
about 1870. Arthur was born in Breslau, but his father, Charles Francois
Croulet, was born in Baume-les-Dames, Doubs, France, near the Jura
Mountains. The family lived in the Baume-les-Dames area for at least 150
years, and they were Catholic all that time. I know quite a bit about my
Croulet ancestry back to the late 17th Century.
--
Curtis Croulet
Temecula, California
33° 27' 59"N, 117° 05' 53"W
Dan Koren
2006-02-15 07:59:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Curtis Croulet
Post by Michael Schaffer
You might have Huguenot ancestors.
No. My Croulet ancestors were solidly Roman Catholic until my immigrant (to
the U.S.) great-grandfather, Arthur Croulet, rejected the church, probably
about 1870. Arthur was born in Breslau, but his father, Charles Francois
Croulet, was born in Baume-les-Dames, Doubs, France, near the Jura
Mountains. The family lived in the Baume-les-Dames area for at least 150
years, and they were Catholic all that time. I know quite a bit about my
Croulet ancestry back to the late 17th Century.
--
Hats off.



dk
EM
2006-02-14 20:35:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dan Koren
Post by Curtis Croulet
Huh? He was born in Breslau,
Schlesien, in the German Empire.
Klemperer was Jewish.
Read his brother's diaries and perhaps you'll understand how German
many Jews were.

EM
Dan Koren
2006-02-14 22:43:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by EM
Post by Dan Koren
Post by Curtis Croulet
Huh? He was born in Breslau,
Schlesien, in the German Empire.
Klemperer was Jewish.
Read his brother's diaries and
perhaps you'll understand how
German many Jews were.
I don't need to read anyone's
books to understand it -- my
parents were born German. Is
that good enough, or should I
reread Kant, Schopenhauer and
Nietzsche from the beginning
to the end?

;-)


dk
Gerard
2006-02-15 08:25:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dan Koren
I don't need to read anyone's
books to understand it -- my
parents were born German. Is
that good enough, or should I
reread Kant, Schopenhauer and
Nietzsche from the beginning
to the end?
To start with.
Very good idea (your first in this century).
Paul Goldstein
2006-02-14 22:42:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by EM
Post by Dan Koren
Post by Curtis Croulet
Huh? He was born in Breslau,
Schlesien, in the German Empire.
Klemperer was Jewish.
Read his brother's diaries and perhaps you'll understand how German
many Jews were.
If you're referring to Victor, they were cousins, not brothers.
EM
2006-02-15 13:12:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul Goldstein
If you're referring to Victor, they were cousins, not brothers.
Correct, my mistake. Waste of time though, Koren has stopped reading
books, because of the perceived dangers of cognitive dissonance.

EM
George Murnu
2006-02-16 03:03:50 UTC
Permalink
[snip]
Post by Dan Koren
Post by Sacqueboutier
Post by Dan Koren
Klempe was the *ONLY* first class
conductor Germany has produced.
[cough]
Two Kleibers, two Jochums, a Furtwangler, and a Klemperer
Precisely.
You made my point for me.
Klemperer wasn't German, and the others were shit.
How about Bohm, Krauss, Rosbaud, Scherchen Schuricht, Knappertsbusch?
Really curious to know what you think about them...

Regards,

George
Post by Dan Koren
dk
Michael Schaffer
2006-02-16 03:16:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by George Murnu
[snip]
Post by Dan Koren
Post by Sacqueboutier
Post by Dan Koren
Klempe was the *ONLY* first class
conductor Germany has produced.
[cough]
Two Kleibers, two Jochums, a Furtwangler, and a Klemperer
Precisely.
You made my point for me.
Klemperer wasn't German, and the others were shit.
How about Bohm, Krauss, Rosbaud, Scherchen Schuricht, Knappertsbusch?
Really curious to know what you think about them...
Regards,
George
Post by Dan Koren
dk
And what about Wand, Dohnanyi, Sanderling, Sawallisch, Masur (not all
of these are favorites of mine, but all of them are/were no doubt very
accomplished conductors)?
I am just mentioning these names, of course, Koren doesn't want a
discussion, he just wants to provoke.
Dan Koren
2006-02-16 09:28:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Michael Schaffer
Post by George Murnu
[snip]
Post by Dan Koren
Post by Sacqueboutier
Post by Dan Koren
Klempe was the *ONLY* first class
conductor Germany has produced.
[cough]
Two Kleibers, two Jochums, a Furtwangler, and a Klemperer
Precisely.
You made my point for me.
Klemperer wasn't German, and the others were shit.
How about Bohm, Krauss, Rosbaud, Scherchen Schuricht, Knappertsbusch?
Really curious to know what you think about them...
Regards,
And what about Wand,
Dull.
Post by Michael Schaffer
Dohnanyi,
Horrible. Dry, stiff and pretentious.
Post by Michael Schaffer
Sanderling,
One of my favorites. And in case you
didn't know, he is Jewish. I didn't
know about it either, until very
recently.
Post by Michael Schaffer
Sawallisch,
One of my favorites too. His Brahms
and Schumann symphony cycles are
among the finest, and perennial
personal favorites.
Post by Michael Schaffer
Masur
A few good hits, but by and large
too ponderous for my taste. On the
other hand, he is one of the heroes
or our time.
Post by Michael Schaffer
(not all of these are favorites of
mine, but all of them are/were no
doubt very accomplished conductors)?
I judge things down from perfection,
not up from mediocrity. "Accomplished"
is the baseline, a minimum requirement.
Post by Michael Schaffer
I am just mentioning these names, of
course, Koren doesn't want a discussion,
he just wants to provoke.
And where did you get such an idea ?!?

Just consider the absurdity of it: you
are in effect saying that anyone who
disagress with pre-conceived notions
wants to provoke, right?

What would you expect one to say if
one does not like one note conducted
by Walter or Toscanini? Pretend they
were "great" conductors just because
the Penguin says so?



dk
Bob Harper
2006-02-16 15:26:19 UTC
Permalink
(snip)
Post by Michael Schaffer
And what about Wand,
Dull.
(snip)
dk
If you can say that after hearing his live Eroica, his Schubert 9th with
the BPO, or his Bruckner 9th from Japan (2000), then it is *you*, my
dear fellow, who need new ears.

Bob Harper
Dan Koren
2006-02-16 18:07:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bob Harper
Post by Michael Schaffer
And what about Wand,
Dull.
If you can say that after hearing his live Eroica,
I don't judge conductors by their Eroicas. I do not
consider Eroica to be music, pure and simple.
Post by Bob Harper
his Schubert 9th with the BPO,
Too much competition there to be impressed by anyone.
Post by Bob Harper
or his Bruckner 9th from Japan (2000),
Ditto.
Post by Bob Harper
then it is *you*, my dear fellow, who need new ears.
Got them. They're in the mail.



dk

Dan Koren
2006-02-16 09:20:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by George Murnu
[snip]
Post by Dan Koren
Post by Sacqueboutier
Post by Dan Koren
Klempe was the *ONLY* first class
conductor Germany has produced.
[cough]
Two Kleibers, two Jochums, a Furtwangler, and a Klemperer
Precisely.
You made my point for me.
Klemperer wasn't German, and the others were shit.
How about Bohm, Krauss, Rosbaud, Scherchen, Schuricht,
Knappertsbusch? Really curious to know what you think
about them...
I like Scherchen and Krauss sometimes.

Bohm I detest with very few exceptions: he was a great accompanist.

I have a hard time deciding which is more disgusting between Jochum
and Knappertsbusch.

You forgot to ask about Hans Schmidt-Isserstedt, Felix Weingartner
and Oswald Kabasta. I actually like the latter quite a bit -- that
should disprove anyone's suspicions that I mix music and politics.



dk
Ralph
2006-02-14 02:02:58 UTC
Permalink
I think that Kempe's EMI Wagner Meistersinger is way past due to be
brought back into print.

Ralph
John Wilson
2006-02-14 14:46:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ralph
I think that Kempe's EMI Wagner Meistersinger is way past due to be
brought back into print.
Agreed! However, since EMI only seem to reissue recordings that have
previously been reissued and the Kempe Meistersinger has only had an
initial transfer it will probably languish un-reissued.

John
Richard Loeb
2006-02-14 14:47:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Wilson
Post by Ralph
I think that Kempe's EMI Wagner Meistersinger is way past due to be
brought back into print.
Agreed! However, since EMI only seem to reissue recordings that have
previously been reissued and the Kempe Meistersinger has only had an
initial transfer it will probably languish un-reissued.
John
Yes that is a shame - Kempe is superb on that set and the mono sound was
wonderful . Richard
Dave Cook
2006-02-14 15:17:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Wilson
Agreed! However, since EMI only seem to reissue recordings that have
previously been reissued and the Kempe Meistersinger has only had an
initial transfer it will probably languish un-reissued.
Perhaps Testament will do it. They've already reissued a lot of Kempe.

Dave Cook
Sacqueboutier
2006-02-14 02:32:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Raymond Hall
Via CD of course. One of the very best bargains (ever) is the Brilliant
Classics nice little cap box, containing 9 CDs of Kempe's orchestral
Richard Strauss, with the Dresden orchestra. I am already in possession
of EMI's Vol II and Vol III of the same, but minus the Volume I, so the
above box containing all the works that were in the three volumes, has
put matters straight.
Listened last night to Till Eulenspiegel and Don Juan, that were on one
of the CDs in Vol I. Absolutely stunning, and far better than the late
50s effort Kempe made with the Berlin PO, especially with regard to
Till. In fact, almost as good as it gets from my experience, and proof
to me that Till was at the apex of Strauss's canon, before he started
to slide down with clearly inferior works such as the Alpine (good as
it is though). What is also so stunning, and it comes across so well,
is the Dresden brass. Magnificent, and if Chicago is famed for its
brass, then Dresden must run them very close, or even excel. Kempe
however, keeps the brass section under control, as distinct from
Jochum, who lets them go ape in his Bruckner 5th for EMI.
LOL. Ray, that is a perfect description of both the Strauss and the
Bruckner! I love both without
reservation!

As for Dresden's brass, I find the tone quality a bit unrefined and not
in the same league as
the CSO (or just about any other American orchestra for that matter).
However, vive la difference!
The wonderful colors emitted by the Dresden brass are balanced
perfectly with the winds
and string by the conductor.
--
Best wishes,

Sacqueboutier
Michael Schaffer
2006-02-14 13:56:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sacqueboutier
Post by Raymond Hall
Via CD of course. One of the very best bargains (ever) is the Brilliant
Classics nice little cap box, containing 9 CDs of Kempe's orchestral
Richard Strauss, with the Dresden orchestra. I am already in possession
of EMI's Vol II and Vol III of the same, but minus the Volume I, so the
above box containing all the works that were in the three volumes, has
put matters straight.
Listened last night to Till Eulenspiegel and Don Juan, that were on one
of the CDs in Vol I. Absolutely stunning, and far better than the late
50s effort Kempe made with the Berlin PO, especially with regard to
Till. In fact, almost as good as it gets from my experience, and proof
to me that Till was at the apex of Strauss's canon, before he started
to slide down with clearly inferior works such as the Alpine (good as
it is though). What is also so stunning, and it comes across so well,
is the Dresden brass. Magnificent, and if Chicago is famed for its
brass, then Dresden must run them very close, or even excel. Kempe
however, keeps the brass section under control, as distinct from
Jochum, who lets them go ape in his Bruckner 5th for EMI.
LOL. Ray, that is a perfect description of both the Strauss and the
Bruckner! I love both without
reservation!
As for Dresden's brass, I find the tone quality a bit unrefined and not
in the same league as
the CSO (or just about any other American orchestra for that matter).
Unrefined? Apparently you never heard Peter Damm either as soloist
(also in this set) or as principal (he played in most of the Strauss
recordings, although the SD has 3 principals). I think there were few
horn players who ever played more refined and musical. And the brass
section in general lives up to the standard he set (in terms of
orchestral brass playing).
I will never understand why you Americans think that brass playing
always has to be as loud and blaring as possible (see CSO). Do you
think that is refined?
As can be heard in some of the Jochum recordings (but also in Kempe's
Strauss recordings, but only in the places where it belongs), the SD
brass can also inflict structural damage. That they don't try to do so
at every possible opportunity is a *musical* choice. The judicious
application of those dynamic possibilities is what I would call
refined.
I would easier understand if somebody found the brass playing in
Kempe's set a little *too* refined because of the constant color
variation by different degrees of vibrato.
Post by Sacqueboutier
However, vive la difference!
The wonderful colors emitted by the Dresden brass are balanced
perfectly with the winds
and string by the conductor.
--
Best wishes,
Sacqueboutier
Sacqueboutier
2006-02-14 14:30:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Michael Schaffer
Post by Sacqueboutier
Post by Raymond Hall
Via CD of course. One of the very best bargains (ever) is the Brilliant
Classics nice little cap box, containing 9 CDs of Kempe's orchestral
Richard Strauss, with the Dresden orchestra. I am already in possession
of EMI's Vol II and Vol III of the same, but minus the Volume I, so the
above box containing all the works that were in the three volumes, has
put matters straight.
Listened last night to Till Eulenspiegel and Don Juan, that were on one
of the CDs in Vol I. Absolutely stunning, and far better than the late
50s effort Kempe made with the Berlin PO, especially with regard to
Till. In fact, almost as good as it gets from my experience, and proof
to me that Till was at the apex of Strauss's canon, before he started
to slide down with clearly inferior works such as the Alpine (good as
it is though). What is also so stunning, and it comes across so well,
is the Dresden brass. Magnificent, and if Chicago is famed for its
brass, then Dresden must run them very close, or even excel. Kempe
however, keeps the brass section under control, as distinct from
Jochum, who lets them go ape in his Bruckner 5th for EMI.
LOL. Ray, that is a perfect description of both the Strauss and the
Bruckner! I love both without
reservation!
As for Dresden's brass, I find the tone quality a bit unrefined and not
in the same league as
the CSO (or just about any other American orchestra for that matter).
Unrefined? Apparently you never heard Peter Damm either as soloist
(also in this set) or as principal (he played in most of the Strauss
recordings, although the SD has 3 principals). I think there were few
horn players who ever played more refined and musical. And the brass
section in general lives up to the standard he set (in terms of
orchestral brass playing).
I will never understand why you Americans think that brass playing
always has to be as loud and blaring as possible (see CSO). Do you
think that is refined?
As can be heard in some of the Jochum recordings (but also in Kempe's
Strauss recordings, but only in the places where it belongs), the SD
brass can also inflict structural damage. That they don't try to do so
at every possible opportunity is a *musical* choice. The judicious
application of those dynamic possibilities is what I would call
refined.
I would easier understand if somebody found the brass playing in
Kempe's set a little *too* refined because of the constant color
variation by different degrees of vibrato.
I've heard Peter Damm plenty through recordings. I find him musical, but
his vibrato and his Bb horn make him sound a bit like baritone to my ears.
Just check the opening bars of the Strauss 1st. Very exciting, but rather
wobbly.

BTW, when I wrote unrfined, I was referring mostly to the cylindrical brass...
trumpets and trombone. The sounds they make can be awfully abrasive and
strident. Doesn't mean I don't like it at times. Just in comparison
to the CSO,
I don't think it's in the same league.

BTW also, I don't think I would care much for Clevenger's sound in the Straus
concerti either. My benchmarks here are Bloom, Brain, and Seifert.
--
Best wishes,

Sacqueboutier
Michael Schaffer
2006-02-15 06:21:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sacqueboutier
Post by Michael Schaffer
Post by Sacqueboutier
Post by Raymond Hall
Via CD of course. One of the very best bargains (ever) is the Brilliant
Classics nice little cap box, containing 9 CDs of Kempe's orchestral
Richard Strauss, with the Dresden orchestra. I am already in possession
of EMI's Vol II and Vol III of the same, but minus the Volume I, so the
above box containing all the works that were in the three volumes, has
put matters straight.
Listened last night to Till Eulenspiegel and Don Juan, that were on one
of the CDs in Vol I. Absolutely stunning, and far better than the late
50s effort Kempe made with the Berlin PO, especially with regard to
Till. In fact, almost as good as it gets from my experience, and proof
to me that Till was at the apex of Strauss's canon, before he started
to slide down with clearly inferior works such as the Alpine (good as
it is though). What is also so stunning, and it comes across so well,
is the Dresden brass. Magnificent, and if Chicago is famed for its
brass, then Dresden must run them very close, or even excel. Kempe
however, keeps the brass section under control, as distinct from
Jochum, who lets them go ape in his Bruckner 5th for EMI.
LOL. Ray, that is a perfect description of both the Strauss and the
Bruckner! I love both without
reservation!
As for Dresden's brass, I find the tone quality a bit unrefined and not
in the same league as
the CSO (or just about any other American orchestra for that matter).
Unrefined? Apparently you never heard Peter Damm either as soloist
(also in this set) or as principal (he played in most of the Strauss
recordings, although the SD has 3 principals). I think there were few
horn players who ever played more refined and musical. And the brass
section in general lives up to the standard he set (in terms of
orchestral brass playing).
I will never understand why you Americans think that brass playing
always has to be as loud and blaring as possible (see CSO). Do you
think that is refined?
As can be heard in some of the Jochum recordings (but also in Kempe's
Strauss recordings, but only in the places where it belongs), the SD
brass can also inflict structural damage. That they don't try to do so
at every possible opportunity is a *musical* choice. The judicious
application of those dynamic possibilities is what I would call
refined.
I would easier understand if somebody found the brass playing in
Kempe's set a little *too* refined because of the constant color
variation by different degrees of vibrato.
I've heard Peter Damm plenty through recordings. I find him musical, but
his vibrato and his Bb horn make him sound a bit like baritone to my ears.
Just check the opening bars of the Strauss 1st. Very exciting, but rather
wobbly.
BTW, when I wrote unrfined, I was referring mostly to the cylindrical brass...
trumpets and trombone. The sounds they make can be awfully abrasive and
strident. Doesn't mean I don't like it at times. Just in comparison
to the CSO,
I don't think it's in the same league.
BTW also, I don't think I would care much for Clevenger's sound in the Straus
concerti either. My benchmarks here are Bloom, Brain, and Seifert.
--
Best wishes,
Sacqueboutier
I can see better now what you meant. Part of that brightness in forte
is caused by the recordings which are a little on the glassy side, but
part is also the particular tonal style. The sharp attacks you can
sometimes hear are more to project a "brassy" sound (someone called it
"craggy", I find that particularly well put) without having to play too
loud and thereby drowning all the other sections in the orchestra (not
completely unlike the brassiness heard on period instruments, although
the general playing style is very different, obviously).
That is what I find so unpleasant (and unstylish and unmusical) about
the "CSO style". Technically very good, but I would definitely not call
them anything like refined. But it does seem to make a lot of people
happy, and I like it in some repertoire too. Although I like the brass
sound of some American orchestras much better, in particular the NYP
and the horns of the LAP.
I think one could say that the style of brass playing in American and
British orchestras, while still distinct, leans in the same direction.
I once got attacked very massively in an online forum (by American CSO
fanatics, of course) for saying that the best brass playing I have ever
heard from that stylistic area was the Philharmonia brass, especially
when John Wallace was principal trumpet. Now *that* was refined brass
playing, virtuoso and extrovert but extremely musical and sonorous with
a lot of nuances. I still remember a Mahler 5 with Wallace playing the
first trumpet with the most incredible range of colors and dynamic and
musical nuances.
But that is an entirely different discussion...

I have never heard Clevenger's recording of the first Strauss
recording. Did he also record the second? I do like his Haydn
recordings very much, they are among my favorites. His Mozart album is
also very good, but here I think other soloists have displayed more
musical flexibility, including Damm although his vibrato here is quite
ample in places too and may not please all ears.
Speaking of vibrato, have you ever heard Buyanovsky's recording of the
first Strauss concerto (with Mravinsky)?
I haven't heard the recording Seifert did with Mehta, but I was in the
concerts when they recorded it (not live, but during the same work
phase), plus the Alpensinfonie after the intermission with which the
concerto then shared a disc. Seifert played 5th horn in the symphony.
I have always admired Seifert as a great horn player - I never heard
him booboo once in many, many BP concerts I heard -, but I have never
been overwhelmed by him musically, stylish and tasteful as he played. I
actually liked the playing style of Hauptmann, the other principal
during the Karajan era, better. It can be heard in a recording of the
second concerto.
Raymond Hall
2006-02-15 12:02:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Michael Schaffer
I think one could say that the style of brass playing in American and
British orchestras, while still distinct, leans in the same direction.
I once got attacked very massively in an online forum (by American CSO
fanatics, of course) for saying that the best brass playing I have ever
heard from that stylistic area was the Philharmonia brass, especially
when John Wallace was principal trumpet. Now *that* was refined brass
playing, virtuoso and extrovert but extremely musical and sonorous with
a lot of nuances. I still remember a Mahler 5 with Wallace playing the
first trumpet with the most incredible range of colors and dynamic and
musical nuances.
But that is an entirely different discussion...
Even so, worth pursuing, and a chance to add the following.

At the risk of mentioning Hovhaness, there is a wonderful CD on Naxos
(American Classics) that features John Wallace, in "Return and Rebuild the
Desolate Places", Op.213, and "Prayer of St.Gregory", Op.62b. What also
makes this a wonderful CD are the three 'wind' symphonies, No.4, No.20 and
No.53 "Star Dawn" that make up the rest of the disk. Keith Brion, a renowned
wind man, directs the Royal Scottish Academy of Music and Drama, in all the
pieces.

The music is sort of like a perfumed Bruckner, full of scented harmonic
(typically Hovhaness-y harmonies), and glorious harmonic shifts, brass
chorales and music that is quite heavenly. Bruckner without the boring
chug-chug tremolo string bits (and I do say this TIC).

And please, don't be put off by the name Hovhaness. He was a great composer
in my book. A CD well worth getting for all music lovers, and especially for
those who love brass.

Those who know of John Wallace and his playing will also enjoy this CD.

Here endeth the unashamed plug for what is to me some great music.

Ray H
Taree
Sacqueboutier
2006-02-15 13:36:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Michael Schaffer
Post by Sacqueboutier
Post by Michael Schaffer
Post by Sacqueboutier
Post by Raymond Hall
Via CD of course. One of the very best bargains (ever) is the Brilliant
Classics nice little cap box, containing 9 CDs of Kempe's orchestral
Richard Strauss, with the Dresden orchestra. I am already in possession
of EMI's Vol II and Vol III of the same, but minus the Volume I, so the
above box containing all the works that were in the three volumes, has
put matters straight.
Listened last night to Till Eulenspiegel and Don Juan, that were on one
of the CDs in Vol I. Absolutely stunning, and far better than the late
50s effort Kempe made with the Berlin PO, especially with regard to
Till. In fact, almost as good as it gets from my experience, and proof
to me that Till was at the apex of Strauss's canon, before he started
to slide down with clearly inferior works such as the Alpine (good as
it is though). What is also so stunning, and it comes across so well,
is the Dresden brass. Magnificent, and if Chicago is famed for its
brass, then Dresden must run them very close, or even excel. Kempe
however, keeps the brass section under control, as distinct from
Jochum, who lets them go ape in his Bruckner 5th for EMI.
LOL. Ray, that is a perfect description of both the Strauss and the
Bruckner! I love both without
reservation!
As for Dresden's brass, I find the tone quality a bit unrefined and not
in the same league as
the CSO (or just about any other American orchestra for that matter).
Unrefined? Apparently you never heard Peter Damm either as soloist
(also in this set) or as principal (he played in most of the Strauss
recordings, although the SD has 3 principals). I think there were few
horn players who ever played more refined and musical. And the brass
section in general lives up to the standard he set (in terms of
orchestral brass playing).
I will never understand why you Americans think that brass playing
always has to be as loud and blaring as possible (see CSO). Do you
think that is refined?
As can be heard in some of the Jochum recordings (but also in Kempe's
Strauss recordings, but only in the places where it belongs), the SD
brass can also inflict structural damage. That they don't try to do so
at every possible opportunity is a *musical* choice. The judicious
application of those dynamic possibilities is what I would call
refined.
I would easier understand if somebody found the brass playing in
Kempe's set a little *too* refined because of the constant color
variation by different degrees of vibrato.
I've heard Peter Damm plenty through recordings. I find him musical, but
his vibrato and his Bb horn make him sound a bit like baritone to my ears.
Just check the opening bars of the Strauss 1st. Very exciting, but rather
wobbly.
BTW, when I wrote unrfined, I was referring mostly to the cylindrical brass...
trumpets and trombone. The sounds they make can be awfully abrasive and
strident. Doesn't mean I don't like it at times. Just in comparison
to the CSO,
I don't think it's in the same league.
BTW also, I don't think I would care much for Clevenger's sound in the Straus
concerti either. My benchmarks here are Bloom, Brain, and Seifert.
--
Best wishes,
Sacqueboutier
I can see better now what you meant. Part of that brightness in forte
is caused by the recordings which are a little on the glassy side, but
part is also the particular tonal style. The sharp attacks you can
sometimes hear are more to project a "brassy" sound (someone called it
"craggy", I find that particularly well put) without having to play too
loud and thereby drowning all the other sections in the orchestra (not
completely unlike the brassiness heard on period instruments, although
the general playing style is very different, obviously).
That is what I find so unpleasant (and unstylish and unmusical) about
the "CSO style". Technically very good, but I would definitely not call
them anything like refined. But it does seem to make a lot of people
happy, and I like it in some repertoire too. Although I like the brass
sound of some American orchestras much better, in particular the NYP
and the horns of the LAP.
By refined, I refer to their general technique of playing. They have
refined the
art of breathing such that with very little effort, they can produce a
huge sound.
I don't necessarily like it when they use this to drown out the rest of the
orchestra, but that's another story.

I've heard the trombone section many times in master classes, and they are
pretty much the epitome of the art of trombone technique. That doesn't mean
I always like the result in orchestral performance. It becomes a case
of the tail
wagging the dog. Still, for the sheer art of brass playing, I think
the CSO takes
the prize.

I've used Barenboim's Bruckner cycle to illustrate this before. I'll listen to
Barenboim/CSO when I want to hear an amazing brass section plying their trade.
When I want to hear Bruckner, I'll choose Jochum/Dresden. :-)
Post by Michael Schaffer
I think one could say that the style of brass playing in American and
British orchestras, while still distinct, leans in the same direction.
I once got attacked very massively in an online forum (by American CSO
fanatics, of course) for saying that the best brass playing I have ever
heard from that stylistic area was the Philharmonia brass, especially
when John Wallace was principal trumpet. Now *that* was refined brass
playing, virtuoso and extrovert but extremely musical and sonorous with
a lot of nuances. I still remember a Mahler 5 with Wallace playing the
first trumpet with the most incredible range of colors and dynamic and
musical nuances.
Is this the Sinopoli recording? I have that and agree, it's great. I rank it
equal to Abbado/CSO. :-) Abbado is a bit more reserved interpretively,
Sinopoli is more neurotic.
Post by Michael Schaffer
I have never heard Clevenger's recording of the first Strauss
recording. Did he also record the second? I do like his Haydn
recordings very much, they are among my favorites. His Mozart album is
also very good, but here I think other soloists have displayed more
musical flexibility, including Damm although his vibrato here is quite
ample in places too and may not please all ears.
I've never heard Clevenger in the Strauss Concerto. I wrote "I don't think
I would care much for [it]". Knowing his general style of playing, I'm sure I
would prefer Bloom, Brain, and Hauptmann.
Post by Michael Schaffer
Speaking of vibrato, have you ever heard Buyanovsky's recording of the
first Strauss concerto (with Mravinsky)?
Not heard this.
Post by Michael Schaffer
I haven't heard the recording Seifert did with Mehta, but I was in the
concerts when they recorded it (not live, but during the same work
phase), plus the Alpensinfonie after the intermission with which the
concerto then shared a disc. Seifert played 5th horn in the symphony.
I have always admired Seifert as a great horn player - I never heard
him booboo once in many, many BP concerts I heard -, but I have never
been overwhelmed by him musically, stylish and tasteful as he played. I
actually liked the playing style of Hauptmann, the other principal
during the Karajan era, better. It can be heard in a recording of the
second concerto.
I was completely mixed up. I meant Norbert Hauptmann in the Strauss 2nd.
I have a colleague who has heard a recording conducted by Tennstedt that
he swears by. I think the soloist was Seifert. This guy is principal
in the band
and studied in Salzburg (with Seifert or Hauptmann?) for a year.
--
Best wishes,

Sacqueboutier
Michael Schaffer
2006-02-16 02:42:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sacqueboutier
Post by Michael Schaffer
Post by Sacqueboutier
Post by Michael Schaffer
Post by Sacqueboutier
Post by Raymond Hall
Via CD of course. One of the very best bargains (ever) is the Brilliant
Classics nice little cap box, containing 9 CDs of Kempe's orchestral
Richard Strauss, with the Dresden orchestra. I am already in possession
of EMI's Vol II and Vol III of the same, but minus the Volume I, so the
above box containing all the works that were in the three volumes, has
put matters straight.
Listened last night to Till Eulenspiegel and Don Juan, that were on one
of the CDs in Vol I. Absolutely stunning, and far better than the late
50s effort Kempe made with the Berlin PO, especially with regard to
Till. In fact, almost as good as it gets from my experience, and proof
to me that Till was at the apex of Strauss's canon, before he started
to slide down with clearly inferior works such as the Alpine (good as
it is though). What is also so stunning, and it comes across so well,
is the Dresden brass. Magnificent, and if Chicago is famed for its
brass, then Dresden must run them very close, or even excel. Kempe
however, keeps the brass section under control, as distinct from
Jochum, who lets them go ape in his Bruckner 5th for EMI.
LOL. Ray, that is a perfect description of both the Strauss and the
Bruckner! I love both without
reservation!
As for Dresden's brass, I find the tone quality a bit unrefined and not
in the same league as
the CSO (or just about any other American orchestra for that matter).
Unrefined? Apparently you never heard Peter Damm either as soloist
(also in this set) or as principal (he played in most of the Strauss
recordings, although the SD has 3 principals). I think there were few
horn players who ever played more refined and musical. And the brass
section in general lives up to the standard he set (in terms of
orchestral brass playing).
I will never understand why you Americans think that brass playing
always has to be as loud and blaring as possible (see CSO). Do you
think that is refined?
As can be heard in some of the Jochum recordings (but also in Kempe's
Strauss recordings, but only in the places where it belongs), the SD
brass can also inflict structural damage. That they don't try to do so
at every possible opportunity is a *musical* choice. The judicious
application of those dynamic possibilities is what I would call
refined.
I would easier understand if somebody found the brass playing in
Kempe's set a little *too* refined because of the constant color
variation by different degrees of vibrato.
I've heard Peter Damm plenty through recordings. I find him musical, but
his vibrato and his Bb horn make him sound a bit like baritone to my ears.
Just check the opening bars of the Strauss 1st. Very exciting, but rather
wobbly.
BTW, when I wrote unrfined, I was referring mostly to the cylindrical brass...
trumpets and trombone. The sounds they make can be awfully abrasive and
strident. Doesn't mean I don't like it at times. Just in comparison
to the CSO,
I don't think it's in the same league.
BTW also, I don't think I would care much for Clevenger's sound in the Straus
concerti either. My benchmarks here are Bloom, Brain, and Seifert.
--
Best wishes,
Sacqueboutier
I can see better now what you meant. Part of that brightness in forte
is caused by the recordings which are a little on the glassy side, but
part is also the particular tonal style. The sharp attacks you can
sometimes hear are more to project a "brassy" sound (someone called it
"craggy", I find that particularly well put) without having to play too
loud and thereby drowning all the other sections in the orchestra (not
completely unlike the brassiness heard on period instruments, although
the general playing style is very different, obviously).
That is what I find so unpleasant (and unstylish and unmusical) about
the "CSO style". Technically very good, but I would definitely not call
them anything like refined. But it does seem to make a lot of people
happy, and I like it in some repertoire too. Although I like the brass
sound of some American orchestras much better, in particular the NYP
and the horns of the LAP.
By refined, I refer to their general technique of playing. They have
refined the
art of breathing such that with very little effort, they can produce a
huge sound.
I don't necessarily like it when they use this to drown out the rest of the
orchestra, but that's another story.
I've heard the trombone section many times in master classes, and they are
pretty much the epitome of the art of trombone technique. That doesn't mean
I always like the result in orchestral performance. It becomes a case
of the tail
wagging the dog. Still, for the sheer art of brass playing, I think
the CSO takes
the prize.
I've used Barenboim's Bruckner cycle to illustrate this before. I'll listen to
Barenboim/CSO when I want to hear an amazing brass section plying their trade.
When I want to hear Bruckner, I'll choose Jochum/Dresden. :-)
I see. Thanks for explaining that. I misunderstood what you meant by
"refined". There is no doubt that they are technically extremely
accomplished, but I personally just don't like the sound very much. I
think they often sound bleak and even colorless, like a b&w photography
with enhanced contrast. But obviously, some ears just love that! I have
to admit that I used to, too, but I do so less and less. When I
relistened to Mahler 3 with CSO/Solti recently, I thought, impressive
playing, but why did I ever like that? I miss the warmness, depth of
tone, the "inner glow" that brass instruments can have, almost
completely from their sound. Interestingly, Jay Friedman has an article
on his website in which he writes that his ideal is the traditional
German trombone sound (surprising, but it's true) and there is a sense
of regret in the article that many now expect a brass section to be an
artillery post rather than a sections of instruments in the orchestra.
I do like the traditional style of Russian playing which is pretty
forced too though, so I am contradciting myself to a certain degree
here.

But all that is a matter of taste, obviously. As you may have guessed,
my ideal in brass sound is more or less embodied by the SD although I
am aware that they are often technically less precise. That is not
necessarily a lack of technique though. It is more that in that
orchestra, people listen to each other very flexibly and feel their way
through the music together rather than "executing" it without looking
left and right. That sometimes results in less than perfect ensemble,
but it can also yield much more musical results. I particularly like
the way each note is carefully sounded rather than simply projected,
although they can be enormously loud too.
The brass playing in Berlin that I have grown up hearing is decidely
more "direct" and "compact", but I have always liked the Dresden style
more, maybe because the grass is always greener elsewhere.
The most "refined" sound in the way I understood the word before your
clarification I would still say is the Vienna sound though. That is
just the way real "classical" brass sounds.
Post by Sacqueboutier
Post by Michael Schaffer
I think one could say that the style of brass playing in American and
British orchestras, while still distinct, leans in the same direction.
I once got attacked very massively in an online forum (by American CSO
fanatics, of course) for saying that the best brass playing I have ever
heard from that stylistic area was the Philharmonia brass, especially
when John Wallace was principal trumpet. Now *that* was refined brass
playing, virtuoso and extrovert but extremely musical and sonorous with
a lot of nuances. I still remember a Mahler 5 with Wallace playing the
first trumpet with the most incredible range of colors and dynamic and
musical nuances.
Is this the Sinopoli recording? I have that and agree, it's great. I rank it
equal to Abbado/CSO. :-) Abbado is a bit more reserved interpretively,
Sinopoli is more neurotic.
I was referring to a live concert with the Philharmonia conducted by
Sinopoli, but what you hear on that recording (made a short time before
that concert) is basically the same. That concert really was enormously
impressive.
I don't know what makes the difference, but I feel that somehow British
brass players have better, deeper sound while still being quite
"brilliant". Sorry.
Post by Sacqueboutier
Post by Michael Schaffer
I have never heard Clevenger's recording of the first Strauss
recording. Did he also record the second? I do like his Haydn
recordings very much, they are among my favorites. His Mozart album is
also very good, but here I think other soloists have displayed more
musical flexibility, including Damm although his vibrato here is quite
ample in places too and may not please all ears.
I've never heard Clevenger in the Strauss Concerto. I wrote "I don't think
I would care much for [it]". Knowing his general style of playing, I'm sure I
would prefer Bloom, Brain, and Hauptmann.
Post by Michael Schaffer
Speaking of vibrato, have you ever heard Buyanovsky's recording of the
first Strauss concerto (with Mravinsky)?
Not heard this.
Post by Michael Schaffer
I haven't heard the recording Seifert did with Mehta, but I was in the
concerts when they recorded it (not live, but during the same work
phase), plus the Alpensinfonie after the intermission with which the
concerto then shared a disc. Seifert played 5th horn in the symphony.
I have always admired Seifert as a great horn player - I never heard
him booboo once in many, many BP concerts I heard -, but I have never
been overwhelmed by him musically, stylish and tasteful as he played. I
actually liked the playing style of Hauptmann, the other principal
during the Karajan era, better. It can be heard in a recording of the
second concerto.
I was completely mixed up. I meant Norbert Hauptmann in the Strauss 2nd.
I have a colleague who has heard a recording conducted by Tennstedt that
he swears by. I think the soloist was Seifert. This guy is principal
in the band
and studied in Salzburg (with Seifert or Hauptmann?) for a year.
If you like the dark and round tone Hauptmann produces, you may also
want to check out Radovan Vlatkovic' recording. He is a very musical
player with a dark, full tone. A horn player from former Yugoslavia, he
used to be principal of the RSO (now DSO) Berlin, now he is a professor
somewhere (maybe even in Salzburg).
BTW, there is also a recording of the concertos with principals of the
WP playing on the Vienna F horn. I don't think these are the musically
most interesting recordings of these pieces, but the sound of the horn
is great. There is also an Orfeo release of a historic recording of the
2nd concerto with Gottfried von Freiberg, the soloist of the premiere,
but I haven't heard it.
Post by Sacqueboutier
Best wishes,
Sacqueboutier
Dave Cook
2006-02-14 03:07:46 UTC
Permalink
Beyond the R. Strauss box, I don't have much Kempe in my collection, but I'd
single out a warm and flowing Bruckner 4 from Munich on the Living Stage
label in good stereo (maybe a little tape noise), the Korngold Symphony with
the same forces on Varese Sarabande, and the Brahms 3 with the BPO.

The Bruckner is available from BRO, along with some other interesting
looking items. There's a Bruckner 8 with the Zurich Tonhalle which is good,
but that did not impress me as much as that 4.

Dave Cook
Todd Schurk
2006-02-14 03:49:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dave Cook
Beyond the R. Strauss box, I don't have much Kempe in my collection, but I'd
single out a warm and flowing Bruckner 4 from Munich on the Living Stage
label in good stereo (maybe a little tape noise), the Korngold Symphony with
the same forces on Varese Sarabande, and the Brahms 3 with the BPO.
The Bruckner is available from BRO, along with some other interesting
looking items. There's a Bruckner 8 with the Zurich Tonhalle which is good,
but that did not impress me as much as that 4.
Dave Cook
I wonder if that is identical to the really fine 4th contained in the
"Great Conductors..." twofer devoted to Kempe. That is the Bruckner 4th
I grab first these days...and I've heard many. Too many perhaps as it
has lost some of it's luster for me. I'd rather hear a good third
nowadays...
Paul Goldstein
2006-02-14 05:39:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dave Cook
Beyond the R. Strauss box, I don't have much Kempe in my collection, but I'd
single out a warm and flowing Bruckner 4 from Munich on the Living Stage
label in good stereo (maybe a little tape noise), the Korngold Symphony with
the same forces on Varese Sarabande, and the Brahms 3 with the BPO.
Ditto the Korngold. Also superb are his Strauss waltzes and Wagner bleeding
chunks, both of which used to be on cheap EMI issues. Also, all of the RPO
records he made for Readers Digest, reissued by Chesky, are first rate. But his
Richard Strauss is his greatest achievement in the orchestral department. The
Dresden box is as close to a consensus favorite as anything, and of course
rightly so.
a***@aol.com
2006-02-14 03:47:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Raymond Hall
Via CD of course. One of the very best bargains (ever) is the Brilliant
Classics nice little cap box, containing 9 CDs of Kempe's orchestral Richard
Strauss, with the Dresden orchestra. I am already in possession of EMI's Vol
II and Vol III of the same, but minus the Volume I, so the above box
containing all the works that were in the three volumes, has put matters
straight.
Listened last night to Till Eulenspiegel and Don Juan, that were on one of
the CDs in Vol I. Absolutely stunning, and far better than the late 50s
effort Kempe made with the Berlin PO, especially with regard to Till. In
fact, almost as good as it gets from my experience, and proof to me that
Till was at the apex of Strauss's canon, before he started to slide down
with clearly inferior works such as the Alpine (good as it is though). What
is also so stunning, and it comes across so well, is the Dresden brass.
Magnificent, and if Chicago is famed for its brass, then Dresden must run
them very close, or even excel. Kempe however, keeps the brass section under
control, as distinct from Jochum, who lets them go ape in his Bruckner 5th
for EMI.
There have, of course been some very great Straussians, such as Reiner,
Szell, Kraus, and even HvK, but Kempe was surely the master. His Till and
Don are stunningly brilliant and nowhere near as leisurely as I had been
mistakenly expecting. The transfers on Brilliant Classics sound even better
for some reason, but maybe that is just an illusion on my part.
Whatever, for barely the price of just over one full priced dud, this box
represents an absolute steal. Many will have Kempe's Richard Strauss of
course, as I mostly did, but if you want orchestral Strauss at its very
best, then look no further.
Ray H
Taree
He also had a fabulous model railway layout (Bachmann, I believe) and
enjoyed his off hours shunting (or shifting, as some would say).

Kind regards,
Alan M. Watkins
Curtis Croulet
2006-02-14 04:26:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by a***@aol.com
shunting (or shifting, as some would say).
The American railroad term is "switching."
--
Curtis Croulet
Temecula, California
33° 27' 59"N, 117° 05' 53"W
Michael Schaffer
2006-02-14 14:04:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Raymond Hall
Via CD of course. One of the very best bargains (ever) is the Brilliant
Classics nice little cap box, containing 9 CDs of Kempe's orchestral Richard
Strauss, with the Dresden orchestra. I am already in possession of EMI's Vol
II and Vol III of the same, but minus the Volume I, so the above box
containing all the works that were in the three volumes, has put matters
straight.
Listened last night to Till Eulenspiegel and Don Juan, that were on one of
the CDs in Vol I. Absolutely stunning, and far better than the late 50s
effort Kempe made with the Berlin PO, especially with regard to Till. In
fact, almost as good as it gets from my experience, and proof to me that
Till was at the apex of Strauss's canon, before he started to slide down
with clearly inferior works such as the Alpine (good as it is though). What
is also so stunning, and it comes across so well, is the Dresden brass.
Magnificent, and if Chicago is famed for its brass, then Dresden must run
them very close, or even excel. Kempe however, keeps the brass section under
control, as distinct from Jochum, who lets them go ape in his Bruckner 5th
for EMI.
There have, of course been some very great Straussians, such as Reiner,
Szell, Kraus, and even HvK, but Kempe was surely the master. His Till and
Don are stunningly brilliant and nowhere near as leisurely as I had been
mistakenly expecting. The transfers on Brilliant Classics sound even better
for some reason, but maybe that is just an illusion on my part.
Whatever, for barely the price of just over one full priced dud, this box
represents an absolute steal. Many will have Kempe's Richard Strauss of
course, as I mostly did, but if you want orchestral Strauss at its very
best, then look no further.
Ray H
Taree
Thanks for this very readable and also funny review. I keep coming back
to this set of recordings, however many other Strauss recordings I have
(way too many).

I only talked about this set with a friend yesterday. He doesn't have
it yet. But I can't seem to find the Brilliant edition anywhere. Has it
not been released in the US?

The only point about which I would disagree is about the Alpensinfonie.
I don't really rank pieces. Of course, I have my favorites too, but I
usually don't waste much thought on ranking them or deciding which are
more important or meaningful (although I would probably say that the
Sinfonia Domestica is both my least favorite Strauss orchestral piece
and the one I would consider his worst).
But I tend to think (more and more actually) that the Alpensinfonie is
somehow the sum and culmination of Strauss' orchestral works. I find it
musically extremely rich and varied and at the same time also a very
deep work. All that is hard to define and explain of course.
Dave Cook
2006-02-14 14:42:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Michael Schaffer
I only talked about this set with a friend yesterday. He doesn't have
it yet. But I can't seem to find the Brilliant edition anywhere. Has it
not been released in the US?
Try searching froogle.google.com for "kempe strauss brilliant".

After importation, the price does not look any better than the EMI set,
which probably has a sturdier box. jpc.de is the better deal if you're
stocking up on Brilliant classics and other budget labels.

Dave Cook
Raymond Hall
2006-02-15 00:16:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Michael Schaffer
Post by Raymond Hall
Via CD of course. One of the very best bargains (ever) is the Brilliant
Classics nice little cap box, containing 9 CDs of Kempe's orchestral Richard
Strauss, with the Dresden orchestra. I am already in possession of EMI's Vol
II and Vol III of the same, but minus the Volume I, so the above box
containing all the works that were in the three volumes, has put matters
straight.
Listened last night to Till Eulenspiegel and Don Juan, that were on one of
the CDs in Vol I. Absolutely stunning, and far better than the late 50s
effort Kempe made with the Berlin PO, especially with regard to Till. In
fact, almost as good as it gets from my experience, and proof to me that
Till was at the apex of Strauss's canon, before he started to slide down
with clearly inferior works such as the Alpine (good as it is though). What
is also so stunning, and it comes across so well, is the Dresden brass.
Magnificent, and if Chicago is famed for its brass, then Dresden must run
them very close, or even excel. Kempe however, keeps the brass section under
control, as distinct from Jochum, who lets them go ape in his Bruckner 5th
for EMI.
There have, of course been some very great Straussians, such as Reiner,
Szell, Kraus, and even HvK, but Kempe was surely the master. His Till and
Don are stunningly brilliant and nowhere near as leisurely as I had been
mistakenly expecting. The transfers on Brilliant Classics sound even better
for some reason, but maybe that is just an illusion on my part.
Whatever, for barely the price of just over one full priced dud, this box
represents an absolute steal. Many will have Kempe's Richard Strauss of
course, as I mostly did, but if you want orchestral Strauss at its very
best, then look no further.
Ray H
Taree
Thanks for this very readable and also funny review. I keep coming back
to this set of recordings, however many other Strauss recordings I have
(way too many).
I only talked about this set with a friend yesterday. He doesn't have
it yet. But I can't seem to find the Brilliant edition anywhere. Has it
not been released in the US?
I am in Australia and basically get my Brilliant Classics boxes from
Zweitausendeins, but not for small orders (say one box), because 2001 have a
flat shipping rate of 22 Euros for everything under 2Kg. For small orders I
go to MDT who mostly have all the Brilliant boxes, because their shipping
rates are charged per CD.

I recommend both Zweitausendeins and MDT for service and efficiency.
Post by Michael Schaffer
The only point about which I would disagree is about the Alpensinfonie.
I don't really rank pieces. Of course, I have my favorites too, but I
usually don't waste much thought on ranking them or deciding which are
more important or meaningful (although I would probably say that the
Sinfonia Domestica is both my least favorite Strauss orchestral piece
and the one I would consider his worst).
But I tend to think (more and more actually) that the Alpensinfonie is
somehow the sum and culmination of Strauss' orchestral works. I find it
musically extremely rich and varied and at the same time also a very
deep work. All that is hard to define and explain of course.
For me, Don Juan, Don Quixote, Tod and Till are among the peaks of Strauss's
orchestral works. The Alpine is good, but musically it is merely a linear
sort of graphical portrait, albeit with Strauss's masterly orchestration.

I also happen to love both the Sinfonia Domestica and Aus Italien (both
critically judged here by a fair majority), and the only work I don't really
love anymore, is Ein Heldenleben. Too cloying for moi, but a good wallow.

Ray H
Taree
Alexandros Rigas
2006-02-14 15:19:22 UTC
Permalink
Totally agreed!

Do not miss for anything one of the best Schubert 9th ever issued with
Kempe conducting the Munich Philharmonic Orchestra (Sony France).

http://www.amazon.fr/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00006C2F9/qid=1139930329/sr=8-3/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i3_xgl15/402-7043498-3818517

Best,

Alex Rigas
Athens
Dave Cook
2006-02-14 16:09:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alexandros Rigas
Do not miss for anything one of the best Schubert 9th ever issued with
Kempe conducting the Munich Philharmonic Orchestra (Sony France).
http://www.amazon.fr/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00006C2F9/
They don't seem to be selling it. Here's the Japanese issue:

http://cdjapan.jp/detailview.html?KEY=SICC-57
http://www.hmv.co.jp/product/detail.asp?sku=339886

Dave Cook
Richard Loeb
2006-02-14 16:27:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dave Cook
Post by Alexandros Rigas
Do not miss for anything one of the best Schubert 9th ever issued with
Kempe conducting the Munich Philharmonic Orchestra (Sony France).
http://www.amazon.fr/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00006C2F9/
http://cdjapan.jp/detailview.html?KEY=SICC-57
http://www.hmv.co.jp/product/detail.asp?sku=339886
Dave Cook
Isn't there also a complete Beethoven symphony set with him and the Munich
orchestra???? Richard
Bob Harper
2006-02-14 16:37:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Richard Loeb
Post by Dave Cook
Post by Alexandros Rigas
Do not miss for anything one of the best Schubert 9th ever issued with
Kempe conducting the Munich Philharmonic Orchestra (Sony France).
http://www.amazon.fr/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00006C2F9/
http://cdjapan.jp/detailview.html?KEY=SICC-57
http://www.hmv.co.jp/product/detail.asp?sku=339886
Dave Cook
Isn't there also a complete Beethoven symphony set with him and the Munich
orchestra???? Richard
Yes, made during the 'Quad' era, ca. 1974, I think. Reviews were tepid,
IIRC, citing a lack of energy compared with better-known alternatives. I
don't remember hearing any of them, but I can't imagine they would not
be worth hearing. I've never heard a really bad recording from the man.

Bob Harper
Gerard
2006-02-14 17:08:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bob Harper
Yes, made during the 'Quad' era, ca. 1974, I think.
The first complete set of Beethoven symphonies in Quadro.
Post by Bob Harper
Reviews were
tepid, IIRC, citing a lack of energy compared with better-known
alternatives. I don't remember hearing any of them, but I can't
imagine they would not be worth hearing. I've never heard a really
bad recording from the man.
Not bad indeed. Very natural performances. Or very 'central'.
Dan Koren
2006-02-14 22:43:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gerard
Post by Bob Harper
Yes, made during the 'Quad' era, ca. 1974, I think.
The first complete set of Beethoven symphonies in Quadro.
As Borge would say, "little did they know 5.1 was coming".



dk
Richard Loeb
2006-02-14 17:23:45 UTC
Permalink
I agree - the only recording of his that I don't like all that much is the
much vaunted 1964 Lohengrin from EMI - but I'm not sure its all his fault.
There is a real lack of impetus and inner movement - quite different than
most of his other work - one reviewer thought he was a victim of studio
over-splicing and I think that may be the case. I have ordered the Beethoven
set - can;t wait to hear it!!!!!! Bets richard
Post by Bob Harper
Post by Richard Loeb
Post by Dave Cook
Post by Alexandros Rigas
Do not miss for anything one of the best Schubert 9th ever issued with
Kempe conducting the Munich Philharmonic Orchestra (Sony France).
http://www.amazon.fr/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00006C2F9/
http://cdjapan.jp/detailview.html?KEY=SICC-57
http://www.hmv.co.jp/product/detail.asp?sku=339886
Dave Cook
Isn't there also a complete Beethoven symphony set with him and the
Munich orchestra???? Richard
Yes, made during the 'Quad' era, ca. 1974, I think. Reviews were tepid,
IIRC, citing a lack of energy compared with better-known alternatives. I
don't remember hearing any of them, but I can't imagine they would not be
worth hearing. I've never heard a really bad recording from the man.
Bob Harper
Edward A. Cowan
2006-02-15 01:40:10 UTC
Permalink
...the only recording of his that I don't like all that much is the
much vaunted 1964 Lohengrin from EMI - but I'm not sure its all his
fault.
There is a real lack of impetus and inner movement - quite different
than
most of his other work - one reviewer thought he was a victim of studio
over-splicing and I think that may be the case. <<

Back when Angel was issuing both mono and stereo versions of its
recordings, I had the opportunity, with a friend, to compare the mono
and stereo versions of that EMI Kempe _Lohengrin_. Indeed, it became
apparent that some corresponding passages in the two editions of this
set came from different takes.

The recording is stated to have been recorded in the Theater an der
Wien. Perhaps that venue contributed to the slightly "boxy" sound of
this recording. I'm not much of a fan of it, but I like to rehear it
from time to time because of Gruemmer and Ludwig and, of course,
because of Rudolf Kempe. --E.A.C.
Curtis Croulet
2006-02-14 17:04:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Richard Loeb
Isn't there also a complete Beethoven symphony set with him and the Munich
orchestra???? Richard
Yes, indeed. On the Disky label. You can get them from Berkshire right
now. --
Curtis Croulet
Temecula, California
33° 27' 59"N, 117° 05' 53"W
d***@aol.com
2006-02-15 02:06:41 UTC
Permalink
I'll admit that my exposure to Kempe has been singularly limited: the
only recording I know well is the famous EMI recording of
Meistersinger, his second of the work. Its prestige is such that I
expected much more when I picked it up some years ago. He's less
animated than either Knappertsbusch or Kubelik, much less distinctive
than Knappertsbusch. In fact, I didn't keep the set. (Wish I had.
I'd be curious today to hear the tenors again.)

Is that Meistersinger typical, or am I missing something? (I remember
liking the earlier Meistersinger more, but it's been years.)

-david gable
Richard Loeb
2006-02-15 02:25:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by d***@aol.com
I'll admit that my exposure to Kempe has been singularly limited: the
only recording I know well is the famous EMI recording of
Meistersinger, his second of the work. Its prestige is such that I
expected much more when I picked it up some years ago. He's less
animated than either Knappertsbusch or Kubelik, much less distinctive
than Knappertsbusch. In fact, I didn't keep the set. (Wish I had.
I'd be curious today to hear the tenors again.)
Is that Meistersinger typical, or am I missing something? (I remember
liking the earlier Meistersinger more, but it's been years.)
-david gable
The earlier Meistersinger may be more animated, probably because it was
recorded with minimal retakes like most Urania productions - it has its
attractions though; Frantz may be wooden but he vocally tremendous the -1951
voice in great shape, Lemnitz is past her prime but charming nonetheless -
however Aldenhoff is perfectly terrible as Walther, the braying voice off
pitch half the time and the Beckmesser is minimally competent.
I find his 1956 version really wonderful - as has been noted by a few
reviewers, in the first Act he accentuates the rhythm changes for each
little scene so that the Act really moves along; his Johannisnacht is
gorgeously played and the Berlin Philharmonic is in top form. The choruses
during the Festwiese are fabulous - I have no problem with the mono sound on
LP - Grummer is simply the best Eva - she was no looker but the voice is at
its lyric best and Benno Kusche brings an attractive voice and detailed
interpretation to his Beckmesser. There are some other cast problems
though - Frantz has traded vocal superiority for a more detailed
interpretation and Schock strains at the top.
I'm afraid there is no one perfect recording - though I get a lot from the
live Bayreuths from the 40s and the Munich 1949 which is very strong indeed.
Again I wouldn;t want to give up Kna in either the studio (warm and intimate
scene between Eva and Pogner) or Bayreuth 52.
Of course one has to have the Schorr excerpts studio and live from 1928 to
get the real essence of the title role.
This work has always been a desert island pick for me - life affirming,
optimistic and beautiful.

Richard
r***@gmail.com
2006-02-15 17:14:23 UTC
Permalink
Agreement on Kempe and Dresden.

Dresden sounds even better live, which is no longer true of many
orchestras. It's worth the trip and the money to hear them live.
George Murnu
2006-02-16 03:12:06 UTC
Permalink
For the lighter side of Kempe, I strongly recommend a Testament CD called
"Vienna Philharmonic 'On Holiday'" which he conducts. The CD contains a mix
of favorite pieces - The Dance of the Hours, the Overture to Orpheus in the
Underworld, none bettered elsewhere - as well as lesser known potboilers:
Intermezzo from Notre Dame by Franz Schmidt, Intermezzo from L'amico Fritz
by Mascagni, as well as my favorite piece of the CD (and apparently a
favorite of Kempe as well since he often gave this as an encore and there's
an aircheck with the Royal Philharmonic as well): the Kolo from Jakov
Gotovac's opera Ero S'Onoga Svijeta (aka Ero, der Schlem or Ero the Joker).
In fact, the whole opera is a delight and can be enjoyed by anybody who
loves, say Dvorak's Jakobin. It was actually fairly popular at one time and
even the Staatsoper Berlin had it in their repertoire, Maria Muller being
one of the singers. Sadly, none of other pieces that I heard by Gotovac are
at that level, though I do occasionally listen to the Symphonic Kolo.

Regards,

George
Post by Raymond Hall
Via CD of course. One of the very best bargains (ever) is the Brilliant
Classics nice little cap box, containing 9 CDs of Kempe's orchestral Richard
Strauss, with the Dresden orchestra. I am already in possession of EMI's Vol
II and Vol III of the same, but minus the Volume I, so the above box
containing all the works that were in the three volumes, has put matters
straight.
Listened last night to Till Eulenspiegel and Don Juan, that were on one of
the CDs in Vol I. Absolutely stunning, and far better than the late 50s
effort Kempe made with the Berlin PO, especially with regard to Till. In
fact, almost as good as it gets from my experience, and proof to me that
Till was at the apex of Strauss's canon, before he started to slide down
with clearly inferior works such as the Alpine (good as it is though). What
is also so stunning, and it comes across so well, is the Dresden brass.
Magnificent, and if Chicago is famed for its brass, then Dresden must run
them very close, or even excel. Kempe however, keeps the brass section under
control, as distinct from Jochum, who lets them go ape in his Bruckner 5th
for EMI.
There have, of course been some very great Straussians, such as Reiner,
Szell, Kraus, and even HvK, but Kempe was surely the master. His Till and
Don are stunningly brilliant and nowhere near as leisurely as I had been
mistakenly expecting. The transfers on Brilliant Classics sound even better
for some reason, but maybe that is just an illusion on my part.
Whatever, for barely the price of just over one full priced dud, this box
represents an absolute steal. Many will have Kempe's Richard Strauss of
course, as I mostly did, but if you want orchestral Strauss at its very
best, then look no further.
Ray H
Taree
Sacqueboutier
2006-02-16 16:40:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Michael Schaffer
Post by Sacqueboutier
Post by Michael Schaffer
Post by Sacqueboutier
Post by Michael Schaffer
Post by Sacqueboutier
Post by Raymond Hall
Via CD of course. One of the very best bargains (ever) is the Brilliant
Classics nice little cap box, containing 9 CDs of Kempe's orchestral
Richard Strauss, with the Dresden orchestra. I am already in possession
of EMI's Vol II and Vol III of the same, but minus the Volume I, so the
above box containing all the works that were in the three volumes, has
put matters straight.
Listened last night to Till Eulenspiegel and Don Juan, that were on one
of the CDs in Vol I. Absolutely stunning, and far better than the late
50s effort Kempe made with the Berlin PO, especially with regard to
Till. In fact, almost as good as it gets from my experience, and proof
to me that Till was at the apex of Strauss's canon, before he started
to slide down with clearly inferior works such as the Alpine (good as
it is though). What is also so stunning, and it comes across so well,
is the Dresden brass. Magnificent, and if Chicago is famed for its
brass, then Dresden must run them very close, or even excel. Kempe
however, keeps the brass section under control, as distinct from
Jochum, who lets them go ape in his Bruckner 5th for EMI.
LOL. Ray, that is a perfect description of both the Strauss and the
Bruckner! I love both without
reservation!
As for Dresden's brass, I find the tone quality a bit unrefined and not
in the same league as
the CSO (or just about any other American orchestra for that matter).
Unrefined? Apparently you never heard Peter Damm either as soloist
(also in this set) or as principal (he played in most of the Strauss
recordings, although the SD has 3 principals). I think there were few
horn players who ever played more refined and musical. And the brass
section in general lives up to the standard he set (in terms of
orchestral brass playing).
I will never understand why you Americans think that brass playing
always has to be as loud and blaring as possible (see CSO). Do you
think that is refined?
As can be heard in some of the Jochum recordings (but also in Kempe's
Strauss recordings, but only in the places where it belongs), the SD
brass can also inflict structural damage. That they don't try to do so
at every possible opportunity is a *musical* choice. The judicious
application of those dynamic possibilities is what I would call
refined.
I would easier understand if somebody found the brass playing in
Kempe's set a little *too* refined because of the constant color
variation by different degrees of vibrato.
I've heard Peter Damm plenty through recordings. I find him musical, but
his vibrato and his Bb horn make him sound a bit like baritone to my ears.
Just check the opening bars of the Strauss 1st. Very exciting, but rather
wobbly.
BTW, when I wrote unrfined, I was referring mostly to the cylindrical brass...
trumpets and trombone. The sounds they make can be awfully abrasive and
strident. Doesn't mean I don't like it at times. Just in comparison
to the CSO,
I don't think it's in the same league.
BTW also, I don't think I would care much for Clevenger's sound in the Straus
concerti either. My benchmarks here are Bloom, Brain, and Seifert.
--
Best wishes,
Sacqueboutier
I can see better now what you meant. Part of that brightness in forte
is caused by the recordings which are a little on the glassy side, but
part is also the particular tonal style. The sharp attacks you can
sometimes hear are more to project a "brassy" sound (someone called it
"craggy", I find that particularly well put) without having to play too
loud and thereby drowning all the other sections in the orchestra (not
completely unlike the brassiness heard on period instruments, although
the general playing style is very different, obviously).
That is what I find so unpleasant (and unstylish and unmusical) about
the "CSO style". Technically very good, but I would definitely not call
them anything like refined. But it does seem to make a lot of people
happy, and I like it in some repertoire too. Although I like the brass
sound of some American orchestras much better, in particular the NYP
and the horns of the LAP.
By refined, I refer to their general technique of playing. They have
refined the
art of breathing such that with very little effort, they can produce a
huge sound.
I don't necessarily like it when they use this to drown out the rest of the
orchestra, but that's another story.
I've heard the trombone section many times in master classes, and they are
pretty much the epitome of the art of trombone technique. That doesn't mean
I always like the result in orchestral performance. It becomes a case
of the tail
wagging the dog. Still, for the sheer art of brass playing, I think
the CSO takes
the prize.
I've used Barenboim's Bruckner cycle to illustrate this before. I'll listen to
Barenboim/CSO when I want to hear an amazing brass section plying their trade.
When I want to hear Bruckner, I'll choose Jochum/Dresden. :-)
I see. Thanks for explaining that. I misunderstood what you meant by
"refined". There is no doubt that they are technically extremely
accomplished, but I personally just don't like the sound very much. I
think they often sound bleak and even colorless, like a b&w photography
with enhanced contrast. But obviously, some ears just love that! I have
to admit that I used to, too, but I do so less and less. When I
relistened to Mahler 3 with CSO/Solti recently, I thought, impressive
playing, but why did I ever like that?
I've never liked the Solti Mahler 3rd. He was much too pedestrian in this
piece. The first movement sounds as though he simply bulldozed his
way through nature without any thought whatsoever to his surroundings.

In addition, as impressive as the playing is, the recording sounds very
abrasive
and doesn't show the brass off at its best. They just don't sound like
that when
heard live! All of Decca's CSO Mahler recordings are like that.
Post by Michael Schaffer
I miss the warmness, depth of
tone, the "inner glow" that brass instruments can have, almost
completely from their sound. Interestingly, Jay Friedman has an article
on his website in which he writes that his ideal is the traditional
German trombone sound (surprising, but it's true) and there is a sense
of regret in the article that many now expect a brass section to be an
artillery post rather than a sections of instruments in the orchestra.
Funny that the section plays the way they do in concert and on
recordings. I've
heard the section live at master classes and believe me, their sound is
gorgeous and they are musicians of the highest calibre.

Then I hear them on Fantasia 2000. I defy anyone to listen to the end
of Pines of Rome on the DVD and tell me what is remotely musical about
Charlie Vernon's buzzsaw sound on bass trombone. OTOH, I've heard him
play solo at the Eastern Trombone Workshop, and was totally floored by
the warmth of tone and musicality in phrasing.

'tis...a puzzlement!
--
Best wishes,

Sacqueboutier
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