Discussion:
Two Mahler Fourths
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Joe Vitale
2006-01-14 00:04:50 UTC
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Recently made available to me by my local used store were two Mahler
Fourths: Ben Zander's Philharmonia account on Telarc and Maurice
Abravanel's 1974 recording on Vanguard. Both accounts are my first
introduction to these two Mahlerians and both surprised me in their own
way.

I don't know why I've never purchased any of Abravanel's Mahler recordings
before but for whatever reason, this Vanguard CD of the Fourth is the first
to enter my collection, and after witnessing the quality of this
performance, it won't be my last. It's one of those readings that makes one
say yes, this is how it's supposed to go -so correct it is in its
mood and feeling. The playing of the Utah band is gorgeous especially as
heard in the warm glow of the period analogue sound that comes across
vividly but also very natural and has been remastered here (according to
the liner notes) using some restored vintage-valve Ampex equipment. The
soloist in the last movement, Netania Davrath (1931-1987) seems to have
been made for the part and her relaxed but secure performance prompts me to
seek out more of her recordings (are there any?). My question is; are the
rest of the Abravanel/Mahler recordings on as a high order as this one?
(Vanguard OVC 4007)

After reading some pretty adoring reviews here of Zander's Mahler I was
slightly disappointed with this performance of the Fourth that appeared to
me as merely serviceable. There's nothing really wrong with it but I didn't
hear anything distinctive as I hoped. Perhaps the other Zander/Mahler
releases offer something different than this one.

Probably the best thing about this 2001 Telarc release is the accompanying
second CD that offers an interesting talk by Zander on the Mahler Fourth
that is informative (but not pedantic) and reveals a personable Zander and
his love of Mahler. Also included with the talk are small music excerpts
from the works of other composers that are drawn from the Telarc back
catalogue, and of other labels (something which I found odd -did Telarc
really find it necessary to license Reiner's Beautiful Blue Danube RCA
recording when they have their own? Or Ormandy's Saint-Saens Dance Macabre
from Sony when Telarc's Kunzel is available?). Included in these musical
references is an excerpt of a recorded live performance of the Mahler
Fourth by Zander that uses an actual boy soprano in the last movement
(James Westman). The fine quality of the singing from the lad really
astonished me and that combined with the good recording quality makes me
wish Telarc included this as an alternate performance on a third CD.
(Telarc 2CD-80555)
Vaneyes
2006-01-14 00:24:22 UTC
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Post by Joe Vitale
Recently made available to me by my local used store were two Mahler
Fourths: Ben Zander's Philharmonia account on Telarc and Maurice
Abravanel's 1974 recording on Vanguard. Both accounts are my first
introduction to these two Mahlerians and both surprised me in their own
way....
And so they should. Enough experimenting. Now get Horenstein and
Klemperer, both on EMI.

Regards
Joe Vitale
2006-01-14 00:29:01 UTC
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Post by Vaneyes
Post by Joe Vitale
Recently made available to me by my local used store were two Mahler
Fourths: Ben Zander's Philharmonia account on Telarc and Maurice
Abravanel's 1974 recording on Vanguard. Both accounts are my first
introduction to these two Mahlerians and both surprised me in their own
way....
And so they should. Enough experimenting. Now get Horenstein and
Klemperer, both on EMI.
Regards
Who's experimenting? -just listening, and I have the Klemp -perhaps the
Horenstein another day.
Matthew B. Tepper
2006-01-14 02:49:14 UTC
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Post by Vaneyes
Post by Joe Vitale
Recently made available to me by my local used store were two Mahler
Fourths: Ben Zander's Philharmonia account on Telarc and Maurice
Abravanel's 1974 recording on Vanguard. Both accounts are my first
introduction to these two Mahlerians and both surprised me in their own
way....
And so they should. Enough experimenting. Now get Horenstein and
Klemperer, both on EMI.
Or any of the nine Walters; I suppose the studio recording will do if you
can't find any of the live ones.
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page -- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/index.html
My main music page --- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
I ask you to judge me by the enemies I have made. ~ FDR (attrib.)
Paul Ilechko
2006-01-14 15:42:02 UTC
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Post by Matthew B. Tepper
Post by Vaneyes
Post by Joe Vitale
Recently made available to me by my local used store were two Mahler
Fourths: Ben Zander's Philharmonia account on Telarc and Maurice
Abravanel's 1974 recording on Vanguard. Both accounts are my first
introduction to these two Mahlerians and both surprised me in their own
way....
And so they should. Enough experimenting. Now get Horenstein and
Klemperer, both on EMI.
Or any of the nine Walters; I suppose the studio recording will do if you
can't find any of the live ones.
The studio Walter is wonderful for three movements, but ruined for me by
Desi Halban, which is the main reason for my preferring Szell.
D***@aol.com
2006-01-14 19:37:52 UTC
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Post by Paul Ilechko
The studio Walter is wonderful for three movements, but ruined for me by
Desi Halban, which is the main reason for my preferring Szell.
Yes, Desi Halban isn't too good. Walter may have included her for
personal, sentimental reasons. She was the daughter of Selma Kurz, one
of the great sopranos of the late 19th and early 20th centuries and one
of the stars of Mahler's Vienna Court Opera. Walter had of course
worked with Kurz a lot when he was there with Mahler, and had known her
daughter from her childhood. After Walter died in 1962, Halban wrote a
tribute to him in (I think) The American Record Guide. She said that
when she decided to pursue a singing career, she asked Walter for help
and advice. He gave both because he thought she had the potential, but
when she said she wanted to start singing in the world's music capitals
he told her not to because she wasn't ready, needed more study to
solidify her technique and voice, and should begin in small opera
houses and theatres before pushing her voice in large ones and risking
possible failure in such places as Paris or London -- which would be
fatal to a successful career. She wrote that she didn't follow his
advice, that he'd been correct, and that both her voice and career
suffered. So she might be on the recording as his gesture toward her.
Unfortunately of course, it's a permanent document.

Halban doesn't sing very well in the Mahler song recordings she made
with Walter around 1947, either. I recall that she wrote in her tribute
that neither of them were happy with them and intended to record them
again, but were never able to.

Don Tait
Roland van Gaalen
2006-01-14 13:40:37 UTC
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Post by Vaneyes
Post by Joe Vitale
Recently made available to me by my local used store were two Mahler
Fourths: Ben Zander's Philharmonia account on Telarc and Maurice
Abravanel's 1974 recording on Vanguard. Both accounts are my first
introduction to these two Mahlerians and both surprised me in their own
way....
And so they should. Enough experimenting. Now get Horenstein and
Klemperer, both on EMI.
Klemperer? His EMI recording is nothing special, in my opinion.
--
Roland van Gaalen
Amsterdam
r.p.vangaalenATchello.nl (AT=@)
Sol L. Siegel
2006-01-14 17:38:07 UTC
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Enough experimenting. Now get Horenstein and Klemperer, both on EMI.
I tried to like Horenstein and gave up. I enjoy Klemperer, but for me
they rate behind (in chronological order) Mengelberg, Walter (in the
Bruno Walter series remastering), Kletzki, Abravanel and Tennstedt.

Abravanel's orchestra was usually overmatched in Mahler; 2 was a nice
try but not quite. In 4 the orchestra is no problem and the performance
is an unalloyed delight.
--
- Sol L. Siegel
Philadelphia, PA USA

"My reputation has nothing to do with me." - Terry Gilliam
Matthew B. Tepper
2006-01-14 18:04:25 UTC
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Post by Sol L. Siegel
Enough experimenting. Now get Horenstein and Klemperer, both on EMI.
I tried to like Horenstein and gave up.
It is for me his one failure in Mahler, I'm sorry to say. Well, maybe not
a failure, but it is not special like his 1sts and 9ths and the 8th.
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page -- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/index.html
My main music page --- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
I ask you to judge me by the enemies I have made. ~ FDR (attrib.)
A. Brain
2006-01-15 00:15:31 UTC
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Post by Sol L. Siegel
Enough experimenting. Now get Horenstein and Klemperer, both on EMI.
I tried to like Horenstein and gave up.
Is this the mid-70s recording by Horenstein with
Margaret Price? I did not like it on LP, but it
was on Monitor, as I recall. I see it's now
available cheap on CfP. So now I guess I
have to give it another chance, as a fan of
Price.



And here's another idea. Consider trying the
chamber orchestra arrangement. There are a
couple of recordings out there. It's an arrangement
by Schoenberg and one Erwin Stein supposedly
to allow for small performances in the home
or at the club or whatever.
--
A. Brain

Remove NOSPAM for email.
Michael Schaffer
2006-01-15 09:23:56 UTC
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Post by A. Brain
Post by Sol L. Siegel
Enough experimenting. Now get Horenstein and Klemperer, both on EMI.
I tried to like Horenstein and gave up.
Is this the mid-70s recording by Horenstein with
Margaret Price? I did not like it on LP, but it
was on Monitor, as I recall. I see it's now
available cheap on CfP. So now I guess I
have to give it another chance, as a fan of
Price.
And here's another idea. Consider trying the
chamber orchestra arrangement. There are a
couple of recordings out there. It's an arrangement
by Schoenberg and one Erwin Stein supposedly
to allow for small performances in the home
or at the club or whatever.
--
A. Brain
Remove NOSPAM for email.
Thes arrangements were made for the "Verein für musikalische
Privataufführungen" in Vienna, a "societly for private musical
performances" which organized concerts with new music. Once in a while,
they hired the WP, but they rarely had that kind of money, so they made
these interesting arrangements. I played quite a few of them. They are
a lot of fun and most often them are very well done.

You asked earlier about Abbado's new Mahler 4. I only heard the
recording only once, but the first impression was very good. The kind
of extremely nuanced chamber music like playing Abbado draws from the
orchestra in this, as in other recordings, seems to suit the 4th
particularly well.
My own favorites are too many to name just a few, with probably
Bernstein's Concertgebouw recording on one end, and Salonen's LAPO on
the other end of the spectrum. I just can't make up my mind about the
use of the boy soprano by Bernstein though.
But there are many other interesting ones. Maazel's 4th is among the
best in his very underrated cycle. I recently discovered Karajan's
recording. The sense of remoteness, detachedness which many of his
performances have brings something very special to the piece. I also
heard Kletzki's recently. I think it is very good, but not really so
very special. Kubelik's SOBR is very poetic and has the right mixture
of robustness and refinement.
A. Brain
2006-01-15 12:08:39 UTC
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"Michael Schaffer" <***@gmail.com> wrote in message news:***@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...

Thes arrangements were made for the "Verein für musikalische
Privataufführungen" in Vienna, a "societly for private musical
performances" which organized concerts with new music. Once in a while,
they hired the WP, but they rarely had that kind of money, so they made
these interesting arrangements. I played quite a few of them. They are
a lot of fun and most often them are very well done.
___________________________________________________

The one of the Mahler 4 that I have is on Novalis, and features
the finale sung by a boy soprano.

_____________________________________________________

You asked earlier about Abbado's new Mahler 4. I only heard the
recording only once, but the first impression was very good. The kind
of extremely nuanced chamber music like playing Abbado draws from the
orchestra in this, as in other recordings, seems to suit the 4th
particularly well.

______________________________________________________


A visit to my local truly independent store tonight--where the
dog was a lot more comfortable as there were other dog lovers
in attendance--found no copy of the Horenstein or the new
Fleming. There was a copy of the "Flicka" recording with
Atlanta on Telarc.

___________________________________________________
My own favorites are too many to name just a few, with probably
Bernstein's Concertgebouw recording on one end, and Salonen's LAPO on
the other end of the spectrum. I just can't make up my mind about the
use of the boy soprano by Bernstein though.

_____________________________________________________

I actually googled this point, having recalled that some here liked
the Bernstein and the boy. It was like seven years ago. I like it
too. Coincidentally, not having found the Horenstein/Price to hear
tonight, was looking through my Mahler section and found one I
had not heard, also featuring a boy soprano in the finale. After
listening to it and finding it shockingly good, especially in the
finale,
I went back to the thread and found it to have been favorably
commented on there--perhaps the reason I had picked it up.

The shock? It came out of Yugoslavia in the late '80s. The
Ljublana Symphony conducted by Anton Nanut. Having
been through Slovenia in the '80s a few times, I guess I
expected a lot less than this. I mean, there were horse-drawn
carts and what I used to call "Kartoffelfrauen" everywhere.
(These are large-framed older ladies in huge dresses bending
over in fields by the roadside and pulling things out of the ground.)

___________________________________________________

But there are many other interesting ones. Maazel's 4th is among the
best in his very underrated cycle. I recently discovered Karajan's
recording. The sense of remoteness, detachedness which many of his
performances have brings something very special to the piece. I also
heard Kletzki's recently. I think it is very good, but not really so
very special. Kubelik's SOBR is very poetic and has the right mixture
of robustness and refinement.


_________________________________________________

It's a great piece. I have Maazel, Bernstein II, Szell, and Nanut,
as well as the Novalis recording of the arrangement. I've heard
many others that I liked, including Ameling's with Haitink.
--
A. Brain

Remove NOSPAM for email.
Michael Schaffer
2006-01-15 12:44:06 UTC
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Post by Michael Schaffer
Thes arrangements were made for the "Verein für musikalische
Privataufführungen" in Vienna, a "societly for private musical
performances" which organized concerts with new music. Once in a while,
they hired the WP, but they rarely had that kind of money, so they made
these interesting arrangements. I played quite a few of them. They are
a lot of fun and most often them are very well done.
___________________________________________________
The one of the Mahler 4 that I have is on Novalis, and features
the finale sung by a boy soprano.
_____________________________________________________
You asked earlier about Abbado's new Mahler 4. I only heard the
recording only once, but the first impression was very good. The kind
of extremely nuanced chamber music like playing Abbado draws from the
orchestra in this, as in other recordings, seems to suit the 4th
particularly well.
______________________________________________________
A visit to my local truly independent store tonight--where the
dog was a lot more comfortable as there were other dog lovers
in attendance--found no copy of the Horenstein or the new
Fleming. There was a copy of the "Flicka" recording with
Atlanta on Telarc.
___________________________________________________
My own favorites are too many to name just a few, with probably
Bernstein's Concertgebouw recording on one end, and Salonen's LAPO on
the other end of the spectrum. I just can't make up my mind about the
use of the boy soprano by Bernstein though.
_____________________________________________________
I actually googled this point, having recalled that some here liked
the Bernstein and the boy. It was like seven years ago. I like it
too. Coincidentally, not having found the Horenstein/Price to hear
tonight, was looking through my Mahler section and found one I
had not heard, also featuring a boy soprano in the finale. After
listening to it and finding it shockingly good, especially in the
finale,
I went back to the thread and found it to have been favorably
commented on there--perhaps the reason I had picked it up.
The shock? It came out of Yugoslavia in the late '80s. The
Ljublana Symphony conducted by Anton Nanut. Having
been through Slovenia in the '80s a few times, I guess I
expected a lot less than this. I mean, there were horse-drawn
carts and what I used to call "Kartoffelfrauen" everywhere.
(These are large-framed older ladies in huge dresses bending
over in fields by the roadside and pulling things out of the ground.)
___________________________________________________
But there are many other interesting ones. Maazel's 4th is among the
best in his very underrated cycle. I recently discovered Karajan's
recording. The sense of remoteness, detachedness which many of his
performances have brings something very special to the piece. I also
heard Kletzki's recently. I think it is very good, but not really so
very special. Kubelik's SOBR is very poetic and has the right mixture
of robustness and refinement.
_________________________________________________
It's a great piece. I have Maazel, Bernstein II, Szell, and Nanut,
as well as the Novalis recording of the arrangement. I've heard
many others that I liked, including Ameling's with Haitink.
--
A. Brain
Remove NOSPAM for email.
I think I like the finale with Kathleen Battle best. I have never
compared versions directly, but her recording (with WP/Maazel) is the
one that left the best impression on me, but again, since I never
compared all the verions I have, that may change!
Owen Hartnett
2006-01-16 03:11:11 UTC
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Post by Michael Schaffer
I think I like the finale with Kathleen Battle best. I have never
compared versions directly, but her recording (with WP/Maazel) is the
one that left the best impression on me, but again, since I never
compared all the verions I have, that may change!
I agree with you. Battle makes it the most ethereal and magical --
such smooth sounds. She should do more Mahler.

-Owen
Michael Schaffer
2006-01-16 07:22:22 UTC
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Post by Owen Hartnett
Post by Michael Schaffer
I think I like the finale with Kathleen Battle best. I have never
compared versions directly, but her recording (with WP/Maazel) is the
one that left the best impression on me, but again, since I never
compared all the verions I have, that may change!
I agree with you. Battle makes it the most ethereal and magical --
such smooth sounds. She should do more Mahler.
-Owen
I think she also sand in a recording of the 2nd with Slatkin, but I
haven't heard it. Apart from the finale, I also like the rest of the
performance, one of the best played out there, with a very good feeling
for the fairy tale tone of the symphony.
Owen Hartnett
2006-01-16 14:33:04 UTC
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Post by Michael Schaffer
Post by Owen Hartnett
Post by Michael Schaffer
I think I like the finale with Kathleen Battle best. I have never
compared versions directly, but her recording (with WP/Maazel) is the
one that left the best impression on me, but again, since I never
compared all the verions I have, that may change!
I agree with you. Battle makes it the most ethereal and magical --
such smooth sounds. She should do more Mahler.
-Owen
I think she also sand in a recording of the 2nd with Slatkin, but I
haven't heard it. Apart from the finale, I also like the rest of the
performance, one of the best played out there, with a very good feeling
for the fairy tale tone of the symphony.
For me, it's the finale only. While I love how the VP plays, and the
sound is absolutely gorgeous, Maazel doesn't have the stuff that other
conductors (Tennstedt, for example), bring to the first three
movements. I've actually made a mix CD with Tennstedt EMI for the
first three movements, and the Maazel for the finale.

-Owen
Richard Schultz
2006-01-16 16:06:32 UTC
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In article <160120060933048537%***@xids.xnet>, Owen?Hartnett <***@xids.xnet> wrote:

: For me, it's the finale only. While I love how the VP plays, and the
: sound is absolutely gorgeous, Maazel doesn't have the stuff that other
: conductors (Tennstedt, for example), bring to the first three
^^^^^^^^^
: movements. I've actually made a mix CD with Tennstedt EMI for the
: first three movements, and the Maazel for the finale.

Frankly, I liked you better when you were blaming the 1980's S&L crisis
on the Democrats. For Mahler's 4th Symphony, there are only two words
that you need to know: Bruno Walter. (With Szell/Raskin/Cleveland as
a very distant second place)

-----
Richard Schultz ***@mail.biu.ac.il
Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel
Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University
-----
"We cannot see how any of his music can long survive him."
-- From the New York Daily Tribune obituary of Gustav Mahler
Paul Ilechko
2006-01-16 16:11:25 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Richard Schultz
Frankly, I liked you better when you were blaming the 1980's S&L crisis
on the Democrats. For Mahler's 4th Symphony, there are only two words
that you need to know: Bruno Walter.
Those are very unspecific words, given the number of Walter recordings.
Post by Richard Schultz
(With Szell/Raskin/Cleveland as
a very distant second place)
Matthew B. Tepper
2006-01-16 16:41:33 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Paul Ilechko
Post by Richard Schultz
Frankly, I liked you better when you were blaming the 1980's S&L crisis
on the Democrats. For Mahler's 4th Symphony, there are only two words
that you need to know: Bruno Walter.
Those are very unspecific words, given the number of Walter recordings.
Well, there is only one studio recording, but eight live performances
(mostly from broadcasts) which have additionally been issued.
Post by Paul Ilechko
Post by Richard Schultz
(With Szell/Raskin/Cleveland as a very distant second place)
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page -- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/index.html
My main music page --- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
I ask you to judge me by the enemies I have made. ~ FDR (attrib.)
Paul Ilechko
2006-01-16 17:10:08 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Matthew B. Tepper
Post by Paul Ilechko
Post by Richard Schultz
Frankly, I liked you better when you were blaming the 1980's S&L crisis
on the Democrats. For Mahler's 4th Symphony, there are only two words
that you need to know: Bruno Walter.
Those are very unspecific words, given the number of Walter recordings.
Well, there is only one studio recording, but eight live performances
(mostly from broadcasts) which have additionally been issued.
The first Mahler I ever heard was a Walter conducted 4 on LP. It had an
all-white, or mostly white, cover, and I don't think it was the studio
release on Sony. Any ideas which one it might have been?
Matthew B. Tepper
2006-01-16 20:39:45 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Paul Ilechko
Post by Matthew B. Tepper
Post by Paul Ilechko
Post by Richard Schultz
Frankly, I liked you better when you were blaming the 1980's S&L
crisis on the Democrats. For Mahler's 4th Symphony, there are only
two words that you need to know: Bruno Walter.
Those are very unspecific words, given the number of Walter recordings.
Well, there is only one studio recording, but eight live performances
(mostly from broadcasts) which have additionally been issued.
The first Mahler I ever heard was a Walter conducted 4 on LP. It had an
all-white, or mostly white, cover, and I don't think it was the studio
release on Sony. Any ideas which one it might have been?
Did it have the names "WALTER" and "MAHLER" in big block letters? If so,
it was indeed the studio recording.
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page -- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/index.html
My main music page --- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
I ask you to judge me by the enemies I have made. ~ FDR (attrib.)
Richard Schultz
2006-01-17 06:08:42 UTC
Reply
Permalink
In article <***@individual.net>, Paul Ilechko <***@patmedia.net> wrote:
: Richard Schultz wrote:

:> Frankly, I liked you better when you were blaming the 1980's S&L crisis
:> on the Democrats. For Mahler's 4th Symphony, there are only two words
:> that you need to know: Bruno Walter.
:
: Those are very unspecific words, given the number of Walter recordings.

In my experience, which Walter 4th is less important than its being a
Walter 4th. As opposed to his various dLvdE's, one of which (NYPO/Thorborg/
Svanholm, once avaiable from Naxos Historical) is, I am afraid to say,
rather stinkeroo.

-----
Richard Schultz ***@mail.biu.ac.il
Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel
Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University
-----
"We cannot see how any of his music can long survive him."
-- From the New York Daily Tribune obituary of Gustav Mahler
Richard Schultz
2006-01-16 05:45:01 UTC
Reply
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In article <***@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>, Michael Schaffer <***@gmail.com> wrote:

: I think I like the finale with Kathleen Battle best. I have never
: compared versions directly, but her recording (with WP/Maazel) is the
: one that left the best impression on me, but again, since I never
: compared all the verions I have, that may change!

The VPO/Battle/Maazel recording is without doubt the most somnolent
performance of Mahler's 4th that I have ever heard.

-----
Richard Schultz ***@mail.biu.ac.il
Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel
Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University
-----
"We cannot see how any of his music can long survive him."
-- From the New York Daily Tribune obituary of Gustav Mahler
Peter Greenstein
2006-01-15 16:26:38 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by A. Brain
Post by Sol L. Siegel
Enough experimenting. Now get Horenstein and Klemperer, both on EMI.
I tried to like Horenstein and gave up.
Is this the mid-70s recording by Horenstein with
Margaret Price? I did not like it on LP, but it
was on Monitor, as I recall. I see it's now
available cheap on CfP. So now I guess I
have to give it another chance, as a fan of
Price.
Other than the great cover I also found that Horenstein Mahler 4th on the
Monitor lp kind of lifeless.

However on CD I like it quite a bit better. I still can't decide my feelings
about some parts of this performance: does Horenstein go to sleep and it
just comes to a complete halt or rather does it communicate and incredible
sadness?

peter
g***@gmail.com
2020-10-08 13:59:57 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Vaneyes
Post by Joe Vitale
Recently made available to me by my local used store were two Mahler
Fourths: Ben Zander's Philharmonia account on Telarc and Maurice
Abravanel's 1974 recording on Vanguard. Both accounts are my first
introduction to these two Mahlerians and both surprised me in their own
way....
And so they should. Enough experimenting. Now get Horenstein and
Klemperer, both on EMI.
Regards
(Recent survey article):

http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2020/Oct/Mahler-sy4-update.pdf
henrysibley
2020-10-09 16:56:52 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by g***@gmail.com
Post by Vaneyes
Post by Joe Vitale
Recently made available to me by my local used store were two Mahler
Fourths: Ben Zander's Philharmonia account on Telarc and Maurice
Abravanel's 1974 recording on Vanguard. Both accounts are my first
introduction to these two Mahlerians and both surprised me in their own
way....
And so they should. Enough experimenting. Now get Horenstein and
Klemperer, both on EMI.
Regards
http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2020/Oct/Mahler-sy4-update.pdf
Vaclav Neumann + Czech Philharmonic Orchestra is my favorite.
Bob Harper
2020-10-10 20:53:57 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by henrysibley
Post by g***@gmail.com
Post by Vaneyes
Post by Joe Vitale
Recently made available to me by my local used store were two Mahler
Fourths: Ben Zander's Philharmonia account on Telarc and Maurice
Abravanel's 1974 recording on Vanguard. Both accounts are my first
introduction to these two Mahlerians and both surprised me in their own
way....
And so they should. Enough experimenting. Now get Horenstein and
Klemperer, both on EMI.
Regards
http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2020/Oct/Mahler-sy4-update.pdf
Vaclav Neumann + Czech Philharmonic Orchestra is my favorite.
Abravanel's 4th may not be the 'best', whatever that means, but Netania
Davroath's singing in the Finale is unequaled.

Bob Harper
dk
2020-10-10 21:46:54 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Bob Harper
Abravanel's 4th may not be the 'best',
whatever that means, but Netania Davroath's
singing in the Finale is unequaled.
Seconded.

dk

g***@gmail.com
2020-10-09 19:37:03 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Vaneyes
Post by Joe Vitale
Recently made available to me by my local used store were two Mahler
Fourths: Ben Zander's Philharmonia account on Telarc and Maurice
Abravanel's 1974 recording on Vanguard. Both accounts are my first
introduction to these two Mahlerians and both surprised me in their own
way....
And so they should. Enough experimenting. Now get Horenstein and
Klemperer, both on EMI.
Regards
http://classicalnotes.net/classics/mahler4.html
g***@gmail.com
2020-10-09 19:37:23 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Vaneyes
Post by Joe Vitale
Recently made available to me by my local used store were two Mahler
Fourths: Ben Zander's Philharmonia account on Telarc and Maurice
Abravanel's 1974 recording on Vanguard. Both accounts are my first
introduction to these two Mahlerians and both surprised me in their own
way....
And so they should. Enough experimenting. Now get Horenstein and
Klemperer, both on EMI.
Regards
http://classicalnotes.net/classics/mahler4.html
Paul Goldstein
2006-01-14 00:25:50 UTC
Reply
Permalink
In article <***@216.196.97.131>, Joe Vitale
says...
Post by Joe Vitale
Recently made available to me by my local used store were two Mahler
Fourths: Ben Zander's Philharmonia account on Telarc and Maurice
Abravanel's 1974 recording on Vanguard. Both accounts are my first
introduction to these two Mahlerians and both surprised me in their own
way.
I don't know why I've never purchased any of Abravanel's Mahler recordings
before but for whatever reason, this Vanguard CD of the Fourth is the first
to enter my collection, and after witnessing the quality of this
performance, it won't be my last. It's one of those readings that makes one
say yes, this is how it's supposed to go -so correct it is in its
mood and feeling. The playing of the Utah band is gorgeous especially as
heard in the warm glow of the period analogue sound that comes across
vividly but also very natural and has been remastered here (according to
the liner notes) using some restored vintage-valve Ampex equipment. The
soloist in the last movement, Netania Davrath (1931-1987) seems to have
been made for the part and her relaxed but secure performance prompts me to
seek out more of her recordings (are there any?). My question is; are the
rest of the Abravanel/Mahler recordings on as a high order as this one?
(Vanguard OVC 4007).
Nope. Just as well recorded, to be sure. But the 4 is the gem of the cycle. I
have, and enjoy, 1 through 3 as well. I didn't keep any of the others, as they
were simply not competitive.
Joe Vitale
2006-01-14 18:52:31 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Vitale says...
Post by Joe Vitale
Recently made available to me by my local used store were two Mahler
Fourths: Ben Zander's Philharmonia account on Telarc and Maurice
Abravanel's 1974 recording on Vanguard. Both accounts are my first
introduction to these two Mahlerians and both surprised me in their
own way.
I don't know why I've never purchased any of Abravanel's Mahler
recordings before but for whatever reason, this Vanguard CD of the
Fourth is the first to enter my collection, and after witnessing the
quality of this performance, it won't be my last. It's one of those
readings that makes one say yes, this is how it's supposed to go -so
correct it is in its mood and feeling. The playing of the Utah band is
gorgeous especially as heard in the warm glow of the period analogue
sound that comes across vividly but also very natural and has been
remastered here (according to the liner notes) using some restored
vintage-valve Ampex equipment. The soloist in the last movement,
Netania Davrath (1931-1987) seems to have been made for the part and
her relaxed but secure performance prompts me to seek out more of her
recordings (are there any?). My question is; are the rest of the
Abravanel/Mahler recordings on as a high order as this one? (Vanguard
OVC 4007).
Nope. Just as well recorded, to be sure. But the 4 is the gem of the
cycle. I have, and enjoy, 1 through 3 as well. I didn't keep any of
the others, as they were simply not competitive.
I was afraid of that, but perhaps I'll give 'em a go anyways. Forge ahead I
say.
a***@aol.com
2006-01-14 01:30:43 UTC
Reply
Permalink
liner notes) using some restored vintage-valve Ampex equipment. The
Post by Joe Vitale
soloist in the last movement, Netania Davrath (1931-1987) seems to have
been made for the part and her relaxed but secure performance prompts me to
seek out more of her recordings (are there any?). My question is; are the
rest of the Abravanel/Mahler recordings on as a high order as this one?
(Vanguard OVC 4007)
I have posted previously and sometimes at length about Netania Davrath
whom I had the privilege of meeting several times. She was a truly
great artist and delightful person whose early and tragic death from
cancer robbed the world of a most artistic and imaginative singer.

To avoid wasting bandwith you could google groups on her name and some
of my contributions (and those of many other people) should come up.

The one recording you should immediately purchase to further understand
the artistry of Ms Davrath is her recording for Vanguard of the Songs
of the Auvergne (arranged Canteloube) She made other recordings
(probably not currently available) for Seymour Solomon, who owned
Vanguard, and who was single handedly responsible for bringing her to
attention through recordings and to whom all who know this enchanting
voice must be grateful.

For about another week MDT in London have this recording (two CDS) for
the "special offer" without VAT price of £5.96 sterling. I know
that's a bit more in America but, musically, if you are taken with her
voice you will find this a most wonderful bargain in my opinion. And
that goes for anyone else reading this who is not familiar with her
interpretation.

MDT are completely reliable suppliers and I know many music lovers on
here use them, as I do.

She was a very special lady absolutely delightful as a person and
endowed with many gifts (linguistics, painting) but sadly not endowed
with the gift of good health.

I know the Songs of the Auvergne may appear a long way from Mahler but
if you look at the "folk" connection not that far apart as may be
apparent if you listen to her recording

I am so pleased you enjoyed her performance and thank you for
mentioning her.

Mr Abravanel was one of many great musicians who paid her a wonderful
tribute upon her death. I don't have it to hand but if I can find it
sometime I will post it.

Relying entirely upon elderly memory, he mentioned the Mahler 4 that
you heard and said, if not the exact words, to this effect: "At the
first rehearsal you know some singers won't give it all...like you they
feel their way. Netania was different. It was right from the outset.
Many wonderful singers can project wonderful performances from the
outside but the difference was that everything that Netania did came
from within."

What I do remember clearly is that his tribute concluded: "I am
heartbroken at her passing."

But of course, when someone like yourself appreciates her singing in
Mahler 4, she has not really passed has she?


Kind regards,
Alan M. Watkins
A. Brain
2006-01-14 01:53:48 UTC
Reply
Permalink
<***@aol.com> wrote in message news:***@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...


The one recording you should immediately purchase to further understand
the artistry of Ms Davrath is her recording for Vanguard of the Songs
of the Auvergne (arranged Canteloube) She made other recordings
(probably not currently available) for Seymour Solomon, who owned
Vanguard, and who was single handedly responsible for bringing her to
attention through recordings and to whom all who know this enchanting
voice must be grateful.


I picked up the original set of these songs, which
has the texts as well. Does the new repackaged set
have the song texts or are Vanguard guilty of what EMI
has been doing on their reissues?

I sent the new set to a friend for Christmas. Trying to
get him to "convert" using popular and tuneful classics.


And speaking of Mahler Fourths, who's heard the
new Fleming recording with Abbado?
--
A. Brain

Remove NOSPAM for email.
Richard Loeb
2006-01-14 01:57:53 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by a***@aol.com
The one recording you should immediately purchase to further understand
the artistry of Ms Davrath is her recording for Vanguard of the Songs
of the Auvergne (arranged Canteloube) She made other recordings
(probably not currently available) for Seymour Solomon, who owned
Vanguard, and who was single handedly responsible for bringing her to
attention through recordings and to whom all who know this enchanting
voice must be grateful.
I picked up the original set of these songs, which
has the texts as well. Does the new repackaged set
have the song texts or are Vanguard guilty of what EMI
has been doing on their reissues?
I sent the new set to a friend for Christmas. Trying to
get him to "convert" using popular and tuneful classics.
And speaking of Mahler Fourths, who's heard the
new Fleming recording with Abbado?
--
A. Brain
Remove NOSPAM for email.
I like the Kletzki Fourth with Loose Richard
Raymond Hall
2006-01-14 03:23:41 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Richard Loeb
I like the Kletzki Fourth with Loose Richard
Emmy Loose. My favourite Mahler 4th, and also because of Kletzki's
delightful conducting.

Ray H
Taree
Simon Roberts
2006-01-14 03:00:18 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Richard Loeb
Post by a***@aol.com
The one recording you should immediately purchase to further understand
the artistry of Ms Davrath is her recording for Vanguard of the Songs
of the Auvergne (arranged Canteloube) She made other recordings
(probably not currently available) for Seymour Solomon, who owned
Vanguard, and who was single handedly responsible for bringing her to
attention through recordings and to whom all who know this enchanting
voice must be grateful.
I picked up the original set of these songs, which
has the texts as well. Does the new repackaged set
have the song texts or are Vanguard guilty of what EMI
has been doing on their reissues?
I sent the new set to a friend for Christmas. Trying to
get him to "convert" using popular and tuneful classics.
And speaking of Mahler Fourths, who's heard the
new Fleming recording with Abbado?
--
A. Brain
Remove NOSPAM for email.
I like the Kletzki Fourth with Loose Richard
Does Loose Richard know Slack Alice?

Simon (wondering if any British readers know what the hell I'm talking about)
-E-M-
2006-01-14 14:55:35 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Simon Roberts
Does Loose Richard know Slack Alice?
Simon (wondering if any British readers know what the hell I'm talking about)
This Dutch reader doesn't know either... Is it important?
;-)

Eltjo M.,
who likes both the Davrath/Abravenel and Loose/Kletzki Mahler 4.
Simon Roberts
2006-01-14 15:21:51 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by -E-M-
Post by Simon Roberts
Does Loose Richard know Slack Alice?
Simon (wondering if any British readers know what the hell I'm talking about)
This Dutch reader doesn't know either... Is it important?
;-)
Crucial!

Simon
-E-M-
2006-01-14 18:22:39 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Simon Roberts
Post by -E-M-
Post by Simon Roberts
Does Loose Richard know Slack Alice?
Simon (wondering if any British readers know what the hell I'm talking about)
This Dutch reader doesn't know either... Is it important?
;-)
Crucial!
I see.

http://www.the-insurance-search.com/insurance-company-info-10467833/Loose-Richard-M-Insurance
loves
http://users.tinyonline.co.uk/fizgig-tom/slackalice-home.htm

Eltjo M.
Matthew B. Tepper
2006-01-14 02:49:28 UTC
Reply
Permalink
And speaking of Mahler Fourths, who's heard the new Fleming recording with
Abbado?
I'd like to know how it compares with his old one with Flicka, which has been
one of my favorites since it was issued.
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page -- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/index.html
My main music page --- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
I ask you to judge me by the enemies I have made. ~ FDR (attrib.)
Simon Roberts
2006-01-14 15:55:11 UTC
Reply
Permalink
In article <***@207.217.125.201>, Matthew B. Tepper
says...
Post by Matthew B. Tepper
And speaking of Mahler Fourths, who's heard the new Fleming recording with
Abbado?
I'd like to know how it compares with his old one with Flicka, which has been
one of my favorites since it was issued.
I'm pretty sure someone posted it to a binaries group some time in the last
month, so you can find out for yourself easily enough. I could be pleasantly
surprised, I suppose, but I would be amazed if Fleming's as good as von Stade.

Simon
Joe Vitale
2006-01-14 18:59:19 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Joe Vitale
liner notes) using some restored vintage-valve Ampex equipment. The
Post by Joe Vitale
soloist in the last movement, Netania Davrath (1931-1987) seems to
have been made for the part and her relaxed but secure performance
prompts me
to
Post by Joe Vitale
seek out more of her recordings (are there any?). My question is; are
the rest of the Abravanel/Mahler recordings on as a high order as
this one? (Vanguard OVC 4007)
I have posted previously and sometimes at length about Netania Davrath
whom I had the privilege of meeting several times. She was a truly
great artist and delightful person whose early and tragic death from
cancer robbed the world of a most artistic and imaginative singer.
To avoid wasting bandwith you could google groups on her name and some
of my contributions (and those of many other people) should come up.
The one recording you should immediately purchase to further
understand the artistry of Ms Davrath is her recording for Vanguard of
the Songs of the Auvergne (arranged Canteloube) She made other
recordings (probably not currently available) for Seymour Solomon, who
owned Vanguard, and who was single handedly responsible for bringing
her to attention through recordings and to whom all who know this
enchanting voice must be grateful.
For about another week MDT in London have this recording (two CDS) for
the "special offer" without VAT price of £5.96 sterling. I know
that's a bit more in America but, musically, if you are taken with her
voice you will find this a most wonderful bargain in my opinion. And
that goes for anyone else reading this who is not familiar with her
interpretation.
MDT are completely reliable suppliers and I know many music lovers on
here use them, as I do.
She was a very special lady absolutely delightful as a person and
endowed with many gifts (linguistics, painting) but sadly not endowed
with the gift of good health.
I know the Songs of the Auvergne may appear a long way from Mahler but
if you look at the "folk" connection not that far apart as may be
apparent if you listen to her recording
I am so pleased you enjoyed her performance and thank you for
mentioning her.
Mr Abravanel was one of many great musicians who paid her a wonderful
tribute upon her death. I don't have it to hand but if I can find it
sometime I will post it.
Relying entirely upon elderly memory, he mentioned the Mahler 4 that
you heard and said, if not the exact words, to this effect: "At the
first rehearsal you know some singers won't give it all...like you
they feel their way. Netania was different. It was right from the
outset. Many wonderful singers can project wonderful performances from
the outside but the difference was that everything that Netania did
came from within."
What I do remember clearly is that his tribute concluded: "I am
heartbroken at her passing."
But of course, when someone like yourself appreciates her singing in
Mahler 4, she has not really passed has she?
Kind regards,
Alan M. Watkins
Thanks for this Alan. I thank Davrath hit me hard because she much reminds
me of my favorite Soprano Schwartzkopf with her creamy-smooth tone. I will
seek out the Canteloube.
Joe Vitale
2006-01-21 16:55:51 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by a***@aol.com
The one recording you should immediately purchase to further
understand the artistry of Ms Davrath is her recording for Vanguard of
the Songs of the Auvergne (arranged Canteloube)
I just received this yesterday and it is indeed everything you and others
built it up to be -sublime. I don't feel a need for any other Auvergne
Songs in my collection. Thanks for the pointer.
Simon Roberts
2006-01-14 03:02:47 UTC
Reply
Permalink
In article <***@216.196.97.131>, Joe Vitale
says...
Post by Joe Vitale
Recently made available to me by my local used store were two Mahler
Fourths: Ben Zander's Philharmonia account on Telarc and Maurice
Abravanel's 1974 recording on Vanguard. Both accounts are my first
introduction to these two Mahlerians and both surprised me in their own
way.
I don't know why I've never purchased any of Abravanel's Mahler recordings
before but for whatever reason, this Vanguard CD of the Fourth is the first
to enter my collection, and after witnessing the quality of this
performance, it won't be my last. It's one of those readings that makes one
say yes, this is how it's supposed to go -so correct it is in its
mood and feeling. The playing of the Utah band is gorgeous especially as
heard in the warm glow of the period analogue sound that comes across
vividly but also very natural and has been remastered here (according to
the liner notes) using some restored vintage-valve Ampex equipment. The
soloist in the last movement, Netania Davrath (1931-1987) seems to have
been made for the part and her relaxed but secure performance prompts me to
seek out more of her recordings (are there any?). My question is; are the
rest of the Abravanel/Mahler recordings on as a high order as this one?
(Vanguard OVC 4007)
I'm glad you like this 4th; it's one of my favorites too (and Davrath's is my
favorite performance of the last movement, at least as far as the singing is
concerned). I haven't heard all of Abravanel's Mahler, but I don't like any of
the others (nor his Brahms symphonies). As for Davrath, few of her recordings
seem to have made it to CD, but as others have said, get her Songs of the
Auvergne. There's also a Mass in Time of War on Vanguard that's quite good.

Simon
Marc Perman
2006-01-14 03:42:01 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Simon Roberts
I'm glad you like this 4th; it's one of my favorites too (and Davrath's is my
favorite performance of the last movement, at least as far as the singing is
concerned). I haven't heard all of Abravanel's Mahler, but I don't like any of
the others (nor his Brahms symphonies). As for Davrath, few of her recordings
seem to have made it to CD, but as others have said, get her Songs of the
Auvergne. There's also a Mass in Time of War on Vanguard that's quite good.
I'm very fond of Abravanel's 2nd, though in an imprinty kind of way.

Marc Perman
Richard Loeb
2006-01-14 03:52:19 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Marc Perman
Post by Simon Roberts
I'm glad you like this 4th; it's one of my favorites too (and Davrath's is my
favorite performance of the last movement, at least as far as the singing is
concerned). I haven't heard all of Abravanel's Mahler, but I don't like any of
the others (nor his Brahms symphonies). As for Davrath, few of her recordings
seem to have made it to CD, but as others have said, get her Songs of the
Auvergne. There's also a Mass in Time of War on Vanguard that's quite good.
I'm very fond of Abravanel's 2nd, though in an imprinty kind of way.
Marc Perman
I recall when the Mahler 2 under Abravanel was issued the recorded sound
received lots of acclaim.

Richard
Matthew Silverstein
2006-01-14 19:15:18 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Richard Loeb
I recall when the Mahler 2 under Abravanel was issued the recorded sound
received lots of acclaim.
I'm not sure why. It seems to me that both Solti/LSO (Decca) and
Bernstein/NYPO (Sony) are significantly better in terms of sound, as are
Klemperer and Walter, for that matter. I can't stand the sound on the
Abravanel recording (at least as its transferred to CD).

Matty
r***@gmail.com
2006-01-14 19:34:25 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Matthew Silverstein
Post by Richard Loeb
I recall when the Mahler 2 under Abravanel was issued the recorded sound
received lots of acclaim.
I'm not sure why. It seems to me that both Solti/LSO (Decca) and
Bernstein/NYPO (Sony) are significantly better in terms of sound, as are
Klemperer and Walter, for that matter. I can't stand the sound on the
Abravanel recording (at least as its transferred to CD).
Matty, which Bernstein 4 are you talking about, the original CD, the
Royal Edition, or the Bernstein Century? (You're my go-to guy for
Mahler around here.)
Matthew Silverstein
2006-01-14 19:40:11 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by r***@gmail.com
Matty, which Bernstein 4 are you talking about, the original CD, the
Royal Edition, or the Bernstein Century?
My comment was in a response to a post about Mahler 2s, so I was referring
to Bernstein's first recording of M2, issued in the Bernstein Century
series. (The Royal Edition actually contains a different recording--with
the LSO.)

Matty
r***@gmail.com
2006-01-15 00:02:24 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Matthew Silverstein
Post by r***@gmail.com
Matty, which Bernstein 4 are you talking about, the original CD, the
Royal Edition, or the Bernstein Century?
My comment was in a response to a post about Mahler 2s, so I was referring
to Bernstein's first recording of M2, issued in the Bernstein Century
series.
That's one of my favorites, too. My *favorite* favorite M2 is the LB on
DG.

(The Royal Edition actually contains a different recording--with
Post by Matthew Silverstein
the LSO.)
I had that one when it came with the yellow booklet/cover. Horrible
sound. Hardly ever listened to it.
Mark Melson
2006-01-14 15:44:46 UTC
Reply
Permalink
I'm with you on that - When I was a teenager in the late 60s
Abravanel's was the only Mahler 2 I could afford, and it sparked a
life-long interest in this piece and opened the door to other Mahler.

Mark Melson

On Fri, 13 Jan 2006 22:42:01 -0500, "Marc Perman"
Post by Marc Perman
Post by Simon Roberts
I'm glad you like this 4th; it's one of my favorites too (and Davrath's is my
favorite performance of the last movement, at least as far as the singing is
concerned). I haven't heard all of Abravanel's Mahler, but I don't like any of
the others (nor his Brahms symphonies). As for Davrath, few of her recordings
seem to have made it to CD, but as others have said, get her Songs of the
Auvergne. There's also a Mass in Time of War on Vanguard that's quite good.
I'm very fond of Abravanel's 2nd, though in an imprinty kind of way.
Marc Perman
Paul Kintzele
2006-01-14 07:06:42 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Joe Vitale
The
soloist in the last movement, Netania Davrath (1931-1987) seems to have
been made for the part and her relaxed but secure performance prompts me to
seek out more of her recordings (are there any?).
It bears repeating: Canteloube - Songs from the Auvergne (also on
Vanguard). No one captures the rustic charm of this music like Davrath.
Pure bliss.

Paul
Matthew Silverstein
2006-01-14 19:08:50 UTC
Reply
Permalink
My question is; are the rest of the Abravanel/Mahler recordings on as a
high order as this one? (Vanguard OVC 4007)
Definitely not.

Matty
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