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Gatti leaves Concertgebouw Orchestra immediately
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Gerard
2018-08-02 14:38:02 UTC
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https://www.gramophone.co.uk/classical-music-news/daniele-gatti-leaves-the-royal-concertgebouw
Herman
2018-08-02 14:52:43 UTC
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On Thursday, August 2, 2018 at 4:38:04 PM UTC+2, Gerard wrote:
> https://www.gramophone.co.uk/classical-music-news/daniele-gatti-leaves-the-royal-concertgebouw

this happened lightning fast; faster than expected.

As mentioned on disc slipola, the fact that the orchestra had become disenchanted with Gatti's work after the honeymoon period may well be a factor in the quick dismissal.
Frank Berger
2018-08-02 15:16:13 UTC
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On 8/2/2018 10:52 AM, Herman wrote:
> On Thursday, August 2, 2018 at 4:38:04 PM UTC+2, Gerard wrote:
>> https://www.gramophone.co.uk/classical-music-news/daniele-gatti-leaves-the-royal-concertgebouw
>
> this happened lightning fast; faster than expected.
>
> As mentioned on disc slipola, the fact that the orchestra had become disenchanted with Gatti's work after the honeymoon period may well be a factor in the quick dismissal.
>

Rarely do I search for something on Google and come up with zero. What
is disc slipola? Is it a "fact" that the orchestra (is that the players
or management or both?) had become disenchanted? Or just speculative
journalism? Even if all that is true, how does "disc slipola" know that
"may well" have been a factor? Sunspots may well have been a factor.
j***@gmail.com
2018-08-02 15:25:33 UTC
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http://slippedisc.com/


> Rarely do I search for something on Google and come up with zero. What
> is disc slipola? Is it a "fact" that the orchestra (is that the players
> or management or both?) had become disenchanted? Or just speculative
> journalism? Even if all that is true, how does "disc slipola" know that
> "may well" have been a factor? Sunspots may well have been a factor.
Frank Berger
2018-08-02 15:55:49 UTC
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On 8/2/2018 11:25 AM, ***@gmail.com wrote:
> http://slippedisc.com/
>
>
>> Rarely do I search for something on Google and come up with zero. What
>> is disc slipola? Is it a "fact" that the orchestra (is that the players
>> or management or both?) had become disenchanted? Or just speculative
>> journalism? Even if all that is true, how does "disc slipola" know that
>> "may well" have been a factor? Sunspots may well have been a factor.
>

Thanks for the reference. Here's what the article actually said:

"We have been hearing lately of deteriorating relations between the
orchestra and its Italian conductor. Whether the sexual element is a
contributory factor cannot be ascertained......"

Great journalism.
Herman
2018-08-02 16:12:00 UTC
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On Thursday, August 2, 2018 at 5:55:56 PM UTC+2, Frank Berger wrote:

> >
>
> Thanks for the reference. Here's what the article actually said:
>
> "We have been hearing lately of deteriorating relations between the
> orchestra and its Italian conductor. Whether the sexual element is a
> contributory factor cannot be ascertained......"
>
> Great journalism.

My comments weren't just based on Lebrecht, but also what one hears and sees in Amsterdam.
JohnA
2018-08-02 16:21:55 UTC
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On Thursday, August 2, 2018 at 11:12:02 AM UTC-5, Herman wrote:
> On Thursday, August 2, 2018 at 5:55:56 PM UTC+2, Frank Berger wrote:
>
> > >
> >
> > Thanks for the reference. Here's what the article actually said:
> >
> > "We have been hearing lately of deteriorating relations between the
> > orchestra and its Italian conductor. Whether the sexual element is a
> > contributory factor cannot be ascertained......"
> >
> > Great journalism.
>
> My comments weren't just based on Lebrecht, but also what one hears and sees in Amsterdam

Meanwhile...

http://slippedisc.com/2018/08/breaking-gatti-warns-orchestra-and-media-of-legal-action/

BREAKING: GATTI WARNS ORCHESTRA AND MEDIA OF LEGAL ACTION
August 2, 2018 by norman lebrecht

A statement issued by Daniele Gatti through his lawyer in Torino:

STUDIO AWOCATO CHIUSANO

10121 Torino Via Bertolotti n. 2 – Tel. 011/4369069 Fax 436 93 03 00186 Roma Piazza del Porto di Ripetta n.1- tel. 06/32110968

ALBERTO BORBON

Oggetto: dichiarazione del Maestro Daniele Gatti

Con riferimento all’iniziativa assunta dal Presidente del Consiglio di Amministrazione e dal Direttore Generale della Royal Concertgebouw Orchestra Amsterdam di cessare il rapporto di collaborazione con il Maestro Daniele Gatti, quest’ultimo, mio tramite, tiene a far sapere agli organi di stampa che è esterrefatto e respinge fortemente qualsiasi tipo di accusa.

Il Maestro ha dato mandato ai suoi legali di tutelare la propria reputazione e di intraprendere eventuali azioni qualora tale campagna diffamatoria nei suoi confronti dovesse proseguire.

Distinti saluti.

Torino, 02 agosto 2018


Roughly, in English:

ALBERTO BORBON
Object: statement by Maestro Daniele Gatti
With reference to the initiative taken by the Chairman of the Board of Directors and the General Director of the Royal Concertgebouw Orchestra Amsterdam to cease the relationship of collaboration with Maestro Daniele Gatti, the latter, my client, wishes to let the media know that he is stunned and strongly rejects any kind of accusation.

The Maestro has instructed his lawyers to protect his reputation and to take any action if this defamatory campaign against him should continue.
Yours sincerely.
Turin, 02 August 2018
Frank Berger
2018-08-02 17:07:30 UTC
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On 8/2/2018 12:21 PM, JohnA wrote:
> On Thursday, August 2, 2018 at 11:12:02 AM UTC-5, Herman wrote:
>> On Thursday, August 2, 2018 at 5:55:56 PM UTC+2, Frank Berger wrote:
>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> Thanks for the reference. Here's what the article actually said:
>>>
>>> "We have been hearing lately of deteriorating relations between the
>>> orchestra and its Italian conductor. Whether the sexual element is a
>>> contributory factor cannot be ascertained......"
>>>
>>> Great journalism.
>>
>> My comments weren't just based on Lebrecht, but also what one hears and sees in Amsterdam
>
> Meanwhile...
>
> http://slippedisc.com/2018/08/breaking-gatti-warns-orchestra-and-media-of-legal-action/
>
> BREAKING: GATTI WARNS ORCHESTRA AND MEDIA OF LEGAL ACTION
> August 2, 2018 by norman lebrecht
>
> A statement issued by Daniele Gatti through his lawyer in Torino:
>
> STUDIO AWOCATO CHIUSANO
>
> 10121 Torino Via Bertolotti n. 2 – Tel. 011/4369069 Fax 436 93 03 00186 Roma Piazza del Porto di Ripetta n.1- tel. 06/32110968
>
> ALBERTO BORBON
>
> Oggetto: dichiarazione del Maestro Daniele Gatti
>
> Con riferimento all’iniziativa assunta dal Presidente del Consiglio di Amministrazione e dal Direttore Generale della Royal Concertgebouw Orchestra Amsterdam di cessare il rapporto di collaborazione con il Maestro Daniele Gatti, quest’ultimo, mio tramite, tiene a far sapere agli organi di stampa che è esterrefatto e respinge fortemente qualsiasi tipo di accusa.
>
> Il Maestro ha dato mandato ai suoi legali di tutelare la propria reputazione e di intraprendere eventuali azioni qualora tale campagna diffamatoria nei suoi confronti dovesse proseguire.
>
> Distinti saluti.
>
> Torino, 02 agosto 2018
>
>
> Roughly, in English:
>
> ALBERTO BORBON
> Object: statement by Maestro Daniele Gatti
> With reference to the initiative taken by the Chairman of the Board of Directors and the General Director of the Royal Concertgebouw Orchestra Amsterdam to cease the relationship of collaboration with Maestro Daniele Gatti, the latter, my client, wishes to let the media know that he is stunned and strongly rejects any kind of accusation.
>
> The Maestro has instructed his lawyers to protect his reputation and to take any action if this defamatory campaign against him should continue.
> Yours sincerely.
> Turin, 02 August 2018
>

As one comment there said, it's too late to save his reputation, even in
the unlikely case he manages to win a defamation suit.
Bob Harper
2018-08-03 06:16:30 UTC
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On 8/2/18 10:07 AM, Frank Berger wrote:
> On 8/2/2018 12:21 PM, JohnA wrote:
>> On Thursday, August 2, 2018 at 11:12:02 AM UTC-5, Herman wrote:
>>> On Thursday, August 2, 2018 at 5:55:56 PM UTC+2, Frank Berger wrote:
>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Thanks for the reference.  Here's what the article actually said:
>>>>
>>>> "We have been hearing lately of deteriorating relations between the
>>>> orchestra and its Italian conductor. Whether the sexual element is a
>>>> contributory factor cannot be ascertained......"
>>>>
>>>> Great journalism.
>>>
>>> My comments weren't just based on Lebrecht, but also what one hears
>>> and sees in Amsterdam
>>
>> Meanwhile...
>>
>> http://slippedisc.com/2018/08/breaking-gatti-warns-orchestra-and-media-of-legal-action/
>>
>>
>> BREAKING: GATTI WARNS ORCHESTRA AND MEDIA OF LEGAL ACTION
>> August 2, 2018 by norman lebrecht
>>
>> A statement issued by Daniele Gatti through his lawyer in Torino:
>>
>> STUDIO AWOCATO CHIUSANO
>>
>> 10121 Torino Via Bertolotti n. 2 – Tel. 011/4369069 Fax 436 93 03
>> 00186 Roma Piazza del Porto di Ripetta n.1- tel. 06/32110968
>>
>> ALBERTO BORBON
>>
>> Oggetto: dichiarazione del Maestro Daniele Gatti
>>
>> Con riferimento all’iniziativa assunta dal Presidente del Consiglio di
>> Amministrazione e dal Direttore Generale della Royal Concertgebouw
>> Orchestra Amsterdam di cessare il rapporto di collaborazione con il
>> Maestro Daniele Gatti, quest’ultimo, mio tramite, tiene a far sapere
>> agli organi di stampa che è esterrefatto e respinge fortemente
>> qualsiasi tipo di accusa.
>>
>> Il Maestro ha dato mandato ai suoi legali di tutelare la propria
>> reputazione e di intraprendere eventuali azioni qualora tale campagna
>> diffamatoria nei suoi confronti dovesse proseguire.
>>
>> Distinti saluti.
>>
>> Torino, 02 agosto 2018
>>
>>
>> Roughly, in English:
>>
>> ALBERTO BORBON
>> Object: statement by Maestro Daniele Gatti
>> With reference to the initiative taken by the Chairman of the Board of
>> Directors and the General Director of the Royal Concertgebouw
>> Orchestra Amsterdam to cease the relationship of collaboration with
>> Maestro Daniele Gatti, the latter, my client, wishes to let the media
>> know that he is stunned and strongly rejects any kind of accusation.
>>
>> The Maestro has instructed his lawyers to protect his reputation and
>> to take any action if this defamatory campaign against him should
>> continue.
>> Yours sincerely.
>> Turin, 02 August 2018
>>
>
> As one comment there said, it's too late to save his reputation, even in
> the unlikely case he manages to win a defamation suit.
But is he does win a defamation suit, it will at least impose a cost on
the Savonarolas.

Bob Harper
Frank Berger
2018-08-02 17:05:05 UTC
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On 8/2/2018 12:12 PM, Herman wrote:
> On Thursday, August 2, 2018 at 5:55:56 PM UTC+2, Frank Berger wrote:
>
>>>
>>
>> Thanks for the reference. Here's what the article actually said:
>>
>> "We have been hearing lately of deteriorating relations between the
>> orchestra and its Italian conductor. Whether the sexual element is a
>> contributory factor cannot be ascertained......"
>>
>> Great journalism.
>
> My comments weren't just based on Lebrecht, but also what one hears and sees in Amsterdam.
>

I haven't been to Amsterdam lately.
Herman
2018-08-02 15:26:14 UTC
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On Thursday, August 2, 2018 at 5:16:20 PM UTC+2, Frank Berger wrote:

>
> Rarely do I search for something on Google and come up with zero. What
> is disc slipola? Is it a "fact" that the orchestra (is that the players
> or management or both?) had become disenchanted? Or just speculative
> journalism? Even if all that is true, how does "disc slipola" know that
> "may well" have been a factor? Sunspots may well have been a factor.

that's a lotta questions, and you'll never make 007.

"disc slipola" is Secret Service lingo for Slipped Disc.

the disenchantment was a palpable fact; Gatti, musically, just lacked the subtlety needed for the job.
Herman
2018-08-02 15:33:11 UTC
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On Thursday, August 2, 2018 at 5:26:17 PM UTC+2, Herman wrote:


>
> the disenchantment was a palpable fact; Gatti, musically, just lacked the subtlety needed for the job.

as a ladies' man he may have lacked subtlety. Getting handsy with a soprano is a little different than trying something like that with a tutti string player. Singers are essentially perennially travelling freelancers, while an orchestra player has tenure and dozens of colleagues with whom she / he can dish the dirt every day.
drh8h
2018-08-02 23:28:40 UTC
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On Thursday, August 2, 2018 at 11:33:13 AM UTC-4, Herman wrote:
> On Thursday, August 2, 2018 at 5:26:17 PM UTC+2, Herman wrote:
>
>
> >
> > the disenchantment was a palpable fact; Gatti, musically, just lacked the subtlety needed for the job.
>
> as a ladies' man he may have lacked subtlety. Getting handsy with a soprano is a little different than trying something like that with a tutti string player. Singers are essentially perennially travelling freelancers, while an orchestra player has tenure and dozens of colleagues with whom she / he can dish the dirt every day.

Well, you know how they often used to get around that problem. No women in orchestras, except maybe a couple of elderly harpists. I assume European orchestras use blind auditions. Are the VPO and BPO still "segregated?"

DH
Raymond Hall
2018-08-03 00:24:35 UTC
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. Are the VPO and BPO still "segregated?" 

Not the BPO. Sarah Willis on Frencb Horn for many years now, and several female string players. Sarah's Horn Hangouts are on YT.

Ray Hall, Taree
Oscar
2018-08-03 06:21:03 UTC
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On Thursday, August 2, 2018 at 8:33:13 AM, herman wrote:
>
> as a ladies' man he may have lacked subtlety. Getting handsy with a soprano is a little different than trying
> something like that with a tutti string player. Singers are essentially perennially travelling freelancers, while
> an orchestra player has tenure and dozens of colleagues with whom she / he can dish the dirt every day.

It could be worse: Royal Danish Ballet under Nikolaj Hübbe; Leipzig String Quartet w/ Stefan Arzberger; French Socialist Party under Dominique Strauss-Kahn.
drh8h
2018-08-02 23:38:01 UTC
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On Thursday, August 2, 2018 at 10:52:46 AM UTC-4, Herman wrote:
> On Thursday, August 2, 2018 at 4:38:04 PM UTC+2, Gerard wrote:
> > https://www.gramophone.co.uk/classical-music-news/daniele-gatti-leaves-the-royal-concertgebouw
>
> this happened lightning fast; faster than expected.
>
> As mentioned on disc slipola, the fact that the orchestra had become disenchanted with Gatti's work after the honeymoon period may well be a factor in the quick dismissal.

I knew of Gatti mostly just by reputation, but was surprised somewhat when he was chosen, as I did not get the impression he is a "A list" conductor for such a position. That might start a question. Are there any A listers these days under the age of 70?

DH
Bozo
2018-08-03 00:07:51 UTC
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Little girls grow up to be women ; little boys grow up to be older little boys.
Bob Harper
2018-08-03 06:14:02 UTC
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On 8/2/18 7:52 AM, Herman wrote:
> On Thursday, August 2, 2018 at 4:38:04 PM UTC+2, Gerard wrote:
>> https://www.gramophone.co.uk/classical-music-news/daniele-gatti-leaves-the-royal-concertgebouw
>
> this happened lightning fast; faster than expected.
>
> As mentioned on disc slipola, the fact that the orchestra had become disenchanted with Gatti's work after the honeymoon period may well be a factor in the quick dismissal.
>
In our Savonarola-ish age, accusations turn into convictions with
lightning speed. Joe McCarthy would have ben envious of the SJWs. A pox
on them!

Bob Harper
m***@gmail.com
2018-08-02 19:04:19 UTC
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On Thursday, August 2, 2018 at 4:38:04 PM UTC+2, Gerard wrote:
> https://www.gramophone.co.uk/classical-music-news/daniele-gatti-leaves-the-royal-concertgebouw

Who will replace him is the most interesting question now.
AB
2018-08-02 19:11:23 UTC
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On Thursday, August 2, 2018 at 3:04:22 PM UTC-4, ***@gmail.com wrote:
> On Thursday, August 2, 2018 at 4:38:04 PM UTC+2, Gerard wrote:
> > https://www.gramophone.co.uk/classical-music-news/daniele-gatti-leaves-the-royal-concertgebouw
>
> Who will replace him is the most interesting question now.

maybe Herman should.

AB
Herman
2018-08-02 19:12:28 UTC
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On Thursday, August 2, 2018 at 9:04:22 PM UTC+2, ***@gmail.com wrote:
> On Thursday, August 2, 2018 at 4:38:04 PM UTC+2, Gerard wrote:
> > https://www.gramophone.co.uk/classical-music-news/daniele-gatti-leaves-the-royal-concertgebouw
>
> Who will replace him is the most interesting question now.

that's going to be very tough. There is not a single charismatic candidate momentarily who is not tied to two orchestras already.
j***@yahoo.com
2018-08-02 21:42:33 UTC
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I think the more interesting question is what happens to Gatti? Remember, Levine was at retirement age when he was called out on strikes. But Gatti, he’s in the prime of his career. Does he still guest conduct anywhere? Will he be regulated to a community orchestra someplace? Will he still conduct Otello in Berlin next year? -Which is supposed to be broadcast live on the digital concert hall.
Thornhill
2018-08-02 22:23:55 UTC
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On Thursday, August 2, 2018 at 5:42:37 PM UTC-4, ***@yahoo.com wrote:
> I think the more interesting question is what happens to Gatti? Remember, Levine was at retirement age when he was called out on strikes. But Gatti, he’s in the prime of his career. Does he still guest conduct anywhere? Will he be regulated to a community orchestra someplace? Will he still conduct Otello in Berlin next year? -Which is supposed to be broadcast live on the digital concert hall.

Time will go by. Someone will give him a second chance.

And I have no doubt that there are some male orchestra presidents who think they have the right to treat women how Gatti did and he got shafted — they'll want to help him out.
Bob Harper
2018-08-03 06:19:11 UTC
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On 8/2/18 3:23 PM, Thornhill wrote:
> On Thursday, August 2, 2018 at 5:42:37 PM UTC-4, ***@yahoo.com wrote:
>> I think the more interesting question is what happens to Gatti? Remember, Levine was at retirement age when he was called out on strikes. But Gatti, he’s in the prime of his career. Does he still guest conduct anywhere? Will he be regulated to a community orchestra someplace? Will he still conduct Otello in Berlin next year? -Which is supposed to be broadcast live on the digital concert hall.
>
> Time will go by. Someone will give him a second chance.
>
> And I have no doubt that there are some male orchestra presidents who think they have the right to treat women how Gatti did and he got shafted — they'll want to help him out.
>
I cannot approve what he is alleged to have done, but I do believe in
repentance and redemption. Destroying him is not an acceptable course.

Bob Harper
Herman
2018-08-03 07:14:57 UTC
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On Friday, August 3, 2018 at 8:19:14 AM UTC+2, Bob Harper wrote:
> On 8/2/18 3:23 PM, Thornhill wrote:
> > On Thursday, August 2, 2018 at 5:42:37 PM UTC-4, ***@yahoo.com wrote:
> >> I think the more interesting question is what happens to Gatti? Remember, Levine was at retirement age when he was called out on strikes. But Gatti, he’s in the prime of his career. Does he still guest conduct anywhere? Will he be regulated to a community orchestra someplace? Will he still conduct Otello in Berlin next year? -Which is supposed to be broadcast live on the digital concert hall.
> >
> > Time will go by. Someone will give him a second chance.
> >
> > And I have no doubt that there are some male orchestra presidents who think they have the right to treat women how Gatti did and he got shafted — they'll want to help him out.
> >
> I cannot approve what he is alleged to have done, but I do believe in
> repentance and redemption. Destroying him is not an acceptable course.
>
> Bob Harper

They're not out to "destroy" Gatti. They're firing him because of an untenable situation, created by himself.

What do you want? A conductor of on of the three best orchestras in the world doing a twelve step program in front of the orchestra?

Are you aware what kind of money these men make? With that comes a clear responsibility.
Frank Berger
2018-08-03 12:36:22 UTC
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On 8/3/2018 2:19 AM, Bob Harper wrote:
> On 8/2/18 3:23 PM, Thornhill wrote:
>> On Thursday, August 2, 2018 at 5:42:37 PM UTC-4, ***@yahoo.com
>> wrote:
>>> I think the more interesting question is what happens to Gatti?
>>> Remember, Levine was at retirement age when he was called out on
>>> strikes. But Gatti, he’s in the prime of his career. Does he still
>>> guest conduct anywhere? Will he be regulated to a community orchestra
>>> someplace? Will he still conduct Otello in Berlin next year? -Which
>>> is supposed to be broadcast live on the digital concert hall.
>>
>> Time will go by. Someone will give him a second chance.
>>
>> And I have no doubt that there are some male orchestra presidents who
>> think they have the right to treat women how Gatti did and he got
>> shafted — they'll want to help him out.
>>
> I cannot approve what he is alleged to have done, but I do believe in
> repentance and redemption. Destroying him is not an acceptable course.
>
> Bob Harper

Repentance and redemption are between him and God.
Individuals may be morally/religiously obligated to forgive a truly
repenting sinner who has harmed them, but employers are not. They have
other employees to protect as well as their own reputations. The line
between acting responsibly and caving to political correctness is not
always clear. Employers should have well defined standards of behavior
and some sort of due process, but beyond that have no obligation to
continue anyone's employment. It doesn't matter if in Gatti's case the
Concertgebouw (musicians or management) were unhappy with his job
performance before his alleged misbehavior.
Thornhill
2018-08-03 13:15:28 UTC
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On Friday, August 3, 2018 at 2:19:14 AM UTC-4, Bob Harper wrote:
> On 8/2/18 3:23 PM, Thornhill wrote:
> > On Thursday, August 2, 2018 at 5:42:37 PM UTC-4, ***@yahoo.com wrote:
> >> I think the more interesting question is what happens to Gatti? Remember, Levine was at retirement age when he was called out on strikes. But Gatti, he’s in the prime of his career. Does he still guest conduct anywhere? Will he be regulated to a community orchestra someplace? Will he still conduct Otello in Berlin next year? -Which is supposed to be broadcast live on the digital concert hall.
> >
> > Time will go by. Someone will give him a second chance.
> >
> > And I have no doubt that there are some male orchestra presidents who think they have the right to treat women how Gatti did and he got shafted — they'll want to help him out.
> >
> I cannot approve what he is alleged to have done, but I do believe in
> repentance and redemption. Destroying him is not an acceptable course.
>
> Bob Harper

Losing the privilege to conduct elite orchestras for a very long time is hardly "destroying" someone. It's a more than acceptable punishment.
Frank Berger
2018-08-03 13:20:34 UTC
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On 8/3/2018 9:15 AM, Thornhill wrote:
> On Friday, August 3, 2018 at 2:19:14 AM UTC-4, Bob Harper wrote:
>> On 8/2/18 3:23 PM, Thornhill wrote:
>>> On Thursday, August 2, 2018 at 5:42:37 PM UTC-4, ***@yahoo.com wrote:
>>>> I think the more interesting question is what happens to Gatti? Remember, Levine was at retirement age when he was called out on strikes. But Gatti, he’s in the prime of his career. Does he still guest conduct anywhere? Will he be regulated to a community orchestra someplace? Will he still conduct Otello in Berlin next year? -Which is supposed to be broadcast live on the digital concert hall.
>>>
>>> Time will go by. Someone will give him a second chance.
>>>
>>> And I have no doubt that there are some male orchestra presidents who think they have the right to treat women how Gatti did and he got shafted — they'll want to help him out.
>>>
>> I cannot approve what he is alleged to have done, but I do believe in
>> repentance and redemption. Destroying him is not an acceptable course.
>>
>> Bob Harper
>
> Losing the privilege to conduct elite orchestras for a very long time is hardly "destroying" someone. It's a more than acceptable punishment.
>

It's not really punishment in the strict sense. It's orchestras
protecting their employees and their reputations.
n***@gmail.com
2018-08-03 13:32:26 UTC
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On Friday, August 3, 2018 at 9:20:40 AM UTC-4, Frank Berger wrote:
> On 8/3/2018 9:15 AM, Thornhill wrote:
> > On Friday, August 3, 2018 at 2:19:14 AM UTC-4, Bob Harper wrote:
> >> On 8/2/18 3:23 PM, Thornhill wrote:
> >>> On Thursday, August 2, 2018 at 5:42:37 PM UTC-4, ***@yahoo.com wrote:
> >>>> I think the more interesting question is what happens to Gatti? Remember, Levine was at retirement age when he was called out on strikes. But Gatti, he’s in the prime of his career. Does he still guest conduct anywhere? Will he be regulated to a community orchestra someplace? Will he still conduct Otello in Berlin next year? -Which is supposed to be broadcast live on the digital concert hall.
> >>>
> >>> Time will go by. Someone will give him a second chance.
> >>>
> >>> And I have no doubt that there are some male orchestra presidents who think they have the right to treat women how Gatti did and he got shafted — they'll want to help him out.
> >>>
> >> I cannot approve what he is alleged to have done, but I do believe in
> >> repentance and redemption. Destroying him is not an acceptable course.
> >>
> >> Bob Harper
> >
> > Losing the privilege to conduct elite orchestras for a very long time is hardly "destroying" someone. It's a more than acceptable punishment.
> >
>
> It's not really punishment in the strict sense. It's orchestras
> protecting their employees and their reputations.

If the means of my livelihood was taken (and my reputation tarnished) I'd feel punished.
Frank Berger
2018-08-03 15:19:58 UTC
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On 8/3/2018 9:32 AM, ***@gmail.com wrote:
> On Friday, August 3, 2018 at 9:20:40 AM UTC-4, Frank Berger wrote:
>> On 8/3/2018 9:15 AM, Thornhill wrote:
>>> On Friday, August 3, 2018 at 2:19:14 AM UTC-4, Bob Harper wrote:
>>>> On 8/2/18 3:23 PM, Thornhill wrote:
>>>>> On Thursday, August 2, 2018 at 5:42:37 PM UTC-4, ***@yahoo.com wrote:
>>>>>> I think the more interesting question is what happens to Gatti? Remember, Levine was at retirement age when he was called out on strikes. But Gatti, he’s in the prime of his career. Does he still guest conduct anywhere? Will he be regulated to a community orchestra someplace? Will he still conduct Otello in Berlin next year? -Which is supposed to be broadcast live on the digital concert hall.
>>>>>
>>>>> Time will go by. Someone will give him a second chance.
>>>>>
>>>>> And I have no doubt that there are some male orchestra presidents who think they have the right to treat women how Gatti did and he got shafted — they'll want to help him out.
>>>>>
>>>> I cannot approve what he is alleged to have done, but I do believe in
>>>> repentance and redemption. Destroying him is not an acceptable course.
>>>>
>>>> Bob Harper
>>>
>>> Losing the privilege to conduct elite orchestras for a very long time is hardly "destroying" someone. It's a more than acceptable punishment.
>>>
>>
>> It's not really punishment in the strict sense. It's orchestras
>> protecting their employees and their reputations.
>
> If the means of my livelihood was taken (and my reputation tarnished) I'd feel punished.
>

Yeah, I probably had a strange definition of "punishment" in my head
when wrote that. I was thinking that the motivation for punishment is
revenge or retribution. I don't think employers fire employees for that
reason. As I said they do it to protect themselves and their employees.
Thornhill
2018-08-03 16:31:31 UTC
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On Friday, August 3, 2018 at 9:32:29 AM UTC-4, ***@gmail.com wrote:
> On Friday, August 3, 2018 at 9:20:40 AM UTC-4, Frank Berger wrote:
> > On 8/3/2018 9:15 AM, Thornhill wrote:
> > > On Friday, August 3, 2018 at 2:19:14 AM UTC-4, Bob Harper wrote:
> > >> On 8/2/18 3:23 PM, Thornhill wrote:
> > >>> On Thursday, August 2, 2018 at 5:42:37 PM UTC-4, ***@yahoo.com wrote:
> > >>>> I think the more interesting question is what happens to Gatti? Remember, Levine was at retirement age when he was called out on strikes. But Gatti, he’s in the prime of his career. Does he still guest conduct anywhere? Will he be regulated to a community orchestra someplace? Will he still conduct Otello in Berlin next year? -Which is supposed to be broadcast live on the digital concert hall.
> > >>>
> > >>> Time will go by. Someone will give him a second chance.
> > >>>
> > >>> And I have no doubt that there are some male orchestra presidents who think they have the right to treat women how Gatti did and he got shafted — they'll want to help him out.
> > >>>
> > >> I cannot approve what he is alleged to have done, but I do believe in
> > >> repentance and redemption. Destroying him is not an acceptable course.
> > >>
> > >> Bob Harper
> > >
> > > Losing the privilege to conduct elite orchestras for a very long time is hardly "destroying" someone. It's a more than acceptable punishment.
> > >
> >
> > It's not really punishment in the strict sense. It's orchestras
> > protecting their employees and their reputations.
>
> If the means of my livelihood was taken (and my reputation tarnished) I'd feel punished.

There are consequences to bad behavior.

How should this situation have been handled? The WP never published its story and instead told the RCO about its investigation, and then the RCO announced that Gatti was resigning to spend more time with his family?

If he can never get another gig with an elite orchestra because people don't want to work with someone who has a reputation for sexually harassing and assaulting women, well, that's his fault.
Herman
2018-08-03 16:53:05 UTC
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On Friday, August 3, 2018 at 6:31:34 PM UTC+2, Thornhill wrote:
> On Friday, August 3, 2018 at 9:32:29 AM UTC-4, ***@gmail.com wrote:

> >
> > If the means of my livelihood was taken (and my reputation tarnished) I'd feel punished.
>
> There are consequences to bad behavior.
>
absolutely.
Herman
2018-08-11 08:13:14 UTC
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Guest conductors filling in for Gatti in August and September are Haitink (doin' Mahler 9), Honeck, Hengelbrock and Kerem Hasan.
Gerard
2018-08-11 15:55:39 UTC
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Op zaterdag 11 augustus 2018 10:13:16 UTC+2 schreef Herman:
> Guest conductors filling in for Gatti in August and September are Haitink (doin' Mahler 9), Honeck, Hengelbrock and Kerem Hasan.

All available names starting with 'H'?
Herman
2018-08-11 15:59:28 UTC
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On Saturday, August 11, 2018 at 5:55:42 PM UTC+2, Gerard wrote:
> Op zaterdag 11 augustus 2018 10:13:16 UTC+2 schreef Herman:
> > Guest conductors filling in for Gatti in August and September are Haitink (doin' Mahler 9), Honeck, Hengelbrock and Kerem Hasan.
>
> All available names starting with 'H'?

H for Help.

Not for HimToo.
j***@yahoo.com
2018-08-11 16:25:05 UTC
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H comes after G.
Herman
2018-08-11 16:53:40 UTC
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On Saturday, August 11, 2018 at 6:25:07 PM UTC+2, ***@yahoo.com wrote:
> H comes after G.

Yeah, I guess that was the thinking.

They're going thru their rolodex real slow.
dk
2018-08-11 18:43:55 UTC
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On Saturday, August 11, 2018 at 9:53:43 AM UTC-7, Herman wrote:
> On Saturday, August 11, 2018 at 6:25:07 PM UTC+2, ***@yahoo.com wrote:
> > H comes after G.
> Yeah, I guess that was the thinking.
> They're going thru their rolodex real slow.

Looks like a great opportunity to disband
the RCO and re-purpose the hall for solo
piano recitals! ;-)

dk
HT
2018-08-11 19:59:41 UTC
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> Looks like a great opportunity to disband
> the RCO and re-purpose the hall for solo
> piano recitals! ;-)

What about a Concertgebouw Hotel?

Henk
dk
2018-08-12 00:33:30 UTC
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On Saturday, August 11, 2018 at 12:59:43 PM UTC-7, HT wrote:
> > Looks like a great opportunity to disband
> > the RCO and re-purpose the hall for solo
> > piano recitals! ;-)
>
> What about a Concertgebouw Hotel?

In a 19th century building ?!?
Amsterdam already has too many
old creaky moldy hotels! Come
to think of it, an indoor ice
rink would be best! ;-)

dk
Bozo
2018-08-17 00:00:20 UTC
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>On Saturday, August 11, 2018 at 7:33:33 PM UTC-5, dk wrote:
> Amsterdam already has too many
> old creaky moldy hotels!


Does the " Yankee Hotel " still exist ? A 5th floor walk-up pensione down the street several blocks to one's right as one exited the Hauptbanhof downtown ?
Gerard
2018-08-17 08:58:02 UTC
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Op vrijdag 17 augustus 2018 02:00:24 UTC+2 schreef Bozo:
> >On Saturday, August 11, 2018 at 7:33:33 PM UTC-5, dk wrote:
> > Amsterdam already has too many
> > old creaky moldy hotels!
>
>
> Does the " Yankee Hotel " still exist ? A 5th floor walk-up pensione down the street several blocks to one's right as one exited the Hauptbanhof downtown ?

Is there a hof in Amsterdam called Hauptbanhof?
m***@gmail.com
2018-08-17 10:47:57 UTC
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On Friday, August 17, 2018 at 4:58:04 AM UTC-4, Gerard wrote:
> Op vrijdag 17 augustus 2018 02:00:24 UTC+2 schreef Bozo:
> > >On Saturday, August 11, 2018 at 7:33:33 PM UTC-5, dk wrote:
> > > Amsterdam already has too many
> > > old creaky moldy hotels!
> >
> >
> > Does the " Yankee Hotel " still exist ? A 5th floor walk-up pensione down the street several blocks to one's right as one exited the Hauptbanhof downtown ?
>
> Is there a hof in Amsterdam called Hauptbanhof?

Note the correct spelling

https://www.iamsterdam.com/de/see-and-do/things-to-do/attraktionen-und-sehenswurdigkeiten/was-sie-sehen-sollten/amsterdam-centraal-station-hauptbahnhof
Gerard
2018-08-17 14:36:18 UTC
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Op vrijdag 17 augustus 2018 12:48:00 UTC+2 schreef ***@gmail.com:
> On Friday, August 17, 2018 at 4:58:04 AM UTC-4, Gerard wrote:
> > Op vrijdag 17 augustus 2018 02:00:24 UTC+2 schreef Bozo:
> > > >On Saturday, August 11, 2018 at 7:33:33 PM UTC-5, dk wrote:
> > > > Amsterdam already has too many
> > > > old creaky moldy hotels!
> > >
> > >
> > > Does the " Yankee Hotel " still exist ? A 5th floor walk-up pensione down the street several blocks to one's right as one exited the Hauptbanhof downtown ?
> >
> > Is there a hof in Amsterdam called Hauptbanhof?
>
> Note the correct spelling
>
> https://www.iamsterdam.com/de/see-and-do/things-to-do/attraktionen-und-sehenswurdigkeiten/was-sie-sehen-sollten/amsterdam-centraal-station-hauptbahnhof

Thanks. I see.
The correct spelling is: Centraal Station.
Herman
2018-08-17 15:38:24 UTC
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Let's call the US die Vereinigte Staten henceforth, if we're going to make German the leading language here after all these years since Schaffer's departure.
dk
2018-08-18 07:41:54 UTC
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On Friday, August 17, 2018 at 11:38:28 PM UTC+8, Herman wrote:
> Let's call the US die Vereinigte Staten henceforth,
> if we're going to make German the leading language
> here after all these years since Schaffer's departure.

Deutschland über Alles!
French speakers, please
move elsewhere! ;-)

dk
n***@gmail.com
2018-08-18 17:53:05 UTC
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On Friday, August 17, 2018 at 11:38:28 AM UTC-4, Herman wrote:
> Let's call the US die Vereinigte Staten henceforth, if we're going to make German the leading language here after all these years since Schaffer's departure.

While we're at it, "Vereinigte Staaten"?
c***@gmail.com
2018-08-18 19:03:04 UTC
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On Saturday, August 18, 2018 at 1:53:08 PM UTC-4, ***@gmail.com wrote:
> On Friday, August 17, 2018 at 11:38:28 AM UTC-4, Herman wrote:
> > Let's call the US die Vereinigte Staten henceforth, if we're going to make German the leading language here after all these years since Schaffer's departure.
>
> While we're at it, "Vereinigte Staaten"?

I've always liked Estados Unidos​, principally because it is abbreviated EE.UU. Eeeeewwww :-)

AC
O
2018-08-19 21:04:38 UTC
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In article <0c979a82-a376-439e-ae4e-***@googlegroups.com>,
<***@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Saturday, August 18, 2018 at 1:53:08 PM UTC-4, ***@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Friday, August 17, 2018 at 11:38:28 AM UTC-4, Herman wrote:
> > > Let's call the US die Vereinigte Staten henceforth, if we're going to
> > > make German the leading language here after all these years since
> > > Schaffer's departure.
> >
> > While we're at it, "Vereinigte Staaten"?
>
> I've always liked Estados Unidos?, principally because it is abbreviated
> EE.UU. Eeeeewwww :-)
>


My 6 year old granddaughter who lives in the midwest flew in to see us,
and we went to an amusement park. She's good at quickly making
friends, and having played with another girl at the park, the other
girl's mother asked her:

"Where do you live?"

"In Avon"

"That's nice, what State is that in?"

"United."

-Owen, close enough for government work, I guess.
Herman
2018-08-20 06:31:28 UTC
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On Sunday, August 19, 2018 at 11:04:45 PM UTC+2, O wrote:
:
>
> "Where do you live?"
>
> "In Avon"
>
> "That's nice, what State is that in?"
>
> "United."
>
Great! She's clearly been trained not to give her address to strangers.
l***@gmail.com
2018-08-18 20:07:43 UTC
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On Thursday, August 16, 2018 at 8:00:24 PM UTC-4, Bozo wrote:
> >On Saturday, August 11, 2018 at 7:33:33 PM UTC-5, dk wrote:
> > Amsterdam already has too many
> > old creaky moldy hotels!
>
>
> Does the " Yankee Hotel " still exist ? A 5th floor walk-up pensione down the street several blocks to one's right as one exited the Hauptbanhof downtown ?

Hi,

The Dutch have their own language, thank you. "Hauptbahnhof"is German.

Mort Linder
Gerard
2018-08-18 21:46:24 UTC
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Op zaterdag 18 augustus 2018 22:07:45 UTC+2 schreef ***@gmail.com:
> On Thursday, August 16, 2018 at 8:00:24 PM UTC-4, Bozo wrote:
> > >On Saturday, August 11, 2018 at 7:33:33 PM UTC-5, dk wrote:
> > > Amsterdam already has too many
> > > old creaky moldy hotels!
> >
> >
> > Does the " Yankee Hotel " still exist ? A 5th floor walk-up pensione down the street several blocks to one's right as one exited the Hauptbanhof downtown ?
>
> Hi,
>
> The Dutch have their own language, thank you. "Hauptbahnhof"is German.
>
> Mort Linder

That's correct.
See also: Wo ist der Bahnhof? - at:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x67rym66tbs
Al Eisner
2018-08-16 21:28:18 UTC
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On Sat, 11 Aug 2018, Herman wrote:

> On Saturday, August 11, 2018 at 6:25:07 PM UTC+2, ***@yahoo.com wrote:
>> H comes after G.
>
> Yeah, I guess that was the thinking.
>
> They're going thru their rolodex real slow.
>
They must have filed Heras-Casado under "C".

Al
Frank Berger
2018-08-03 18:45:04 UTC
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On 8/3/2018 12:31 PM, Thornhill wrote:
> On Friday, August 3, 2018 at 9:32:29 AM UTC-4, ***@gmail.com wrote:
>> On Friday, August 3, 2018 at 9:20:40 AM UTC-4, Frank Berger wrote:
>>> On 8/3/2018 9:15 AM, Thornhill wrote:
>>>> On Friday, August 3, 2018 at 2:19:14 AM UTC-4, Bob Harper wrote:
>>>>> On 8/2/18 3:23 PM, Thornhill wrote:
>>>>>> On Thursday, August 2, 2018 at 5:42:37 PM UTC-4, ***@yahoo.com wrote:
>>>>>>> I think the more interesting question is what happens to Gatti? Remember, Levine was at retirement age when he was called out on strikes. But Gatti, he’s in the prime of his career. Does he still guest conduct anywhere? Will he be regulated to a community orchestra someplace? Will he still conduct Otello in Berlin next year? -Which is supposed to be broadcast live on the digital concert hall.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Time will go by. Someone will give him a second chance.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And I have no doubt that there are some male orchestra presidents who think they have the right to treat women how Gatti did and he got shafted — they'll want to help him out.
>>>>>>
>>>>> I cannot approve what he is alleged to have done, but I do believe in
>>>>> repentance and redemption. Destroying him is not an acceptable course.
>>>>>
>>>>> Bob Harper
>>>>
>>>> Losing the privilege to conduct elite orchestras for a very long time is hardly "destroying" someone. It's a more than acceptable punishment.
>>>>
>>>
>>> It's not really punishment in the strict sense. It's orchestras
>>> protecting their employees and their reputations.
>>
>> If the means of my livelihood was taken (and my reputation tarnished) I'd feel punished.
>
> There are consequences to bad behavior.
>

I don't think anyone said or implied otherwise.

> How should this situation have been handled? The WP never published its story and instead told the RCO about its investigation, and then the RCO announced that Gatti was resigning to spend more time with his family?
>

Did anyone suggest it should have been handled otherwise?


> If he can never get another gig with an elite orchestra because people don't want to work with someone who has a reputation for sexually harassing and assaulting women, well, that's his fault.
>

Did anyone suggest it wasn't?


There is a question of the punishment fitting the crime, though. There
are degrees of evil and punishments vary in severity. I'm not suggesting
about Gatti's or any other particular case. Where I used to work I'm
only familiar with some he said/she said cases. What generally happened
was a woman would accuse a man of something that was unwitnessed,
ranging fron unwanted back rubs all the way to quid pro quo type offers.
The accused was called in and told that he was accused and that if he
did it he had to stop and that if he was caught doing it he would be
fired. The accuser was told the accused had been so informed. Some
cases ended like that. Nobody was happy about this, of course. Sometimes
the accused and accused went on to be able to work together and
sometimes one or the other would quit (usually the accuser). In two
cases the accused was later observed doing something offensive and one
of those was fired. The other, a quite senior person was severely
rebuked and as word got out, embarrassed, and perhaps his advancement
was halted. I'm not aware of cases of multiple accusers, which seem to
be taken as evidence in and of itself.
Bob Harper
2018-08-04 15:25:35 UTC
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On 8/3/18 11:45 AM, Frank Berger wrote:

>
> There is a question of the punishment fitting the crime, though.  There
> are degrees of evil and punishments vary in severity. I'm not suggesting
> about Gatti's or any other particular case.  Where I used to work I'm
> only familiar with some he said/she said cases.  What generally happened
> was a woman would accuse a man of something that was unwitnessed,
> ranging fron unwanted back rubs all the way to quid pro quo type offers.
> The accused was called in and told that he was accused and that if he
> did it he had to stop and that if he was caught doing it he would be
> fired.  The accuser was told the accused had been so informed.  Some
> cases ended like that. Nobody was happy about this, of course. Sometimes
> the accused and accused went on to be able to work together and
> sometimes one or the other would quit (usually the accuser).  In two
> cases the accused was later observed doing something offensive and one
> of those was fired.  The other, a quite senior person was severely
> rebuked and as word got out, embarrassed, and perhaps his advancement
> was halted.  I'm not aware of cases of multiple accusers, which seem to
> be taken as evidence in and of itself.

This seems to me a pretty sensible way to handle such things, certainly
better than the 'allegation=guilt, off with (usually) his head!' that
seems to obtain today. In the case of *criminal* acts or accusations, of
course, the authorities need to be involved sooner rather than later.

Bob Harper
Russ (not Martha)
2018-08-03 16:28:20 UTC
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On Thursday, August 2, 2018 at 2:04:22 PM UTC-5, ***@gmail.com wrote:
> On Thursday, August 2, 2018 at 4:38:04 PM UTC+2, Gerard wrote:
> > https://www.gramophone.co.uk/classical-music-news/daniele-gatti-leaves-the-royal-concertgebouw
>
> Who will replace him is the most interesting question now.

The safest bet would be a castrato.

Russ (not Martha)
Andrew Clarke
2018-08-03 23:48:18 UTC
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On Friday, August 3, 2018 at 12:38:04 AM UTC+10, Gerard wrote:
> https://www.gramophone.co.uk/classical-music-news/daniele-gatti-leaves-the-royal-concertgebouw

"Gatti, Gatti, il mio Daniele,
Best take up the ukulele,
Deh vieni alle finestre daily,
De Wallen is safer than chasing tail ..."

Performances by Gatti and the Berlin Phil can be seen and heard streaming from the BPO's Digital Concert Hall, including a very fine Brahms Symphony no 2. In a following interview, the interviewer mentions that Gatti had found things in this work that nobody had heard before. And if you can do that for the BPO, you're no mean conductor, surely?

Incidentally the streaming videos reveal several female players, mostly in the string sections.

Andrew Clarke
Canberra
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