Discussion:
Leo Borchardt
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Rolf
2006-01-29 09:46:41 UTC
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Hello all,

Could someone tell me a bit more about the conductor Leo Borchardt?
Google tells me he has been shot at checkpoint Charlie in 1945, but
nothing more....


Rolf
http://homepages.ipact.nl/~otterhouse
Matthew B. Tepper
2006-01-29 18:45:51 UTC
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Post by Rolf
Hello all,
Could someone tell me a bit more about the conductor Leo Borchardt?
Google tells me he has been shot at checkpoint Charlie in 1945, but
nothing more....
I read somewhere that he was supposed to have taken over the Berlin
Philharmonic while Furtwängler's denazification procedures were under way,
but that's about all I know. Borchard's death left the way open for a
certain apolitical Roumanian philosophy student to take over instead.
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page -- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/index.html
My main music page --- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
I ask you to judge me by the enemies I have made. ~ FDR (attrib.)
D***@aol.com
2006-01-29 20:06:32 UTC
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Post by Matthew B. Tepper
Post by Rolf
Hello all,
Could someone tell me a bit more about the conductor Leo Borchardt?
Google tells me he has been shot at checkpoint Charlie in 1945, but
nothing more....
I read somewhere that he was supposed to have taken over the Berlin
Philharmonic while Furtwängler's denazification procedures were under way,
but that's about all I know. Borchard's death left the way open for a
certain apolitical Roumanian philosophy student to take over instead.
It did indeed. It's interesting to read why the BPO musicians didn't
let that student become Furtwangler's successor in 1954, isn't it? At
least one of the books about Karajan (perhaps Richard Osborne's)
mentions the graveside service for Furtwangler at which said
student/conductor said something like "oh well, he'd become deaf
anyway!" The BPO members who were present, stunned and grieving about
Furtwangler's death, are said to have decided then and there that
someone else would be their next conductor. Karajan.

Don Tait
George Murnu
2006-01-29 23:40:42 UTC
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Post by Matthew B. Tepper
Post by Rolf
Hello all,
Could someone tell me a bit more about the conductor Leo Borchardt?
Google tells me he has been shot at checkpoint Charlie in 1945, but
nothing more....
I read somewhere that he was supposed to have taken over the Berlin
Philharmonic while Furtwängler's denazification procedures were under way,
but that's about all I know. Borchard's death left the way open for a
certain apolitical Roumanian philosophy student to take over instead.
It did indeed. It's interesting to read why the BPO musicians didn't
let that student become Furtwangler's successor in 1954, isn't it? At
least one of the books about Karajan (perhaps Richard Osborne's)
mentions the graveside service for Furtwangler at which said
student/conductor said something like "oh well, he'd become deaf
anyway!" The BPO members who were present, stunned and grieving about
Furtwangler's death, are said to have decided then and there that
someone else would be their next conductor. Karajan.

Don Tait

This is nonetheless something that Celi denied all his life and he had no
less than Elisabeth Furtwangler on his side. What Celi however did was
having the guts to tell the BPO members that they play like a provincial
orchestra while HvK was flattering them. Of course, all of this is only
simplifying the story and the choice of successor was based on many more
factors which have been discussed here before.

Regards,

George
Dan Koren
2006-01-31 11:07:59 UTC
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Post by D***@aol.com
to
Post by Matthew B. Tepper
Post by Rolf
Hello all,
Could someone tell me a bit more about the conductor Leo Borchardt?
Google tells me he has been shot at checkpoint Charlie in 1945, but
nothing more....
I read somewhere that he was supposed to have taken over the Berlin
Philharmonic while Furtwängler's denazification procedures were under way,
but that's about all I know. Borchard's death left the way open for a
certain apolitical Roumanian philosophy student to take over instead.
It did indeed. It's interesting to read why the BPO musicians didn't
let that student become Furtwangler's successor in 1954, isn't it? At
least one of the books about Karajan (perhaps Richard Osborne's)
mentions the graveside service for Furtwangler at which said
student/conductor said something like "oh well, he'd become deaf
anyway!" The BPO members who were present, stunned and grieving about
Furtwangler's death, are said to have decided then and there that
someone else would be their next conductor. Karajan.
This is nonetheless something that Celi denied all his life and he had no
less than Elisabeth Furtwangler on his side. What Celi however did was
having the guts to tell the BPO members that they play like a provincial
orchestra while HvK was flattering them. Of course, all of this is only
simplifying the story and the choice of successor was based on many more
factors which have been discussed here before.
Not the least of which was pure, old style,
echt Deutsch racism. It is a matter of record
(though I do not have the exact source at the
tips of my fingers) that many BPO members
referred to Celi as the 'filthy Romanian'.

Nor did they forgive him for making them
perform Shostakovich's Stalingrad symphony
in 1946, did they?



dk
Paul Goldstein
2006-01-31 15:12:49 UTC
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Post by Dan Koren
Nor did they forgive him for making them
perform Shostakovich's Stalingrad symphony
in 1946, did they?
Some things only God can forgive.
Michael Schaffer
2006-01-31 20:01:56 UTC
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Post by Dan Koren
Post by D***@aol.com
to
Post by Matthew B. Tepper
Post by Rolf
Hello all,
Could someone tell me a bit more about the conductor Leo Borchardt?
Google tells me he has been shot at checkpoint Charlie in 1945, but
nothing more....
I read somewhere that he was supposed to have taken over the Berlin
Philharmonic while Furtwängler's denazification procedures were under way,
but that's about all I know. Borchard's death left the way open for a
certain apolitical Roumanian philosophy student to take over instead.
It did indeed. It's interesting to read why the BPO musicians didn't
let that student become Furtwangler's successor in 1954, isn't it? At
least one of the books about Karajan (perhaps Richard Osborne's)
mentions the graveside service for Furtwangler at which said
student/conductor said something like "oh well, he'd become deaf
anyway!" The BPO members who were present, stunned and grieving about
Furtwangler's death, are said to have decided then and there that
someone else would be their next conductor. Karajan.
This is nonetheless something that Celi denied all his life and he had no
less than Elisabeth Furtwangler on his side. What Celi however did was
having the guts to tell the BPO members that they play like a provincial
orchestra while HvK was flattering them. Of course, all of this is only
simplifying the story and the choice of successor was based on many more
factors which have been discussed here before.
Not the least of which was pure, old style,
echt Deutsch racism. It is a matter of record
(though I do not have the exact source at the
tips of my fingers) that many BPO members
referred to Celi as the 'filthy Romanian'.
Of course you don't have the "exact source" because it's nonsense. It
is pretty likely that some members in the climate back then were biased
towards him because he was Rumanian. But it is obvious that the
orchestra as a whole wouldn't have worked with him for a long time
after there was no more necessity to work with him (because other good
conductors were not available or banned from performing pending
denazification) if they had been racially or otherwise biased towards
him.
The reasons they chose Karajan were much more complex than something
Celibidache had allegedly said at Furtwängler's funeral service or
during rehearsal. They didn't choose Karajan OVER Celibidache either.
Celibidache and the orchestra had had problems for a while, not because
they were racist or because of a single incident in a rehearsal, but
because there were many incidences. It looks a lot like Celibidache's
early and sudden success had gone into his head. It also speaks for
himself that for many years later, he was unable to secure any real top
positions and build stable relationships with orchestras until he
finally found his late artistic home in Munich.
At the time Furtwängler died, he wasn't even on the board anymore. The
long and complicated story of Celibidache, Furtwängler, Karajan, and
the BP is chronicled in this well researched book by Klaus Lang
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/3726560165/qid=1138736701/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/103-4535364-5285418?s=books&v=glance&n=283155
Basically, the reason they chose Karajan as Furtwängler's successor
was that he was the best conductor available for the position at the
time, simple as that. Celibidache was without doubt an extraordinarily
talented musician, but he was also very unstable in more than one
regard. The long odyssey he would make in the next decades until he
finally found his zen guru thing and settled in Munich where he posed
as the enlightened master only confirmed what the orchestra members had
already figured out back then.
I found the concerts I heard with him and the MP highly interesting and
fascinating in some respects, but his music making was also rather
onesided. A lot about him was just posing. All conductors are posers to
a certain degree, that comes with the job. So was Karajan with his
highly calculated and groomed stage appearance. But that was also
typical for the times. It still is, but to a much lesser extent. If you
read reviews from, say, the 50s and 60s, it is extraordinary to what
extent the reviewers were often fixated on the persona and appearance
of the conductors. Sometimes the entire review deals with how the
conductos came across, what his gestures and facial expressions were
like, etc. But at the end of the day, Karajan had much more artistic
substance and didn't need to hold long guru lectures to convince.
Post by Dan Koren
Nor did they forgive him for making them
perform Shostakovich's Stalingrad symphony
in 1946, did they?
dk
Matthew B. Tepper
2006-01-31 20:36:03 UTC
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I found the concerts I heard with him [Celibidache] and the MP [Munich
Philharmonic] highly interesting and fascinating in some respects, but
his music making was also rather onesided. A lot about him was just
posing.

I saw their three concerts in the Los Angeles area in 1989, and I agree.
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page -- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/index.html
My main music page --- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
I ask you to judge me by the enemies I have made. ~ FDR (attrib.)
Michael Schaffer
2006-01-31 21:45:20 UTC
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Post by Michael Schaffer
I found the concerts I heard with him [Celibidache] and the MP [Munich
Philharmonic] highly interesting and fascinating in some respects, but
his music making was also rather onesided. A lot about him was just
posing.
I saw their three concerts in the Los Angeles area in 1989, and I agree.
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page -- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/index.html
My main music page --- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
I ask you to judge me by the enemies I have made. ~ FDR (attrib.)
What pieces did you hear?
Matthew B. Tepper
2006-02-01 05:02:34 UTC
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Post by Michael Schaffer
Post by Matthew B. Tepper
I found the concerts I heard with him [Celibidache] and the MP
[Munich Philharmonic] highly interesting and fascinating in some
respects, but his music making was also rather onesided. A lot about
him was just posing.
I saw their three concerts in the Los Angeles area in 1989, and I agree.
What pieces did you hear?
Bruckner 4th in one; another was about the closest they could have come to
a "pops" concert with "Don Juan," "Rapsodie Espagnole" and "Pictures" ...
and I'm afraid I've forgotten what the third one was.
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page -- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/index.html
My main music page --- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
I ask you to judge me by the enemies I have made. ~ FDR (attrib.)
Michael Schaffer
2006-01-31 20:03:31 UTC
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Post by Dan Koren
Post by D***@aol.com
to
Post by Matthew B. Tepper
Post by Rolf
Hello all,
Could someone tell me a bit more about the conductor Leo Borchardt?
Google tells me he has been shot at checkpoint Charlie in 1945, but
nothing more....
I read somewhere that he was supposed to have taken over the Berlin
Philharmonic while Furtwängler's denazification procedures were under way,
but that's about all I know. Borchard's death left the way open for a
certain apolitical Roumanian philosophy student to take over instead.
It did indeed. It's interesting to read why the BPO musicians didn't
let that student become Furtwangler's successor in 1954, isn't it? At
least one of the books about Karajan (perhaps Richard Osborne's)
mentions the graveside service for Furtwangler at which said
student/conductor said something like "oh well, he'd become deaf
anyway!" The BPO members who were present, stunned and grieving about
Furtwangler's death, are said to have decided then and there that
someone else would be their next conductor. Karajan.
This is nonetheless something that Celi denied all his life and he had no
less than Elisabeth Furtwangler on his side. What Celi however did was
having the guts to tell the BPO members that they play like a provincial
orchestra while HvK was flattering them. Of course, all of this is only
simplifying the story and the choice of successor was based on many more
factors which have been discussed here before.
Not the least of which was pure, old style,
echt Deutsch racism. It is a matter of record
(though I do not have the exact source at the
tips of my fingers) that many BPO members
referred to Celi as the 'filthy Romanian'.
Nor did they forgive him for making them
perform Shostakovich's Stalingrad symphony
in 1946, did they?
Stalingrad symphony?
Post by Dan Koren
dk
Matthew B. Tepper
2006-01-31 20:36:00 UTC
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"Michael Schaffer" <***@gmail.com> appears to have caused the following
letters to be typed in news:1138737810.958523.66880
Post by Michael Schaffer
Nor did they forgive him for making them perform Shostakovich's
Stalingrad symphony in 1946, did they?
Stalingrad symphony?
Stalin, Lenin, one o' them guys.
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page -- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/index.html
My main music page --- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
I ask you to judge me by the enemies I have made. ~ FDR (attrib.)
George Murnu
2006-02-01 05:23:39 UTC
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[snip]
Post by Dan Koren
Not the least of which was pure, old style,
echt Deutsch racism. It is a matter of record
(though I do not have the exact source at the
tips of my fingers) that many BPO members
referred to Celi as the 'filthy Romanian'.
This reminds me of a comment that a friend of Ioan Holender - the Intendant
of the Vienna State Opera - made to him: "if you were gay, it would have
been a complete package" (approximate translation from memory but the meat
is there); meaning that Holender is disliked for being Jew and for being
Romanian.

In fairness however, Holender himself is first to say that some things have
changed even in Vienna, although not as much as he wishes...

(yuk, I opened Pandora's box again...)

Regards,

George
Post by Dan Koren
Nor did they forgive him for making them
perform Shostakovich's Stalingrad symphony
in 1946, did they?
dk
Michael Schaffer
2006-02-01 19:06:55 UTC
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Post by George Murnu
[snip]
Post by Dan Koren
Not the least of which was pure, old style,
echt Deutsch racism. It is a matter of record
(though I do not have the exact source at the
tips of my fingers) that many BPO members
referred to Celi as the 'filthy Romanian'.
This reminds me of a comment that a friend of Ioan Holender - the Intendant
of the Vienna State Opera - made to him: "if you were gay, it would have
been a complete package" (approximate translation from memory but the meat
is there); meaning that Holender is disliked for being Jew and for being
Romanian.
In fairness however, Holender himself is first to say that some things have
changed even in Vienna, although not as much as he wishes...
Apparently enough though for him to become Indendant at the Staatsoper,
the country's most important cultural institution. So they can't be
quite as biased. But it just sounds better to say they are all racists
in Vienna, doesn't it?
Post by George Murnu
(yuk, I opened Pandora's box again...)
Regards,
George
Post by Dan Koren
Nor did they forgive him for making them
perform Shostakovich's Stalingrad symphony
in 1946, did they?
dk
George Murnu
2006-02-02 03:50:25 UTC
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[snip]
Post by Michael Schaffer
Post by George Murnu
In fairness however, Holender himself is first to say that some things have
changed even in Vienna, although not as much as he wishes...
Apparently enough though for him to become Indendant at the Staatsoper,
the country's most important cultural institution. So they can't be
quite as biased. But it just sounds better to say they are all racists
in Vienna, doesn't it?
When did Holender and / or myself say that they are ALL biased in Vienna?
Nonetheless, my recent visit to Vienna (November last year, about which I
posted) confirmed that bias still exists in Vienna.

But to have an idea of what Holender got through until he became director,
why don't you read his biography, "Der Lebensweg des Wiener
Staatsoperndirektors. Von Temesvar nach Wien":
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/3205993845/ref=sr_11_1/104-6165529-4188750?%5Fencoding=UTF8.
I will summarize a few things for you from the Romanian edition. According
to Mr. Holender, the only difference between the German and the Romanian
language edition is that in the Romanian edition there is more emphasis on
Romanian artists while the German edition gives more details about
Holender's life in Romania and about Romania itself. Otherwise, the two
editions are identical.

In 1988, while eating lunch at his mother's house with the administrators of
the Austrian Federal Theaters, Eberhard Waechter is informally offered the
directorship of the State Opera. He immediatelly calls Ioan Holender and
says: "They offered me the directorship, I will accept it only if you will
be secretary, I only have one shilling so say fast: yes or no". Holender
doesn't remember saying "yes"...

Next step, a meeting / interview with Chancelor Franz Vranitzky and the
Culture Minister, Hilde Hawlicek, is arranged. Almost the whole meeting is
centered on Holender, Waechter beeing the "known quantity" (fair enough),
but at the end Mr. Vranitzky gives the inofrmal blessing which leads to the
official confirmation.

The calvar starts now: a vitirolic press campaign against the PERSON of Ioan
Holender with titles such as "A Romanian shipwreck survivor at the helm of
the State Opera" ("Ein hergelaufener Rumäne an der Leitung der Wiener
Staatsoper"); remember, this is late 1980s Austria, not 1930s. While
attacking the leadership of the State Opera is a fair game, the intensity
and the negativity of the attacks for an administration that did not even
started its work was something that never happened before. Ioan Holender
did in fact had to even go to court to sue for attacks at his person and he
won the process. Not once he wanted to renounce, and only Waechter's
friendship and encouragament made him continue; in fairness, chancelor
Vranitzky supported him as well, but he of course should stand behind his
choice and to his credit did.

Waechter and Holender finally took the helm of the House on the Ring in
1991, but Waechter unexpectedly died in March 1992, not even beeing able to
complete one full season. Holender swiftly offers his resignation but is
asked to continue; he later learned that the Vienna Philharmonic lobbied for
him to stay, so he earned their trust in little time.

So you be the judge if Holender experienced bias or no.
Post by Michael Schaffer
Post by George Murnu
(yuk, I opened Pandora's box again...)
Regards,
George
[snip]
Michael Schaffer
2006-02-02 04:00:31 UTC
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Post by George Murnu
[snip]
Post by Michael Schaffer
Post by George Murnu
In fairness however, Holender himself is first to say that some things
have
Post by Michael Schaffer
Post by George Murnu
changed even in Vienna, although not as much as he wishes...
Apparently enough though for him to become Indendant at the Staatsoper,
the country's most important cultural institution. So they can't be
quite as biased. But it just sounds better to say they are all racists
in Vienna, doesn't it?
When did Holender and / or myself say that they are ALL biased in Vienna?
Nonetheless, my recent visit to Vienna (November last year, about which I
posted) confirmed that bias still exists in Vienna.
But to have an idea of what Holender got through until he became director,
why don't you read his biography, "Der Lebensweg des Wiener
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/3205993845/ref=sr_11_1/104-6165529-4188750?%5Fencoding=UTF8.
I will summarize a few things for you from the Romanian edition. According
to Mr. Holender, the only difference between the German and the Romanian
language edition is that in the Romanian edition there is more emphasis on
Romanian artists while the German edition gives more details about
Holender's life in Romania and about Romania itself. Otherwise, the two
editions are identical.
In 1988, while eating lunch at his mother's house with the administrators of
the Austrian Federal Theaters, Eberhard Waechter is informally offered the
directorship of the State Opera. He immediatelly calls Ioan Holender and
says: "They offered me the directorship, I will accept it only if you will
be secretary, I only have one shilling so say fast: yes or no". Holender
doesn't remember saying "yes"...
Next step, a meeting / interview with Chancelor Franz Vranitzky and the
Culture Minister, Hilde Hawlicek, is arranged. Almost the whole meeting is
centered on Holender, Waechter beeing the "known quantity" (fair enough),
but at the end Mr. Vranitzky gives the inofrmal blessing which leads to the
official confirmation.
The calvar starts now: a vitirolic press campaign against the PERSON of Ioan
Holender with titles such as "A Romanian shipwreck survivor at the helm of
the State Opera" ("Ein hergelaufener Rumäne an der Leitung der Wiener
Staatsoper"); remember, this is late 1980s Austria, not 1930s. While
attacking the leadership of the State Opera is a fair game, the intensity
and the negativity of the attacks for an administration that did not even
started its work was something that never happened before. Ioan Holender
did in fact had to even go to court to sue for attacks at his person and he
won the process. Not once he wanted to renounce, and only Waechter's
friendship and encouragament made him continue; in fairness, chancelor
Vranitzky supported him as well, but he of course should stand behind his
choice and to his credit did.
Waechter and Holender finally took the helm of the House on the Ring in
1991, but Waechter unexpectedly died in March 1992, not even beeing able to
complete one full season. Holender swiftly offers his resignation but is
asked to continue; he later learned that the Vienna Philharmonic lobbied for
him to stay, so he earned their trust in little time.
I thought they were all (or most of them) racists?
Post by George Murnu
So you be the judge if Holender experienced bias or no.
Everyone does, especially in Vienna, a hotbed of intrigues and
backstabbing. It has always been like that. Doesn't have much to do
with whether they are foreigners, Jews, or whatever. Check Karajan's
biography. The (fairly short) time he had at the Staatsoper wasn't
exactly unbumpy either.
Post by George Murnu
Post by Michael Schaffer
Post by George Murnu
(yuk, I opened Pandora's box again...)
Regards,
George
[snip]
George Murnu
2006-02-03 03:41:35 UTC
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[snip]
Post by Michael Schaffer
Post by George Murnu
Holender swiftly offers his resignation but is
asked to continue; he later learned that the Vienna Philharmonic lobbied for
him to stay, so he earned their trust in little time.
I thought they were all (or most of them) racists?
When did I say that?
Post by Michael Schaffer
So you be the judge if Holender experienced bias or no.
Everyone does, especially in Vienna, a hotbed of intrigues and
backstabbing. It has always been like that. Doesn't have much to do
with whether they are foreigners, Jews, or whatever. Check Karajan's
biography. The (fairly short) time he had at the Staatsoper wasn't
exactly unbumpy either.
Yes, Karajan experienced backstabbing in Vienna and so did Lorin Maazel and
so did Rudolf Gamsjäger (formerly successful Intendant of the Musikverein)
and so did many others. Yet, they were at least allowed to start and do
their work at the Opera; Holender was still 2 years away from taking the
post and was denigrated. The intensity of these attacks was great even by
Viennese standards. And note that Holender was not even going to be
director at the time of the attacks: he was going to be secretary, an
important post for sure, but the future director, the Austrian Waechter, was
sparred of any attacks. Sorry, this is bias, and it does have to do with
the foreign origin: remember "Ein hergelaufener Rumäne..."
Matthew B. Tepper
2006-02-02 04:07:46 UTC
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Post by George Murnu
When did Holender and / or myself say that they are ALL biased in
Vienna? Nonetheless, my recent visit to Vienna (November last year,
about which I posted) confirmed that bias still exists in Vienna.
But to have an idea of what Holender got through until he became
director, why don't you read his biography, "Der Lebensweg des Wiener
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/3205993845/ref=sr_11_1/104-6165529-41887
50?%5Fencoding=UTF8. I will summarize a few things for you from the
Romanian edition. According to Mr. Holender, the only difference
between the German and the Romanian language edition is that in the
Romanian edition there is more emphasis on Romanian artists while the
German edition gives more details about Holender's life in Romania and
about Romania itself. Otherwise, the two editions are identical.
In 1988, while eating lunch at his mother's house with the
administrators of the Austrian Federal Theaters, Eberhard Waechter is
informally offered the directorship of the State Opera. He immediatelly
calls Ioan Holender and says: "They offered me the directorship, I will
accept it only if you will be secretary, I only have one shilling so say
fast: yes or no". Holender doesn't remember saying "yes"...
Next step, a meeting / interview with Chancelor Franz Vranitzky and the
Culture Minister, Hilde Hawlicek, is arranged. Almost the whole meeting
is centered on Holender, Waechter beeing the "known quantity" (fair
enough), but at the end Mr. Vranitzky gives the inofrmal blessing which
leads to the official confirmation.
The calvar starts now: a vitirolic press campaign against the PERSON of
Ioan Holender with titles such as "A Romanian shipwreck survivor at the
helm of the State Opera" ("Ein hergelaufener Rumäne an der Leitung der
Wiener Staatsoper"); remember, this is late 1980s Austria, not 1930s.
While attacking the leadership of the State Opera is a fair game, the
intensity and the negativity of the attacks for an administration that
did not even started its work was something that never happened before.
Ioan Holender did in fact had to even go to court to sue for attacks at
his person and he won the process. Not once he wanted to renounce, and
only Waechter's friendship and encouragament made him continue; in
fairness, chancelor Vranitzky supported him as well, but he of course
should stand behind his choice and to his credit did.
Waechter and Holender finally took the helm of the House on the Ring in
1991, but Waechter unexpectedly died in March 1992, not even beeing able
to complete one full season. Holender swiftly offers his resignation
but is asked to continue; he later learned that the Vienna Philharmonic
lobbied for him to stay, so he earned their trust in little time.
So you be the judge if Holender experienced bias or no.
Someone in the opera newsgroup once relayed this delicious story:

The General Manager of the Vienna State Opera, Holender, was approached by
the wife of a wealthy sponsor, and asked why he had not engaged [a certain
well-known and overparted pop singer] to sing in La Bohème. His reply was,
"Madam, we have not been able to overcome two barriers - he can't see us,
and we can't hear him".
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page -- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/index.html
My main music page --- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
I ask you to judge me by the enemies I have made. ~ FDR (attrib.)
SG
2006-02-01 19:26:06 UTC
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Post by George Murnu
Post by Dan Koren
Not the least of which was pure, old style,
echt Deutsch racism. It is a matter of record
(though I do not have the exact source at the
tips of my fingers) that many BPO members
referred to Celi as the 'filthy Romanian'.
This reminds me of a comment that a friend of Ioan Holender - the Intendant
of the Vienna State Opera - made to him: "if you were gay, it would have
been a complete package" (approximate translation from memory but the meat
is there); meaning that Holender is disliked for being Jew and for being
Romanian.
In fairness however, Holender himself is first to say that some things have
changed even in Vienna, although not as much as he wishes...
(yuk, I opened Pandora's box again...)
Well, George, we should be at least grateful for the obvious
improvements: half of the members of Vienna Philharmonic are not
members of the Nazi Party anymore. Progress has been made.

regards,
SG
Peter Lemken
2006-02-01 21:12:16 UTC
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Post by SG
Post by George Murnu
Post by Dan Koren
Not the least of which was pure, old style,
echt Deutsch racism. It is a matter of record
(though I do not have the exact source at the
tips of my fingers) that many BPO members
referred to Celi as the 'filthy Romanian'.
This reminds me of a comment that a friend of Ioan Holender - the Intendant
of the Vienna State Opera - made to him: "if you were gay, it would have
been a complete package" (approximate translation from memory but the meat
is there); meaning that Holender is disliked for being Jew and for being
Romanian.
In fairness however, Holender himself is first to say that some things have
changed even in Vienna, although not as much as he wishes...
(yuk, I opened Pandora's box again...)
Well, George, we should be at least grateful for the obvious
improvements: half of the members of Vienna Philharmonic are not
members of the Nazi Party anymore. Progress has been made.
To show what kind of twisted, idiotic "logic" you always mage to bring up:
100% of the Israel Philharmonic are not and have not been member of the Nazi
party and yet the Vienna and Berlin Philharmonic are probably better as an
orchestra, ba whatever standards you may want to apply here.

I there suggest that every IPO member joins the Noeonazis, purely in the
interest of musical progress, of course.

Jesus.

Peter Lemken
Berlin
--
Paul Lincke ist dem Zille sein Milhaud.

(Harry Rowohlt)
Michael Schaffer
2006-02-01 21:28:48 UTC
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Post by Peter Lemken
Post by SG
Post by George Murnu
Post by Dan Koren
Not the least of which was pure, old style,
echt Deutsch racism. It is a matter of record
(though I do not have the exact source at the
tips of my fingers) that many BPO members
referred to Celi as the 'filthy Romanian'.
This reminds me of a comment that a friend of Ioan Holender - the Intendant
of the Vienna State Opera - made to him: "if you were gay, it would have
been a complete package" (approximate translation from memory but the meat
is there); meaning that Holender is disliked for being Jew and for being
Romanian.
In fairness however, Holender himself is first to say that some things have
changed even in Vienna, although not as much as he wishes...
(yuk, I opened Pandora's box again...)
Well, George, we should be at least grateful for the obvious
improvements: half of the members of Vienna Philharmonic are not
members of the Nazi Party anymore. Progress has been made.
100% of the Israel Philharmonic are not and have not been member of the Nazi
party and yet the Vienna and Berlin Philharmonic are probably better as an
orchestra, ba whatever standards you may want to apply here.
I there suggest that every IPO member joins the Noeonazis, purely in the
interest of musical progress, of course.
They don't really have to; they already live in a place where
discrimination and violence against certain ethnic groups are widely
practiced by the state.

Progress has not been made there.

In fact, it has gone in the opposite direction during the past decades.
Post by Peter Lemken
Jesus.
Peter Lemken
Berlin
--
Paul Lincke ist dem Zille sein Milhaud.
(Harry Rowohlt)
Matthew B. Tepper
2006-02-02 02:42:32 UTC
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Post by Michael Schaffer
Post by Peter Lemken
Post by SG
Post by George Murnu
Post by Dan Koren
Not the least of which was pure, old style,
echt Deutsch racism. It is a matter of record
(though I do not have the exact source at the
tips of my fingers) that many BPO members
referred to Celi as the 'filthy Romanian'.
This reminds me of a comment that a friend of Ioan Holender - the
Intendant of the Vienna State Opera - made to him: "if you were
gay, it would have been a complete package" (approximate
translation from memory but the meat is there); meaning that
Holender is disliked for being Jew and for being Romanian.
In fairness however, Holender himself is first to say that some
things have changed even in Vienna, although not as much as he
wishes...
(yuk, I opened Pandora's box again...)
Well, George, we should be at least grateful for the obvious
improvements: half of the members of Vienna Philharmonic are not
members of the Nazi Party anymore. Progress has been made.
To show what kind of twisted, idiotic "logic" you always mage to bring
up: 100% of the Israel Philharmonic are not and have not been member of
the Nazi party and yet the Vienna and Berlin Philharmonic are probably
better as an orchestra, ba whatever standards you may want to apply
here.
I there suggest that every IPO member joins the Noeonazis, purely in
the interest of musical progress, of course.
They don't really have to; they already live in a place where
discrimination and violence against certain ethnic groups are widely
practiced by the state.
PLONK
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page -- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/index.html
My main music page --- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
I ask you to judge me by the enemies I have made. ~ FDR (attrib.)
SG
2006-02-01 22:36:10 UTC
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Post by Peter Lemken
Post by SG
Well, George, we should be at least grateful for the obvious
improvements: half of the members of Vienna Philharmonic are not
members of the Nazi Party anymore. Progress has been made.
Are you talking about the "logic" of your incessant attacks on Joyce
Hatto and anybody associated to her - did you apologize yet for your
unfounded attack on a Holocaust survivor whom you insinuated without
proof would be lying?
Post by Peter Lemken
100% of the Israel Philharmonic are not and have not been member of the Nazi
party and yet the Vienna and Berlin Philharmonic are probably better as an
orchestra, ba whatever standards you may want to apply here.
Speaking of "logic":

1) Where did I claim IPO would be a better orchestra than VPO or BPO?

2) Where did I claim that the wrong (or horrible) moral choices of the
members of an orchestra would be necessarily reflected in the musical
quality of the orchestra?

"Logic" indeed.

regards,
SG
Peter Lemken
2006-02-01 23:29:49 UTC
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Post by SG
Post by Peter Lemken
Post by SG
Well, George, we should be at least grateful for the obvious
improvements: half of the members of Vienna Philharmonic are not
members of the Nazi Party anymore. Progress has been made.
Are you talking about the "logic" of your incessant attacks on Joyce
Hatto and anybody associated to her
Please do show me one single sentence or/and article, in which I attacked
Mrs. Hatto. MSG-ID suffices.
Post by SG
- did you apologize yet for your
unfounded attack on a Holocaust survivor whom you insinuated without
proof would be lying?
If you please forward any address of a person that I can apologize to, I'll
be happy to. If you can't do that, an address of his grave will suffice and
I will most humbly lay down a most monumental bouqet on it and say a silent,
apologetic prayer.

Until then you will have to live with the fact that I take Mr. Köhler's
biography with about a ton of salt.
Post by SG
Post by Peter Lemken
100% of the Israel Philharmonic are not and have not been member of the Nazi
party and yet the Vienna and Berlin Philharmonic are probably better as an
orchestra, ba whatever standards you may want to apply here.
1) Where did I claim IPO would be a better orchestra than VPO or BPO?
Nowhere.
Post by SG
2) Where did I claim that the wrong (or horrible) moral choices of the
members of an orchestra would be necessarily reflected in the musical
quality of the orchestra?
"Logic" indeed.
Absolutely.

Take some English lessons.

Peter Lemken
Berlin
--
Paul Lincke ist dem Zille sein Milhaud.

(Harry Rowohlt)
SG
2006-02-02 00:56:44 UTC
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Post by Peter Lemken
Post by SG
- did you apologize yet for your
unfounded attack on a Holocaust survivor whom you insinuated without
proof would be lying?
If you please forward any address of a person that I can apologize to, I'll
be happy to. If you can't do that, an address of his grave will suffice and
I will most humbly lay down a most monumental bouqet on it and say a silent,
apologetic prayer.
The subject of your sarcasm says it all. No comment on this one.
Post by Peter Lemken
Post by SG
Post by Peter Lemken
100% of the Israel Philharmonic are not and have not been member of the Nazi
party and yet the Vienna and Berlin Philharmonic are probably better as an
orchestra, ba whatever standards you may want to apply here.
1) Where did I claim IPO would be a better orchestra than VPO or BPO?
Nowhere.
Post by SG
2) Where did I claim that the wrong (or horrible) moral choices of the
members of an orchestra would be necessarily reflected in the musical
quality of the orchestra?
"Logic" indeed.
Take some English lessons.
From TD, as you seem to have done? No, thanks.
regards,
SG
Matthew B. Tepper
2006-02-02 02:42:41 UTC
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Post by Peter Lemken
- did you apologize yet for your unfounded attack on a Holocaust
survivor whom you insinuated without proof would be lying?
If you please forward any address of a person that I can apologize to,
I'll be happy to. If you can't do that, an address of his grave will
suffice and I will most humbly lay down a most monumental bouqet on it
and say a silent, apologetic prayer.
How many are you willing to write? I shan't give you home addresses, but
they will all be c/o the Museum of Tolerance in Los Angeles.
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page -- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/index.html
My main music page --- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
I ask you to judge me by the enemies I have made. ~ FDR (attrib.)
SG
2006-02-01 19:20:23 UTC
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Post by Dan Koren
Post by D***@aol.com
Post by Matthew B. Tepper
I read somewhere that he was supposed to have taken over the Berlin
Philharmonic while Furtwängler's denazification procedures were under way,
but that's about all I know. Borchard's death left the way open for a
certain apolitical Roumanian philosophy student to take over instead.
Sergiu Celibidache was, no question about that, an extremely brilliant
young musician. However, it should be acknowledged that a sad type of
luck played a role in that chance he's gotten - what with most
illustrious conductors of the time having been either killed, exiled,
marginalized und so weiter.
Post by Dan Koren
Post by D***@aol.com
It did indeed. It's interesting to read why the BPO musicians didn't
let that student become Furtwangler's successor in 1954, isn't it? At
least one of the books about Karajan (perhaps Richard Osborne's)
mentions the graveside service for Furtwangler at which said
student/conductor said something like "oh well, he'd become deaf
anyway!" The BPO members who were present, stunned and grieving about
Furtwangler's death, are said to have decided then and there that
someone else would be their next conductor. Karajan.
This is nonetheless something that Celi denied all his life and he had no
less than Elisabeth Furtwangler on his side. What Celi however did was
having the guts to tell the BPO members that they play like a provincial
orchestra while HvK was flattering them. Of course, all of this is only
simplifying the story and the choice of successor was based on many more
factors which have been discussed here before.
Not to contradict, just to add to what you're saying, it is at least
possible, if not probable, that the young Celibidache found inherent
comparisons with Furtwaengler overwhelming (who wouldn't have?) and
chose rebellious defiance as a way of dealing with the pressure. I am
conjecturing here.
Post by Dan Koren
Not the least of which was pure, old style,
echt Deutsch racism. It is a matter of record
(though I do not have the exact source at the
tips of my fingers) that many BPO members
referred to Celi as the 'filthy Romanian'.
I am somehow reminded by Hercule Poirot's protestations: "no, Madame,
je vous'en prie, I am not a filthy French, I am a filthy *Belge* !" Or,
in some movie the name I forget, when a certain lady is being called a
"scrupleless, dirty, godless, mean, dastardly fat bitch", she answers:
"fat? FAT?"

Oh, well.

regards,
SG
Matthew B. Tepper
2006-02-01 20:39:39 UTC
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Post by SG
I am somehow reminded by Hercule Poirot's protestations: "no, Madame,
je vous'en prie, I am not a filthy French, I am a filthy *Belge* !" Or,
in some movie the name I forget, when a certain lady is being called a
"fat? FAT?"
Oh, well.
Princess Leia: Why, you stuck up, half-witted, scruffy-looking nerf-herder!

Han Solo: Who's scruffy-looking?
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page -- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/index.html
My main music page --- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
I ask you to judge me by the enemies I have made. ~ FDR (attrib.)
D***@aol.com
2006-01-29 19:58:08 UTC
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Post by Rolf
Hello all,
Could someone tell me a bit more about the conductor Leo Borchardt?
Google tells me he has been shot at checkpoint Charlie in 1945, but
nothing more....
Rolf
http://homepages.ipact.nl/~otterhouse
Borchard (there was no "t" on the end) was born in Moscow in 1899.
John L. Holmes writes in "Conductors on Record" that Borchard "was
active as a conductor in Germany, where he was an assistant to Bruno
Walter and Klemperer. After the German collapse at the end of World War
II he assembled the members of the Berlin Philharmonic Orchestra and
directed their first [postwar] concert, but was unfortunately killed by
a soldier of the occupying forces."

I've read elsewhere that he was shot because he tried to drive
through a checkpoint in Berlin without stopping as required.

Borchard was put in charge of the BPO because Furtwangler was still
in Switzerland when Germany surrendered and the Allies wouldn't permit
him to resume conducting until the charges of possible Nazi
collaboration were resolved, which of course they were -- he was
cleared.

Borchard made a few 78s with the BPO, including a Nutcracker Suite
for Ultraphon and Suppe's Banditenstreiche overture, Wotan's Farewell
with Hans Reinmar, and Jean Francaix's Concertino with the composer as
pianist for Telefunken. The Francaix is the best known because Capitol
released it on 78, 45, and LP in the USA.

Don Tait
Michael Schaffer
2006-01-31 19:29:30 UTC
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Post by D***@aol.com
Post by Rolf
Hello all,
Could someone tell me a bit more about the conductor Leo Borchardt?
Google tells me he has been shot at checkpoint Charlie in 1945, but
nothing more....
Rolf
http://homepages.ipact.nl/~otterhouse
Borchard (there was no "t" on the end) was born in Moscow in 1899.
John L. Holmes writes in "Conductors on Record" that Borchard "was
active as a conductor in Germany, where he was an assistant to Bruno
Walter and Klemperer. After the German collapse at the end of World War
II he assembled the members of the Berlin Philharmonic Orchestra and
directed their first [postwar] concert, but was unfortunately killed by
a soldier of the occupying forces."
I've read elsewhere that he was shot because he tried to drive
through a checkpoint in Berlin without stopping as required.
Apparently his driver didn't hear the command to stop so the US soldier
on duty fired a "warning shot" - right in Borchards head.
Post by D***@aol.com
Borchard was put in charge of the BPO because Furtwangler was still
in Switzerland when Germany surrendered and the Allies wouldn't permit
him to resume conducting until the charges of possible Nazi
collaboration were resolved, which of course they were -- he was
cleared.
Borchard made a few 78s with the BPO, including a Nutcracker Suite
for Ultraphon and Suppe's Banditenstreiche overture, Wotan's Farewell
with Hans Reinmar, and Jean Francaix's Concertino with the composer as
pianist for Telefunken. The Francaix is the best known because Capitol
released it on 78, 45, and LP in the USA.
Don Tait
t***@gmail.com
2017-07-15 11:48:07 UTC
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The driver of the car in which Borchardt died was his friend , my father T.R.M Creighton ( British Control Commission 1945 ) ... I am trying to trace records of the incident- as it seems a copy still exists ; and what the US authorities did about it ! My dad didn't talk about it during his lifetime , and I am curious to find a copy of his witness statement !
Michael Schaffer
2006-01-31 22:13:16 UTC
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Post by D***@aol.com
Post by Rolf
Hello all,
Could someone tell me a bit more about the conductor Leo Borchardt?
Google tells me he has been shot at checkpoint Charlie in 1945, but
nothing more....
Rolf
http://homepages.ipact.nl/~otterhouse
Borchard (there was no "t" on the end) was born in Moscow in 1899.
John L. Holmes writes in "Conductors on Record" that Borchard "was
active as a conductor in Germany, where he was an assistant to Bruno
Walter and Klemperer. After the German collapse at the end of World War
II he assembled the members of the Berlin Philharmonic Orchestra and
directed their first [postwar] concert, but was unfortunately killed by
a soldier of the occupying forces."
I've read elsewhere that he was shot because he tried to drive
through a checkpoint in Berlin without stopping as required.
Borchard was put in charge of the BPO because Furtwangler was still
in Switzerland when Germany surrendered and the Allies wouldn't permit
him to resume conducting until the charges of possible Nazi
collaboration were resolved, which of course they were -- he was
cleared.
Borchard made a few 78s with the BPO, including a Nutcracker Suite
for Ultraphon and Suppe's Banditenstreiche overture, Wotan's Farewell
with Hans Reinmar, and Jean Francaix's Concertino with the composer as
pianist for Telefunken. The Francaix is the best known because Capitol
released it on 78, 45, and LP in the USA.
Don Tait
It may be interesting to know that Borchard had his debut with the BP
in 1933, the year the NSDAP came into power, and conducted them quite
often until he was banned from conducting by the regime because of
"political unreliability". He was part of a resistance group code-named
"Onkel Emil". I do not know why he, who was widely travelled and spoke
several languages in addition to (obviously) German and his native
Russian, did not emigrate. It might have been easier for him than for
many others to start fresh somewhere else. Maybe he didn't want to,
again - he already had to leave his home country after the Red
revolution. What a tragic life: first he is exiled from his home
country, then he gets banned by the Nazis, finally after the war his
time comes when he gets appointed to conduct the BP concerts - then he
gets shot by an American soldier.
Rolf
2006-02-01 08:05:33 UTC
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Thanks for the info, michael and don!

Rolf
Peter Lemken
2006-02-02 09:00:55 UTC
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Post by Matthew B. Tepper
Post by Peter Lemken
- did you apologize yet for your unfounded attack on a Holocaust
survivor whom you insinuated without proof would be lying?
If you please forward any address of a person that I can apologize to,
I'll be happy to. If you can't do that, an address of his grave will
suffice and I will most humbly lay down a most monumental bouqet on it
and say a silent, apologetic prayer.
How many are you willing to write?
As many as desired and necessary. And appropriate.
Post by Matthew B. Tepper
I shan't give you home addresses, but
they will all be c/o the Museum of Tolerance in Los Angeles.
I will do so, honestly, but before that I really would like to know whether
Mr. Köhler actually existed. No, the "biography" with "information
communicated to the author" simply isn't good enough.


Peter Lemken
Berlin
--
Paul Lincke ist dem Zille sein Milhaud.

(Harry Rowohlt)
Matthew B. Tepper
2006-02-02 15:33:42 UTC
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Post by Peter Lemken
Post by Matthew B. Tepper
Post by Peter Lemken
- did you apologize yet for your unfounded attack on a Holocaust
survivor whom you insinuated without proof would be lying?
If you please forward any address of a person that I can apologize to,
I'll be happy to. If you can't do that, an address of his grave will
suffice and I will most humbly lay down a most monumental bouqet on it
and say a silent, apologetic prayer.
How many are you willing to write?
As many as desired and necessary. And appropriate.
Post by Matthew B. Tepper
I shan't give you home addresses, but
they will all be c/o the Museum of Tolerance in Los Angeles.
I will do so, honestly, but before that I really would like to know
whether Mr. Köhler actually existed. No, the "biography" with
"information communicated to the author" simply isn't good enough.
By my reference to the Museum of Tolerance, I mean the survivors who
volunteer their time (i.e. receive no compensation save for carfare) to
speak to patrons about their experiences in the Holocaust.

Had you considered that "Köhler" is a pseudonym for some reason?
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page -- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/index.html
My main music page --- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
I ask you to judge me by the enemies I have made. ~ FDR (attrib.)
Michael Schaffer
2006-02-02 21:26:40 UTC
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Post by Matthew B. Tepper
Post by Peter Lemken
Post by Matthew B. Tepper
Post by Peter Lemken
- did you apologize yet for your unfounded attack on a Holocaust
survivor whom you insinuated without proof would be lying?
If you please forward any address of a person that I can apologize to,
I'll be happy to. If you can't do that, an address of his grave will
suffice and I will most humbly lay down a most monumental bouqet on it
and say a silent, apologetic prayer.
How many are you willing to write?
As many as desired and necessary. And appropriate.
Post by Matthew B. Tepper
I shan't give you home addresses, but
they will all be c/o the Museum of Tolerance in Los Angeles.
I will do so, honestly, but before that I really would like to know
whether Mr. Köhler actually existed. No, the "biography" with
"information communicated to the author" simply isn't good enough.
By my reference to the Museum of Tolerance, I mean the survivors who
volunteer their time (i.e. receive no compensation save for carfare) to
speak to patrons about their experiences in the Holocaust.
Had you considered that "Köhler" is a pseudonym for some reason?
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page -- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/index.html
My main music page --- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
I ask you to judge me by the enemies I have made. ~ FDR (attrib.)
Do they also have older Japanese Americans who speak about what it was
like to be interned in their country for being of Japanese descendance?
Do they have older black people who speak about what it was like to
have to sit in the back of the bus, or to have to use separate
entrances from the good white people, or to have to leave town at
sundown? Actually, those wouldn't have to be really old people, a lot
of these things are fairly recent. And there are still communities
which don't allow black people to settle there.
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