Discussion:
The Karajan Sound
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m***@gmail.com
2013-08-20 08:07:47 UTC
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On Sunday, August 25, 2002 4:11:57 AM UTC-10, Markesten wrote:
> I heard him with the BPO and the Vienna Phil at Carnegie Hall. I would agree
> that his "sound" was never adequately captured on disc. While the recordings
> often lead to comments like "shrill," "homogenous" and "mushy," his live
> performances were anything but that. In the concert hall, one was struck by the
> fact that he achieved an incredibly full sound without ever lapsing into the
> banal. There was no "highlighting" of inner voices, so to speak, because
> everything was wonderfully in balance so inner voices were heard without
> needing to be underlined.
>
> The times I heard him in concert, the interpretation was wonderful even if the
> brass sections of these respected fine orchestras served up their share of
> clams (something one would almost never expect or accept from American
> players). In addition, the wind players weren't submerged in a wall of string
> sound as can often happen on disc.
>
> That said, the EMI recordings probably do fuller justice to HvK's sound
> concept. I'd recommend the Pelleas et Melisande...

Karajan's PELLEAS... is on Youtube.
Frank Berger
2013-08-20 12:30:38 UTC
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On 8/20/2013 4:07 AM, ***@gmail.com wrote:
> On Sunday, August 25, 2002 4:11:57 AM UTC-10, Markesten wrote:
>> I heard him with the BPO and the Vienna Phil at Carnegie Hall. I would agree
>> that his "sound" was never adequately captured on disc. While the recordings
>> often lead to comments like "shrill," "homogenous" and "mushy," his live
>> performances were anything but that. In the concert hall, one was struck by the
>> fact that he achieved an incredibly full sound without ever lapsing into the
>> banal. There was no "highlighting" of inner voices, so to speak, because
>> everything was wonderfully in balance so inner voices were heard without
>> needing to be underlined.
>>
>> The times I heard him in concert, the interpretation was wonderful even if the
>> brass sections of these respected fine orchestras served up their share of
>> clams (something one would almost never expect or accept from American
>> players). In addition, the wind players weren't submerged in a wall of string
>> sound as can often happen on disc.
>>
>> That said, the EMI recordings probably do fuller justice to HvK's sound
>> concept. I'd recommend the Pelleas et Melisande...
>
> Karajan's PELLEAS... is on Youtube.
>

This time the post you responded to was from 2002. While, there's no
law against it, do you really think it's a good idea to respond to
long-dead threads? In view of the comments already made here? Why not
start paying attention to the dates?
Frank Berger
2013-08-25 02:45:51 UTC
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On 8/24/2013 6:38 PM, Jim wrote:
> In article <***@supernews.com>,
> ***@gmail.com says...
>>
>> On 8/20/2013 4:07 AM, ***@gmail.com wrote:
>>> On Sunday, August 25, 2002 4:11:57 AM UTC-10, Markesten wrote:
>>>> I heard him with the BPO and the Vienna Phil at Carnegie Hall. I would agree
>>>> that his "sound" was never adequately captured on disc. While the recordings
>>>> often lead to comments like "shrill," "homogenous" and "mushy," his live
>>>> performances were anything but that. In the concert hall, one was struck by the
>>>> fact that he achieved an incredibly full sound without ever lapsing into the
>>>> banal. There was no "highlighting" of inner voices, so to speak, because
>>>> everything was wonderfully in balance so inner voices were heard without
>>>> needing to be underlined.
>>>>
>>>> The times I heard him in concert, the interpretation was wonderful even if the
>>>> brass sections of these respected fine orchestras served up their share of
>>>> clams (something one would almost never expect or accept from American
>>>> players). In addition, the wind players weren't submerged in a wall of string
>>>> sound as can often happen on disc.
>>>>
>>>> That said, the EMI recordings probably do fuller justice to HvK's sound
>>>> concept. I'd recommend the Pelleas et Melisande...
>>>
>>> Karajan's PELLEAS... is on Youtube.
>>>
>>
>> This time the post you responded to was from 2002. While, there's no
>> law against it, do you really think it's a good idea to respond to
>> long-dead threads? In view of the comments already made here? Why not
>> start paying attention to the dates?
>
> He's not responding to the previous post, rather just letting us know an
> HvK Pelleas is available on YouTube.
>

By responding to an old post, like I said. He could as easily have
created a new post.
Gerard
2013-08-25 09:47:21 UTC
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"Frank Berger" wrote in message
news:***@supernews.com...

On 8/24/2013 6:38 PM, Jim wrote:
> In article <***@supernews.com>,
> ***@gmail.com says...
>>
>> On 8/20/2013 4:07 AM, ***@gmail.com wrote:
>>> On Sunday, August 25, 2002 4:11:57 AM UTC-10, Markesten wrote:
>>>> I heard him with the BPO and the Vienna Phil at Carnegie Hall. I would
>>>> agree
>>>> that his "sound" was never adequately captured on disc. While the
>>>> recordings
>>>> often lead to comments like "shrill," "homogenous" and "mushy," his
>>>> live
>>>> performances were anything but that. In the concert hall, one was
>>>> struck by the
>>>> fact that he achieved an incredibly full sound without ever lapsing
>>>> into the
>>>> banal. There was no "highlighting" of inner voices, so to speak,
>>>> because
>>>> everything was wonderfully in balance so inner voices were heard
>>>> without
>>>> needing to be underlined.
>>>>
>>>> The times I heard him in concert, the interpretation was wonderful even
>>>> if the
>>>> brass sections of these respected fine orchestras served up their share
>>>> of
>>>> clams (something one would almost never expect or accept from American
>>>> players). In addition, the wind players weren't submerged in a wall of
>>>> string
>>>> sound as can often happen on disc.
>>>>
>>>> That said, the EMI recordings probably do fuller justice to HvK's sound
>>>> concept. I'd recommend the Pelleas et Melisande...
>>>
>>> Karajan's PELLEAS... is on Youtube.
>>>
>>
>> This time the post you responded to was from 2002. While, there's no
>> law against it, do you really think it's a good idea to respond to
>> long-dead threads? In view of the comments already made here? Why not
>> start paying attention to the dates?
>
> He's not responding to the previous post, rather just letting us know an
> HvK Pelleas is available on YouTube.
>

By responding to an old post, like I said. He could as easily have
created a new post.

==============

Maybe it is not a good idea to create a new post for everything that can be
found on YouTube.
(Unless a new newsgroup is created as well: rec.music.classical.youtube.)
Frank Berger
2013-08-25 14:27:46 UTC
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On 8/25/2013 5:47 AM, Gerard wrote:
>
>
> "Frank Berger" wrote in message
> news:***@supernews.com...
>
> On 8/24/2013 6:38 PM, Jim wrote:
>> In article <***@supernews.com>,
>> ***@gmail.com says...
>>>
>>> On 8/20/2013 4:07 AM, ***@gmail.com wrote:
>>>> On Sunday, August 25, 2002 4:11:57 AM UTC-10, Markesten wrote:
>>>>> I heard him with the BPO and the Vienna Phil at Carnegie Hall. I
>>>>> would agree
>>>>> that his "sound" was never adequately captured on disc. While the
>>>>> recordings
>>>>> often lead to comments like "shrill," "homogenous" and "mushy," his
>>>>> live
>>>>> performances were anything but that. In the concert hall, one was
>>>>> struck by the
>>>>> fact that he achieved an incredibly full sound without ever lapsing
>>>>> into the
>>>>> banal. There was no "highlighting" of inner voices, so to speak,
>>>>> because
>>>>> everything was wonderfully in balance so inner voices were heard
>>>>> without
>>>>> needing to be underlined.
>>>>>
>>>>> The times I heard him in concert, the interpretation was wonderful
>>>>> even if the
>>>>> brass sections of these respected fine orchestras served up their
>>>>> share of
>>>>> clams (something one would almost never expect or accept from American
>>>>> players). In addition, the wind players weren't submerged in a wall
>>>>> of string
>>>>> sound as can often happen on disc.
>>>>>
>>>>> That said, the EMI recordings probably do fuller justice to HvK's
>>>>> sound
>>>>> concept. I'd recommend the Pelleas et Melisande...
>>>>
>>>> Karajan's PELLEAS... is on Youtube.
>>>>
>>>
>>> This time the post you responded to was from 2002. While, there's no
>>> law against it, do you really think it's a good idea to respond to
>>> long-dead threads? In view of the comments already made here? Why not
>>> start paying attention to the dates?
>>
>> He's not responding to the previous post, rather just letting us know an
>> HvK Pelleas is available on YouTube.
>>
>
> By responding to an old post, like I said. He could as easily have
> created a new post.
>
> ==============
>
> Maybe it is not a good idea to create a new post for everything that can
> be found on YouTube.
> (Unless a new newsgroup is created as well: rec.music.classical.youtube.)

As is often the case, Gerard, you made a true statement. True, but of
absolutely no value.
Gerard
2013-08-25 14:51:07 UTC
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"Frank Berger" wrote in message
news:***@supernews.com...

On 8/25/2013 5:47 AM, Gerard wrote:
>
>
> "Frank Berger" wrote in message
> news:***@supernews.com...
>
> On 8/24/2013 6:38 PM, Jim wrote:
>> In article <***@supernews.com>,
>> ***@gmail.com says...
>>>
>>> On 8/20/2013 4:07 AM, ***@gmail.com wrote:
>>>> On Sunday, August 25, 2002 4:11:57 AM UTC-10, Markesten wrote:
>>>>> I heard him with the BPO and the Vienna Phil at Carnegie Hall. I
>>>>> would agree
>>>>> that his "sound" was never adequately captured on disc. While the
>>>>> recordings
>>>>> often lead to comments like "shrill," "homogenous" and "mushy," his
>>>>> live
>>>>> performances were anything but that. In the concert hall, one was
>>>>> struck by the
>>>>> fact that he achieved an incredibly full sound without ever lapsing
>>>>> into the
>>>>> banal. There was no "highlighting" of inner voices, so to speak,
>>>>> because
>>>>> everything was wonderfully in balance so inner voices were heard
>>>>> without
>>>>> needing to be underlined.
>>>>>
>>>>> The times I heard him in concert, the interpretation was wonderful
>>>>> even if the
>>>>> brass sections of these respected fine orchestras served up their
>>>>> share of
>>>>> clams (something one would almost never expect or accept from American
>>>>> players). In addition, the wind players weren't submerged in a wall
>>>>> of string
>>>>> sound as can often happen on disc.
>>>>>
>>>>> That said, the EMI recordings probably do fuller justice to HvK's
>>>>> sound
>>>>> concept. I'd recommend the Pelleas et Melisande...
>>>>
>>>> Karajan's PELLEAS... is on Youtube.
>>>>
>>>
>>> This time the post you responded to was from 2002. While, there's no
>>> law against it, do you really think it's a good idea to respond to
>>> long-dead threads? In view of the comments already made here? Why not
>>> start paying attention to the dates?
>>
>> He's not responding to the previous post, rather just letting us know an
>> HvK Pelleas is available on YouTube.
>>
>
> By responding to an old post, like I said. He could as easily have
> created a new post.
>
> ==============
>
> Maybe it is not a good idea to create a new post for everything that can
> be found on YouTube.
> (Unless a new newsgroup is created as well: rec.music.classical.youtube.)

As is often the case, Gerard, you made a true statement. True, but of
absolutely no value.

=========

Do we need anything of value, while we have your splendid posts here?
Frank Berger
2013-08-27 00:51:33 UTC
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On 8/25/2013 10:51 AM, Gerard wrote:
>
>
> "Frank Berger" wrote in message
> news:***@supernews.com...
>
> On 8/25/2013 5:47 AM, Gerard wrote:
>>
>>
>> "Frank Berger" wrote in message
>> news:***@supernews.com...
>>
>> On 8/24/2013 6:38 PM, Jim wrote:
>>> In article <***@supernews.com>,
>>> ***@gmail.com says...
>>>>
>>>> On 8/20/2013 4:07 AM, ***@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>> On Sunday, August 25, 2002 4:11:57 AM UTC-10, Markesten wrote:
>>>>>> I heard him with the BPO and the Vienna Phil at Carnegie Hall. I
>>>>>> would agree
>>>>>> that his "sound" was never adequately captured on disc. While the
>>>>>> recordings
>>>>>> often lead to comments like "shrill," "homogenous" and "mushy," his
>>>>>> live
>>>>>> performances were anything but that. In the concert hall, one was
>>>>>> struck by the
>>>>>> fact that he achieved an incredibly full sound without ever lapsing
>>>>>> into the
>>>>>> banal. There was no "highlighting" of inner voices, so to speak,
>>>>>> because
>>>>>> everything was wonderfully in balance so inner voices were heard
>>>>>> without
>>>>>> needing to be underlined.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The times I heard him in concert, the interpretation was wonderful
>>>>>> even if the
>>>>>> brass sections of these respected fine orchestras served up their
>>>>>> share of
>>>>>> clams (something one would almost never expect or accept from
>>>>>> American
>>>>>> players). In addition, the wind players weren't submerged in a wall
>>>>>> of string
>>>>>> sound as can often happen on disc.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> That said, the EMI recordings probably do fuller justice to HvK's
>>>>>> sound
>>>>>> concept. I'd recommend the Pelleas et Melisande...
>>>>>
>>>>> Karajan's PELLEAS... is on Youtube.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> This time the post you responded to was from 2002. While, there's no
>>>> law against it, do you really think it's a good idea to respond to
>>>> long-dead threads? In view of the comments already made here? Why not
>>>> start paying attention to the dates?
>>>
>>> He's not responding to the previous post, rather just letting us know an
>>> HvK Pelleas is available on YouTube.
>>>
>>
>> By responding to an old post, like I said. He could as easily have
>> created a new post.
>>
>> ==============
>>
>> Maybe it is not a good idea to create a new post for everything that can
>> be found on YouTube.
>> (Unless a new newsgroup is created as well: rec.music.classical.youtube.)
>
> As is often the case, Gerard, you made a true statement. True, but of
> absolutely no value.
>
> =========
>
> Do we need anything of value, while we have your splendid posts here?
>

I don't know. What do you think?
r***@gmail.com
2013-08-27 19:26:54 UTC
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On Monday, August 26, 2013 8:51:33 PM UTC-4, Frank Berger wrote:
> On 8/25/2013 10:51 AM, Gerard wrote:
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > "Frank Berger" wrote in message
>
> > news:***@supernews.com...
>
> >
>
> > On 8/25/2013 5:47 AM, Gerard wrote:
>
> >>
>
> >>
>
> >> "Frank Berger" wrote in message
>
> >> news:***@supernews.com...
>
> >>
>
> >> On 8/24/2013 6:38 PM, Jim wrote:
>
> >>> In article <***@supernews.com>,
>
> >>> ***@gmail.com says...
>
> >>>>
>
> >>>> On 8/20/2013 4:07 AM, ***@gmail.com wrote:
>
> >>>>> On Sunday, August 25, 2002 4:11:57 AM UTC-10, Markesten wrote:
>
> >>>>>> I heard him with the BPO and the Vienna Phil at Carnegie Hall. I
>
> >>>>>> would agree
>
> >>>>>> that his "sound" was never adequately captured on disc. While the
>
> >>>>>> recordings
>
> >>>>>> often lead to comments like "shrill," "homogenous" and "mushy," his
>
> >>>>>> live
>
> >>>>>> performances were anything but that. In the concert hall, one was
>
> >>>>>> struck by the
>
> >>>>>> fact that he achieved an incredibly full sound without ever lapsing
>
> >>>>>> into the
>
> >>>>>> banal. There was no "highlighting" of inner voices, so to speak,
>
> >>>>>> because
>
> >>>>>> everything was wonderfully in balance so inner voices were heard
>
> >>>>>> without
>
> >>>>>> needing to be underlined.
>
> >>>>>>
>
> >>>>>> The times I heard him in concert, the interpretation was wonderful
>
> >>>>>> even if the
>
> >>>>>> brass sections of these respected fine orchestras served up their
>
> >>>>>> share of
>
> >>>>>> clams (something one would almost never expect or accept from
>
> >>>>>> American
>
> >>>>>> players). In addition, the wind players weren't submerged in a wall
>
> >>>>>> of string
>
> >>>>>> sound as can often happen on disc.
>
> >>>>>>
>
> >>>>>> That said, the EMI recordings probably do fuller justice to HvK's
>
> >>>>>> sound
>
> >>>>>> concept. I'd recommend the Pelleas et Melisande...
>
> >>>>>
>
> >>>>> Karajan's PELLEAS... is on Youtube.
>
> >>>>>
>
> >>>>
>
> >>>> This time the post you responded to was from 2002. While, there's no
>
> >>>> law against it, do you really think it's a good idea to respond to
>
> >>>> long-dead threads? In view of the comments already made here? Why not
>
> >>>> start paying attention to the dates?
>
> >>>
>
> >>> He's not responding to the previous post, rather just letting us know an
>
> >>> HvK Pelleas is available on YouTube.
>
> >>>
>
> >>
>
> >> By responding to an old post, like I said. He could as easily have
>
> >> created a new post.
>
> >>
>
> >> ==============
>
> >>
>
> >> Maybe it is not a good idea to create a new post for everything that can
>
> >> be found on YouTube.
>
> >> (Unless a new newsgroup is created as well: rec.music.classical.youtube.)
>
> >
>
> > As is often the case, Gerard, you made a true statement. True, but of
>
> > absolutely no value.
>
> >
>
> > =========
>
> >
>
> > Do we need anything of value, while we have your splendid posts here?
>
> >
>
>
>
> I don't know. What do you think?

I suspect that I already have been, given the quality of some reissues.
RVG
2013-08-25 18:42:28 UTC
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Le 25/08/2013 11:47, Gerard a écrit :
>
>
>>>>
>>>> Karajan's PELLEAS... is on Youtube.
>>>>
>>>
>>> This time the post you responded to was from 2002. While,
>>> there's no law against it, do you really think it's a good idea
>>> to respond to long-dead threads? In view of the comments already
>>> made here? Why not start paying attention to the dates?
>>
>> He's not responding to the previous post, rather just letting us
>> know an HvK Pelleas is available on YouTube.
>>
>
> By responding to an old post, like I said. He could as easily have
> created a new post.
>
> ==============
>
> Maybe it is not a good idea to create a new post for everything that
> can be found on YouTube. (Unless a new newsgroup is created as well:
> rec.music.classical.youtube.)

Do you know that Youtube automatically filters out frequencies higher
than 16kHz ?
Although most people older than 45 may not hear this spectrum of high
frequencies, they're part of the harmonic palette of resonances expected
from Hi-Fi recordings, so I think that Youtube deliberately downgrades
the audio quality on their videos to that people won't make hifi quality
copies of them and be tempted to sell them.

For example the spectrograph of Foobar2000 displays frequencies up to
22kHz, which is the frequency of a dog-whistle that kids up to 10yo can
also hear.

--
"Shut your eyes and see."
James Joyce, Ulysses

http://jamen.do/l/a122797
http://jamen.do/l/a122027
http://bluedusk.blogspot.fr/
http://soundcloud.com/rvgronoff
Norman Schwartz
2013-08-25 23:52:50 UTC
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RVG wrote:
> Le 25/08/2013 11:47, Gerard a écrit :
>>
>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Karajan's PELLEAS... is on Youtube.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> This time the post you responded to was from 2002. While,
>>>> there's no law against it, do you really think it's a good idea
>>>> to respond to long-dead threads? In view of the comments already
>>>> made here? Why not start paying attention to the dates?
>>>
>>> He's not responding to the previous post, rather just letting us
>>> know an HvK Pelleas is available on YouTube.
>>>
>>
>> By responding to an old post, like I said. He could as easily have
>> created a new post.
>>
>> ==============
>>
>> Maybe it is not a good idea to create a new post for everything that
>> can be found on YouTube. (Unless a new newsgroup is created as well:
>> rec.music.classical.youtube.)
>
> Do you know that Youtube automatically filters out frequencies higher
> than 16kHz ?
> Although most people older than 45 may not hear this spectrum of high
> frequencies, they're part of the harmonic palette of resonances
> expected from Hi-Fi recordings

And the loudspeakers most often used for listening to Youtube audio are
capable of reproducing frequencies higher (and lower) than ?

so I think that Youtube deliberately
> downgrades the audio quality on their videos to that people won't
> make hifi quality copies of them and be tempted to sell them.
>
> For example the spectrograph of Foobar2000 displays frequencies up to
> 22kHz, which is the frequency of a dog-whistle that kids up to 10yo
> can also hear.
RVG
2013-08-26 14:07:55 UTC
Reply
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Le 26/08/2013 01:52, Norman Schwartz a écrit :
> RVG wrote:
>> Le 25/08/2013 11:47, Gerard a écrit :
>>>
>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Karajan's PELLEAS... is on Youtube.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> This time the post you responded to was from 2002. While,
>>>>> there's no law against it, do you really think it's a good idea
>>>>> to respond to long-dead threads? In view of the comments already
>>>>> made here? Why not start paying attention to the dates?
>>>>
>>>> He's not responding to the previous post, rather just letting us
>>>> know an HvK Pelleas is available on YouTube.
>>>>
>>>
>>> By responding to an old post, like I said. He could as easily have
>>> created a new post.
>>>
>>> ==============
>>>
>>> Maybe it is not a good idea to create a new post for everything that
>>> can be found on YouTube. (Unless a new newsgroup is created as well:
>>> rec.music.classical.youtube.)
>>
>> Do you know that Youtube automatically filters out frequencies higher
>> than 16kHz ?
>> Although most people older than 45 may not hear this spectrum of high
>> frequencies, they're part of the harmonic palette of resonances
>> expected from Hi-Fi recordings
>
> And the loudspeakers most often used for listening to Youtube audio are
> capable of reproducing frequencies higher (and lower) than ?
>

I use my headphones, or I plug my PC on the TV + Hifi amp through HDMI.

> so I think that Youtube deliberately
>> downgrades the audio quality on their videos to that people won't
>> make hifi quality copies of them and be tempted to sell them.
>>
>> For example the spectrograph of Foobar2000 displays frequencies up to
>> 22kHz, which is the frequency of a dog-whistle that kids up to 10yo
>> can also hear.
>
>


--
"Shut your eyes and see."
James Joyce, Ulysses

http://jamen.do/l/a122797
http://jamen.do/l/a122027
http://bluedusk.blogspot.fr/
http://soundcloud.com/rvgronoff
Norman Schwartz
2013-08-26 15:39:24 UTC
Reply
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Raw Message
RVG wrote:
> Le 26/08/2013 01:52, Norman Schwartz a écrit :
>> RVG wrote:
>>> Le 25/08/2013 11:47, Gerard a écrit :
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Karajan's PELLEAS... is on Youtube.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This time the post you responded to was from 2002. While,
>>>>>> there's no law against it, do you really think it's a good idea
>>>>>> to respond to long-dead threads? In view of the comments already
>>>>>> made here? Why not start paying attention to the dates?
>>>>>
>>>>> He's not responding to the previous post, rather just letting us
>>>>> know an HvK Pelleas is available on YouTube.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> By responding to an old post, like I said. He could as easily have
>>>> created a new post.
>>>>
>>>> ==============
>>>>
>>>> Maybe it is not a good idea to create a new post for everything
>>>> that can be found on YouTube. (Unless a new newsgroup is created
>>>> as well: rec.music.classical.youtube.)
>>>
>>> Do you know that Youtube automatically filters out frequencies
>>> higher than 16kHz ?
>>> Although most people older than 45 may not hear this spectrum of
>>> high frequencies, they're part of the harmonic palette of resonances
>>> expected from Hi-Fi recordings
>>
>> And the loudspeakers most often used for listening to Youtube audio
>> are capable of reproducing frequencies higher (and lower) than ?
>>
>
> I use my headphones, or I plug my PC on the TV + Hifi amp through
> HDMI.
>
I can also use headphones, and listen/watch YouTube through an Oppo BDP-93
and my main audio system, etc.
Do you see many people sitting around using their Stax
earspeakers/amplifiers listening to YouTube?
(IAE personally speaking, at my age and hearing ability the entire
proposition is moot.)

>> so I think that Youtube deliberately
>>> downgrades the audio quality on their videos to that people won't
>>> make hifi quality copies of them and be tempted to sell them.
>>>

I can't imagine (m)any customers for copies of YouTube downloads. :-)

>>> For example the spectrograph of Foobar2000 displays frequencies up
>>> to 22kHz, which is the frequency of a dog-whistle that kids up to
>>> 10yo can also hear.
r***@gmail.com
2013-08-26 15:19:02 UTC
Reply
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On Sunday, August 25, 2013 2:42:28 PM UTC-4, RVG wrote:
> Le 25/08/2013 11:47, Gerard a écrit :
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >>>>
>
> >>>> Karajan's PELLEAS... is on Youtube.
>
> >>>>
>
> >>>
>
> >>> This time the post you responded to was from 2002. While,
>
> >>> there's no law against it, do you really think it's a good idea
>
> >>> to respond to long-dead threads? In view of the comments already
>
> >>> made here? Why not start paying attention to the dates?
>
> >>
>
> >> He's not responding to the previous post, rather just letting us
>
> >> know an HvK Pelleas is available on YouTube.
>
> >>
>
> >
>
> > By responding to an old post, like I said. He could as easily have
>
> > created a new post.
>
> >
>
> > ==============
>
> >
>
> > Maybe it is not a good idea to create a new post for everything that
>
> > can be found on YouTube. (Unless a new newsgroup is created as well:
>
> > rec.music.classical.youtube.)
>
>
>
> Do you know that Youtube automatically filters out frequencies higher
>
> than 16kHz ?
>
> Although most people older than 45 may not hear this spectrum of high
>
> frequencies, they're part of the harmonic palette of resonances expected
>
> from Hi-Fi recordings, so I think that Youtube deliberately downgrades
>
> the audio quality on their videos to that people won't make hifi quality
>
> copies of them and be tempted to sell them.
>
>
>
> For example the spectrograph of Foobar2000 displays frequencies up to
>
> 22kHz, which is the frequency of a dog-whistle that kids up to 10yo can
>
> also hear.
>
>
>
> --
>
> "Shut your eyes and see."
>
> James Joyce, Ulysses
>
>
>
> http://jamen.do/l/a122797
>
> http://jamen.do/l/a122027
>
> http://bluedusk.blogspot.fr/
>
> http://soundcloud.com/rvgronoff

I did not know this. However, it means that it offers somewhat greater frequency range than VHF/FM broadcasts, which have been of more than good enough quality since I first began listening to BBC Radio 3 (the Third Programme when I started). In a nutshell- no problem. It is also, of course, much better than LPs played with the once-universal crystal cartridges.
Richard
RVG
2013-08-27 21:06:21 UTC
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Le 26/08/2013 17:19, ***@gmail.com a écrit :
> On Sunday, August 25, 2013 2:42:28 PM UTC-4, RVG wrote:
>> Le 25/08/2013 11:47, Gerard a écrit :
>>
>>>
>>
>>>
>>
>>>>>>
>>
>>>>>> Karajan's PELLEAS... is on Youtube.
>>
>>>>>>
>>
>>>>>
>>
>>>>> This time the post you responded to was from 2002. While,
>>
>>>>> there's no law against it, do you really think it's a good
>>>>> idea
>>
>>>>> to respond to long-dead threads? In view of the comments
>>>>> already
>>
>>>>> made here? Why not start paying attention to the dates?
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>> He's not responding to the previous post, rather just letting
>>>> us
>>
>>>> know an HvK Pelleas is available on YouTube.
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>
>>
>>> By responding to an old post, like I said. He could as easily
>>> have
>>
>>> created a new post.
>>
>>>
>>
>>> ==============
>>
>>>
>>
>>> Maybe it is not a good idea to create a new post for everything
>>> that
>>
>>> can be found on YouTube. (Unless a new newsgroup is created as
>>> well:
>>
>>> rec.music.classical.youtube.)
>>
>>
>>
>> Do you know that Youtube automatically filters out frequencies
>> higher
>>
>> than 16kHz ?
>>
>> Although most people older than 45 may not hear this spectrum of
>> high
>>
>> frequencies, they're part of the harmonic palette of resonances
>> expected
>>
>> from Hi-Fi recordings, so I think that Youtube deliberately
>> downgrades
>>
>> the audio quality on their videos to that people won't make hifi
>> quality
>>
>> copies of them and be tempted to sell them.
>>
>
> I did not know this. However, it means that it offers somewhat
> greater frequency range than VHF/FM broadcasts, which have been of
> more than good enough quality since I first began listening to BBC
> Radio 3 (the Third Programme when I started). In a nutshell- no
> problem. It is also, of course, much better than LPs played with
> the once-universal crystal cartridges. Richard
>

I've a hyper-sensitive hearing (I can still hear mosquitoes flying at
1m50 from me and pinpoint them - the higher the sound, the easier to
localize). I sleep with earplugs of course and I live in a very quiet
one-way street opposite a clinic so there are no klaxons, not even loud
"music" on any local festival or Christmas time - just the occasional
poor kid crying while having his/her tooth removed or fixed by the
dentist when the window's open on hot days.

I can still hear the E 22.1kHz and I'm 48yo. :)
It was much worse when I was young, that's probably why I enjoyed so
much those long walks in the woods of Normandy, alone with a book and a
sandwich. I would spend hours listening to the harmonies "sung" by the
grasshoppers.

--
"Shut your eyes and see."
James Joyce, Ulysses

http://jamen.do/l/a122797
http://jamen.do/l/a122027
http://bluedusk.blogspot.fr/
http://soundcloud.com/rvgronoff
g***@gmail.com
2014-09-20 09:39:47 UTC
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On Saturday, August 24, 2002 7:29:36 PM UTC-10, PJanssen0903 wrote:
> I was wondering what is the opinion of all collectors on a performance that
> best captures Herbert von Karajan's "sound." I have here, as an example that
> does not please me, the "Pagliacci" of DG Originals. Even though there is a lot
> of energy in the playing that you can hear right from the opening fanfares, I
> hear a hard, "plastic" sound in the recording. There is not any depth to it. It
> sounds like these people are playing on very shrill toy instruments, even
> though with a lot of virtuosity. This is made by Deutsche Grammophon of the
> nineteen sixties.
>
> People who heard HvK in concert, especially with the BPO, talk of remembering a
> very warm full sound, and that is not what I hear that the engineer has
> preserved on this recording. So I am curious whether any of the hundreds of HvK
> recordings, on DG and EMI, can offer sound that is any more than "adequate" and
> sounds as the so called Karajan sound was experienced live. I hope that can be
> understood.

According to this book on Furtwangler:

- Many have since pursued beauty of tone virtually as an end in itself, but no conductor in the 20th century made more of a fetish of it than Herbert von Karajan.

http://books.google.com/books?id=eX2FMBU9420C&pg=PA486&dq=%22Many+have+since+pursued+beauty+of+tone+virtually+as+an+end+in+itself,+but+no+conductor+in+the+20th+century+made+more+of+a+fetish+of+it+than+Herbert+von+Karajan.%22&hl=en&sa=X&ei=KEsdVNb1B9XtoASQkoKwAw&ved=0CCgQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=%22Many%20have%20since%20pursued%20beauty%20of%20tone%20virtually%20as%20an%20end%20in%20itself%2C%20but%20no%20conductor%20in%20the%2020th%20century%20made%20more%20of%20a%20fetish%20of%20it%20than%20Herbert%20von%20Karajan.%22&f=false
g***@gmail.com
2014-10-31 09:11:49 UTC
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On Saturday, August 24, 2002 7:29:36 PM UTC-10, PJanssen0903 wrote:
> I was wondering what is the opinion of all collectors on a performance that
> best captures Herbert von Karajan's "sound." I have here, as an example that
> does not please me, the "Pagliacci" of DG Originals. Even though there is a lot
> of energy in the playing that you can hear right from the opening fanfares, I
> hear a hard, "plastic" sound in the recording. There is not any depth to it. It
> sounds like these people are playing on very shrill toy instruments, even
> though with a lot of virtuosity. This is made by Deutsche Grammophon of the
> nineteen sixties.
>
> People who heard HvK in concert, especially with the BPO, talk of remembering a
> very warm full sound, and that is not what I hear that the engineer has
> preserved on this recording. So I am curious whether any of the hundreds of HvK
> recordings, on DG and EMI, can offer sound that is any more than "adequate" and
> sounds as the so called Karajan sound was experienced live. I hope that can be
> understood.

Would you call the Karajan sound VELVETY? (recent article):

http://www.vulture.com/2014/10/berlin-philharmonics-retro-reinvention.html
Norman Schwartz
2014-11-02 00:50:11 UTC
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***@gmail.com wrote:
> On Saturday, August 24, 2002 7:29:36 PM UTC-10, PJanssen0903 wrote:
>> I was wondering what is the opinion of all collectors on a
>> performance that best captures Herbert von Karajan's "sound." I have
>> here, as an example that does not please me, the "Pagliacci" of DG
>> Originals. Even though there is a lot of energy in the playing that
>> you can hear right from the opening fanfares, I hear a hard,
>> "plastic" sound in the recording. There is not any depth to it. It
>> sounds like these people are playing on very shrill toy instruments,
>> even though with a lot of virtuosity. This is made by Deutsche
>> Grammophon of the nineteen sixties.
>>
>> People who heard HvK in concert, especially with the BPO, talk of
>> remembering a very warm full sound, and that is not what I hear that
>> the engineer has preserved on this recording. So I am curious
>> whether any of the hundreds of HvK recordings, on DG and EMI, can
>> offer sound that is any more than "adequate" and sounds as the so
>> called Karajan sound was experienced live. I hope that can be
>> understood.
>
> Would you call the Karajan sound VELVETY? (recent article):
>
> http://www.vulture.com/2014/10/berlin-philharmonics-retro-reinvention.html

Ever expecting sound of even the best recording heard via loudspeakers in
one's listening room, or through the very best headphones, to match that
heard in a concert hall is simply a lost cause (regardless of what anyone
says to the contrary).
William Sommerwerck
2014-11-02 14:29:05 UTC
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"Norman Schwartz" wrote in message news:cdf5w.526639$***@fx05.iad...

> Ever expecting sound of even the best recording heard via
> loudspeakers in one's listening room, or through the very best
> headphones, to match that heard in a concert hall is simply
> a lost cause (regardless of what anyone says to the contrary).

I say so, to the contrary. It's possible to closely approach the live
experience. Acoustically, anyway.
Norman Schwartz
2014-11-02 16:28:06 UTC
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William Sommerwerck wrote:
> "Norman Schwartz" wrote in message
> news:cdf5w.526639$***@fx05.iad...
>> Ever expecting sound of even the best recording heard via
>> loudspeakers in one's listening room, or through the very best
>> headphones, to match that heard in a concert hall is simply
>> a lost cause (regardless of what anyone says to the contrary).
>
> I say so, to the contrary. It's possible to closely approach the live
> experience. Acoustically, anyway.

So seated blindfolded, (if all other considerations were properly taken care
of like people kicking the back of your chair and pushing your arms off of
armrests :-) ), if you believe live sound can't very easily be distinguised
from a recording (even when having access to the best equipment, recordings,
listening room/environment, etc. available 'under the sun', then I'm truly
at a loss for words (which of its self might be a good thing).
Ray Hall
2014-11-02 20:46:46 UTC
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Norman Schwartz wrote:
> William Sommerwerck wrote:
>> "Norman Schwartz" wrote in message
>> news:cdf5w.526639$***@fx05.iad...
>>> Ever expecting sound of even the best recording heard via
>>> loudspeakers in one's listening room, or through the very best
>>> headphones, to match that heard in a concert hall is simply
>>> a lost cause (regardless of what anyone says to the contrary).
>>
>> I say so, to the contrary. It's possible to closely approach the live
>> experience. Acoustically, anyway.
>
> So seated blindfolded, (if all other considerations were properly taken care
> of like people kicking the back of your chair and pushing your arms off of
> armrests :-) ), if you believe live sound can't very easily be distinguised
> from a recording (even when having access to the best equipment, recordings,
> listening room/environment, etc. available 'under the sun', then I'm truly
> at a loss for words (which of its self might be a good thing).
>
>

Notice that William said 'closely approach' acoustically. There will be
many interpretations of how close is close, all of them part
subjectively based.

I've given up the chase, given that I'm not Rupert Murdoch, and neither
do I wish to be.

Ray Hall, Taree
William Sommerwerck
2014-11-02 21:11:41 UTC
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"Norman Schwartz" wrote in message news:xYs5w.462880$***@fx19.iad...
William Sommerwerck wrote:
> "Norman Schwartz" wrote in message
> news:cdf5w.526639$***@fx05.iad...

>>> Ever expecting sound of even the best recording heard via
>>> loudspeakers in one's listening room, or through the very best
>>> headphones, to match that heard in a concert hall is simply
>> a lost cause (regardless of what anyone says to the contrary).

>> I say so, to the contrary. It's possible to closely approach the live
>> experience. Acoustically, anyway.

> So seated blindfolded, (if all other considerations were properly taken care
> of like people kicking the back of your chair and pushing your arms off of
> armrests :-) ), if you believe live sound can't very easily be distinguised
> from a recording (even when having access to the best equipment, recordings,
> listening room/environment, etc. available 'under the sun', then I'm truly
> at a loss for words (which of its self might be a good thing).

I said "closely approach" -- not "exactly duplicate".

If you've never heard such playback -- either from your own recordings, or
commercial disks -- you're not in a position to pass judgment on whether such
a thing is possible.
Norman Schwartz
2014-11-02 23:20:06 UTC
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William Sommerwerck wrote:
> "Norman Schwartz" wrote in message
> news:xYs5w.462880$***@fx19.iad... William Sommerwerck wrote:
>> "Norman Schwartz" wrote in message
>> news:cdf5w.526639$***@fx05.iad...
>
>>>> Ever expecting sound of even the best recording heard via
>>>> loudspeakers in one's listening room, or through the very best
>>>> headphones, to match that heard in a concert hall is simply
>>> a lost cause (regardless of what anyone says to the contrary).
>
>>> I say so, to the contrary. It's possible to closely approach the
>>> live experience. Acoustically, anyway.
>
>> So seated blindfolded, (if all other considerations were properly
>> taken care of like people kicking the back of your chair and pushing
>> your arms off of armrests :-) ), if you believe live sound can't
>> very easily be distinguised from a recording (even when having
>> access to the best equipment, recordings, listening
>> room/environment, etc. available 'under the sun', then I'm truly at
>> a loss for words (which of its self might be a good thing).
>
> I said "closely approach" -- not "exactly duplicate".
>
> If you've never heard such playback -- either from your own
> recordings, or commercial disks -- you're not in a position to pass
> judgment on whether such a thing is possible.

Oh I know, I must first listen to *your* particular system using your
recordings and disks to compare the results experienced at my partcicular
seating locations in the venues I attended. Then and only then, will I be
capable of passing judgment. (My judgment is no better nor worse than is
yours. Both are limited by our own particular experiences and hearing
capabilities within various times of our lives.)
William Sommerwerck
2014-11-03 13:38:16 UTC
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"Norman Schwartz" wrote in message news:P_y5w.626543$***@fx23.iad...

> Oh I know, I must first listen to *your* particular system using
> your recordings and disks to compare the results experienced
> at my partcicular seating locations in the venues I attended.
> Then and only then, will I be capable of passing judgment.
> (My judgment is no better nor worse than is yours. Both are
> limited by our own particular experiences and hearing
> capabilities within various times of our lives.)

My judgment //is// better, if only because I've experiences that make it
possible to make a better judgment.

Your statement that a close approximation to live sound is impossible is based
on... nothing. Have you ever made live recordings (especially Ambisonic)?
Norman Schwartz
2014-11-04 14:59:48 UTC
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William Sommerwerck wrote:
> "Norman Schwartz" wrote in message
> news:P_y5w.626543$***@fx23.iad...
>> Oh I know, I must first listen to *your* particular system using
>> your recordings and disks to compare the results experienced
>> at my partcicular seating locations in the venues I attended.
>> Then and only then, will I be capable of passing judgment.
>> (My judgment is no better nor worse than is yours. Both are
>> limited by our own particular experiences and hearing
>> capabilities within various times of our lives.)
>
> My judgment //is// better, if only because I've experiences that make
> it possible to make a better judgment.
>
> Your statement that a close approximation to live sound is impossible
> is based on... nothing. Have you ever made live recordings
> (especially Ambisonic)?

But I've often attended and had subscriptions to hear live music; Avery
Fisher Hall, Merkin Hall, NY State Theater, Carnegie Hall, the Metropolitan
Opera House plus others BUT admittedly I do not listen to music at home
sitting in the center of a soundfield having MUSIC fired at me from the
front and rear/sides. The latter doesn't conform to any live music
experience, (unless of course musicians/vocalists were placed at those
positions within the theater), so it automatically disqualifies itself.
MiNe109
2014-11-04 20:49:21 UTC
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On 11/4/14, 8:59 AM, Norman Schwartz wrote:
> William Sommerwerck wrote:

>> My judgment //is// better, if only because I've experiences that
>> make it possible to make a better judgment.
>>
>> Your statement that a close approximation to live sound is
>> impossible is based on... nothing. Have you ever made live
>> recordings (especially Ambisonic)?
>
> But I've often attended and had subscriptions to hear live music;
> Avery Fisher Hall, Merkin Hall, NY State Theater, Carnegie Hall, the
> Metropolitan Opera House plus others BUT admittedly I do not listen
> to music at home sitting in the center of a soundfield having MUSIC
> fired at me from the front and rear/sides. The latter doesn't conform
> to any live music experience, (unless of course musicians/vocalists
> were placed at those positions within the theater), so it
> automatically disqualifies itself.

If you were at a live event, MUSIC *was* fired at you from all
directions. (Outdoor concerts excepted.)

Purist recordings have ambient sound in the surround channels, yielding
an immersive soundfield at playback.

Stephen
Herman
2014-11-04 18:24:54 UTC
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On Monday, November 3, 2014 2:38:24 PM UTC+1, William Sommerwerck wrote:

>
> My judgment //is// better, if only because I've experiences that make it
> possible to make a better judgment.
>
> Your statement that a close approximation to live sound is impossible is based
> on... nothing. Have you ever made live recordings (especially Ambisonic)?

this so stuck record.
Norman Schwartz
2014-11-05 16:43:26 UTC
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William Sommerwerck wrote:
> "Norman Schwartz" wrote in message
> news:xYs5w.462880$***@fx19.iad... William Sommerwerck wrote:
>> "Norman Schwartz" wrote in message
>> news:cdf5w.526639$***@fx05.iad...
>
>>>> Ever expecting sound of even the best recording heard via
>>>> loudspeakers in one's listening room, or through the very best
>>>> headphones, to match that heard in a concert hall is simply
>>> a lost cause (regardless of what anyone says to the contrary).
>
>>> I say so, to the contrary. It's possible to closely approach the
>>> live experience. Acoustically, anyway.
>
>> So seated blindfolded, (if all other considerations were properly
>> taken care of like people kicking the back of your chair and pushing
>> your arms off of armrests :-) ), if you believe live sound can't
>> very easily be distinguised from a recording (even when having
>> access to the best equipment, recordings, listening
>> room/environment, etc. available 'under the sun', then I'm truly at
>> a loss for words (which of its self might be a good thing).
>
> I said "closely approach" -- not "exactly duplicate".
>

One can also "closely approach" Mount Everest and not set a single inch upon
it, which is what I believe have done.

> If you've never heard such playback -- either from your own
> recordings, or commercial disks -- you're not in a position to pass
> judgment on whether such a thing is possible.
Herman
2014-11-03 16:07:16 UTC
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On Sunday, November 2, 2014 3:29:11 PM UTC+1, William Sommerwerck wrote:

>
> I say so, to the contrary. It's possible to closely approach the live
> experience. Acoustically, anyway.

didn't you say you had not been at a symphony concert for forty years? That would kind of qualify your statement.
William Sommerwerck
2014-11-03 18:32:30 UTC
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"Herman" wrote in message
news:70c3c07a-6879-4f07-8e2c-***@googlegroups.com...
On Sunday, November 2, 2014 3:29:11 PM UTC+1, William Sommerwerck wrote:

>> I say so, to the contrary. It's possible to closely approach the live
>> experience. Acoustically, anyway.

> Didn't you say you had not been at a symphony concert for forty years?
> That would kind of qualify your statement.

The last live music I attended was in 2001. But I won't dispute the point.
John Wiser
2014-11-03 18:53:05 UTC
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"William Sommerwerck" <***@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:m35f3c$51r$***@dont-email.me...
> "Norman Schwartz" wrote in message news:cdf5w.526639$***@fx05.iad...
>
>> Ever expecting sound of even the best recording heard via
>> loudspeakers in one's listening room, or through the very best
>> headphones, to match that heard in a concert hall is simply
>> a lost cause (regardless of what anyone says to the contrary).
>
> I say so, to the contrary. It's possible to closely approach the live experience. Acoustically,
> anyway.
>

That is a commonly held fond delusion.

jdw
William Sommerwerck
2014-11-03 19:06:36 UTC
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"John Wiser" wrote in message news:ccQ5w.451882$***@fx13.iad...
"William Sommerwerck" <***@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:m35f3c$51r$***@dont-email.me...

>> I say so, to the contrary. It's possible to closely approach the live
>> experience. Acoustically, anyway.

> That is a commonly held fond delusion.

It's objective fact. But, then, it's easy to dismiss something you haven't
experienced.
Frank Berger
2014-11-03 19:28:47 UTC
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On 11/3/2014 2:06 PM, William Sommerwerck wrote:
> "John Wiser" wrote in message news:ccQ5w.451882$***@fx13.iad...
> "William Sommerwerck" <***@comcast.net> wrote in message
> news:m35f3c$51r$***@dont-email.me...
>
>>> I say so, to the contrary. It's possible to closely approach the live
>>> experience. Acoustically, anyway.
>
>> That is a commonly held fond delusion.
>
> It's objective fact. But, then, it's easy to dismiss something you
> haven't experienced.

A. Because you think you have experienced something doesn't make it true.

B. IF you do think you have experienced it, and tell us so, that is
opinion, not fact.

C. To be fact, it must be demonstrable. Perhaps it is. But then some
machine will show an identity of sound and still people will claim to
hear differences.

Does it really matter anyway? Perhaps a somewhat inferior reproduced
sound, sans coughing, is preferable.



---
This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active.
http://www.avast.com
g***@gmail.com
2015-06-24 09:14:59 UTC
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On Saturday, August 24, 2002 at 7:29:36 PM UTC-10, PJanssen0903 wrote:
> I was wondering what is the opinion of all collectors on a performance that
> best captures Herbert von Karajan's "sound." I have here, as an example that
> does not please me, the "Pagliacci" of DG Originals. Even though there is a lot
> of energy in the playing that you can hear right from the opening fanfares, I
> hear a hard, "plastic" sound in the recording. There is not any depth to it. It
> sounds like these people are playing on very shrill toy instruments, even
> though with a lot of virtuosity. This is made by Deutsche Grammophon of the
> nineteen sixties.
>
> People who heard HvK in concert, especially with the BPO, talk of remembering a
> very warm full sound, and that is not what I hear that the engineer has
> preserved on this recording. So I am curious whether any of the hundreds of HvK
> recordings, on DG and EMI, can offer sound that is any more than "adequate" and
> sounds as the so called Karajan sound was experienced live. I hope that can be
> understood.

According to the following recent article:

- Maybe it's The Karajan Effect, whereby everything ends up sounding congealed, or homogenised, or Something Bent To Karajan's Will.

https://petersplanets.wordpress.com/2015/01/01/karajan-1981/
g***@gmail.com
2015-06-24 09:29:30 UTC
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On Saturday, August 24, 2002 at 9:45:57 PM UTC-10, Lenny Abbey wrote:
> Von Karajan reminds me of Mantavoni. He likes to wallow in the sound. He is
> like a fog creeping in.
>
> Lenny


According to the following recent article:

- Maybe it's The Karajan Effect, whereby everything ends up sounding congealed, or homogenised, or Something Bent To Karajan's Will.

https://petersplanets.wordpress.com/2015/01/01/karajan-1981/
g***@gmail.com
2015-06-24 09:37:22 UTC
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Raw Message
On Sunday, August 25, 2002 at 4:11:57 AM UTC-10, Markesten wrote:
> I heard him with the BPO and the Vienna Phil at Carnegie Hall. I would agree
> that his "sound" was never adequately captured on disc. While the recordings
> often lead to comments like "shrill," "homogenous" and "mushy,"...


According to the following recent article:

- Maybe it's The Karajan Effect, whereby everything ends up sounding congealed, or homogenised, or Something Bent To Karajan's Will.

https://petersplanets.wordpress.com/2015/01/01/karajan-1981/
Willem Orange
2015-06-24 11:19:15 UTC
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On Wednesday, June 24, 2015 at 5:37:25 AM UTC-4, ***@gmail.com wrote:
> On Sunday, August 25, 2002 at 4:11:57 AM UTC-10, Markesten wrote:
> > I heard him with the BPO and the Vienna Phil at Carnegie Hall. I would agree
> > that his "sound" was never adequately captured on disc. While the recordings
> > often lead to comments like "shrill," "homogenous" and "mushy,"...
>
>
> According to the following recent article:
>
> - Maybe it's The Karajan Effect, whereby everything ends up sounding congealed, or homogenised, or Something Bent To Karajan's Will.
>
> https://petersplanets.wordpress.com/2015/01/01/karajan-1981/

So what???????
g***@gmail.com
2015-08-18 10:31:28 UTC
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Raw Message
On Saturday, August 24, 2002 at 7:29:36 PM UTC-10, PJanssen0903 wrote:
> I was wondering what is the opinion of all collectors on a performance that
> best captures Herbert von Karajan's "sound." I have here, as an example that
> does not please me, the "Pagliacci" of DG Originals. Even though there is a lot
> of energy in the playing that you can hear right from the opening fanfares, I
> hear a hard, "plastic" sound in the recording. There is not any depth to it. It
> sounds like these people are playing on very shrill toy instruments, even
> though with a lot of virtuosity. This is made by Deutsche Grammophon of the
> nineteen sixties.
>
> People who heard HvK in concert, especially with the BPO, talk of remembering a
> very warm full sound, and that is not what I hear that the engineer has
> preserved on this recording. So I am curious whether any of the hundreds of HvK
> recordings, on DG and EMI, can offer sound that is any more than "adequate" and
> sounds as the so called Karajan sound was experienced live. I hope that can be
> understood.

According to this recent article:

- Simon Rattle, for one, has talked about how he was "slightly repelled" by the Karajan sound when he heard it in the flesh for the first time, and he's just one conductor who feels that Karajan - "the emperor of legato" - belongs to a musical world that has no place in today's orchestral culture.

http://www.theguardian.com/music/tomserviceblog/2014/dec/04/herbert-von-karajan-film-john-bridcut-controversy-continues
Herman
2015-08-18 12:47:52 UTC
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On Tuesday, August 18, 2015 at 12:31:35 PM UTC+2, ***@gmail.com wrote:

why don't don't try to listen to music sometimes instead of trolling the internet looking for silly quotes about music?
g***@gmail.com
2016-04-01 09:50:09 UTC
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On Tuesday, August 18, 2015 at 12:31:35 AM UTC-10, ***@gmail.com wrote:
> On Saturday, August 24, 2002 at 7:29:36 PM UTC-10, PJanssen0903 wrote:
> > I was wondering what is the opinion of all collectors on a performance that
> > best captures Herbert von Karajan's "sound." I have here, as an example that
> > does not please me, the "Pagliacci" of DG Originals. Even though there is a lot
> > of energy in the playing that you can hear right from the opening fanfares, I
> > hear a hard, "plastic" sound in the recording. There is not any depth to it. It
> > sounds like these people are playing on very shrill toy instruments, even
> > though with a lot of virtuosity. This is made by Deutsche Grammophon of the
> > nineteen sixties.
> >
> > People who heard HvK in concert, especially with the BPO, talk of remembering a
> > very warm full sound, and that is not what I hear that the engineer has
> > preserved on this recording. So I am curious whether any of the hundreds of HvK
> > recordings, on DG and EMI, can offer sound that is any more than "adequate" and
> > sounds as the so called Karajan sound was experienced live. I hope that can be
> > understood.
>
> According to this recent article:
>
> - Simon Rattle, for one, has talked about how he was "slightly repelled" by the Karajan sound when he heard it in the flesh for the first time, and he's just one conductor who feels that Karajan - "the emperor of legato" - belongs to a musical world that has no place in today's orchestral culture.
>
> http://www.theguardian.com/music/tomserviceblog/2014/dec/04/herbert-von-karajan-film-john-bridcut-controversy-continues

"Simon Rattle on Herbert von Karajan" (2014) is on Youtube.
g***@gmail.com
2016-02-16 08:25:47 UTC
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On Saturday, August 24, 2002 at 9:46:04 PM UTC-10, Lenny Abbey wrote:
> Von Karajan reminds me of Mantavoni. He likes to wallow in the sound. He is
> like a fog creeping in.
>
> Lenny
>
>
> ".com> wrote in message
> news:com...
> > I was wondering what is the opinion of all collectors on a performance
> that
> > best captures Herbert von Karajan's "sound." I have here, as an example
> that
> > does not please me, the "Pagliacci" of DG Originals. Even though there is
> a lot
> > of energy in the playing that you can hear right from the opening
> fanfares, I
> > hear a hard, "plastic" sound in the recording. There is not any depth to
> it. It
> > sounds like these people are playing on very shrill toy instruments, even
> > though with a lot of virtuosity. This is made by Deutsche Grammophon of
> the
> > nineteen sixties.
> >
> > People who heard HvK in concert, especially with the BPO, talk of
> remembering a
> > very warm full sound, and that is not what I hear that the engineer has
> > preserved on this recording. So I am curious whether any of the hundreds
> of HvK
> > recordings, on DG and EMI, can offer sound that is any more than
> "adequate" and
> > sounds as the so called Karajan sound was experienced live. I hope that
> can be
> > understood.
> >

Concerning Karajan's 1963 recording of RITE OF S., the composer said:

- ("tempo di hoochie-coochie"); its velvet languor of pace and texture and virtual absence of incisive accents doesn't merely challenge the work's essential spirit but attempts to obliterate it.

http://www.newyorker.com/culture/culture-desk/the-rite-stuff
g***@gmail.com
2016-02-16 10:01:37 UTC
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On Saturday, August 24, 2002 at 9:46:04 PM UTC-10, Lenny Abbey wrote:
> Von Karajan reminds me of Mantavoni. He likes to wallow in the sound. He is
> like a fog creeping in.
>
> Lenny


Concerning Karajan's 1963 recording of RITE OF S., the composer said:

- ...("tempo di hoochie-coochie"); its velvet languor of pace and texture and virtual absence of incisive accents doesn't merely challenge the work's essential spirit but attempts to obliterate it...

http://www.newyorker.com/culture/culture-desk/the-rite-stuff
g***@gmail.com
2016-02-16 10:06:55 UTC
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On Saturday, August 24, 2002 at 9:46:04 PM UTC-10, Lenny Abbey wrote:
> Von Karajan reminds me of Mantavoni. He likes to wallow in the sound. He is
> like a fog creeping in.
>
> Lenny

Concerning Karajan's 1963 recording of RITE OF S., the composer said:

- ...("tempo di hoochie-coochie"); its velvet languor of pace and texture and virtual absence of incisive accents doesn't merely challenge the work's essential spirit but attempts to obliterate it.

http://www.newyorker.com/culture/culture-desk/the-rite-stuff
g***@gmail.com
2016-04-01 09:53:30 UTC
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On Saturday, August 24, 2002 at 7:28:52 PM UTC-10, PJanssen0903 wrote:
> I was wondering what is the opinion of all collectors on a performance that
> best captures Herbert von Karajan's "sound." I have here, as an example that
> does not please me, the "Pagliacci" of DG Originals. Even though there is a lot
> of energy in the playing that you can hear right from the opening fanfares, I
> hear a hard, "plastic" sound in the recording. There is not any depth to it. It
> sounds like these people are playing on very shrill toy instruments, even
> though with a lot of virtuosity. This is made by Deutsche Grammophon of the
> nineteen sixties.
>
> People who heard HvK in concert, especially with the BPO, talk of remembering a
> very warm full sound, and that is not what I hear that the engineer has
> preserved on this recording. So I am curious whether any of the hundreds of HvK
> recordings, on DG and EMI, can offer sound that is any more than "adequate" and
> sounds as the so called Karajan sound was experienced live. I hope that can be
> understood.

Could this apply to Karajan?:

- The forceps of our minds are clumsy forceps, and crush the truth a little in taking hold of it.

H. G. Wells (1903)
Willem Orange
2016-04-01 12:15:34 UTC
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On Friday, April 1, 2016 at 5:53:33 AM UTC-4, ***@gmail.com wrote:
> On Saturday, August 24, 2002 at 7:28:52 PM UTC-10, PJanssen0903 wrote:
> > I was wondering what is the opinion of all collectors on a performance that
> > best captures Herbert von Karajan's "sound." I have here, as an example that
> > does not please me, the "Pagliacci" of DG Originals. Even though there is a lot
> > of energy in the playing that you can hear right from the opening fanfares, I
> > hear a hard, "plastic" sound in the recording. There is not any depth to it. It
> > sounds like these people are playing on very shrill toy instruments, even
> > though with a lot of virtuosity. This is made by Deutsche Grammophon of the
> > nineteen sixties.
> >
> > People who heard HvK in concert, especially with the BPO, talk of remembering a
> > very warm full sound, and that is not what I hear that the engineer has
> > preserved on this recording. So I am curious whether any of the hundreds of HvK
> > recordings, on DG and EMI, can offer sound that is any more than "adequate" and
> > sounds as the so called Karajan sound was experienced live. I hope that can be
> > understood.
>
> Could this apply to Karajan?:
>
> - The forceps of our minds are clumsy forceps, and crush the truth a little in taking hold of it.
>
> H. G. Wells (1903)

No
Frank Berger
2016-04-01 13:05:04 UTC
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On 4/1/2016 8:15 AM, Willem Orange wrote:
> On Friday, April 1, 2016 at 5:53:33 AM UTC-4, ***@gmail.com wrote:
>> On Saturday, August 24, 2002 at 7:28:52 PM UTC-10, PJanssen0903 wrote:
>>> I was wondering what is the opinion of all collectors on a performance that
>>> best captures Herbert von Karajan's "sound." I have here, as an example that
>>> does not please me, the "Pagliacci" of DG Originals. Even though there is a lot
>>> of energy in the playing that you can hear right from the opening fanfares, I
>>> hear a hard, "plastic" sound in the recording. There is not any depth to it. It
>>> sounds like these people are playing on very shrill toy instruments, even
>>> though with a lot of virtuosity. This is made by Deutsche Grammophon of the
>>> nineteen sixties.
>>>
>>> People who heard HvK in concert, especially with the BPO, talk of remembering a
>>> very warm full sound, and that is not what I hear that the engineer has
>>> preserved on this recording. So I am curious whether any of the hundreds of HvK
>>> recordings, on DG and EMI, can offer sound that is any more than "adequate" and
>>> sounds as the so called Karajan sound was experienced live. I hope that can be
>>> understood.
>>
>> Could this apply to Karajan?:
>>
>> - The forceps of our minds are clumsy forceps, and crush the truth a little in taking hold of it.
>>
>> H. G. Wells (1903)
>
> No
>

Did the OP get any good replies when he asked the question
in 2002?
O
2016-04-01 13:17:27 UTC
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In article <atKdnf6IppKe72PLnZ2dnUU7-***@supernews.com>, Frank
Berger <***@gmail.com> wrote:

> On 4/1/2016 8:15 AM, Willem Orange wrote:
> > On Friday, April 1, 2016 at 5:53:33 AM UTC-4, ***@gmail.com wrote:
> >> On Saturday, August 24, 2002 at 7:28:52 PM UTC-10, PJanssen0903 wrote:
> >>> I was wondering what is the opinion of all collectors on a performance
> >>> that
> >>> best captures Herbert von Karajan's "sound." I have here, as an example
> >>> that
> >>> does not please me, the "Pagliacci" of DG Originals. Even though there is
> >>> a lot
> >>> of energy in the playing that you can hear right from the opening
> >>> fanfares, I
> >>> hear a hard, "plastic" sound in the recording. There is not any depth to
> >>> it. It
> >>> sounds like these people are playing on very shrill toy instruments, even
> >>> though with a lot of virtuosity. This is made by Deutsche Grammophon of
> >>> the
> >>> nineteen sixties.
> >>>
> >>> People who heard HvK in concert, especially with the BPO, talk of
> >>> remembering a
> >>> very warm full sound, and that is not what I hear that the engineer has
> >>> preserved on this recording. So I am curious whether any of the hundreds
> >>> of HvK
> >>> recordings, on DG and EMI, can offer sound that is any more than
> >>> "adequate" and
> >>> sounds as the so called Karajan sound was experienced live. I hope that
> >>> can be
> >>> understood.
> >>
> >> Could this apply to Karajan?:
> >>
> >> - The forceps of our minds are clumsy forceps, and crush the truth a
> >> little in taking hold of it.
> >>
> >> H. G. Wells (1903)
> >
> > No
> >
>
> Did the OP get any good replies when he asked the question
> in 2002?
>

No, and he attempted to squeeze Karajan's head with forceps, shouting
"The Shape of Things To Come!" and leading to an unexpected time travel
incident.

-Owen, I'll never forget Weena.
Frank Berger
2016-04-01 13:21:40 UTC
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On 4/1/2016 9:17 AM, O wrote:
> In article <atKdnf6IppKe72PLnZ2dnUU7-***@supernews.com>, Frank
> Berger <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On 4/1/2016 8:15 AM, Willem Orange wrote:
>>> On Friday, April 1, 2016 at 5:53:33 AM UTC-4, ***@gmail.com wrote:
>>>> On Saturday, August 24, 2002 at 7:28:52 PM UTC-10, PJanssen0903 wrote:
>>>>> I was wondering what is the opinion of all collectors on a performance
>>>>> that
>>>>> best captures Herbert von Karajan's "sound." I have here, as an example
>>>>> that
>>>>> does not please me, the "Pagliacci" of DG Originals. Even though there is
>>>>> a lot
>>>>> of energy in the playing that you can hear right from the opening
>>>>> fanfares, I
>>>>> hear a hard, "plastic" sound in the recording. There is not any depth to
>>>>> it. It
>>>>> sounds like these people are playing on very shrill toy instruments, even
>>>>> though with a lot of virtuosity. This is made by Deutsche Grammophon of
>>>>> the
>>>>> nineteen sixties.
>>>>>
>>>>> People who heard HvK in concert, especially with the BPO, talk of
>>>>> remembering a
>>>>> very warm full sound, and that is not what I hear that the engineer has
>>>>> preserved on this recording. So I am curious whether any of the hundreds
>>>>> of HvK
>>>>> recordings, on DG and EMI, can offer sound that is any more than
>>>>> "adequate" and
>>>>> sounds as the so called Karajan sound was experienced live. I hope that
>>>>> can be
>>>>> understood.
>>>>
>>>> Could this apply to Karajan?:
>>>>
>>>> - The forceps of our minds are clumsy forceps, and crush the truth a
>>>> little in taking hold of it.
>>>>
>>>> H. G. Wells (1903)
>>>
>>> No
>>>
>>
>> Did the OP get any good replies when he asked the question
>> in 2002?
>>
>
> No, and he attempted to squeeze Karajan's head with forceps, shouting
> "The Shape of Things To Come!" and leading to an unexpected time travel
> incident.
>
> -Owen, I'll never forget Weena.
>

LOL. "The Shape of Things to Come" is a phrase more worthy
of Wells' talent than the "clumsy" one about forceps.
g***@gmail.com
2016-07-16 08:34:30 UTC
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On Saturday, August 24, 2002 at 7:28:52 PM UTC-10, PJanssen0903 wrote:
> I was wondering what is the opinion of all collectors on a performance that
> best captures Herbert von Karajan's "sound." I have here, as an example that
> does not please me, the "Pagliacci" of DG Originals. Even though there is a lot
> of energy in the playing that you can hear right from the opening fanfares, I
> hear a hard, "plastic" sound in the recording. There is not any depth to it. It
> sounds like these people are playing on very shrill toy instruments, even
> though with a lot of virtuosity. This is made by Deutsche Grammophon of the
> nineteen sixties.
>
> People who heard HvK in concert, especially with the BPO, talk of remembering a
> very warm full sound, and that is not what I hear that the engineer has
> preserved on this recording. So I am curious whether any of the hundreds of HvK
> recordings, on DG and EMI, can offer sound that is any more than "adequate" and
> sounds as the so called Karajan sound was experienced live. I hope that can be
> understood.

According to the following recent article:

- ...[Karajan's] technical precision can be thrilling, but his aloof objectivity drains music of its essential humanity.

http://www.classicalnotes.net/classics5/italian.html
Bob Harper
2016-07-17 06:34:26 UTC
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On 7/16/16 1:34 AM, ***@gmail.com wrote:
> On Saturday, August 24, 2002 at 7:28:52 PM UTC-10, PJanssen0903
> wrote:
>> I was wondering what is the opinion of all collectors on a
>> performance that best captures Herbert von Karajan's "sound." I
>> have here, as an example that does not please me, the "Pagliacci"
>> of DG Originals. Even though there is a lot of energy in the
>> playing that you can hear right from the opening fanfares, I hear a
>> hard, "plastic" sound in the recording. There is not any depth to
>> it. It sounds like these people are playing on very shrill toy
>> instruments, even though with a lot of virtuosity. This is made by
>> Deutsche Grammophon of the nineteen sixties.
>>
>> People who heard HvK in concert, especially with the BPO, talk of
>> remembering a very warm full sound, and that is not what I hear
>> that the engineer has preserved on this recording. So I am curious
>> whether any of the hundreds of HvK recordings, on DG and EMI, can
>> offer sound that is any more than "adequate" and sounds as the so
>> called Karajan sound was experienced live. I hope that can be
>> understood.
>
> According to the following recent article:
>
> - ...[Karajan's] technical precision can be thrilling, but his aloof
> objectivity drains music of its essential humanity.
>
> http://www.classicalnotes.net/classics5/italian.html
>

Where, oh where, is Michael Schaffer when we need him?

Bob Harper
Lionel Tacchini
2016-07-17 08:37:59 UTC
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On 17.07.2016 08:34, Bob Harper wrote:
> Where, oh where, is Michael Schaffer when we need him?

Hiding on Facebook.

--
Lionel Tacchini
Gerard
2016-07-17 09:10:19 UTC
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"Bob Harper" wrote in message news:PFFiz.11274$***@fx43.iad...

Where, oh where, is Michael Schaffer when we need him?
=================

Do we need him?
When?
Herman
2016-07-17 15:10:55 UTC
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On Sunday, July 17, 2016 at 11:10:32 AM UTC+2, Gerard wrote:
> "Bob Harper" wrote in message news:PFFiz.11274$***@fx43.iad...
>
> Where, oh where, is Michael Schaffer when we need him?
> =================
>
> Do we need him?
> When?

He knew more of how orchestras work and sound than anybody else post 2000 on RMCR.

So yeah, it's too bad he ain't around.
Gerard
2016-07-17 15:41:18 UTC
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"Herman" wrote in message
news:bc5572e2-c629-4ed5-afa8-***@googlegroups.com...

On Sunday, July 17, 2016 at 11:10:32 AM UTC+2, Gerard wrote:
> "Bob Harper" wrote in message news:PFFiz.11274$***@fx43.iad...
>
> Where, oh where, is Michael Schaffer when we need him?
> =================
>
> Do we need him?
> When?

He knew more of how orchestras work and sound than anybody else post 2000 on
RMCR.

=================

Do you mean Henry Fogel?
(Who's contributions more were a pleasure to read.)
Bob Harper
2016-07-18 03:50:12 UTC
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On 7/17/16 8:41 AM, Gerard wrote:
>
> "Herman" wrote in message
> news:bc5572e2-c629-4ed5-afa8-***@googlegroups.com...
>
> On Sunday, July 17, 2016 at 11:10:32 AM UTC+2, Gerard wrote:
>> "Bob Harper" wrote in message news:PFFiz.11274$***@fx43.iad...
>>
>> Where, oh where, is Michael Schaffer when we need him?
>> =================
>>
>> Do we need him?
>> When?
>
> He knew more of how orchestras work and sound than anybody else post
> 2000 on RMCR.
>
> =================
>
> Do you mean Henry Fogel?
> (Who's contributions more were a pleasure to read.)

Granted, Henry was a gentleman, Michael was not. But Herman's right
about his knowledge, and he had an especial regard for Karajan, so one
imagines there'd have been an explosion in response to this overstatement.

Bob Harper
Herman
2016-07-18 14:01:46 UTC
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On Monday, July 18, 2016 at 5:50:12 AM UTC+2, Bob Harper wrote:
> On 7/17/16 8:41 AM, Gerard wrote:
> >
> > "Herman" wrote in message
> > news:bc5572e2-c629-4ed5-afa8-***@googlegroups.com...
> >
> > On Sunday, July 17, 2016 at 11:10:32 AM UTC+2, Gerard wrote:
> >> "Bob Harper" wrote in message news:PFFiz.11274$***@fx43.iad...
> >>
> >> Where, oh where, is Michael Schaffer when we need him?
> >> =================
> >>
> >> Do we need him?
> >> When?
> >
> > He knew more of how orchestras work and sound than anybody else post
> > 2000 on RMCR.
> >
> > =================
> >
> > Do you mean Henry Fogel?
> > (Who's contributions more were a pleasure to read.)
>
> Granted, Henry was a gentleman, Michael was not. But Herman's right
> about his knowledge, and he had an especial regard for Karajan, so one
> imagines there'd have been an explosion in response to this overstatement.
>
> Bob Harper

glad we agree about that.

as long as it wasn't about America vs Yurp Michael was a valuable poster.
Al Eisner
2016-07-18 21:18:52 UTC
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On Sun, 17 Jul 2016, Herman wrote:

> On Sunday, July 17, 2016 at 11:10:32 AM UTC+2, Gerard wrote:
>> "Bob Harper" wrote in message news:PFFiz.11274$***@fx43.iad...
>>
>> Where, oh where, is Michael Schaffer when we need him?
>> =================
>>
>> Do we need him?
>> When?
>
> He knew more of how orchestras work and sound than anybody else post 2000 on RMCR.

I think that's an overstatement. In particular, in his long (and often
fascinating) dialogs with Jeff, I felt Jeff most often came out ahead.

> So yeah, it's too bad he ain't around.

It could be interesting, at least until he starts dishing out abusive
put-downs again....
--
Al Eisner
Bob Harper
2016-07-18 22:16:06 UTC
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On 7/18/16 2:18 PM, Al Eisner wrote:
> On Sun, 17 Jul 2016, Herman wrote:
>
>> On Sunday, July 17, 2016 at 11:10:32 AM UTC+2, Gerard wrote:
>>> "Bob Harper" wrote in message news:PFFiz.11274$***@fx43.iad...
>>>
>>> Where, oh where, is Michael Schaffer when we need him?
>>> =================
>>>
>>> Do we need him?
>>> When?
>>
>> He knew more of how orchestras work and sound than anybody else post
>> 2000 on RMCR.
>
> I think that's an overstatement. In particular, in his long (and often
> fascinating) dialogs with Jeff, I felt Jeff most often came out ahead.
>
>> So yeah, it's too bad he ain't around.
>
> It could be interesting, at least until he starts dishing out abusive
> put-downs again....

Maybe he's matured :)

Bob Harper
g***@gmail.com
2017-01-24 21:48:25 UTC
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On Saturday, August 24, 2002 at 7:28:52 PM UTC-10, PJanssen0903 wrote:
> I was wondering what is the opinion of all collectors on a performance that
> best captures Herbert von Karajan's "sound." I have here, as an example that
> does not please me, the "Pagliacci" of DG Originals. Even though there is a lot
> of energy in the playing that you can hear right from the opening fanfares, I
> hear a hard, "plastic" sound in the recording. There is not any depth to it. It
> sounds like these people are playing on very shrill toy instruments, even
> though with a lot of virtuosity. This is made by Deutsche Grammophon of the
> nineteen sixties.
>
> People who heard HvK in concert, especially with the BPO, talk of remembering a
> very warm full sound, and that is not what I hear that the engineer has
> preserved on this recording. So I am curious whether any of the hundreds of HvK
> recordings, on DG and EMI, can offer sound that is any more than "adequate" and
> sounds as the so called Karajan sound was experienced live. I hope that can be
> understood.

According to this 2014 article:

- But he was accused of building his success on performances that were too perfect – manicured, clinical, shallow: all that glittered could not be gold, we said.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/music/classicalmusic/11274309/Karajan-the-conductor-who-lived-in-the-fast-lane.html
g***@gmail.com
2017-02-27 21:58:18 UTC
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On Saturday, August 24, 2002 at 7:28:52 PM UTC-10, PJanssen0903 wrote:
> I was wondering what is the opinion of all collectors on a performance that
> best captures Herbert von Karajan's "sound." I have here, as an example that
> does not please me, the "Pagliacci" of DG Originals. Even though there is a lot
> of energy in the playing that you can hear right from the opening fanfares, I
> hear a hard, "plastic" sound in the recording. There is not any depth to it. It
> sounds like these people are playing on very shrill toy instruments, even
> though with a lot of virtuosity. This is made by Deutsche Grammophon of the
> nineteen sixties.
>
> People who heard HvK in concert, especially with the BPO, talk of remembering a
> very warm full sound, and that is not what I hear that the engineer has
> preserved on this recording. So I am curious whether any of the hundreds of HvK
> recordings, on DG and EMI, can offer sound that is any more than "adequate" and
> sounds as the so called Karajan sound was experienced live. I hope that can be
> understood.

According to the following:

- To my ears, Karajan's records and live performances often seem contrived, like furniture expertly joined and polished.

https://books.google.com/books?id=5swP8NCjpRsC&pg=PA97&dq=%22to+my+ears,+karajan%27s+records%22&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwinoqyxorHSAhXqxFQKHQDDCOoQ6AEIHDAA#v=onepage&q=%22to%20my%20ears%2C%20karajan's%20records%22&f=false
Raymond Hall
2017-02-28 11:00:27 UTC
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On Tuesday, 28 February 2017 08:58:20 UTC+11, ***@gmail.com wrote:
> On Saturday, August 24, 2002 at 7:28:52 PM UTC-10, PJanssen0903 wrote:
> > I was wondering what is the opinion of all collectors on a performance that
> > best captures Herbert von Karajan's "sound." I have here, as an example that
> > does not please me, the "Pagliacci" of DG Originals. Even though there is a lot
> > of energy in the playing that you can hear right from the opening fanfares, I
> > hear a hard, "plastic" sound in the recording. There is not any depth to it. It
> > sounds like these people are playing on very shrill toy instruments, even
> > though with a lot of virtuosity. This is made by Deutsche Grammophon of the
> > nineteen sixties.
> >
> > People who heard HvK in concert, especially with the BPO, talk of remembering a
> > very warm full sound, and that is not what I hear that the engineer has
> > preserved on this recording. So I am curious whether any of the hundreds of HvK
> > recordings, on DG and EMI, can offer sound that is any more than "adequate" and
> > sounds as the so called Karajan sound was experienced live. I hope that can be
> > understood.
>
> According to the following:
>
> - To my ears, Karajan's records and live performances often seem contrived, like furniture expertly joined and polished.
>
> https://books.google.com/books?id=5swP8NCjpRsC&pg=PA97&dq=%22to+my+ears,+karajan%27s+records%22&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwinoqyxorHSAhXqxFQKHQDDCOoQ6AEIHDAA#v=onepage&q=%22to%20my%20ears%2C%20karajan's%20records%22&f=false

Someone not so long ago in this forum, suggested that HvK's sound was fine when listened to on a portable radio while preparing something in the kitchen. His musical vision, in my opinion, was excellent, but he buried it in a thick sludge aided and abetted by the BPO and DG.

Ray Hall, Taree
Gerard
2017-02-28 16:46:04 UTC
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Op dinsdag 28 februari 2017 12:00:29 UTC+1 schreef Raymond Hall:
>
> Someone not so long ago in this forum, suggested that HvK's sound was fine when listened to on a portable radio while preparing something in the kitchen. His musical vision, in my opinion, was excellent, but he buried it in a thick sludge aided and abetted by the BPO and DG.
>
> Ray Hall, Taree

Maybe you're referring to a post of mine.
The story I've heard however was that Karajan's recording team (Karajan and his technical staff, engineers included) had the 'philosophy' that his (Karajan's) recordings should have to sound good on a kitchen table portable radio. And that was the sound they delivered.

Nevertheless ... some of his recordings do sound somewhat better than that (by mistake?)
g***@gmail.com
2017-03-01 00:16:18 UTC
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On Tuesday, February 28, 2017 at 6:46:06 AM UTC-10, Gerard wrote:
> Op dinsdag 28 februari 2017 12:00:29 UTC+1 schreef Raymond Hall:
> >
> > Someone not so long ago in this forum, suggested that HvK's sound was fine when listened to on a portable radio while preparing something in the kitchen. His musical vision, in my opinion, was excellent, but he buried it in a thick sludge aided and abetted by the BPO and DG.
> >
> > Ray Hall, Taree
>
> Maybe you're referring to a post of mine.
> The story I've heard however was that Karajan's recording team (Karajan and his technical staff, engineers included) had the 'philosophy' that his (Karajan's) recordings should have to sound good on a kitchen table portable radio. And that was the sound they delivered...

The following may be of interest:

- “[It is] nothing more than a sophisticated way of bringing higher fi to record buyers who don’t care enough about hi-fi to invest in a decent playback system.”

http://www.tronola.com/html/dynagroove.html
g***@gmail.com
2017-03-01 00:36:57 UTC
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On Tuesday, February 28, 2017 at 2:16:20 PM UTC-10, ***@gmail.com wrote:
> On Tuesday, February 28, 2017 at 6:46:06 AM UTC-10, Gerard wrote:
> > Op dinsdag 28 februari 2017 12:00:29 UTC+1 schreef Raymond Hall:
> > >
> > > Someone not so long ago in this forum, suggested that HvK's sound was fine when listened to on a portable radio while preparing something in the kitchen. His musical vision, in my opinion, was excellent, but he buried it in a thick sludge aided and abetted by the BPO and DG.
> > >
> > > Ray Hall, Taree
> >
> > Maybe you're referring to a post of mine.
> > The story I've heard however was that Karajan's recording team (Karajan and his technical staff, engineers included) had the 'philosophy' that his (Karajan's) recordings should have to sound good on a kitchen table portable radio. And that was the sound they delivered...
>
> The following may be of interest:
>
> - “[It is] nothing more than a sophisticated way of bringing higher fi to record buyers who don’t care enough about hi-fi to invest in a decent playback system.”
>
> http://www.tronola.com/html/dynagroove.html

According to the following:

- Holt, a noted audio engineer and writer of the 1960s and 1970s, slammed Dynagroove as introducing "pre-distortion" into the mastering process, making the records sound worse if they were played on high-quality phono systems.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dynagroove
Terry
2017-03-01 01:05:21 UTC
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On Wednesday, March 1, 2017 at 3:46:06 AM UTC+11, Gerard wrote:
> Op dinsdag 28 februari 2017 12:00:29 UTC+1 schreef Raymond Hall:
> >
> > Someone not so long ago in this forum, suggested that HvK's sound was fine when listened to on a portable radio while preparing something in the kitchen. His musical vision, in my opinion, was excellent, but he buried it in a thick sludge aided and abetted by the BPO and DG.
> >
> > Ray Hall, Taree
>
> Maybe you're referring to a post of mine.
> The story I've heard however was that Karajan's recording team (Karajan and his technical staff, engineers included) had the 'philosophy' that his (Karajan's) recordings should have to sound good on a kitchen table portable radio. And that was the sound they delivered.
>
> Nevertheless ... some of his recordings do sound somewhat better than that (by mistake?)

I've always owned good sound equipment, and have seldom if ever had any beef with HvK/DGG recordings. Obviously I haven't heard every one, but I own quite a few. I have observed that the severest criticisms seem to come from people who don't get into concert halls all that often. To me, Karajan is the conductor whose great gift to orchestral playing was to get the woodwind to play properly in tune with one another!
Herman
2017-07-21 09:19:02 UTC
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On Wednesday, March 1, 2017 at 2:05:23 AM UTC+1, Terry wrote:

> To me, Karajan is the conductor whose great gift to orchestral playing was to get the woodwind to play properly in tune with one another!

You mean, that never happened before?
Terry
2017-07-22 01:36:25 UTC
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On Friday, July 21, 2017 at 7:19:06 PM UTC+10, Herman wrote:
> On Wednesday, March 1, 2017 at 2:05:23 AM UTC+1, Terry wrote:
>
> > To me, Karajan is the conductor whose great gift to orchestral playing was to get the woodwind to play properly in tune with one another!
>
> You mean, that never happened before?

Yep.
Herman
2017-07-22 10:16:22 UTC
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On Saturday, July 22, 2017 at 3:36:29 AM UTC+2, Terry wrote:
> On Friday, July 21, 2017 at 7:19:06 PM UTC+10, Herman wrote:
> > On Wednesday, March 1, 2017 at 2:05:23 AM UTC+1, Terry wrote:
> >
> > > To me, Karajan is the conductor whose great gift to orchestral playing was to get the woodwind to play properly in tune with one another!
> >
> > You mean, that never happened before?
>
> Yep.

Well, I guess that makes sense. RMCR also hosts people who claim they have yet to hear a recording with a piano that is not out of tune.
Terry
2017-07-22 14:37:49 UTC
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On Saturday, July 22, 2017 at 8:16:26 PM UTC+10, Herman wrote:
> On Saturday, July 22, 2017 at 3:36:29 AM UTC+2, Terry wrote:
> > On Friday, July 21, 2017 at 7:19:06 PM UTC+10, Herman wrote:
> > > On Wednesday, March 1, 2017 at 2:05:23 AM UTC+1, Terry wrote:
> > >
> > > > To me, Karajan is the conductor whose great gift to orchestral playing was to get the woodwind to play properly in tune with one another!
> > >
> > > You mean, that never happened before?
> >
> > Yep.
>
> Well, I guess that makes sense. RMCR also hosts people who claim they have yet to hear a recording with a piano that is not out of tune.

It's all to do with temperament.
AB
2018-08-18 17:03:56 UTC
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On Saturday, July 22, 2017 at 6:16:26 AM UTC-4, Herman wrote:
> On Saturday, July 22, 2017 at 3:36:29 AM UTC+2, Terry wrote:
> > On Friday, July 21, 2017 at 7:19:06 PM UTC+10, Herman wrote:
> > > On Wednesday, March 1, 2017 at 2:05:23 AM UTC+1, Terry wrote:
> > >
> > > > To me, Karajan is the conductor whose great gift to orchestral playing was to get the woodwind to play properly in tune with one another!
> > >
> > > You mean, that never happened before?
> >
> > Yep.
>
> Well, I guess that makes sense. RMCR also hosts people who claim they have yet to hear a recording with a piano that is not out of tune.

Herman,
would you please name one of these awful people:-))) Their comments destroy the serenity of RMCR!

AB
O
2018-08-19 21:06:35 UTC
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In article <4cb0b4f7-ba17-48e8-a739-***@googlegroups.com>, AB
<***@verizon.net> wrote:

> On Saturday, July 22, 2017 at 6:16:26 AM UTC-4, Herman wrote:
> > On Saturday, July 22, 2017 at 3:36:29 AM UTC+2, Terry wrote:
> > > On Friday, July 21, 2017 at 7:19:06 PM UTC+10, Herman wrote:
> > > > On Wednesday, March 1, 2017 at 2:05:23 AM UTC+1, Terry wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > To me, Karajan is the conductor whose great gift to orchestral
> > > > > playing was to get the woodwind to play properly in tune with one
> > > > > another!
> > > >
> > > > You mean, that never happened before?
> > >
> > > Yep.
> >
> > Well, I guess that makes sense. RMCR also hosts people who claim they have
> > yet to hear a recording with a piano that is not out of tune.
>
> Herman,
> would you please name one of these awful people:-))) Their comments destroy the serenity of RMCR!

We are sworn to secrecy. Mum's the word! I've got a Secret!

-Owen, "Lettuce leave, Celery?"
h***@gmail.com
2017-07-20 22:49:20 UTC
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On Sunday, August 25, 2002 at 3:28:52 PM UTC+10, PJanssen0903 wrote:
> I was wondering what is the opinion of all collectors on a performance that
> best captures Herbert von Karajan's "sound." I have here, as an example that
> does not please me, the "Pagliacci" of DG Originals. Even though there is a lot
> of energy in the playing that you can hear right from the opening fanfares, I
> hear a hard, "plastic" sound in the recording. There is not any depth to it. It
> sounds like these people are playing on very shrill toy instruments, even
> though with a lot of virtuosity. This is made by Deutsche Grammophon of the
> nineteen sixties.
>
> People who heard HvK in concert, especially with the BPO, talk of remembering a
> very warm full sound, and that is not what I hear that the engineer has
> preserved on this recording. So I am curious whether any of the hundreds of HvK
> recordings, on DG and EMI, can offer sound that is any more than "adequate" and
> sounds as the so called Karajan sound was experienced live. I hope that can be
> understood.

The Heldenleben on Testament 1980's festival hall concert is according to those who heard him live as good as it gets in terms of Balance, Sibelius Pelleas suite on DG is vivid but my favourite is the Mazeppa on analogue. It's rich and it sizzles.
Alex Brown
2017-07-21 08:10:33 UTC
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On 20/07/2017 23:49, ***@gmail.com wrote:
> On Sunday, August 25, 2002 at 3:28:52 PM UTC+10, PJanssen0903 wrote:
>> I was wondering what is the opinion of all collectors on a performance that
>> best captures Herbert von Karajan's "sound." I have here, as an example that
>> does not please me, the "Pagliacci" of DG Originals. Even though there is a lot
>> of energy in the playing that you can hear right from the opening fanfares, I
>> hear a hard, "plastic" sound in the recording. There is not any depth to it. It
>> sounds like these people are playing on very shrill toy instruments, even
>> though with a lot of virtuosity. This is made by Deutsche Grammophon of the
>> nineteen sixties.
>>
>> People who heard HvK in concert, especially with the BPO, talk of remembering a
>> very warm full sound, and that is not what I hear that the engineer has
>> preserved on this recording. So I am curious whether any of the hundreds of HvK
>> recordings, on DG and EMI, can offer sound that is any more than "adequate" and
>> sounds as the so called Karajan sound was experienced live. I hope that can be
>> understood.
>
> The Heldenleben on Testament 1980's festival hall concert is according to those who heard him live as good as it gets in terms of Balance, Sibelius Pelleas suite on DG is vivid but my favourite is the Mazeppa on analogue. It's rich and it sizzles.
>

To my eternal regret, when this concert happened I was a teenager newly
enthusiastic about classical music. A friend at school mentioned his
father had a spare ticket - was I interested? Since I didn't know
anything about Richard Strauss (or who "Karajan" was), I declined.

--
- Alex Brown
g***@gmail.com
2018-01-06 05:04:31 UTC
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On Saturday, August 24, 2002 at 7:28:52 PM UTC-10, PJanssen0903 wrote:
> I was wondering what is the opinion of all collectors on a performance that
> best captures Herbert von Karajan's "sound." I have here, as an example that
> does not please me, the "Pagliacci" of DG Originals. Even though there is a lot
> of energy in the playing that you can hear right from the opening fanfares, I
> hear a hard, "plastic" sound in the recording. There is not any depth to it. It
> sounds like these people are playing on very shrill toy instruments, even
> though with a lot of virtuosity. This is made by Deutsche Grammophon of the
> nineteen sixties.
>
> People who heard HvK in concert, especially with the BPO, talk of remembering a
> very warm full sound, and that is not what I hear that the engineer has
> preserved on this recording. So I am curious whether any of the hundreds of HvK
> recordings, on DG and EMI, can offer sound that is any more than "adequate" and
> sounds as the so called Karajan sound was experienced live. I hope that can be
> understood.

According to the following recent book:

- ...Karajan's "sound"...was amorphous and darkly glowing.

https://www.google.com/search?tbm=bks&hl=en&q=%22amorphous+and+darkly+glowing%22+karajan%27s+sound
g***@gmail.com
2018-02-06 20:16:49 UTC
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On Saturday, August 24, 2002 at 7:28:52 PM UTC-10, PJanssen0903 wrote:
> I was wondering what is the opinion of all collectors on a performance that
> best captures Herbert von Karajan's "sound." I have here, as an example that
> does not please me, the "Pagliacci" of DG Originals. Even though there is a lot
> of energy in the playing that you can hear right from the opening fanfares, I
> hear a hard, "plastic" sound in the recording. There is not any depth to it. It
> sounds like these people are playing on very shrill toy instruments, even
> though with a lot of virtuosity. This is made by Deutsche Grammophon of the
> nineteen sixties.
>
> People who heard HvK in concert, especially with the BPO, talk of remembering a
> very warm full sound, and that is not what I hear that the engineer has
> preserved on this recording. So I am curious whether any of the hundreds of HvK
> recordings, on DG and EMI, can offer sound that is any more than "adequate" and
> sounds as the so called Karajan sound was experienced live. I hope that can be
> understood.

Concerning his 1980 Parsifal:

- Karajan concentrated on the beauty of this music, at the expense of the drama.

www.google.com/url?q=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.monsalvat.no%2Fdiscogra.htm&sa=D&sntz=1&usg=AFQjCNEhYdBFZa3sg9wsXsnKVsznoEbzBA
g***@gmail.com
2018-04-20 04:55:24 UTC
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On Saturday, August 24, 2002 at 7:28:52 PM UTC-10, PJanssen0903 wrote:
> I was wondering what is the opinion of all collectors on a performance that
> best captures Herbert von Karajan's "sound." I have here, as an example that
> does not please me, the "Pagliacci" of DG Originals. Even though there is a lot
> of energy in the playing that you can hear right from the opening fanfares, I
> hear a hard, "plastic" sound in the recording. There is not any depth to it. It
> sounds like these people are playing on very shrill toy instruments, even
> though with a lot of virtuosity. This is made by Deutsche Grammophon of the
> nineteen sixties.
>
> People who heard HvK in concert, especially with the BPO, talk of remembering a
> very warm full sound, and that is not what I hear that the engineer has
> preserved on this recording. So I am curious whether any of the hundreds of HvK
> recordings, on DG and EMI, can offer sound that is any more than "adequate" and
> sounds as the so called Karajan sound was experienced live. I hope that can be
> understood.

According to this:

- ...{he] had not yet developed his penchant for textural refinement above all else.

https://www.classicstoday.com/review/historic-karajan-primordial-sound/
g***@gmail.com
2018-08-18 04:58:34 UTC
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On Saturday, August 24, 2002 at 7:28:52 PM UTC-10, PJanssen0903 wrote:
> I was wondering what is the opinion of all collectors on a performance that
> best captures Herbert von Karajan's "sound." I have here, as an example that
> does not please me, the "Pagliacci" of DG Originals. Even though there is a lot
> of energy in the playing that you can hear right from the opening fanfares, I
> hear a hard, "plastic" sound in the recording. There is not any depth to it. It
> sounds like these people are playing on very shrill toy instruments, even
> though with a lot of virtuosity. This is made by Deutsche Grammophon of the
> nineteen sixties.
>
> People who heard HvK in concert, especially with the BPO, talk of remembering a
> very warm full sound, and that is not what I hear that the engineer has
> preserved on this recording. So I am curious whether any of the hundreds of HvK
> recordings, on DG and EMI, can offer sound that is any more than "adequate" and
> sounds as the so called Karajan sound was experienced live. I hope that can be
> understood.

According to the following:

- ...Many came to regard him as at best objective and at worst mechanical and superficial.

http://www.classicalnotes.net/opera/pelleas.html
dk
2018-08-18 07:45:55 UTC
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On Saturday, August 18, 2018 at 12:58:37 PM UTC+8, ***@gmail.com wrote:
> On Saturday, August 24, 2002 at 7:28:52 PM UTC-10, PJanssen0903 wrote:
> > I was wondering what is the opinion of all collectors on a performance that
> > best captures Herbert von Karajan's "sound." I have here, as an example that
> > does not please me, the "Pagliacci" of DG Originals. Even though there is a lot
> > of energy in the playing that you can hear right from the opening fanfares, I
> > hear a hard, "plastic" sound in the recording. There is not any depth to it. It
> > sounds like these people are playing on very shrill toy instruments, even
> > though with a lot of virtuosity. This is made by Deutsche Grammophon of the
> > nineteen sixties.
> >
> > People who heard HvK in concert, especially with the BPO, talk of remembering a
> > very warm full sound, and that is not what I hear that the engineer has
> > preserved on this recording. So I am curious whether any of the hundreds of HvK
> > recordings, on DG and EMI, can offer sound that is any more than "adequate" and
> > sounds as the so called Karajan sound was experienced live. I hope that can be
> > understood.
>
> According to the following:
>
> - ...Many came to regard him as at best objective and at worst mechanical and superficial.
>
> http://www.classicalnotes.net/opera/pelleas.html

Just like the quote bot! ;-)

dk
Herman
2018-08-18 09:05:48 UTC
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please don't interrupt the quote bot quoting to himself.
O
2018-08-18 15:22:08 UTC
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In article <7f4a87b0-20c1-45ad-b2be-***@googlegroups.com>,
Herman <***@yahoo.com> wrote:

> please don't interrupt the quote bot quoting to himself.

that could be an infinite recursion!

-Owen
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