Discussion:
A world-class musician says she makes 75% of what her male counterparts make. Now she is suing
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MIFrost
2018-07-07 00:35:10 UTC
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https://www.cnn.com/2018/07/06/us/flutist-equal-pay-lawsuit/index.html

Not sure how I feel about this, as a Milton Friedman-type-libertarian. I don't feel the government has a role to play in wage negotiations. Nevertheless I sympathize with her. Of course, she's free to look elsewhere for a higher salary. I don't believe anyone should be compelled to pay her what she wants just because someone is being paid more than she is. It's a tough call.

MIFrost
Bozo
2018-07-25 13:42:30 UTC
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The more things change.... ?

https://www.wqxr.org/story/trombonist-got-job-munich-philharmonic-then-she-fought-them-court-13-years
Ricardo Jimenez
2018-07-25 14:26:56 UTC
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On Wed, 25 Jul 2018 06:42:30 -0700 (PDT), Bozo <***@gmail.com>
wrote:

>The more things change.... ?
>
>https://www.wqxr.org/story/trombonist-got-job-munich-philharmonic-then-she-fought-them-court-13-years

I have a vague recollection of a story about the NY Philharmonic. A
long time ago, the question of hiring a black musician came up. Those
in favor were denounced as Communists by those against.
Frank Berger
2018-07-25 14:34:18 UTC
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On 7/25/2018 10:26 AM, Ricardo Jimenez wrote:
> On Wed, 25 Jul 2018 06:42:30 -0700 (PDT), Bozo <***@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> The more things change.... ?
>>
>> https://www.wqxr.org/story/trombonist-got-job-munich-philharmonic-then-she-fought-them-court-13-years
>
> I have a vague recollection of a story about the NY Philharmonic. A
> long time ago, the question of hiring a black musician came up. Those
> in favor were denounced as Communists by those against.
>

I can imagine my economics professors (one in particular) arguing that
management of non-profit institutions are freer to exercise their
personal biases in making operating decisions than management of
profit-seeking ones, the latter having a bottom line that must be
considered. Note I said freer, not totally free, or very free. I don't
know what orchestra boards try to maximize in lieu of profits: the
endowment, attendance? some mix of the two?

As an aside, do we know generally whether oboists make more or less than
trombonists?
m***@gmail.com
2018-07-25 15:31:09 UTC
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On Wednesday, July 25, 2018 at 9:34:21 AM UTC-5, Frank Berger wrote:
> On 7/25/2018 10:26 AM, Ricardo Jimenez wrote:
> > On Wed, 25 Jul 2018 06:42:30 -0700 (PDT),
> > wrote:
> >

> >
>
> I can imagine my economics professors (one in particular) arguing that
> management of non-profit institutions are freer to exercise their
> personal biases in making operating decisions than management of
> profit-seeking ones, the latter having a bottom line that must be
> considered. Note I said freer, not totally free, or very free. I don't
> know what orchestra boards try to maximize in lieu of profits: the
> endowment, attendance? some mix of the two?
>
> As an aside, do we know generally whether oboists make more or less than
> trombonists?


Trombonists are on a sliding scale.

Mark
O
2018-07-25 16:53:49 UTC
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In article <40d05232-1abd-4a9e-a0b6-***@googlegroups.com>,
<***@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Wednesday, July 25, 2018 at 9:34:21 AM UTC-5, Frank Berger wrote:
> > On 7/25/2018 10:26 AM, Ricardo Jimenez wrote:
> > > On Wed, 25 Jul 2018 06:42:30 -0700 (PDT),
> > > wrote:
> > >
>
> > >
> >
> > I can imagine my economics professors (one in particular) arguing that
> > management of non-profit institutions are freer to exercise their
> > personal biases in making operating decisions than management of
> > profit-seeking ones, the latter having a bottom line that must be
> > considered. Note I said freer, not totally free, or very free. I don't
> > know what orchestra boards try to maximize in lieu of profits: the
> > endowment, attendance? some mix of the two?
> >
> > As an aside, do we know generally whether oboists make more or less than
> > trombonists?
>
>
> Trombonists are on a sliding scale.

Nice one, Mark!

-Owen
Frank Berger
2018-07-26 00:47:36 UTC
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On 7/25/2018 11:31 AM, ***@gmail.com wrote:
> On Wednesday, July 25, 2018 at 9:34:21 AM UTC-5, Frank Berger wrote:
>> On 7/25/2018 10:26 AM, Ricardo Jimenez wrote:
>>> On Wed, 25 Jul 2018 06:42:30 -0700 (PDT),
>>> wrote:
>>>
>
>>>
>>
>> I can imagine my economics professors (one in particular) arguing that
>> management of non-profit institutions are freer to exercise their
>> personal biases in making operating decisions than management of
>> profit-seeking ones, the latter having a bottom line that must be
>> considered. Note I said freer, not totally free, or very free. I don't
>> know what orchestra boards try to maximize in lieu of profits: the
>> endowment, attendance? some mix of the two?
>>
>> As an aside, do we know generally whether oboists make more or less than
>> trombonists?
>
>
> Trombonists are on a sliding scale.
>
> Mark
>

LOL.
m***@gmail.com
2018-07-26 04:20:08 UTC
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> >
> >>
> >> I can imagine my economics professors (one in particular) arguing that
> >> management of non-profit institutions are freer to exercise their
> >> personal biases in making operating decisions than management of
> >> profit-seeking ones, the latter having a bottom line that must be
> >> considered. Note I said freer, not totally free, or very free. I don't
> >> know what orchestra boards try to maximize in lieu of profits: the
> >> endowment, attendance? some mix of the two?
> >>
> >> As an aside, do we know generally whether oboists make more or less than
> >> trombonists?
> >
> >
> > Trombonists are on a sliding scale.
> >
> > Mark
> >
>
> LOL.

I'm glad it made you laugh, Frank. It was too damn hot in Dallas (108 degrees) to cook a few days ago, so we got Chinese take-out. My fortune cookie insert read "Share your abundant humor with others at this time. They need it." So I'm trying to do that when the opportunity presents itself. Lord knows we need to laugh more in this country these days. We miss you, Victor Borge!

Mark
Frank Berger
2018-07-26 05:35:14 UTC
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On 7/26/2018 12:20 AM, ***@gmail.com wrote:
>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> I can imagine my economics professors (one in particular) arguing that
>>>> management of non-profit institutions are freer to exercise their
>>>> personal biases in making operating decisions than management of
>>>> profit-seeking ones, the latter having a bottom line that must be
>>>> considered. Note I said freer, not totally free, or very free. I don't
>>>> know what orchestra boards try to maximize in lieu of profits: the
>>>> endowment, attendance? some mix of the two?
>>>>
>>>> As an aside, do we know generally whether oboists make more or less than
>>>> trombonists?
>>>
>>>
>>> Trombonists are on a sliding scale.
>>>
>>> Mark
>>>
>>
>> LOL.
>
> I'm glad it made you laugh, Frank. It was too damn hot in Dallas (108 degrees) to cook a few days ago, so we got Chinese take-out. My fortune cookie insert read "Share your abundant humor with others at this time. They need it." So I'm trying to do that when the opportunity presents itself. Lord knows we need to laugh more in this country these days. We miss you, Victor Borge!
>
> Mark
>

I lived in Dallas for 30 years. There was a lot to like, but the May to
September heat was not one of them. I like the weather in Baltimore
better, though this rain we're having is ridiculous.
MIFrost
2018-07-25 19:17:42 UTC
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On Wednesday, July 25, 2018 at 10:27:04 AM UTC-4, Ricardo Jimenez wrote:
> On Wed, 25 Jul 2018 06:42:30 -0700 (PDT), Bozo <***@gmail.com>
> wrote:

>
> I have a vague recollection of a story about the NY Philharmonic. A
> long time ago, the question of hiring a black musician came up. Those
> in favor were denounced as Communists by those against.

Last week on television TCM (Turner Classic Movies) showed several Young People's Concert programs of Leonard Bernstein and the NYP. All men and all white. Every last one of them.

MIFrost
Bozo
2018-07-25 20:45:48 UTC
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>On Wednesday, July 25, 2018 at 2:17:44 PM UTC-5, MIFrost wrote:
> Last week on television TCM (Turner Classic Movies) showed several Young People's Concert programs of >Leonard Bernstein and the NYP. All men and all white. Every last one of them.

Yes, but on one programme he did feature 3 different young girls playing Mozart K.488 PC, and Andre Watts ( per LB , " a Persian prince" )in Liszt # 1 PC.
Frank Berger
2018-07-26 00:54:57 UTC
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On 7/25/2018 3:17 PM, MIFrost wrote:
> On Wednesday, July 25, 2018 at 10:27:04 AM UTC-4, Ricardo Jimenez wrote:
>> On Wed, 25 Jul 2018 06:42:30 -0700 (PDT), Bozo <***@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>
>>
>> I have a vague recollection of a story about the NY Philharmonic. A
>> long time ago, the question of hiring a black musician came up. Those
>> in favor were denounced as Communists by those against.
>
> Last week on television TCM (Turner Classic Movies) showed several Young People's Concert programs of Leonard Bernstein and the NYP. All men and all white. Every last one of them.
>
> MIFrost
>

Are we still allowed to watch such a thing? They broadcast several
Omnibus episodes featuring Bernstein teaching which I recorded. I've
only watched one, "The World ofJazz." It was very informative and
entertaining. Bernstein was a gifted teacher.
MIFrost
2018-07-26 01:05:53 UTC
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On Wednesday, July 25, 2018 at 8:54:59 PM UTC-4, Frank Berger wrote:
>
> Are we still allowed to watch such a thing? They broadcast several
> Omnibus episodes featuring Bernstein teaching which I recorded. I've
> only watched one, "The World ofJazz." It was very informative and
> entertaining. Bernstein was a gifted teacher.

"The World of Jazz" and none, I mean *none* of the musicians were black. Well, one singer was. I found it sort of surreal.

MIFrost
Frank Berger
2018-07-26 01:38:30 UTC
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On 7/25/2018 9:05 PM, MIFrost wrote:
> On Wednesday, July 25, 2018 at 8:54:59 PM UTC-4, Frank Berger wrote:
>>
>> Are we still allowed to watch such a thing? They broadcast several
>> Omnibus episodes featuring Bernstein teaching which I recorded. I've
>> only watched one, "The World ofJazz." It was very informative and
>> entertaining. Bernstein was a gifted teacher.
>
> "The World of Jazz" and none, I mean *none* of the musicians were black. Well, one singer was. I found it sort of surreal.
>
> MIFrost
>

I'm sorry enjoyed it anyway. I will self-flagellate.
Al Eisner
2018-08-02 22:03:50 UTC
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On Wed, 25 Jul 2018, MIFrost wrote:

> On Wednesday, July 25, 2018 at 10:27:04 AM UTC-4, Ricardo Jimenez wrote:
>> On Wed, 25 Jul 2018 06:42:30 -0700 (PDT), Bozo <***@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>
>>
>> I have a vague recollection of a story about the NY Philharmonic. A
>> long time ago, the question of hiring a black musician came up. Those
>> in favor were denounced as Communists by those against.
>
> Last week on television TCM (Turner Classic Movies) showed several Young People's Concert programs of Leonard Bernstein and the NYP. All men and all white. Every last one of them.
>
> MIFrost

Actually, they were rebroadcast of "Omnibus" episodes (Alastair Cooke's
series from the 1950's). I also noticed that he several times referred
to "the men in my orchestra" or equivalent. As to content, I found
some of it overly simplistic - especially the case for the talk on
musical comedy; the talk on conducting seemed better, albeit rather
self-serving. (I didn't see the jazz episode.)
--
Al Eisner
Bozo
2018-08-03 13:36:03 UTC
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Are endorsement deals "evenly " distributed ? Do Hillary Hahn, Yuja Wang and Martha Argerich have any ?

https://www.wqxr.org/story/brahms-classical-musicians-sponsorship-deals
Frank Berger
2018-08-03 14:33:03 UTC
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On 8/3/2018 9:36 AM, Bozo wrote:
> Are endorsement deals "evenly " distributed ? Do Hillary Hahn, Yuja Wang and Martha Argerich have any ?
>
> https://www.wqxr.org/story/brahms-classical-musicians-sponsorship-deals
>

What would our not knowing the answer to this question suggest?
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