Discussion:
Claudio Arrau gay?
(too old to reply)
Gabriel Parra
2007-07-04 06:09:36 UTC
Permalink
Especially to Tom Deacon but others may pipe in: was Claudio Arrau
gay? I know he was married and sired three children, but apparently
he, like, Horowitz and Richter, was a closeted homosexual. In fact, I
found a website that lists supposedly gay celebrities and famous
people as a "confirmed" homosexual. Any reliable sources who can vouch
for that?
John Oster
2007-07-04 06:20:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gabriel Parra
Especially to Tom Deacon but others may pipe in: was Claudio Arrau
gay? I know he was married and sired three children, but apparently
he, like, Horowitz and Richter, was a closeted homosexual. In fact, I
found a website that lists supposedly gay celebrities and famous
people as a "confirmed" homosexual. Any reliable sources who can vouch
for that?
No, but what possible difference could it make?
Gabriel Parra
2007-07-04 06:24:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Oster
Post by Gabriel Parra
Especially to Tom Deacon but others may pipe in: was Claudio Arrau
gay? I know he was married and sired three children, but apparently
he, like, Horowitz and Richter, was a closeted homosexual. In fact, I
found a website that lists supposedly gay celebrities and famous
people as a "confirmed" homosexual. Any reliable sources who can vouch
for that?
No, but what possible difference could it make?
What possible difference could it make if you listen to, say, Mahler
or Beethoven on any given hour of any given day? We enjoy for the sake
of enjoyment, and sometimes we seek information merely for the sake of
being informed.
Frank Berger
2007-07-04 06:27:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gabriel Parra
Post by John Oster
Post by Gabriel Parra
Especially to Tom Deacon but others may pipe in: was Claudio Arrau
gay? I know he was married and sired three children, but apparently
he, like, Horowitz and Richter, was a closeted homosexual. In fact, I
found a website that lists supposedly gay celebrities and famous
people as a "confirmed" homosexual. Any reliable sources who can vouch
for that?
No, but what possible difference could it make?
What possible difference could it make if you listen to, say, Mahler
or Beethoven on any given hour of any given day? We enjoy for the sake
of enjoyment, and sometimes we seek information merely for the sake of
being informed.
Are you gay?
Andrew T. Kay
2007-07-04 07:23:19 UTC
Permalink
The answer can be found here!



Actually, it cannot at all -- it's Arrau and Muti rehearsing the
Beethoven G-major with the Philadelphians. Just trying to move the
discussion along. This appears to be from the early 1980s, judging by
their respective appearances. I had read elsewhere that Muti's English
was extremely limited in this period, but that must have been an
overstatement; his comments here suggest reasonable fluency.

Todd K
Proboscis
2007-07-04 07:50:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Frank Berger
Post by Gabriel Parra
Post by John Oster
Post by Gabriel Parra
Especially to Tom Deacon but others may pipe in: was Claudio Arrau
gay? I know he was married and sired three children, but apparently
he, like, Horowitz and Richter, was a closeted homosexual. In fact, I
found a website that lists supposedly gay celebrities and famous
people as a "confirmed" homosexual. Any reliable sources who can vouch
for that?
No, but what possible difference could it make?
What possible difference could it make if you listen to, say, Mahler
or Beethoven on any given hour of any given day? We enjoy for the sake
of enjoyment, and sometimes we seek information merely for the sake of
being informed.
Are you gay?
Gay and necrophiliac?
Sacqueboutier
2007-07-04 12:21:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Frank Berger
Post by Gabriel Parra
Post by John Oster
Post by Gabriel Parra
Especially to Tom Deacon but others may pipe in: was Claudio Arrau
gay? I know he was married and sired three children, but apparently
he, like, Horowitz and Richter, was a closeted homosexual. In fact, I
found a website that lists supposedly gay celebrities and famous
people as a "confirmed" homosexual. Any reliable sources who can vouch
for that?
No, but what possible difference could it make?
What possible difference could it make if you listen to, say, Mahler
or Beethoven on any given hour of any given day? We enjoy for the sake
of enjoyment, and sometimes we seek information merely for the sake of
being informed.
Are you gay?
Good question.
Just seeking information merely for the sake of
being informed, of course.
--
--
Kindest regards,
Don
Frank Berger
2007-07-04 15:37:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sacqueboutier
Post by Frank Berger
Post by Gabriel Parra
Post by John Oster
Post by Gabriel Parra
Especially to Tom Deacon but others may pipe in: was Claudio Arrau
gay? I know he was married and sired three children, but apparently
he, like, Horowitz and Richter, was a closeted homosexual. In fact, I
found a website that lists supposedly gay celebrities and famous
people as a "confirmed" homosexual. Any reliable sources who can vouch
for that?
No, but what possible difference could it make?
What possible difference could it make if you listen to, say, Mahler
or Beethoven on any given hour of any given day? We enjoy for the sake
of enjoyment, and sometimes we seek information merely for the sake of
being informed.
Are you gay?
Good question.
Just seeking information merely for the sake of
being informed, of course.
--
--
Kindest regards,
Don
I got a haircut yesterday from an apparently gay man. Should I like the
haircut?
Sacqueboutier
2007-07-04 12:20:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Oster
Post by Gabriel Parra
Especially to Tom Deacon but others may pipe in: was Claudio Arrau
gay? I know he was married and sired three children, but apparently
he, like, Horowitz and Richter, was a closeted homosexual. In fact, I
found a website that lists supposedly gay celebrities and famous
people as a "confirmed" homosexual. Any reliable sources who can vouch
for that?
No, but what possible difference could it make?
Agreed.

It wouldn't make any difference as to how I
like his playing. Not sure why you would ask.
--
--
Kindest regards,
Don
Tony Overington
2007-07-04 09:05:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gabriel Parra
Especially to Tom Deacon but others may pipe in: was Claudio Arrau
gay? I know he was married and sired three children, but apparently
he, like, Horowitz and Richter, was a closeted homosexual. In fact, I
found a website that lists supposedly gay celebrities and famous
people as a "confirmed" homosexual. Any reliable sources who can vouch
for that?
Who's not gay these days?
h***@yahoo.com
2007-07-04 09:09:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tony Overington
Post by Gabriel Parra
Especially to Tom Deacon but others may pipe in: was Claudio Arrau
gay? I know he was married and sired three children, but apparently
he, like, Horowitz and Richter, was a closeted homosexual. In fact, I
found a website that lists supposedly gay celebrities and famous
people as a "confirmed" homosexual. Any reliable sources who can vouch
for that?
Who's not gay these days?
Socrates was very gay. Steeped in gayness.

I cannot imagine Arrau playing a single note without being at least
50% gay.

Herman
Sacqueboutier
2007-07-04 12:22:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by h***@yahoo.com
Post by Tony Overington
Post by Gabriel Parra
Especially to Tom Deacon but others may pipe in: was Claudio Arrau
gay? I know he was married and sired three children, but apparently
he, like, Horowitz and Richter, was a closeted homosexual. In fact, I
found a website that lists supposedly gay celebrities and famous
people as a "confirmed" homosexual. Any reliable sources who can vouch
for that?
Who's not gay these days?
Socrates was very gay. Steeped in gayness.
I cannot imagine Arrau playing a single note without being at least
50% gay.
Herman
I know scores of very fine musicians who are not
gay. I also know scores of very fine musicians who
are. Once again, what difference does it make to
our discussions here?
--
--
Kindest regards,
Don
Proboscis
2007-07-05 01:49:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sacqueboutier
Post by h***@yahoo.com
Post by Tony Overington
Post by Gabriel Parra
Especially to Tom Deacon but others may pipe in: was Claudio Arrau
gay? I know he was married and sired three children, but apparently
he, like, Horowitz and Richter, was a closeted homosexual. In fact, I
found a website that lists supposedly gay celebrities and famous
people as a "confirmed" homosexual. Any reliable sources who can vouch
for that?
Who's not gay these days?
Socrates was very gay. Steeped in gayness.
I cannot imagine Arrau playing a single note without being at least
50% gay.
Herman
I know scores of very fine musicians who are not
gay.
How can you be sure? Maybe they just pretend...
Bob Harper
2007-07-04 15:26:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by h***@yahoo.com
Post by Tony Overington
Post by Gabriel Parra
Especially to Tom Deacon but others may pipe in: was Claudio Arrau
gay? I know he was married and sired three children, but apparently
he, like, Horowitz and Richter, was a closeted homosexual. In fact, I
found a website that lists supposedly gay celebrities and famous
people as a "confirmed" homosexual. Any reliable sources who can vouch
for that?
Who's not gay these days?
Socrates was very gay. Steeped in gayness.
I cannot imagine Arrau playing a single note without being at least
50% gay.
Herman
The last two responses seem to me to address the OP's question with all
the respect and seriousness it deserves. For crying out loud, next
someone will be saying that Furtwängler was homosexual, and that the
string of natural children he produced through his life were merely cover!

Bob Harper
Frank Berger
2007-07-04 15:53:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bob Harper
Post by h***@yahoo.com
Post by Tony Overington
Post by Gabriel Parra
Especially to Tom Deacon but others may pipe in: was Claudio Arrau
gay? I know he was married and sired three children, but apparently
he, like, Horowitz and Richter, was a closeted homosexual. In fact, I
found a website that lists supposedly gay celebrities and famous
people as a "confirmed" homosexual. Any reliable sources who can vouch
for that?
Who's not gay these days?
Socrates was very gay. Steeped in gayness.
I cannot imagine Arrau playing a single note without being at least
50% gay.
Herman
The last two responses seem to me to address the OP's question with all
the respect and seriousness it deserves. For crying out loud, next someone
will be saying that Furtwängler was homosexual, and that the string of
natural children he produced through his life were merely cover!
Bob Harper
Of course. It was the angst he suffered covering up his gayness that made
him a great conductor. Also, only a gay conductor would have helped the
expelled BPO Jewish musicians as he did.
Bob Harper
2007-07-04 17:13:56 UTC
Permalink
(snip)
Post by Frank Berger
Post by Bob Harper
The last two responses seem to me to address the OP's question with all
the respect and seriousness it deserves. For crying out loud, next someone
will be saying that Furtwängler was homosexual, and that the string of
natural children he produced through his life were merely cover!
Bob Harper
Of course. It was the angst he suffered covering up his gayness that made
him a great conductor. Also, only a gay conductor would have helped the
expelled BPO Jewish musicians as he did.
(slaps forehead) Of course! How could I have missed it? thanks for
straightening me out. Oops, no pun intended :)

Bob Harper
Proboscis
2007-07-05 01:57:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bob Harper
Post by h***@yahoo.com
Post by Tony Overington
Post by Gabriel Parra
Especially to Tom Deacon but others may pipe in: was Claudio Arrau
gay? I know he was married and sired three children, but apparently
he, like, Horowitz and Richter, was a closeted homosexual. In fact, I
found a website that lists supposedly gay celebrities and famous
people as a "confirmed" homosexual. Any reliable sources who can vouch
for that?
Who's not gay these days?
Socrates was very gay. Steeped in gayness.
I cannot imagine Arrau playing a single note without being at least
50% gay.
Herman
The last two responses seem to me to address the OP's question with all
the respect and seriousness it deserves. For crying out loud, next someone
will be saying that Furtwängler was homosexual, and that the string of
natural children he produced through his life were merely cover!
Maybe his wife had an affair with Claudio Arrau?
sechumlib
2007-07-04 12:45:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tony Overington
Who's not gay these days?
Are you kidding? With the political & world situations what they are,
who can even be borderline happy, let alone gay (in its old meaning)?
Allen
2007-07-04 14:13:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tony Overington
Post by Gabriel Parra
Especially to Tom Deacon but others may pipe in: was Claudio Arrau
gay? I know he was married and sired three children, but apparently
he, like, Horowitz and Richter, was a closeted homosexual. In fact, I
found a website that lists supposedly gay celebrities and famous
people as a "confirmed" homosexual. Any reliable sources who can vouch
for that?
Who's not gay these days?
I'm certainly not. However, I don't care who is or isn't. I've had
friends both straight, gay and in-between; I can say the same thing
about people I don't care for. It's no damn business of mine, nor do I
see any reason that it should be anyone else's. Caring about who is/who
isn't is usually the sign of a bigot peering through the darkness. I
also don't care if a person is tall or short, fat or lean, blue-eyed,
brown-eyed, green-eyed, or two different-colored eyes. People are what
their genes make them--no more, no less. Get a life--your own, that is.
Allen
Bob Harper
2007-07-04 15:29:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Allen
Post by Tony Overington
Post by Gabriel Parra
Especially to Tom Deacon but others may pipe in: was Claudio Arrau
gay? I know he was married and sired three children, but apparently
he, like, Horowitz and Richter, was a closeted homosexual. In fact, I
found a website that lists supposedly gay celebrities and famous
people as a "confirmed" homosexual. Any reliable sources who can vouch
for that?
Who's not gay these days?
I'm certainly not. However, I don't care who is or isn't. I've had
friends both straight, gay and in-between; I can say the same thing
about people I don't care for. It's no damn business of mine, nor do I
see any reason that it should be anyone else's. Caring about who is/who
isn't is usually the sign of a bigot peering through the darkness. I
also don't care if a person is tall or short, fat or lean, blue-eyed,
brown-eyed, green-eyed, or two different-colored eyes. People are what
their genes make them--no more, no less. Get a life--your own, that is.
Allen
Hear, hear!

Bob Harper
Richard Loeb
2007-07-04 18:41:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bob Harper
Post by Allen
Post by Tony Overington
Post by Gabriel Parra
Especially to Tom Deacon but others may pipe in: was Claudio Arrau
gay? I know he was married and sired three children, but apparently
he, like, Horowitz and Richter, was a closeted homosexual. In fact, I
found a website that lists supposedly gay celebrities and famous
people as a "confirmed" homosexual. Any reliable sources who can vouch
for that?
Who's not gay these days?
I'm certainly not. However, I don't care who is or isn't. I've had
friends both straight, gay and in-between; I can say the same thing about
people I don't care for. It's no damn business of mine, nor do I see any
reason that it should be anyone else's. Caring about who is/who isn't is
usually the sign of a bigot peering through the darkness. I also don't
care if a person is tall or short, fat or lean, blue-eyed, brown-eyed,
green-eyed, or two different-colored eyes. People are what their genes
make them--no more, no less. Get a life--your own, that is.
Allen
Hear, hear!
Bob Harper
You are giving the original poster (a real piece of work as a search of the
archives can verify) more than he deserves in the way of replies or
recognition. Richard
Bob Harper
2007-07-04 16:38:55 UTC
Permalink
Richard Loeb wrote:
(snip)
Post by Richard Loeb
You are giving the original poster (a real piece of work as a search of the
archives can verify) more than he deserves in the way of replies or
recognition. Richard
Perhaps, but Allen's post epitomized the appropriate response, IMO. My
reply considered only his words.

Bob Harper
Frank Berger
2007-07-04 15:45:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Allen
Post by Tony Overington
Post by Gabriel Parra
Especially to Tom Deacon but others may pipe in: was Claudio Arrau
gay? I know he was married and sired three children, but apparently
he, like, Horowitz and Richter, was a closeted homosexual. In fact, I
found a website that lists supposedly gay celebrities and famous
people as a "confirmed" homosexual. Any reliable sources who can vouch
for that?
Who's not gay these days?
I'm certainly not.
Such a great denial!
Post by Allen
However, I don't care who is or isn't. I've had friends both straight, gay
and in-between; I can say the same thing about people I don't care for.
It's no damn business of mine, nor do I see any reason that it should be
anyone else's. Caring about who is/who isn't is usually the sign of a
bigot peering through the darkness. I also don't care if a person is tall
or short, fat or lean, blue-eyed, brown-eyed, green-eyed, or two
different-colored eyes. People are what their genes make them--no more, no
less. Get a life--your own, that is.
Allen
As long as he's not a Republican.
Richard Schultz
2007-07-04 10:24:43 UTC
Permalink
In article <***@57g2000hsv.googlegroups.com>, Gabriel Parra <***@gmail.com> wrote:

: Especially to Tom Deacon but others may pipe in: was Claudio Arrau gay?

WADR, in what sense is the answer (a) any of your business and (b) relevant
to his achievements as a musician?

-----
Richard Schultz ***@mail.biu.ac.il
Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel
Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University
-----
"an optimist is a guy/ that has never had/ much experience"
td
2007-07-04 11:34:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gabriel Parra
Especially to Tom Deacon but others may pipe in: was Claudio Arrau
gay? I know he was married and sired three children, but apparently
he, like, Horowitz and Richter, was a closeted homosexual. In fact, I
found a website that lists supposedly gay celebrities and famous
people as a "confirmed" homosexual. Any reliable sources who can vouch
for that?
It is a fact that Claudio Arrau was once arrested in the middle of the
act of fellatio in a men's toilet in Australia.

What that proves is not very much, I think.

Moreover, the relevance of this fact, or any other aspects of Arrau's
personal life, to his music entirely escapes me.

TD
William Sommerwerck
2007-07-04 11:40:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gabriel Parra
Especially to Tom Deacon but others may pipe in: was Claudio
Arrau gay? I know he was married and sired three children, but
apparently he, like, Horowitz and Richter, was a closeted
homosexual. In fact, I found a website that lists supposedly gay
celebrities and famous people as a "confirmed" homosexual.
Any reliable sources who can vouch for that?
Many of these assertions are made based on rumor or what people would _like_
to think. They should be taken with a grain of salt. Tom Cruise has often
been pegged as gay, and he might very well be, but I suspect this rumor
derives from the fantasies of those who think he's good-looking. (My idea of
a handsome, sexy actor is George Hayes.)

We tend to judge performers' artistic lives apart from their private lives
(qv, our recent discussion of Frank Sinatra's thuggish behavior), as we
should; even public figures are entitled to _some_ privacy. The question of
whether a particular performer is homosexual is pertinent only in terms of
how it affects or informs their work. Cary Grant is a good example; it's
believed that his need to hide his sexuality helped make him a better actor.
*

On the other hand, the social and political context of someone's private
behavior -- particularly in an era when such behavior was condemned or even
illegal -- can't be ignored. It's unfortunate that Horowitz had to hide,
even to the extent of marrying and fathering a daughter who committed
suicide. "Outing" him after his death shouldn't alter our opinion about his
performances, but it's politically necessary.

I'd be disappointed to learn Senor Snooze was gay. You'd expect less-dull
performances from a gay pianist.

By the way, about 45 years ago I saw a photo of Leonard Bernstein lying
down, facing the camera, in some degree of undress (perhaps just his shirt
off) with his naked son on his back. I thought, "Only someone gay would feel
comfortable doing something like that."

* About 45 years ago he wrote a brief autobiography for one of the women's
magazines. He has the courage to confront the issue (if only indirectly)
when he rhetorically asked "Why do people talk of things of which they know
nothing?"

http://www.carygrant.net/autobiography/index.html
Phil Caron
2007-07-04 13:06:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by William Sommerwerck
I'd be disappointed to learn Senor Snooze was gay. You'd expect less-dull
performances from a gay pianist.
LOL - I would expect only certain gay people to find Arrau's indiosyncratic
and often flambouyant performances dull.

- Phil Caron
MrT
2007-07-04 13:13:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Phil Caron
Post by William Sommerwerck
I'd be disappointed to learn Senor Snooze was gay. You'd expect less-dull
performances from a gay pianist.
LOL - I would expect only certain gay people to find Arrau's indiosyncratic
and often flambouyant performances dull.
- Phil Caron
Like that concert performance of Brahms's Haendel Variations (on
Ermitage) that starts as if he's going to examine, clean and label
each key of the piano and slowly turns the performance into a
mesmerizing display of pianism of the highest order. It's hard to
pidgeonhole Arrau... you have to judge him one performance at a time.
He could go from Serious Snooze mode to mesmerizing in the very same
concert. If you remember the excruciating moments, he's a snooze, if
you remember the mesmerizing ones, he's a wizard. He's controversial
allright.

Best,

MrT
JohnGavin
2007-07-04 13:32:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by William Sommerwerck
Post by Gabriel Parra
Especially to Tom Deacon but others may pipe in: was Claudio
Arrau gay? I know he was married and sired three children, but
apparently he, like, Horowitz and Richter, was a closeted
homosexual. In fact, I found a website that lists supposedly gay
celebrities and famous people as a "confirmed" homosexual.
Any reliable sources who can vouch for that?
Many of these assertions are made based on rumor or what people would _like_
to think. They should be taken with a grain of salt. Tom Cruise has often
been pegged as gay, and he might very well be, but I suspect this rumor
derives from the fantasies of those who think he's good-looking.
Oh gosh. I think the rumors come from alot more grounds than his
supposed good looks! (I never got why girls go crazy over him). The
reason Cruise is a disaster in the making (IMO) is that he goes to
lengths to promote a completely false image of himself, even at the
expense of others' lives.
Richard Schultz
2007-07-04 14:23:43 UTC
Permalink
In article <OrmdnUBk2cG-***@comcast.com>, William Sommerwerck <***@comcast.net> wrote:

: Tom Cruise has often
: been pegged as gay, and he might very well be, but I suspect this rumor
: derives from the fantasies of those who think he's good-looking. (My idea of
: a handsome, sexy actor is George Hayes.)

Tom Cruise is an actor? That's news to me.

-----
Richard Schultz ***@mail.biu.ac.il
Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel
Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University
-----
"an optimist is a guy/ that has never had/ much experience"
JohnGavin
2007-07-04 14:32:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by William Sommerwerck
Post by Gabriel Parra
Especially to Tom Deacon but others may pipe in: was Claudio
Arrau gay? I know he was married and sired three children, but
apparently he, like, Horowitz and Richter, was a closeted
homosexual. In fact, I found a website that lists supposedly gay
celebrities and famous people as a "confirmed" homosexual.
Any reliable sources who can vouch for that?
Many of these assertions are made based on rumor or what people would _like_
to think. They should be taken with a grain of salt. Tom Cruise has often
been pegged as gay, and he might very well be, but I suspect this rumor
derives from the fantasies of those who think he's good-looking. (My idea of
a handsome, sexy actor is George Hayes.)
We tend to judge performers' artistic lives apart from their private lives
(qv, our recent discussion of Frank Sinatra's thuggish behavior), as we
should; even public figures are entitled to _some_ privacy. The question of
whether a particular performer is homosexual is pertinent only in terms of
how it affects or informs their work. Cary Grant is a good example; it's
believed that his need to hide his sexuality helped make him a better actor.
*
On the other hand, the social and political context of someone's private
behavior -- particularly in an era when such behavior was condemned or even
illegal -- can't be ignored. It's unfortunate that Horowitz had to hide,
even to the extent of marrying and fathering a daughter who committed
suicide. "Outing" him after his death shouldn't alter our opinion about his
performances, but it's politically necessary.
There is another problem that you fail to mention...Cary Grant married
several times and also had a daughter. The problem is that other
lives are affected. If a woman marries a man thinking he's straight,
and the man is actually partially using her as a cover, or as they say
a "beard", then the woman is misled and ultimately used (unless she
enters into the marriage knowing the situation). If the man seeks
other men after marrying, I'm sure you can see how it complicates
matters on several levels for both the wife and children.
Frank Berger
2007-07-04 15:48:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by JohnGavin
Post by William Sommerwerck
Post by Gabriel Parra
Especially to Tom Deacon but others may pipe in: was Claudio
Arrau gay? I know he was married and sired three children, but
apparently he, like, Horowitz and Richter, was a closeted
homosexual. In fact, I found a website that lists supposedly gay
celebrities and famous people as a "confirmed" homosexual.
Any reliable sources who can vouch for that?
Many of these assertions are made based on rumor or what people would _like_
to think. They should be taken with a grain of salt. Tom Cruise has often
been pegged as gay, and he might very well be, but I suspect this rumor
derives from the fantasies of those who think he's good-looking. (My idea of
a handsome, sexy actor is George Hayes.)
We tend to judge performers' artistic lives apart from their private lives
(qv, our recent discussion of Frank Sinatra's thuggish behavior), as we
should; even public figures are entitled to _some_ privacy. The question of
whether a particular performer is homosexual is pertinent only in terms of
how it affects or informs their work. Cary Grant is a good example; it's
believed that his need to hide his sexuality helped make him a better actor.
*
On the other hand, the social and political context of someone's private
behavior -- particularly in an era when such behavior was condemned or even
illegal -- can't be ignored. It's unfortunate that Horowitz had to hide,
even to the extent of marrying and fathering a daughter who committed
suicide. "Outing" him after his death shouldn't alter our opinion about his
performances, but it's politically necessary.
There is another problem that you fail to mention...Cary Grant married
several times and also had a daughter. The problem is that other
lives are affected. If a woman marries a man thinking he's straight,
and the man is actually partially using her as a cover, or as they say
a "beard", then the woman is misled and ultimately used (unless she
enters into the marriage knowing the situation). If the man seeks
other men after marrying, I'm sure you can see how it complicates
matters on several levels for both the wife and children.
The problem in this case is not that he is gay, but that he's a scoundrel.
Frank Berger
2007-07-04 15:51:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by William Sommerwerck
Post by Gabriel Parra
Especially to Tom Deacon but others may pipe in: was Claudio
Arrau gay? I know he was married and sired three children, but
apparently he, like, Horowitz and Richter, was a closeted
homosexual. In fact, I found a website that lists supposedly gay
celebrities and famous people as a "confirmed" homosexual.
Any reliable sources who can vouch for that?
Many of these assertions are made based on rumor or what people would _like_
to think. They should be taken with a grain of salt. Tom Cruise has often
been pegged as gay, and he might very well be, but I suspect this rumor
derives from the fantasies of those who think he's good-looking. (My idea of
a handsome, sexy actor is George Hayes.)
We tend to judge performers' artistic lives apart from their private lives
(qv, our recent discussion of Frank Sinatra's thuggish behavior), as we
should; even public figures are entitled to _some_ privacy. The question of
whether a particular performer is homosexual is pertinent only in terms of
how it affects or informs their work. Cary Grant is a good example; it's
believed that his need to hide his sexuality helped make him a better actor.
*
On the other hand, the social and political context of someone's private
behavior -- particularly in an era when such behavior was condemned or even
illegal -- can't be ignored. It's unfortunate that Horowitz had to hide,
even to the extent of marrying and fathering a daughter who committed
suicide.
Why was it necessary for his daughter to commit suicide?

"Outing" him after his death shouldn't alter our opinion about his
Post by William Sommerwerck
performances, but it's politically necessary.
I'd be disappointed to learn Senor Snooze was gay. You'd expect less-dull
performances from a gay pianist.
By the way, about 45 years ago I saw a photo of Leonard Bernstein lying
down, facing the camera, in some degree of undress (perhaps just his shirt
off) with his naked son on his back. I thought, "Only someone gay would feel
comfortable doing something like that."
I have exacrtly such a photo of myself with one of my daughters. I suppose
that means I'm gay. I never knew. Thanks for enlightening me. I can stop
pretending now.
Richard Schultz
2007-07-04 16:05:04 UTC
Permalink
In article <***@news.supernews.com>, Frank Berger <***@dal.frb.org> wrote:

: I have exacrtly such a photo of myself with one of my daughters. I suppose
: that means I'm gay. I never knew. Thanks for enlightening me. I can stop
: pretending now.

Actually, nowadays, the scare level is at a sufficiently high value that
pictures like that are sometimes taken as evidence of child abuse, which
is a good thing for you, since it is well-known that only heterosexual
men abuse children. There was a case about 10-12 years ago where a guy
was taking a photography class, and had an assignment to photograph things
from an unusual angle. He was photographing from underneath his glass
coffee table when his six-year-old daughter who, as I recall the story, had
just gotten out of the bath, asked if he would take a picture of her sitting
on the table. While *taking* the picture was probably a pretty stupid thing
to have done, his *printing* it has got to be among the most insanely dense
things ever done in the state of New Jersey.

-----
Richard Schultz ***@mail.biu.ac.il
Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel
Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University
-----
"an optimist is a guy/ that has never had/ much experience"
William Sommerwerck
2007-07-04 16:28:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Frank Berger
Post by William Sommerwerck
On the other hand, the social and political context of someone's
private behavior -- particularly in an era when such behavior was
condemned or even illegal -- can't be ignored. It's unfortunate that
Horowitz had to hide, even to the extent of marrying and fathering
a daughter who committed suicide.
Why was it necessary for his daughter to commit suicide?
It wasn't. But had Horowitz not married and had a daughter, "she" wouldn't
have had to go through the agony that caused her to commit suicide. The
problem (as I understand it) that she (also a pianist) couldn't handle
having a father who was better-known and more accomplished.
Post by Frank Berger
Post by William Sommerwerck
By the way, about 45 years ago I saw a photo of Leonard Bernstein
lying down, facing the camera, in some degree of undress (perhaps
just his shirt off) with his naked son on his back. I thought, "Only
someone gay would feel comfortable doing something like that."
I have exacrtly such a photo of myself with one of my daughters.
I suppose that means I'm gay. I never knew. Thanks for enlightening me.
I can stop pretending now.
Glad I helped. <grin>

I'd be cautious about whom I showed that photo to. There are loonies out
there who'll misinterpret it.
Frank Berger
2007-07-04 17:12:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by William Sommerwerck
Post by Frank Berger
Post by William Sommerwerck
On the other hand, the social and political context of someone's
private behavior -- particularly in an era when such behavior was
condemned or even illegal -- can't be ignored. It's unfortunate that
Horowitz had to hide, even to the extent of marrying and fathering
a daughter who committed suicide.
Why was it necessary for his daughter to commit suicide?
It wasn't. But had Horowitz not married and had a daughter, "she" wouldn't
have had to go through the agony that caused her to commit suicide. The
problem (as I understand it) that she (also a pianist) couldn't handle
having a father who was better-known and more accomplished.
So it had nothing to do with his being gay. And I suppose the only
conclusion to draw is that successful people should never have children.
William Sommerwerck
2007-07-04 19:01:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by William Sommerwerck
Post by Frank Berger
Post by William Sommerwerck
On the other hand, the social and political context of someone's
private behavior -- particularly in an era when such behavior was
condemned or even illegal -- can't be ignored. It's unfortunate that
Horowitz had to hide, even to the extent of marrying and fathering
a daughter who committed suicide.
Why was it necessary for his daughter to commit suicide?
It wasn't. But had Horowitz not married and had a daughter, "she"
wouldn't have had to go through the agony that caused her to commit
suicide. The problem (as I understand it) that she (also a pianist)
couldn't
Post by William Sommerwerck
handle having a father who was better-known and more accomplished.
So it had nothing to do with his being gay. And I suppose the only
conclusion to draw is that successful people should never have children.
You've got it backwards. If Horowitz hadn't felt (I assume) that he had to
marry to cover his sexuality, he wouldn't have brought someone into the
world who suffered and wound up killing herself.
Frank Berger
2007-07-04 19:56:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by William Sommerwerck
Post by William Sommerwerck
Post by Frank Berger
Post by William Sommerwerck
On the other hand, the social and political context of someone's
private behavior -- particularly in an era when such behavior was
condemned or even illegal -- can't be ignored. It's unfortunate that
Horowitz had to hide, even to the extent of marrying and fathering
a daughter who committed suicide.
Why was it necessary for his daughter to commit suicide?
It wasn't. But had Horowitz not married and had a daughter, "she"
wouldn't have had to go through the agony that caused her to commit
suicide. The problem (as I understand it) that she (also a pianist)
couldn't
Post by William Sommerwerck
handle having a father who was better-known and more accomplished.
So it had nothing to do with his being gay. And I suppose the only
conclusion to draw is that successful people should never have children.
You've got it backwards. If Horowitz hadn't felt (I assume) that he had to
marry to cover his sexuality, he wouldn't have brought someone into the
world who suffered and wound up killing herself.
How can you ASSUME anything? A five minute internet seach shows me that it
is inconclusive whether Sonia Horowitz even committed suicide, and zero
evidence that her troubled relationship with her father (which presumably
would have been a contributing factor if she *did* committ suicide) was
caused by his being homosexual.
JohnGavin
2007-07-04 20:13:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Frank Berger
Post by William Sommerwerck
Post by William Sommerwerck
Post by Frank Berger
Post by William Sommerwerck
On the other hand, the social and political context of someone's
private behavior -- particularly in an era when such behavior was
condemned or even illegal -- can't be ignored. It's unfortunate that
Horowitz had to hide, even to the extent of marrying and fathering
a daughter who committed suicide.
Why was it necessary for his daughter to commit suicide?
It wasn't. But had Horowitz not married and had a daughter, "she"
wouldn't have had to go through the agony that caused her to commit
suicide. The problem (as I understand it) that she (also a pianist)
couldn't
Post by William Sommerwerck
handle having a father who was better-known and more accomplished.
So it had nothing to do with his being gay. And I suppose the only
conclusion to draw is that successful people should never have children.
You've got it backwards. If Horowitz hadn't felt (I assume) that he had to
marry to cover his sexuality, he wouldn't have brought someone into the
world who suffered and wound up killing herself.
How can you ASSUME anything? A five minute internet seach shows me that it
is inconclusive whether Sonia Horowitz even committed suicide, and zero
evidence that her troubled relationship with her father (which presumably
would have been a contributing factor if she *did* committ suicide) was
caused by his being homosexual.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
I remember reading in one of the Horowitz bios that when his daughter
Sonia was alive, he would speak of her as being one of his many
accomplishments. None of his other accomplishments however developed
severe emotional problems, and posed situations that Vladimir was
unequipped to deal with. If memory serves, she drove a motorcycle
recklessly, and got into a near-fatal accident at one point. I don't
know about Mrs. Wanda, but the story is that VH gave her the cold
shoulder when she became a "problem".
Frank Berger
2007-07-04 20:37:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by JohnGavin
Post by Frank Berger
Post by William Sommerwerck
Post by William Sommerwerck
Post by Frank Berger
Post by William Sommerwerck
On the other hand, the social and political context of someone's
private behavior -- particularly in an era when such behavior was
condemned or even illegal -- can't be ignored. It's unfortunate that
Horowitz had to hide, even to the extent of marrying and fathering
a daughter who committed suicide.
Why was it necessary for his daughter to commit suicide?
It wasn't. But had Horowitz not married and had a daughter, "she"
wouldn't have had to go through the agony that caused her to commit
suicide. The problem (as I understand it) that she (also a pianist)
couldn't
Post by William Sommerwerck
handle having a father who was better-known and more accomplished.
So it had nothing to do with his being gay. And I suppose the only
conclusion to draw is that successful people should never have children.
You've got it backwards. If Horowitz hadn't felt (I assume) that he had to
marry to cover his sexuality, he wouldn't have brought someone into the
world who suffered and wound up killing herself.
How can you ASSUME anything? A five minute internet seach shows me that it
is inconclusive whether Sonia Horowitz even committed suicide, and zero
evidence that her troubled relationship with her father (which presumably
would have been a contributing factor if she *did* committ suicide) was
caused by his being homosexual.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
I remember reading in one of the Horowitz bios that when his daughter
Sonia was alive, he would speak of her as being one of his many
accomplishments. None of his other accomplishments however developed
severe emotional problems, and posed situations that Vladimir was
unequipped to deal with. If memory serves, she drove a motorcycle
recklessly, and got into a near-fatal accident at one point. I don't
know about Mrs. Wanda, but the story is that VH gave her the cold
shoulder when she became a "problem".
Which doesn't necessarily have anything to do with VH's sexual orientation
or anything else.
JohnGavin
2007-07-04 21:36:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Frank Berger
Post by JohnGavin
Post by Frank Berger
Post by William Sommerwerck
Post by William Sommerwerck
Post by Frank Berger
Post by William Sommerwerck
On the other hand, the social and political context of someone's
private behavior -- particularly in an era when such behavior was
condemned or even illegal -- can't be ignored. It's unfortunate that
Horowitz had to hide, even to the extent of marrying and fathering
a daughter who committed suicide.
Why was it necessary for his daughter to commit suicide?
It wasn't. But had Horowitz not married and had a daughter, "she"
wouldn't have had to go through the agony that caused her to commit
suicide. The problem (as I understand it) that she (also a pianist)
couldn't
Post by William Sommerwerck
handle having a father who was better-known and more accomplished.
So it had nothing to do with his being gay. And I suppose the only
conclusion to draw is that successful people should never have children.
You've got it backwards. If Horowitz hadn't felt (I assume) that he had to
marry to cover his sexuality, he wouldn't have brought someone into the
world who suffered and wound up killing herself.
How can you ASSUME anything? A five minute internet seach shows me that it
is inconclusive whether Sonia Horowitz even committed suicide, and zero
evidence that her troubled relationship with her father (which presumably
would have been a contributing factor if she *did* committ suicide) was
caused by his being homosexual.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
I remember reading in one of the Horowitz bios that when his daughter
Sonia was alive, he would speak of her as being one of his many
accomplishments. None of his other accomplishments however developed
severe emotional problems, and posed situations that Vladimir was
unequipped to deal with. If memory serves, she drove a motorcycle
recklessly, and got into a near-fatal accident at one point. I don't
know about Mrs. Wanda, but the story is that VH gave her the cold
shoulder when she became a "problem".
Which doesn't necessarily have anything to do with VH's sexual orientation
or anything else.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
It strongly suggests that when you marry and have a child as props,
you may not be prepared to deal with all the nuances, problems and set-
backs that family life brings with it.
Frank Berger
2007-07-04 22:40:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by JohnGavin
Post by Frank Berger
Post by JohnGavin
Post by Frank Berger
Post by William Sommerwerck
Post by William Sommerwerck
Post by Frank Berger
Post by William Sommerwerck
On the other hand, the social and political context of someone's
private behavior -- particularly in an era when such behavior was
condemned or even illegal -- can't be ignored. It's unfortunate that
Horowitz had to hide, even to the extent of marrying and fathering
a daughter who committed suicide.
Why was it necessary for his daughter to commit suicide?
It wasn't. But had Horowitz not married and had a daughter, "she"
wouldn't have had to go through the agony that caused her to commit
suicide. The problem (as I understand it) that she (also a pianist)
couldn't
Post by William Sommerwerck
handle having a father who was better-known and more accomplished.
So it had nothing to do with his being gay. And I suppose the only
conclusion to draw is that successful people should never have children.
You've got it backwards. If Horowitz hadn't felt (I assume) that he
had
to
marry to cover his sexuality, he wouldn't have brought someone into the
world who suffered and wound up killing herself.
How can you ASSUME anything? A five minute internet seach shows me
that
it
is inconclusive whether Sonia Horowitz even committed suicide, and zero
evidence that her troubled relationship with her father (which presumably
would have been a contributing factor if she *did* committ suicide) was
caused by his being homosexual.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
I remember reading in one of the Horowitz bios that when his daughter
Sonia was alive, he would speak of her as being one of his many
accomplishments. None of his other accomplishments however developed
severe emotional problems, and posed situations that Vladimir was
unequipped to deal with. If memory serves, she drove a motorcycle
recklessly, and got into a near-fatal accident at one point. I don't
know about Mrs. Wanda, but the story is that VH gave her the cold
shoulder when she became a "problem".
Which doesn't necessarily have anything to do with VH's sexual orientation
or anything else.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
It strongly suggests that when you marry and have a child as props,
you may not be prepared to deal with all the nuances, problems and set-
backs that family life brings with it.
But you don't know that this particular child was had as a prop. Why
couldn't a closeted gay man and his wife want a child for exactly the same
reasons as anyone else?
William Sommerwerck
2007-07-04 21:07:24 UTC
Permalink
How can you ASSUME anything? A five minute internet seach shows me that it
is inconclusive whether Sonia Horowitz even committed suicide, and zero
evidence that her troubled relationship with her father (which presumably
would have been a contributing factor if she *did* committ suicide) was
caused by his being homosexual.
Again, you're misreading. If Horowitz hadn't felt it necessary to hide his
homosexuality, he wouldn't have married and had a daughter who killed
herself -- for whatever reason. She wouldn't have lived, and she wouldn't
have suffered.
Frank Berger
2007-07-04 22:35:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by William Sommerwerck
How can you ASSUME anything? A five minute internet seach shows me that it
is inconclusive whether Sonia Horowitz even committed suicide, and zero
evidence that her troubled relationship with her father (which presumably
would have been a contributing factor if she *did* committ suicide) was
caused by his being homosexual.
Again, you're misreading. If Horowitz hadn't felt it necessary to hide his
homosexuality, he wouldn't have married and had a daughter who killed
herself -- for whatever reason. She wouldn't have lived, and she wouldn't
have suffered.
So freakin' what? Everbody who ever suffered wouldn't have had their
parents not produced them? What's the point of discussing this at all if
you're not attributing her suffering to VH's homosexuality. You simply have
no point to make.
Norman M. Schwartz
2007-07-05 00:06:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by William Sommerwerck
How can you ASSUME anything? A five minute internet seach shows me that it
is inconclusive whether Sonia Horowitz even committed suicide, and zero
evidence that her troubled relationship with her father (which presumably
would have been a contributing factor if she *did* committ suicide) was
caused by his being homosexual.
Again, you're misreading. If Horowitz hadn't felt it necessary to hide his
homosexuality, he wouldn't have married and had a daughter who killed
herself -- for whatever reason. She wouldn't have lived, and she wouldn't
have suffered.
Unless you have the DNA evidence, neither you nor anyone else knows that
_VH_ was actually her biological father. In fact maybe both the parents and
the daughter knew he was not her father and that's why she killed herself
(if any of this story has any merit).
Norman M. Schwartz
2007-07-05 00:30:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by William Sommerwerck
How can you ASSUME anything? A five minute internet seach shows me that it
is inconclusive whether Sonia Horowitz even committed suicide, and zero
evidence that her troubled relationship with her father (which presumably
would have been a contributing factor if she *did* committ suicide) was
caused by his being homosexual.
Again, you're misreading. If Horowitz hadn't felt it necessary to hide his
homosexuality, he wouldn't have married and had a daughter who killed
herself -- for whatever reason. She wouldn't have lived, and she wouldn't
have suffered.
It's said Tom Cruise is gay and the fact that he's no father is openly joked
about..
Richard Loeb
2007-07-04 23:41:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by William Sommerwerck
Post by William Sommerwerck
Post by Frank Berger
Post by William Sommerwerck
On the other hand, the social and political context of someone's
private behavior -- particularly in an era when such behavior was
condemned or even illegal -- can't be ignored. It's unfortunate that
Horowitz had to hide, even to the extent of marrying and fathering
a daughter who committed suicide.
Why was it necessary for his daughter to commit suicide?
It wasn't. But had Horowitz not married and had a daughter, "she"
wouldn't have had to go through the agony that caused her to commit
suicide. The problem (as I understand it) that she (also a pianist)
couldn't
Post by William Sommerwerck
handle having a father who was better-known and more accomplished.
So it had nothing to do with his being gay. And I suppose the only
conclusion to draw is that successful people should never have children.
You've got it backwards. If Horowitz hadn't felt (I assume) that he had to
marry to cover his sexuality, he wouldn't have brought someone into the
world who suffered and wound up killing herself.
HUH???????? Richard
Frank Berger
2007-07-04 21:04:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by William Sommerwerck
Post by William Sommerwerck
Post by Frank Berger
Post by William Sommerwerck
On the other hand, the social and political context of someone's
private behavior -- particularly in an era when such behavior was
condemned or even illegal -- can't be ignored. It's unfortunate that
Horowitz had to hide, even to the extent of marrying and fathering
a daughter who committed suicide.
Why was it necessary for his daughter to commit suicide?
It wasn't. But had Horowitz not married and had a daughter, "she"
wouldn't have had to go through the agony that caused her to commit
suicide. The problem (as I understand it) that she (also a pianist)
couldn't
Post by William Sommerwerck
handle having a father who was better-known and more accomplished.
So it had nothing to do with his being gay. And I suppose the only
conclusion to draw is that successful people should never have children.
You've got it backwards. If Horowitz hadn't felt (I assume) that he had to
marry to cover his sexuality, he wouldn't have brought someone into the
world who suffered and wound up killing herself.
HUH???????? Richard
At last, we agree, Richard.
William Sommerwerck
2007-07-04 21:23:14 UTC
Permalink
I have often felt that any UseNet posting should sit at the writer's desk
for at least a week, until he's had a chance to so thoroughly edit it that
it can't possibly be misunderstood. I suppose I'm partly at fault, but I do
sense a certain lack of ability in other readers to connect A to B to C...

The point is this...

Horowitz was homosexual, in an era when that was not acceptable. Like many
other gay men in the public eye, he felt it necessary to get married to
cover his "deviation". *

Are you all with me so far? Good.

For whatever reasons, he and Toscanini's daughter decided to have a child.
For whatever reasons (which have no bearing on this), she has an unhappy
life and commits suicide.

Still with me? Good.

Had homosexuality not been socially unacceptable, Horowitz would likely not
have married, and likely not have produced an unhappy child who suffered and
killed herself (or, if you like, died prematurely because of bad decisions).

I was trying to make a connection between being closeted and doing things
that hurt yourself and others -- even to the extent of bringing someone into
this world who "shouldn't" have been. That was the point -- not that
Horowitz was a bad husband or father because he was queer (though he might
have been). Don't you think that had Horowitz and his wife known what was
going to happen to their daughter, they never would have had a child?

* Yes, yes, yes, this is an assumption. But it's a reasonable one.
Jack Hamilton
2007-07-04 21:51:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by William Sommerwerck
Had homosexuality not been socially unacceptable, Horowitz would likely not
have married, and likely not have produced an unhappy child who suffered and
killed herself (or, if you like, died prematurely because of bad decisions).
He probably wouldn't have married, but he might have had children, and
they might or might or might not have been unhappy. Lots of closeted
men and women have had children who didn't commit suicide. And lots
of straight parents have children who commit suicide.

There seems to be a connection between being closeted and killing
yourself, but that's different from being closeted and having your
children kill themselves. It happens, yes, but there must have been
many other factors involved.
Frank Berger
2007-07-04 22:37:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by William Sommerwerck
I have often felt that any UseNet posting should sit at the writer's desk
for at least a week, until he's had a chance to so thoroughly edit it that
it can't possibly be misunderstood. I suppose I'm partly at fault, but I do
sense a certain lack of ability in other readers to connect A to B to C...
The point is this...
Horowitz was homosexual, in an era when that was not acceptable. Like many
other gay men in the public eye, he felt it necessary to get married to
cover his "deviation". *
Are you all with me so far? Good.
For whatever reasons, he and Toscanini's daughter decided to have a child.
For whatever reasons (which have no bearing on this), she has an unhappy
life and commits suicide.
Still with me? Good.
Had homosexuality not been socially unacceptable, Horowitz would likely not
have married, and likely not have produced an unhappy child who suffered and
killed herself (or, if you like, died prematurely because of bad decisions).
I was trying to make a connection between being closeted and doing things
that hurt yourself and others -- even to the extent of bringing someone into
this world who "shouldn't" have been. That was the point -- not that
Horowitz was a bad husband or father because he was queer (though he might
have been). Don't you think that had Horowitz and his wife known what was
going to happen to their daughter, they never would have had a child?
* Yes, yes, yes, this is an assumption. But it's a reasonable one.
Like I said, you had no point to make.
Norman M. Schwartz
2007-07-05 00:10:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Frank Berger
Post by William Sommerwerck
I have often felt that any UseNet posting should sit at the writer's desk
for at least a week, until he's had a chance to so thoroughly edit it that
it can't possibly be misunderstood. I suppose I'm partly at fault, but I do
sense a certain lack of ability in other readers to connect A to B to C...
The point is this...
Horowitz was homosexual, in an era when that was not acceptable. Like many
other gay men in the public eye, he felt it necessary to get married to
cover his "deviation". *
Are you all with me so far? Good.
For whatever reasons, he and Toscanini's daughter decided to have a child.
For whatever reasons (which have no bearing on this), she has an unhappy
life and commits suicide.
Still with me? Good.
Had homosexuality not been socially unacceptable, Horowitz would likely not
have married, and likely not have produced an unhappy child who suffered and
killed herself (or, if you like, died prematurely because of bad decisions).
I was trying to make a connection between being closeted and doing things
that hurt yourself and others -- even to the extent of bringing someone into
this world who "shouldn't" have been. That was the point -- not that
Horowitz was a bad husband or father because he was queer (though he might
have been). Don't you think that had Horowitz and his wife known what was
going to happen to their daughter, they never would have had a child?
* Yes, yes, yes, this is an assumption. But it's a reasonable one.
Like I said, you had no point to make.
Neither of you make any points so neither of you know that VH was Sonia's
father.
Frank Berger
2007-07-04 23:31:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Norman M. Schwartz
Post by Frank Berger
Post by William Sommerwerck
I have often felt that any UseNet posting should sit at the writer's desk
for at least a week, until he's had a chance to so thoroughly edit it that
it can't possibly be misunderstood. I suppose I'm partly at fault, but I do
sense a certain lack of ability in other readers to connect A to B to C...
The point is this...
Horowitz was homosexual, in an era when that was not acceptable. Like many
other gay men in the public eye, he felt it necessary to get married to
cover his "deviation". *
Are you all with me so far? Good.
For whatever reasons, he and Toscanini's daughter decided to have a child.
For whatever reasons (which have no bearing on this), she has an unhappy
life and commits suicide.
Still with me? Good.
Had homosexuality not been socially unacceptable, Horowitz would likely not
have married, and likely not have produced an unhappy child who suffered and
killed herself (or, if you like, died prematurely because of bad decisions).
I was trying to make a connection between being closeted and doing things
that hurt yourself and others -- even to the extent of bringing someone into
this world who "shouldn't" have been. That was the point -- not that
Horowitz was a bad husband or father because he was queer (though he might
have been). Don't you think that had Horowitz and his wife known what was
going to happen to their daughter, they never would have had a child?
* Yes, yes, yes, this is an assumption. But it's a reasonable one.
Like I said, you had no point to make.
Neither of you make any points so neither of you know that VH was Sonia's
father.
Hey, the only point I tried to make was that he didn't have a point. Which
I did, and with which you seem to agree.
Gabriel Parra
2007-07-05 00:26:46 UTC
Permalink
Some of the responses by those who believe it does not matter whether
Arrau or any artist or public figure was gay are utterly disingeneous.
Why the hell would any of us read biographies, then? If a man or woman
were only to be judged on the basis of his or her works, there would
be no need to explore his or her background either to perhaps gain a
greater appreciation of said works or merely for curiosity's sake,
which is a perfectly valid reason to want to know more about someone
one admires (or detests). Does it help us understand Mozart's music
any better to know that he was fond of using scatological references
in his letters? Not at all, I don't think, and yet his unedited
letters were finally published only a few years ago and just about
everyone agreed that was a good thing, even if they were deffinitely
not meant for public consumption. We pry into the private lives of
others constantly, ESPECIALLY if they are famous and they interest us
personally.

I had heard about Arrau being arrested in Australia, but never knew
the particulars of his "indecent" act. And I do think that the fact of
his homosexuality - like Tchaikovsky's and Schubert's - illuminate
aspects of his artistry. He was wont to emphasize the latent eroticism
in certain works - more than other pianists - and talked unabashedly
about it. Interesting to know whether the eroticism he underlined grew
out of a homosexual or heterosexual conception of it (I hope no one
proposes that there is no difference between the two). Beyond that, I
think the "flambouyance" of some of his interpretations, as another
poster said, could not have been conceived by a heterosexual male.
Now, to suggest that there is no difference in thinking and feeling
and in the way we relate to the world and to each other based on our
sexual preferences is to be profoundly naive and politically correct,
while betraying an utter ignorance of even the most basic Freudian
insights into human nature and sexuality.

I am not gay, though often I have wished I were. I have never been
physically attracted to other men, even if I have found some men
incredibly intellectually and emotionally attractive. I cannot get
past my repugnance for the male physique, unfortunately, and I am
obsessed by the female form. In all other ways, however, I find myself
more often empathizing with homosexual than with heterosexual men,
particularly as the former do not have "macho" emotional inhibitions
that prevent many heterosexual men from having more fulfilling
friendships with other men, beyond merely going to the ballgame and
sitting around the porch drinking beer and talking about pussy.

And I do very much think one's sexuality should be clear to others who
may stand to be affected by it. In the last couple of years alone, I
have been confronted with three otherwise married men (with children)
with whom I established close friendships who went on to express their
desire to have sexual relations with me. I would have been flattered
were it not for the fact that it became evident that part of the
reason they engaged in a friendship with me to begin with was because
of said desires. Moreover, because they could apparently easily switch
between male and female partners, they projected such "sexual
flexibility", if you will, onto others and thought every man was a
blow job away from being "converted," a stance which, when it is
forcefully proposed, can be not only annoying but offensive and
profoundly discomfitting, destroying an otherwise beautiful friendship
in the process. Finally, none of these men's respective wives and
children had any idea about their sexuality, which made all of them
philanderers and liars. I think that says a lot about a person's
character and to what extent you may trust them. I need not mention a
scumbag like McGreevy, former governor of New Jersey, to illustrate my
point. I do think closeted homosexuals are an inherently devious lot,
by necessity, which in terms of character, is a defining
characteristic, to say the least.
JohnGavin
2007-07-05 00:41:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gabriel Parra
Some of the responses by those who believe it does not matter whether
Arrau or any artist or public figure was gay are utterly disingeneous.
Why the hell would any of us read biographies, then? If a man or woman
were only to be judged on the basis of his or her works, there would
be no need to explore his or her background either to perhaps gain a
greater appreciation of said works or merely for curiosity's sake,
which is a perfectly valid reason to want to know more about someone
one admires (or detests). Does it help us understand Mozart's music
any better to know that he was fond of using scatological references
in his letters? Not at all, I don't think, and yet his unedited
letters were finally published only a few years ago and just about
everyone agreed that was a good thing, even if they were deffinitely
not meant for public consumption. We pry into the private lives of
others constantly, ESPECIALLY if they are famous and they interest us
personally.
I had heard about Arrau being arrested in Australia, but never knew
the particulars of his "indecent" act. And I do think that the fact of
his homosexuality - like Tchaikovsky's and Schubert's - illuminate
aspects of his artistry. He was wont to emphasize the latent eroticism
in certain works - more than other pianists - and talked unabashedly
about it. Interesting to know whether the eroticism he underlined grew
out of a homosexual or heterosexual conception of it (I hope no one
proposes that there is no difference between the two). Beyond that, I
think the "flambouyance" of some of his interpretations, as another
poster said, could not have been conceived by a heterosexual male.
Now, to suggest that there is no difference in thinking and feeling
and in the way we relate to the world and to each other based on our
sexual preferences is to be profoundly naive and politically correct,
while betraying an utter ignorance of even the most basic Freudian
insights into human nature and sexuality.
I am not gay, though often I have wished I were. I have never been
physically attracted to other men, even if I have found some men
incredibly intellectually and emotionally attractive. I cannot get
past my repugnance for the male physique, unfortunately, and I am
obsessed by the female form. In all other ways, however, I find myself
more often empathizing with homosexual than with heterosexual men,
particularly as the former do not have "macho" emotional inhibitions
that prevent many heterosexual men from having more fulfilling
friendships with other men, beyond merely going to the ballgame and
sitting around the porch drinking beer and talking about pussy.
And I do very much think one's sexuality should be clear to others who
may stand to be affected by it. In the last couple of years alone, I
have been confronted with three otherwise married men (with children)
with whom I established close friendships who went on to express their
desire to have sexual relations with me. I would have been flattered
were it not for the fact that it became evident that part of the
reason they engaged in a friendship with me to begin with was because
of said desires. Moreover, because they could apparently easily switch
between male and female partners, they projected such "sexual
flexibility", if you will, onto others and thought every man was a
blow job away from being "converted," a stance which, when it is
forcefully proposed, can be not only annoying but offensive and
profoundly discomfitting, destroying an otherwise beautiful friendship
in the process. Finally, none of these men's respective wives and
children had any idea about their sexuality, which made all of them
philanderers and liars. I think that says a lot about a person's
character and to what extent you may trust them. I need not mention a
scumbag like McGreevy, former governor of New Jersey, to illustrate my
point. I do think closeted homosexuals are an inherently devious lot,
by necessity, which in terms of character, is a defining
characteristic, to say the least.
Gabriel, something tells me that this post of yours is going to get
you in trouble in countless ways. All I can say is - ouch!!!
Frank Berger
2007-07-05 01:12:20 UTC
Permalink
/
Post by JohnGavin
Post by Gabriel Parra
Some of the responses by those who believe it does not matter whether
Arrau or any artist or public figure was gay are utterly disingeneous.
Why the hell would any of us read biographies, then? If a man or woman
were only to be judged on the basis of his or her works, there would
be no need to explore his or her background either to perhaps gain a
greater appreciation of said works or merely for curiosity's sake,
which is a perfectly valid reason to want to know more about someone
one admires (or detests). Does it help us understand Mozart's music
any better to know that he was fond of using scatological references
in his letters? Not at all, I don't think, and yet his unedited
letters were finally published only a few years ago and just about
everyone agreed that was a good thing, even if they were deffinitely
not meant for public consumption. We pry into the private lives of
others constantly, ESPECIALLY if they are famous and they interest us
personally.
I had heard about Arrau being arrested in Australia, but never knew
the particulars of his "indecent" act. And I do think that the fact of
his homosexuality - like Tchaikovsky's and Schubert's - illuminate
aspects of his artistry. He was wont to emphasize the latent eroticism
in certain works - more than other pianists - and talked unabashedly
about it. Interesting to know whether the eroticism he underlined grew
out of a homosexual or heterosexual conception of it (I hope no one
proposes that there is no difference between the two). Beyond that, I
think the "flambouyance" of some of his interpretations, as another
poster said, could not have been conceived by a heterosexual male.
Now, to suggest that there is no difference in thinking and feeling
and in the way we relate to the world and to each other based on our
sexual preferences is to be profoundly naive and politically correct,
while betraying an utter ignorance of even the most basic Freudian
insights into human nature and sexuality.
I am not gay, though often I have wished I were. I have never been
physically attracted to other men, even if I have found some men
incredibly intellectually and emotionally attractive. I cannot get
past my repugnance for the male physique, unfortunately, and I am
obsessed by the female form. In all other ways, however, I find myself
more often empathizing with homosexual than with heterosexual men,
particularly as the former do not have "macho" emotional inhibitions
that prevent many heterosexual men from having more fulfilling
friendships with other men, beyond merely going to the ballgame and
sitting around the porch drinking beer and talking about pussy.
And I do very much think one's sexuality should be clear to others who
may stand to be affected by it. In the last couple of years alone, I
have been confronted with three otherwise married men (with children)
with whom I established close friendships who went on to express their
desire to have sexual relations with me. I would have been flattered
were it not for the fact that it became evident that part of the
reason they engaged in a friendship with me to begin with was because
of said desires. Moreover, because they could apparently easily switch
between male and female partners, they projected such "sexual
flexibility", if you will, onto others and thought every man was a
blow job away from being "converted," a stance which, when it is
forcefully proposed, can be not only annoying but offensive and
profoundly discomfitting, destroying an otherwise beautiful friendship
in the process. Finally, none of these men's respective wives and
children had any idea about their sexuality, which made all of them
philanderers and liars. I think that says a lot about a person's
character and to what extent you may trust them. I need not mention a
scumbag like McGreevy, former governor of New Jersey, to illustrate my
point. I do think closeted homosexuals are an inherently devious lot,
by necessity, which in terms of character, is a defining
characteristic, to say the least.
Gabriel, something tells me that this post of yours is going to get
you in trouble in countless ways. All I can say is - ouch!!!
It made my skin crawl.
William Sommerwerck
2007-07-05 01:26:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gabriel Parra
Some of the responses by those who believe it does not matter whether
Arrau or any artist or public figure was gay are utterly disingeneous.
Why the hell would any of us read biographies, then? If a man or woman
were only to be judged on the basis of his or her works, there would
be no need to explore his or her background either to perhaps gain a
greater appreciation of said works or merely for curiosity's sake,
which is a perfectly valid reason to want to know more about someone
one admires (or detests). Does it help us understand Mozart's music
any better to know that he was fond of using scatological references
in his letters? Not at all, I don't think, and yet his unedited
letters were finally published only a few years ago and just about
everyone agreed that was a good thing, even if they were deffinitely
not meant for public consumption. We pry into the private lives of
others constantly, ESPECIALLY if they are famous and they interest us
personally.
I had heard about Arrau being arrested in Australia, but never knew
the particulars of his "indecent" act. And I do think that the fact of
his homosexuality - like Tchaikovsky's and Schubert's - illuminate
aspects of his artistry. He was wont to emphasize the latent eroticism
in certain works - more than other pianists - and talked unabashedly
about it. Interesting to know whether the eroticism he underlined grew
out of a homosexual or heterosexual conception of it (I hope no one
proposes that there is no difference between the two). Beyond that, I
think the "flambouyance" of some of his interpretations, as another
poster said, could not have been conceived by a heterosexual male.
Now, to suggest that there is no difference in thinking and feeling
and in the way we relate to the world and to each other based on our
sexual preferences is to be profoundly naive and politically correct,
while betraying an utter ignorance of even the most basic Freudian
insights into human nature and sexuality.
I am not gay, though often I have wished I were. I have never been
physically attracted to other men, even if I have found some men
incredibly intellectually and emotionally attractive. I cannot get
past my repugnance for the male physique, unfortunately, and I am
obsessed by the female form. In all other ways, however, I find myself
more often empathizing with homosexual than with heterosexual men,
particularly as the former do not have "macho" emotional inhibitions
that prevent many heterosexual men from having more fulfilling
friendships with other men, beyond merely going to the ballgame and
sitting around the porch drinking beer and talking about pussy.
And I do very much think one's sexuality should be clear to others who
may stand to be affected by it. In the last couple of years alone, I
have been confronted with three otherwise married men (with children)
with whom I established close friendships who went on to express their
desire to have sexual relations with me. I would have been flattered
were it not for the fact that it became evident that part of the
reason they engaged in a friendship with me to begin with was because
of said desires. Moreover, because they could apparently easily switch
between male and female partners, they projected such "sexual
flexibility", if you will, onto others and thought every man was a
blow job away from being "converted," a stance which, when it is
forcefully proposed, can be not only annoying but offensive and
profoundly discomfitting, destroying an otherwise beautiful friendship
in the process. Finally, none of these men's respective wives and
children had any idea about their sexuality, which made all of them
philanderers and liars. I think that says a lot about a person's
character and to what extent you may trust them. I need not mention a
scumbag like McGreevy, former governor of New Jersey, to illustrate my
point. I do think closeted homosexuals are an inherently devious lot,
by necessity, which in terms of character, is a defining
characteristic, to say the least.
William Sommerwerck
2007-07-05 01:09:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Frank Berger
Like I said, you had no point to make.
I had a point, and made it. You just didn't think it was a valid point.
Frank Berger
2007-07-05 01:13:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by William Sommerwerck
Post by Frank Berger
Like I said, you had no point to make.
I had a point, and made it. You just didn't think it was a valid point.
No. You didn't make a point. You just said a lot of stuff. It's not the
same thing.
William Sommerwerck
2007-07-05 01:25:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Frank Berger
Post by William Sommerwerck
Post by Frank Berger
Like I said, you had no point to make.
I had a point, and made it. You just didn't think it was a valid point.
No. You didn't make a point. You just said a lot of stuff.
It's not the same thing.
I spelled it out in plain language. Sorry you don't understand simple
English, or reasoning.
Frank Berger
2007-07-05 01:56:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by William Sommerwerck
Post by Frank Berger
Post by William Sommerwerck
Post by Frank Berger
Like I said, you had no point to make.
I had a point, and made it. You just didn't think it was a valid point.
No. You didn't make a point. You just said a lot of stuff.
It's not the same thing.
I spelled it out in plain language. Sorry you don't understand simple
English, or reasoning.
Everybody understand what you said the first time. It wasn't necessary to
repeat it. What you said had no meaningful content.
Frank Berger
2007-07-05 02:10:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by William Sommerwerck
Post by Frank Berger
Post by William Sommerwerck
Post by Frank Berger
Like I said, you had no point to make.
I had a point, and made it. You just didn't think it was a valid point.
No. You didn't make a point. You just said a lot of stuff.
It's not the same thing.
I spelled it out in plain language. Sorry you don't understand simple
English, or reasoning.
I'm going to try one last time. All you've said is that Horowitz's daughter
would have been better off had she not been born. Aside from the fact that
this is debatable *even if* she was unhappy and took her own life (after
all, she may have been "happy" often enough to have justified having been
born), you've made no connection (even denied trying) to VH or his
sexuality. Hence there was no point in saying it, as one could say that
about *anyone* who is unhappy.

Have the last word if you like.
Norman M. Schwartz
2007-07-04 23:59:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by William Sommerwerck
I have often felt that any UseNet posting should sit at the writer's desk
for at least a week, until he's had a chance to so thoroughly edit it that
it can't possibly be misunderstood. I suppose I'm partly at fault, but I do
sense a certain lack of ability in other readers to connect A to B to C...
The point is this...
Horowitz was homosexual, in an era when that was not acceptable. Like many
other gay men in the public eye, he felt it necessary to get married to
cover his "deviation". *
Are you all with me so far? Good.
For whatever reasons, he and Toscanini's daughter decided to have a child.
For whatever reasons (which have no bearing on this), she has an unhappy
life and commits suicide.
Still with me? Good.
Had homosexuality not been socially unacceptable, Horowitz would likely not
have married, and likely not have produced an unhappy child who suffered and
killed herself (or, if you like, died prematurely because of bad decisions).
I was trying to make a connection between being closeted and doing things
that hurt yourself and others -- even to the extent of bringing someone into
this world who "shouldn't" have been. That was the point -- not that
Horowitz was a bad husband or father because he was queer (though he might
have been). Don't you think that had Horowitz and his wife known what was
going to happen to their daughter, they never would have had a child?
* Yes, yes, yes, this is an assumption. But it's a reasonable one.
If Leonard Bernstein knew about this story, (and I assume if you did, he
did), and its consequences apparently it didn't stop him from having three
children.
Phil Caron
2007-07-05 00:06:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by William Sommerwerck
I have often felt that any UseNet posting should sit at the writer's desk
for at least a week, until he's had a chance to so thoroughly edit it that
it can't possibly be misunderstood. I suppose I'm partly at fault, but I do
sense a certain lack of ability in other readers to connect A to B to C...
The point is this...
Horowitz was homosexual, in an era when that was not acceptable. Like many
other gay men in the public eye, he felt it necessary to get married to
cover his "deviation". *
Are you all with me so far? Good.
For whatever reasons, he and Toscanini's daughter decided to have a child.
For whatever reasons (which have no bearing on this), she has an unhappy
life and commits suicide.
Still with me? Good.
Had homosexuality not been socially unacceptable, Horowitz would likely not
have married, and likely not have produced an unhappy child who suffered and
killed herself (or, if you like, died prematurely because of bad decisions).
It's that use of "because" that's the problem. Why she was born has no
demonstrable bearing on why she died. I think you're just reaching for
something from atop your gay soapbox.

- Phil Caron
William Sommerwerck
2007-07-05 01:19:20 UTC
Permalink
It's that use of "because" that's the problem. Why she was
born has no demonstrable bearing on why she died. I think
you're just reaching for something from atop your gay soapbox.
Duh. She died -- unhappily -- because she was born.
Frank Berger
2007-07-05 01:58:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by William Sommerwerck
It's that use of "because" that's the problem. Why she was
born has no demonstrable bearing on why she died. I think
you're just reaching for something from atop your gay soapbox.
Duh. She died -- unhappily -- because she was born.
Can't you see how ridiculous that is? She died because she was born. As we
all do. She didn't die unhappily *because* she was born.
unknown
2007-07-05 03:56:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by William Sommerwerck
I have often felt that any UseNet posting should sit at the writer's desk
for at least a week, until he's had a chance to so thoroughly edit it that
it can't possibly be misunderstood. I suppose I'm partly at fault, but I do
sense a certain lack of ability in other readers to connect A to B to C...
The point is this...
Horowitz was homosexual, in an era when that was not acceptable. Like many
other gay men in the public eye, he felt it necessary to get married to
cover his "deviation". *
Are you all with me so far? Good.
For whatever reasons, he and Toscanini's daughter decided to have a child.
For whatever reasons (which have no bearing on this), she has an unhappy
life and commits suicide.
Still with me? Good.
Had homosexuality not been socially unacceptable, Horowitz would likely not
have married, and likely not have produced an unhappy child who suffered and
killed herself (or, if you like, died prematurely because of bad decisions).
I was trying to make a connection between being closeted and doing things
that hurt yourself and others -- even to the extent of bringing someone into
this world who "shouldn't" have been. That was the point -- not that
Horowitz was a bad husband or father because he was queer (though he might
have been). Don't you think that had Horowitz and his wife known what was
going to happen to their daughter, they never would have had a child?
* Yes, yes, yes, this is an assumption. But it's a reasonable one.
I got it, I think, but, judging from the responses to even this
unpacked version of the thought, it's still more elusive than you
guessed. I think there are actually two ideas sort of struggling for
primacy, and that's part of the problem. One is: it is a bad and
socially corrosive thing for people to be forced by social expectations
into essentially false relationships, especially ones that produce
children who would not have otherwise been born. The other is
considerably more messy: Horowitz was a closeted gay guy whose
daughter committed suicide, and, but for the fact that he felt the need
to show a heterosexual face to the world, perhaps her life would never
have taken place at all, and had her life not taken place, this human
being would have been spared whatever pain it was that caused her to
end her own life (and would have spared those around her the pain of
witnessing that life and death). And when you put all of this
together, there's a potential line of causality that could be drawn
between social expectations of heterosexuality and her suicide.

I'm not saying I really agree with any of this totally, but I think I
know what you mean.

wr

Richard Schultz
2007-07-04 17:18:37 UTC
Permalink
In article <***@comcast.com>, William Sommerwerck <***@comcast.net> wrote:

:> Why was it necessary for his daughter to commit suicide?
:
: It wasn't. But had Horowitz not married and had a daughter, "she" wouldn't
: have had to go through the agony that caused her to commit suicide. The
: problem (as I understand it) that she (also a pianist) couldn't handle
: having a father who was better-known and more accomplished.

Which (I assume that this was your point) had nothing to do with whether
or not he was homosexual, heterosexual, or people-sexual. You could also
argue that had *Horowitz's* parents not married and had a son, then "he"
wouldn't have become a famous pianist who later had a daughter who
committed suicide. . .

-----
Richard Schultz ***@mail.biu.ac.il
Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel
Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University
-----
"Logic is a wreath of pretty flowers which smell bad."
William Sommerwerck
2007-07-04 19:01:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Richard Schultz
:> Why was it necessary for his daughter to commit suicide?
: It wasn't. But had Horowitz not married and had a daughter, "she" wouldn't
: have had to go through the agony that caused her to commit suicide. The
: problem (as I understand it) that she (also a pianist) couldn't handle
: having a father who was better-known and more accomplished.
Which (I assume that this was your point) had nothing to do with whether
or not he was homosexual, heterosexual, or people-sexual. You could also
argue that had *Horowitz's* parents not married and had a son, then "he"
wouldn't have become a famous pianist who later had a daughter who
committed suicide. . .
Again, backwards. See my other response.
O
2007-07-04 18:05:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by William Sommerwerck
Post by Frank Berger
Post by William Sommerwerck
On the other hand, the social and political context of someone's
private behavior -- particularly in an era when such behavior was
condemned or even illegal -- can't be ignored. It's unfortunate that
Horowitz had to hide, even to the extent of marrying and fathering
a daughter who committed suicide.
Why was it necessary for his daughter to commit suicide?
It wasn't. But had Horowitz not married and had a daughter, "she" wouldn't
have had to go through the agony that caused her to commit suicide. The
problem (as I understand it) that she (also a pianist) couldn't handle
having a father who was better-known and more accomplished.
So, you're advocating pre-conception abortion? (I suppose I have to
add :-) for the humor-challenged)

-Owen
sechumlib
2007-07-04 18:50:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by O
Post by William Sommerwerck
Post by Frank Berger
Post by William Sommerwerck
On the other hand, the social and political context of someone's
private behavior -- particularly in an era when such behavior was
condemned or even illegal -- can't be ignored. It's unfortunate that
Horowitz had to hide, even to the extent of marrying and fathering
a daughter who committed suicide.
Why was it necessary for his daughter to commit suicide?
It wasn't. But had Horowitz not married and had a daughter, "she" wouldn't
have had to go through the agony that caused her to commit suicide. The
problem (as I understand it) that she (also a pianist) couldn't handle
having a father who was better-known and more accomplished.
So, you're advocating pre-conception abortion? (I suppose I have to
add :-) for the humor-challenged)
Now, Owen! That makes you a blatant hypocrite.

You keep telling me, in other threads, how I am putting words in your
mouth that you never said. And this poster definitely did not say
anything about "advocating pre-conception abortion" (which isn't
surprising since that's an impossible act). You threw at him, as his
own work, things he never said and probably never thought.

So quit whining to me in ANY thread, at ANY time, about allegedly doing
what you repeatedly do yourself.
William Sommerwerck
2007-07-04 19:04:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by William Sommerwerck
Post by Frank Berger
Why was it necessary for his daughter to commit suicide?
It wasn't. But had Horowitz not married and had a daughter, "she"
wouldn't have had to go through the agony that caused her to
commit suicide. The problem (as I understand it) that she (also
a pianist) couldn't handle having a father who was better-known
and more accomplished.
So, you're advocating pre-conception abortion? (I suppose I have to
add :-) for the humor-challenged)
Yes, in a sense. Parents have children without thinking about the
possibility that their lives might be quite terrible. As Brahms said to the
parents of a newborn child... "You denied him the greatest gift of all...
Not to be born."
Frank Berger
2007-07-04 20:01:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by William Sommerwerck
Post by William Sommerwerck
Post by Frank Berger
Why was it necessary for his daughter to commit suicide?
It wasn't. But had Horowitz not married and had a daughter, "she"
wouldn't have had to go through the agony that caused her to
commit suicide. The problem (as I understand it) that she (also
a pianist) couldn't handle having a father who was better-known
and more accomplished.
So, you're advocating pre-conception abortion? (I suppose I have to
add :-) for the humor-challenged)
Yes, in a sense. Parents have children without thinking about the
possibility that their lives might be quite terrible.
Some surely do. Whether open homosexuals or frustrated in-the-closet
homosexuals are more likely to do so than other potentially bad parents has
not been demonstrated. By you at least.
Norman M. Schwartz
2007-07-05 00:16:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by William Sommerwerck
Post by William Sommerwerck
Post by Frank Berger
Why was it necessary for his daughter to commit suicide?
It wasn't. But had Horowitz not married and had a daughter, "she"
wouldn't have had to go through the agony that caused her to
commit suicide. The problem (as I understand it) that she (also
a pianist) couldn't handle having a father who was better-known
and more accomplished.
So, you're advocating pre-conception abortion? (I suppose I have to
add :-) for the humor-challenged)
Yes, in a sense. Parents have children without thinking about the
possibility that their lives might be quite terrible. As Brahms said to the
parents of a newborn child... "You denied him the greatest gift of all...
Not to be born."
Sour grapes from a frustrated old SOB.
William Sommerwerck
2007-07-05 01:20:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Norman M. Schwartz
Post by William Sommerwerck
Yes, in a sense. Parents have children without thinking about the
possibility that their lives might be quite terrible. As Brahms said to the
parents of a newborn child... "You denied him the greatest gift of all...
Not to be born."
Sour grapes from a frustrated old SOB.
He was a young man when he said this.
unknown
2007-07-05 03:16:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by William Sommerwerck
Post by William Sommerwerck
Post by Frank Berger
Why was it necessary for his daughter to commit suicide?
It wasn't. But had Horowitz not married and had a daughter, "she"
wouldn't have had to go through the agony that caused her to
commit suicide. The problem (as I understand it) that she (also
a pianist) couldn't handle having a father who was better-known
and more accomplished.
So, you're advocating pre-conception abortion? (I suppose I have to
add :-) for the humor-challenged)
Yes, in a sense. Parents have children without thinking about the
possibility that their lives might be quite terrible. As Brahms said to the
parents of a newborn child... "You denied him the greatest gift of all...
Not to be born."
Which for some reason reminds me of a story about some recognized-as-
wise person or another, who, when asked about the suicide of a very
young girl that had just occurred, said, "She was correcting an
error." It funny, but when I first heard it years ago, I thought the
remark was horrifyingly callous, although brilliant. But now it seems
thoughtful and kind.

wr
HKAlan
2007-07-04 20:43:59 UTC
Permalink
I've always been under the impression that all classical pianists are
gay, except for those whose last name is Serkin.

And I've always been under the impression that no classical violinists
are gay.

I don't entirely understand why some people think that others should
have no interest in the personal lives of great artists. We read
biographies. It's fun and sometimes instructive to read about the
personal lives of great artists.

Anyway, lots of straight people's children have committed suicide. Did
they commit suicide because their parents were straight? (I know that
the other poster was not suggesting that Horowitz's sexuality was the
only reason his daughter committed suicide.)

And I have to agree with those who think that there's nothing about
that photo of Bernstein and his son (at least as it was described
here, I haven't seen the photo) that would particularly suggest that
the father was gay.

Alan
sechumlib
2007-07-04 21:02:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by HKAlan
I've always been under the impression that all classical pianists are
gay, except for those whose last name is Serkin.
And those named Wu Han, at the very least.
John Thomas
2007-07-04 12:48:56 UTC
Permalink
Can we PLEASE move back to only ON TOPIC subject relevant to this
forum's primary interest these days? Is Scooter Libby gay?
--
jwt
John Wilson
2007-07-04 13:58:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Thomas
Can we PLEASE move back to only ON TOPIC subject relevant to this
forum's primary interest these days? Is Scooter Libby gay?
Of course he is. Only a gay man would take the fall and risk going to
jail for another man.

John
Bob Lombard
2007-07-04 14:19:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Wilson
Post by John Thomas
Can we PLEASE move back to only ON TOPIC subject relevant to this
forum's primary interest these days? Is Scooter Libby gay?
Of course he is. Only a gay man would take the fall and risk going to
jail for another man.
John
--------
LOL. A legion of 'stand-up guys' would maybe come looking for you, if any of
them have nothing to do but read rmcr.

bl
John Wilson
2007-07-04 20:08:04 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 4 Jul 2007 10:19:42 -0400, "Bob Lombard"
Post by Bob Lombard
Post by John Wilson
Post by John Thomas
Can we PLEASE move back to only ON TOPIC subject relevant to this
forum's primary interest these days? Is Scooter Libby gay?
Of course he is. Only a gay man would take the fall and risk going to
jail for another man.
John
--------
LOL. A legion of 'stand-up guys' would maybe come looking for you, if any of
them have nothing to do but read rmcr.
bl
LOL! I hope G. Gordon Liddy is among them. I've always wanted to
tell him what a dork his is to his face.

Seriously, I hear from informed sources that Scooter (how can a guy
with that nickname not be gay) was very distraught with the
commutation of his sentence. He was looking forward to meeting Bubba.

John
Bob Lombard
2007-07-04 20:48:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Wilson
On Wed, 4 Jul 2007 10:19:42 -0400, "Bob Lombard"
Post by Bob Lombard
Post by John Wilson
Post by John Thomas
Can we PLEASE move back to only ON TOPIC subject relevant to this
forum's primary interest these days? Is Scooter Libby gay?
Of course he is. Only a gay man would take the fall and risk going to
jail for another man.
John
--------
LOL. A legion of 'stand-up guys' would maybe come looking for you, if any of
them have nothing to do but read rmcr.
bl
LOL! I hope G. Gordon Liddy is among them. I've always wanted to
tell him what a dork his is to his face.
Seriously, I hear from informed sources that Scooter (how can a guy
with that nickname not be gay) was very distraught with the
commutation of his sentence. He was looking forward to meeting Bubba.
John
-------
Um, the one-time Yankee shortstop was gay? Anyway, Libby must have been
mislead. Bubba is a folk-legend, a sort of Pecos Peter.

bl
Allen
2007-07-04 14:15:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Thomas
Can we PLEASE move back to only ON TOPIC subject relevant to this
forum's primary interest these days? Is Scooter Libby gay?
Don't know, don't care, but I'm sure he's happy (or gay in the old sense).
Allen
Frank Berger
2007-07-04 15:38:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Thomas
Can we PLEASE move back to only ON TOPIC subject relevant to this
forum's primary interest these days? Is Scooter Libby gay?
He is today.
Terry Simmons
2007-07-04 13:04:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gabriel Parra
Especially to Tom Deacon but others may pipe in: was Claudio Arrau
gay? I know he was married and sired three children, but apparently
he, like, Horowitz and Richter, was a closeted homosexual. In fact, I
found a website that lists supposedly gay celebrities and famous
people as a "confirmed" homosexual. Any reliable sources who can vouch
for that?
Yep.
Ian Pace
2007-07-04 15:50:04 UTC
Permalink
Why this underlying assumption from many quarters that someone has to be
definitively 'gay' or 'straight'?
Frank Berger
2007-07-04 15:58:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ian Pace
Why this underlying assumption from many quarters that someone has to be
definitively 'gay' or 'straight'?
Please explain how Capitalism is the root of prejudice against homosexuals.
Walter Traprock
2007-07-04 16:33:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Frank Berger
Post by Ian Pace
Why this underlying assumption from many quarters that someone has to be
definitively 'gay' or 'straight'?
Please explain how Capitalism is the root of prejudice against homosexuals.
I thought homosexuality was the root of capitalism.
Ian Pace
2007-07-04 16:51:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Frank Berger
Post by Ian Pace
Why this underlying assumption from many quarters that someone has to be
definitively 'gay' or 'straight'?
Please explain how Capitalism is the root of prejudice against
homosexuals.
What are you on?
Richard Schultz
2007-07-04 16:06:55 UTC
Permalink
In article <MkPii.5801$***@newsfe1-gui.ntli.net>, Ian Pace <***@ianpace.com> wrote:
: Why this underlying assumption from many quarters that someone has to be
: definitively 'gay' or 'straight'?

AFAIK, it's the people on your end of the political spectrum who make that
claim, usually in the context of telling someone who claims to be in between
(cf. the Kinsey report) that he's "really" homosexual but lacks the guts
to admit it. Frankly, I really don't see why a person's sexuality should
be of any interest to anyone who is not a prospective sexual partner.

-----
Richard Schultz ***@mail.biu.ac.il
Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel
Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University
-----
"Logic is a wreath of pretty flowers which smell bad."
Walter Traprock
2007-07-04 16:34:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Richard Schultz
: Why this underlying assumption from many quarters that someone has to be
: definitively 'gay' or 'straight'?
AFAIK, it's the people on your end of the political spectrum who make that
claim, usually in the context of telling someone who claims to be in between
(cf. the Kinsey report) that he's "really" homosexual but lacks the guts
to admit it. Frankly, I really don't see why a person's sexuality should
be of any interest to anyone who is not a prospective sexual partner.
Someone have the hots for Arrau?
Jack Hamilton
2007-07-04 16:48:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Richard Schultz
: Why this underlying assumption from many quarters that someone has to be
: definitively 'gay' or 'straight'?
AFAIK, it's the people on your end of the political spectrum who make that
claim, usually in the context of telling someone who claims to be in between
(cf. the Kinsey report) that he's "really" homosexual but lacks the guts
to admit it. Frankly, I really don't see why a person's sexuality should
be of any interest to anyone who is not a prospective sexual partner.
"Peter Grimes".
William Sommerwerck
2007-07-04 18:58:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jack Hamilton
Frankly, I really don't see why a person's sexuality should be
of any interest to anyone who is not a prospective sexual partner.
"Peter Grimes"
Good point. Most, if not all, of Britten's operas have a homoerotic
subtext -- and in two it's right on the surface. This is an excellent
example of how knowing about someone's sexuality helps us understand his
work.
Niklas N
2007-07-04 16:39:29 UTC
Permalink
This is a very long thread.
Post by Gabriel Parra
Especially to Tom Deacon but others may pipe in: was Claudio Arrau
gay? I know he was married and sired three children, but apparently
he, like, Horowitz and Richter, was a closeted homosexual. In fact, I
found a website that lists supposedly gay celebrities and famous
people as a "confirmed" homosexual. Any reliable sources who can vouch
for that?
Frank Berger
2007-07-04 17:14:01 UTC
Permalink
Just made longer.
Post by Niklas N
This is a very long thread.
Post by Gabriel Parra
Especially to Tom Deacon but others may pipe in: was Claudio Arrau
gay? I know he was married and sired three children, but apparently
he, like, Horowitz and Richter, was a closeted homosexual. In fact, I
found a website that lists supposedly gay celebrities and famous
people as a "confirmed" homosexual. Any reliable sources who can vouch
for that?
Richard Schultz
2007-07-04 17:19:14 UTC
Permalink
In article <53Qii.3433$***@newsb.telia.net>, Niklas N <***@telia.com> wrote:
: This is a very long thread.

My thread's longer than your thread.

-----
Richard Schultz ***@mail.biu.ac.il
Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel
Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University
-----
"I daresay there's truth in yon Latin book on your shelves; but it's
gibberish and not truth to me, unless I know the meaning o' the words."
--Elizabeth Gaskell, _North and South_
sechumlib
2007-07-04 17:29:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Richard Schultz
: This is a very long thread.
My thread's longer than your thread.
Is that a proto-gay comment? :-)
Roland van Gaalen
2007-07-04 20:04:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gabriel Parra
Especially to Tom Deacon but others may pipe in: was Claudio Arrau
gay? I know he was married and sired three children, but apparently
he, like, Horowitz and Richter, was a closeted homosexual. In fact, I
found a website that lists supposedly gay celebrities and famous
people as a "confirmed" homosexual. Any reliable sources who can vouch
for that?
He is definitely one of my favorite conductors!!!
--
Roland van Gaalen
Amsterdam
r.p.vangaalenATchello.nl (AT=@)
Roland van Gaalen
2007-07-05 01:00:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Roland van Gaalen
Post by Gabriel Parra
Especially to Tom Deacon but others may pipe in: was Claudio Arrau
gay? I know he was married and sired three children, but apparently
he, like, Horowitz and Richter, was a closeted homosexual. In fact, I
found a website that lists supposedly gay celebrities and famous
people as a "confirmed" homosexual. Any reliable sources who can vouch
for that?
He is definitely one of my favorite conductors!!!
I meant: pianists (!!!)

And Claudio Abbado is one of my favorite conductors (!!!)

An instance of "mutatis mutandis", I suppose.
Post by Roland van Gaalen
--
Roland van Gaalen
Amsterdam
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