Discussion:
RIP Dietrich Fischer-Dieskau (1925-2012)
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EM
2012-05-18 11:51:37 UTC
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Breaking news:
<http://www.spiegel.de/kultur/musik/dietrich-fischer-dieskau-gestorben-a-833828.html>

EM
Louis
2012-05-18 12:01:28 UTC
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Sad news indeed... A great voice with an incredible range of emotions.
Louis
Post by EM
<http://www.spiegel.de/kultur/musik/dietrich-fischer-dieskau-gestorben-a-833828.html>
EM
wagnerfan
2012-05-18 12:27:48 UTC
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Post by Louis
Sad news indeed... A great voice with an incredible range of emotions.
Louis
Post by EM
<http://www.spiegel.de/kultur/musik/dietrich-fischer-dieskau-gestorben-a-833828.html>
EM
I owe him so much - he taught me the joys of German Lieder and much
else too. A renaissance man - author, conductor, singer and teacher.
Fortunately we have a huge recorded legacy to remember him with - he
took to the recording studio like a duck to water. May he rest in
peace

Wagner fan
Kirk McElhearn <kirkmc (at) mac (dot) com>
2012-05-18 12:28:57 UTC
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Post by wagnerfan
I owe him so much - he taught me the joys of German Lieder and much
else too. A renaissance man - author, conductor, singer and teacher.
Fortunately we have a huge recorded legacy to remember him with - he
took to the recording studio like a duck to water. May he rest in
peace
My thoughts exactly. He opened the door to lieder for me, and this has,
over the years - and through his many recordings - become one of my
favorite styles of music.

I've just put on his 1965 Wintereisse...

Kirk
--
Kirkville -- http://www.mcelhearn.com
Writings about more than just Macs
Take Control of iTunes 10: The FAQ: http://www.mcelhearn.com/itunes
wagnerfan
2012-05-18 12:30:07 UTC
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On Fri, 18 May 2012 14:28:57 +0200, Kirk McElhearn <kirkmc (at) mac
Post by Kirk McElhearn <kirkmc (at) mac (dot) com>
Post by wagnerfan
I owe him so much - he taught me the joys of German Lieder and much
else too. A renaissance man - author, conductor, singer and teacher.
Fortunately we have a huge recorded legacy to remember him with - he
took to the recording studio like a duck to water. May he rest in
peace
My thoughts exactly. He opened the door to lieder for me, and this has,
over the years - and through his many recordings - become one of my
favorite styles of music.
I've just put on his 1965 Wintereisse...
Kirk
For me it is the 1963 Schone Mullerin - can't be any better. Wagner
fan
wagnerfan
2012-05-18 12:41:07 UTC
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Post by wagnerfan
On Fri, 18 May 2012 14:28:57 +0200, Kirk McElhearn <kirkmc (at) mac
Post by Kirk McElhearn <kirkmc (at) mac (dot) com>
Post by wagnerfan
I owe him so much - he taught me the joys of German Lieder and much
else too. A renaissance man - author, conductor, singer and teacher.
Fortunately we have a huge recorded legacy to remember him with - he
took to the recording studio like a duck to water. May he rest in
peace
My thoughts exactly. He opened the door to lieder for me, and this has,
over the years - and through his many recordings - become one of my
favorite styles of music.
I've just put on his 1965 Wintereisse...
Kirk
For me it is the 1963 Schone Mullerin - can't be any better. Wagner
fan
Some nice person uploaded that 1965 Winterreise to youtube



Wagner fan
basnperson
2012-05-19 14:00:51 UTC
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Post by wagnerfan
On Fri, 18 May 2012 14:28:57 +0200, Kirk McElhearn <kirkmc (at) mac
Post by Kirk McElhearn <kirkmc (at) mac (dot) com>
 I owe him so much - he taught me the joys of German Lieder and much
else too. A renaissance man - author, conductor, singer and teacher.
Fortunately we have a huge recorded legacy to remember him with - he
took to the recording studio like a duck to water. May he rest in
peace
My thoughts exactly. He opened the door to lieder for me, and this has,
over the years - and through his many recordings - become one of my
favorite styles of music.
I've just put on his 1965 Wintereisse...
Kirk
  For me it is the 1963 Schone Mullerin - can't be any better.  Wagner
fan- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
not Schiotz?

AB
Steve de Mena
2012-05-19 07:42:09 UTC
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Post by Kirk McElhearn <kirkmc (at) mac (dot) com>
Post by wagnerfan
I owe him so much - he taught me the joys of German Lieder and much
else too. A renaissance man - author, conductor, singer and teacher.
Fortunately we have a huge recorded legacy to remember him with - he
took to the recording studio like a duck to water. May he rest in
peace
My thoughts exactly. He opened the door to lieder for me, and this
has, over the years - and through his many recordings - become one of
my favorite styles of music.
He opened the door to lieder for me (and countless others).

And he sang Mahler's "Lieder eines fahrenden Gesellen" with orchestra
at the very first classical concert I attended in 1973.

I have to admit I was listening to some Donna Summer earlier but
tomorrow will play some of DFD's Schubert.

Steve
Matthew B. Tepper
2012-05-18 14:31:41 UTC
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Post by Louis
Sad news indeed... A great voice with an incredible range of emotions.
Louis
Very sad news indeed. I saw him "live" only once, an all-Schubert recital
at San Francisco's Masonic Auditorium c. 1975. But of his many recordings
-- how many, hundreds, most likely? -- I have quite a few (including that
big Schubert box).

Here is the obituary from Gramophone:

Baritone Dietrich Fischer-Dieskau has died aged 86
Born May 28, 1925; Died May 18, 2012
Fri 18th May 2012
Dietrich Fischer-Dieskau (photo: Harald Hoffmann/DG)

Celebrated German baritone Dietrich Fischer-Dieskau has died at the age of
86, just 10 days before his 87th birthday. One of the giants in the
tradition of Lieder interpretation, Fischer-Dieskau featured prominently in
Gramophone's Hall of Fame.

Fischer-Dieskau emerged as a performer following the Second World War, and
established a style of interpretation that focused on the poetry allied to
an extraordinary control of timbre, tone and colour which gave his
performances remarkable insight. Often working with Walter Legge as
producer, Fischer-Dieskau's style with its strong focus on the text is
often compared with that of his contemporary and frequent partner Elisabeth
Schwarzkopf. He was frequently partnered by Gerald Moore, Jörg Demus,
Daniel Barenboim and Alfred Brendel, among other pianists. His work in the
opera house was very wide-ranging, and linguistically broad (taking in
Mozart, Strauss, Verdi, Wagner as well as modern works) but it was in song
that he was unequalled. The baritone part in Britten's War Requiem was one
of numerous works written for him.

Here is the obituary from The Guardian:

Dietrich Fischer-Dieskau, the distinguished German baritone, has died aged
86. His Protean career was surely unique, as he sang and recorded more
vocal music than any who came before. In particular, he broached more
lieder (German songs) than any of his predecessors of the genre, his
recordings running into the hundreds. Many of these songs he recorded
several times over: for instance, he made no fewer than eight recordings of
Schubert's Winterreise cycle alone.

This truly incredible output was the result of an inquiring mind, an
insatiable desire to tackle any and every song he could find, and to be a
proselytiser for the art of lieder and singing in general, all these
underlined by an instinctive wish to achieve perfection in his craft. More
than that, he was an inspiration to the vast number of singers who have
followed his example in this field, and made the singing of lieder a common
experience, not to forget the audience he created for this kind of music-
making. Go to the Wigmore Hall, London, any week or look at the myriad
discs of songs pouring off the CD presses, and you will hear the benefits
of his pioneering effort.

Fischer-Dieskau was born in Berlin and studied there with the veteran
lieder artist Georg Walter, then after the second world war with Hermann
Weissenborn, who partnered him at the piano in early recitals. But many of
his first successes were in opera in Berlin. After his stage debut there,
at the City Opera as Posa in Don Carlos in 1948, he was heard in most of
the major baritone roles, Italian and German, in the house. From 1949
onwards he was appearing regularly at the Vienna State Opera and at the
Bavarian State Opera in Munich. He also sang at the Bayreuth festival from
1954 to 1956 as the Herald (Lohengrin), Wolfram, Kothner and Amfortas.

In 1961 he created, magnificently, the ego-mad Mittenhofer in Henze's Elegy
for Young Lovers at the Schwetzingen festival and in 1978 the title role in
Reimann's Lear at Munich, an overwhelming portrayal. His Covent Garden
debut came in 1965 when he created an immense impression as the impassioned
Mandryka in a new production of Richard Strauss's Arabella under Georg
Solti. He returned later to portray Verdi's Falstaff, a large-scale but
somewhat unidiomatic reading.

Among roles in which he was unforgettable and which he recorded for
posterity are Count Almaviva, Don Giovanni, the Flying Dutchman, Wolfram in
Tannhäuser, Teiramund in Kempe's classic set of Lohengrin, Busoni's Faust,
Hindemith's Mathis, Mandryka, Barak in Strauss's Die Frau ohne Schatten,
and both Oliver and the Count in the same composer's Capriccio.

One of Fischer-Dieskau's first and most moving portrayals on disc was as
Kurwenal in Wilhelm Furtwängler's legendary 1952 recording of Tristan und
Isolde. Another classic recording with the German conductor was of Mahler's
Lieder Eines Fahrenden Gesselen. He twice recorded the same composer's Das
Lied von der Erde, more usually sung by mezzos, first under Paul Kletzki,
then with Leonard Bernstein, and made it very much his own.

Tall, with expressive features, Fischer-Dieskau was a riveting figure on
stage and a not inconsiderable actor. Nobody who caught him as Mandryka,
Mathis or Wolfram is likely to forget the experience.

His enormous repertory also included many choral works. Besides recording
many of Bach's cantatas, he was a sympathetic Christ in both that
composer's Passions, an imposing Elijah and one of the original soloists in
Benjamin Britten's War Requiem, the baritone contributions written
specifically for him. Britten in 1965 composed his Songs and Proverbs of
William Blake for Fischer-Dieskau, just one of the many commissions his
singing inspired.

Yet it was with his lieder accomplishments that he achieved his greatest
deeds. He recorded all the songs of Schubert, Schumann, Brahms, Hugo Wolf
and Strauss suitable for a male voice. He worked on them first with Gerald
Moore, doyen of pure accompanists, and then was partnered by a host of
distinguished solo pianists and the conductor Wolfgang Sawallisch, each of
whom inspired him to refreshingly new insights.

Fischer-Dieskau had a full, firm and resonant baritone, which could be
honed down to the most delicate mezza voce. It was used with the utmost
care in managing and projecting the text. He could on occasion be too
emphatic in his treatment of words and was sometimes accused of overloading
climaxes, but these were only the downside of a singer who was totally
immersed in everything he undertook. An excellent linguist, he was almost
as happy singing in Italian, French and English as in his native tongue,
and he spoke English with virtually no accent.

In a career lasting more than 40 years, there was, as the years went by,
inevitably some deterioration in his tone, but he compensated for the
decline with a new lightness of approach and an even deeper penetration
into the meaning of each song, as his 1986 recording of Winterreise with
Alfred Brendel reveals. After he had retired from singing in 1992, he took
up another career reciting literary texts, often associated with song. He
was also willing to give private lessons to carefully chosen singers to
whom he imparted his immense experience as an interpreter.

He published a book of memoirs, Nachklang, in 1987, translated into English
as Echoes of a Lifetime. It was an unusual autobiography in showing a man
who, for all his many achievements, was uncertain of himself. That
reflected the impression made when you met him. He was initially shy, but
you always felt that behind the quizzical, sly, humorous eye and manner lay
a man of philosophical bent, perhaps amazed himself at what his genius, for
it was no less, had led him to achieve.

He is survived by his fourth wife, the soprano Julia Varady, whom he
married in 1977, and three sons by his first wife, the cellist Irmgard
Poppen, who died in 1963.

• Dietrich Fischer-Dieskau, baritone singer, born 28 May 1925; died 18 May
2012

And here is the obituary from Billboard.com:
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!!
Read about "Proty" here: http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/proty.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
Opinions expressed here are not necessarily those of my employers.
wagnerfan
2012-05-18 14:39:08 UTC
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On Fri, 18 May 2012 09:31:41 -0500, "Matthew B. Tepper"
Post by Matthew B. Tepper
Post by Louis
Sad news indeed... A great voice with an incredible range of emotions.
Louis
Very sad news indeed. I saw him "live" only once, an all-Schubert recital
at San Francisco's Masonic Auditorium c. 1975. But of his many recordings
-- how many, hundreds, most likely? -- I have quite a few (including that
big Schubert box).
Baritone Dietrich Fischer-Dieskau has died aged 86
Born May 28, 1925; Died May 18, 2012
Fri 18th May 2012
Dietrich Fischer-Dieskau (photo: Harald Hoffmann/DG)
Celebrated German baritone Dietrich Fischer-Dieskau has died at the age of
86, just 10 days before his 87th birthday. One of the giants in the
tradition of Lieder interpretation, Fischer-Dieskau featured prominently in
Gramophone's Hall of Fame.
Fischer-Dieskau emerged as a performer following the Second World War, and
established a style of interpretation that focused on the poetry allied to
an extraordinary control of timbre, tone and colour which gave his
performances remarkable insight. Often working with Walter Legge as
producer, Fischer-Dieskau's style with its strong focus on the text is
often compared with that of his contemporary and frequent partner Elisabeth
Schwarzkopf. He was frequently partnered by Gerald Moore, Jörg Demus,
Daniel Barenboim and Alfred Brendel, among other pianists. His work in the
opera house was very wide-ranging, and linguistically broad (taking in
Mozart, Strauss, Verdi, Wagner as well as modern works) but it was in song
that he was unequalled. The baritone part in Britten's War Requiem was one
of numerous works written for him.
Dietrich Fischer-Dieskau, the distinguished German baritone, has died aged
86. His Protean career was surely unique, as he sang and recorded more
vocal music than any who came before. In particular, he broached more
lieder (German songs) than any of his predecessors of the genre, his
recordings running into the hundreds. Many of these songs he recorded
several times over: for instance, he made no fewer than eight recordings of
Schubert's Winterreise cycle alone.
This truly incredible output was the result of an inquiring mind, an
insatiable desire to tackle any and every song he could find, and to be a
proselytiser for the art of lieder and singing in general, all these
underlined by an instinctive wish to achieve perfection in his craft. More
than that, he was an inspiration to the vast number of singers who have
followed his example in this field, and made the singing of lieder a common
experience, not to forget the audience he created for this kind of music-
making. Go to the Wigmore Hall, London, any week or look at the myriad
discs of songs pouring off the CD presses, and you will hear the benefits
of his pioneering effort.
Fischer-Dieskau was born in Berlin and studied there with the veteran
lieder artist Georg Walter, then after the second world war with Hermann
Weissenborn, who partnered him at the piano in early recitals. But many of
his first successes were in opera in Berlin. After his stage debut there,
at the City Opera as Posa in Don Carlos in 1948, he was heard in most of
the major baritone roles, Italian and German, in the house. From 1949
onwards he was appearing regularly at the Vienna State Opera and at the
Bavarian State Opera in Munich. He also sang at the Bayreuth festival from
1954 to 1956 as the Herald (Lohengrin), Wolfram, Kothner and Amfortas.
In 1961 he created, magnificently, the ego-mad Mittenhofer in Henze's Elegy
for Young Lovers at the Schwetzingen festival and in 1978 the title role in
Reimann's Lear at Munich, an overwhelming portrayal. His Covent Garden
debut came in 1965 when he created an immense impression as the impassioned
Mandryka in a new production of Richard Strauss's Arabella under Georg
Solti. He returned later to portray Verdi's Falstaff, a large-scale but
somewhat unidiomatic reading.
Among roles in which he was unforgettable and which he recorded for
posterity are Count Almaviva, Don Giovanni, the Flying Dutchman, Wolfram in
Tannhäuser, Teiramund in Kempe's classic set of Lohengrin, Busoni's Faust,
Hindemith's Mathis, Mandryka, Barak in Strauss's Die Frau ohne Schatten,
and both Oliver and the Count in the same composer's Capriccio.
One of Fischer-Dieskau's first and most moving portrayals on disc was as
Kurwenal in Wilhelm Furtwängler's legendary 1952 recording of Tristan und
Isolde. Another classic recording with the German conductor was of Mahler's
Lieder Eines Fahrenden Gesselen. He twice recorded the same composer's Das
Lied von der Erde, more usually sung by mezzos, first under Paul Kletzki,
then with Leonard Bernstein, and made it very much his own.
Tall, with expressive features, Fischer-Dieskau was a riveting figure on
stage and a not inconsiderable actor. Nobody who caught him as Mandryka,
Mathis or Wolfram is likely to forget the experience.
His enormous repertory also included many choral works. Besides recording
many of Bach's cantatas, he was a sympathetic Christ in both that
composer's Passions, an imposing Elijah and one of the original soloists in
Benjamin Britten's War Requiem, the baritone contributions written
specifically for him. Britten in 1965 composed his Songs and Proverbs of
William Blake for Fischer-Dieskau, just one of the many commissions his
singing inspired.
Yet it was with his lieder accomplishments that he achieved his greatest
deeds. He recorded all the songs of Schubert, Schumann, Brahms, Hugo Wolf
and Strauss suitable for a male voice. He worked on them first with Gerald
Moore, doyen of pure accompanists, and then was partnered by a host of
distinguished solo pianists and the conductor Wolfgang Sawallisch, each of
whom inspired him to refreshingly new insights.
Fischer-Dieskau had a full, firm and resonant baritone, which could be
honed down to the most delicate mezza voce. It was used with the utmost
care in managing and projecting the text. He could on occasion be too
emphatic in his treatment of words and was sometimes accused of overloading
climaxes, but these were only the downside of a singer who was totally
immersed in everything he undertook. An excellent linguist, he was almost
as happy singing in Italian, French and English as in his native tongue,
and he spoke English with virtually no accent.
In a career lasting more than 40 years, there was, as the years went by,
inevitably some deterioration in his tone, but he compensated for the
decline with a new lightness of approach and an even deeper penetration
into the meaning of each song, as his 1986 recording of Winterreise with
Alfred Brendel reveals. After he had retired from singing in 1992, he took
up another career reciting literary texts, often associated with song. He
was also willing to give private lessons to carefully chosen singers to
whom he imparted his immense experience as an interpreter.
He published a book of memoirs, Nachklang, in 1987, translated into English
as Echoes of a Lifetime. It was an unusual autobiography in showing a man
who, for all his many achievements, was uncertain of himself. That
reflected the impression made when you met him. He was initially shy, but
you always felt that behind the quizzical, sly, humorous eye and manner lay
a man of philosophical bent, perhaps amazed himself at what his genius, for
it was no less, had led him to achieve.
He is survived by his fourth wife, the soprano Julia Varady, whom he
married in 1977, and three sons by his first wife, the cellist Irmgard
Poppen, who died in 1963.
• Dietrich Fischer-Dieskau, baritone singer, born 28 May 1925; died 18 May
2012
The Guardian review is particularly good - I wonder if we'll get
anything that good this side of the pond.
Wagner fan
wkasimer
2012-05-18 14:46:36 UTC
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  The Guardian review is particularly good - I wonder if we'll get
anything that good this side of the pond.
Why does it matter where something happens to originate? If someone
writes it, and I can read it, who cares in what country it was
originally published?

Bill
Steve de Mena
2012-05-19 07:50:06 UTC
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Post by wkasimer
Post by wagnerfan
The Guardian review is particularly good - I wonder if we'll get
anything that good this side of the pond.
Why does it matter where something happens to originate? If someone
writes it, and I can read it, who cares in what country it was
originally published?
Bill
Exactly. Just like the readers of Billboard could care less about the
death of DFD, so it's pointless to mention it.

Steve
hiker_rs
2012-05-19 13:16:28 UTC
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Post by wagnerfan
On Fri, 18 May 2012 09:31:41 -0500, "Matthew B. Tepper"
  The Guardian review is particularly good - I wonder if we'll get
anything that good this side of the pond.
Wagner fan
It's interesting that the Guardian obit was written by Alan Blyth, who
passed away in 2007 or over 4 years before DFD!

(Major papers write obits of famous people well in advance of the
actual event so that they have a substantial article ready when it
actually happens.)

Rich
EM
2012-05-19 13:48:45 UTC
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Post by hiker_rs
It's interesting that the Guardian obit was written by Alan Blyth, who
passed away in 2007 or over 4 years before DFD!
http://www.guardian.co.uk/profile/alan-blyth
Post by hiker_rs
(Major papers write obits of famous people well in advance of the
actual event so that they have a substantial article ready when it
actually happens.)
There isn't life after death? Not even Elvis? Damn!

EM
wkasimer
2012-05-18 15:05:48 UTC
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So what? Billboard is, and has always been, about "entertainment" and
popular music. If they ever paid attention to classical music, they
no longer do so.

Bill
Gerard
2012-05-18 15:11:46 UTC
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Post by wkasimer
So what? Billboard is, and has always been, about "entertainment" and
popular music. If they ever paid attention to classical music, they
no longer do so.
Bill
That's why it is so short.
Steve de Mena
2012-05-19 07:50:30 UTC
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Post by wkasimer
So what? Billboard is, and has always been, about "entertainment" and
popular music. If they ever paid attention to classical music, they
no longer do so.
Bill
Matthew is a longtime subscriber, I am sure, and feels slighted.

Steve
td
2012-05-18 14:08:14 UTC
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<http://www.spiegel.de/kultur/musik/dietrich-fischer-dieskau-gestorben...>
Sad.

But frankly does anyone miss a lieder singer who huffed and puffed his
way through the repertoire the way FiDi did for decades? Today we have
lieder singers who can actually sing rather than sprech-sing.

TD
wkasimer
2012-05-18 14:41:18 UTC
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Post by td
But frankly does anyone miss a lieder singer who huffed and puffed his
way through the repertoire the way FiDi did for decades? Today we have
lieder singers who can actually sing rather than sprech-sing.
You're a real class act, Tom.

Bill
td
2012-05-18 15:09:02 UTC
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Post by wkasimer
Post by td
But frankly does anyone miss a lieder singer who huffed and puffed his
way through the repertoire the way FiDi did for decades? Today we have
lieder singers who can actually sing rather than sprech-sing.
You're a real class act, Tom.
It seems that you are not.

My opinion of FiDi's singing is simply a matter of taste. Tastes
differ, unless you thought otherwise.

I regret the death of Gerard Souzay much more than I do FiDi.

Incidentally, it might be noted here that FiDi had the ego of an
elephant. He was constantly and routinely putting down his perceived
rivals in the lieder industry. And for what reason? To destroy them,
of course. There is no doubt that the boys and girls at DG will breath
a sigh of relief that they no longer have to take his calls asking
"What have you done for me today?"

This is not to deny his early achievements on record, before the
huffing and puffing crept into his technique in the guise of
expressivity.

That question continues to come to them from Leonard Bernstein's
heirs, of course. They never seem to do enough for Lenny. And they are
very anxious about royalties.

TD
Matthew B. Tepper
2012-05-18 16:13:49 UTC
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wkasimer <***@comcast.net> appears to have caused the following
letters to be typed in news:bab6c85f-23af-4b49-8d4b-
Post by wkasimer
Post by td
But frankly does anyone miss a lieder singer who huffed and puffed his
way through the repertoire the way FiDi did for decades? Today we have
lieder singers who can actually sing rather than sprech-sing.
You're a real class act, Tom.
Bill
I wonder how Tom Deacon's obituary will read? Given that he was a public
figure here in Los Angeles -- program director and on-air "personality" (I
use the term loosely) for a leading listener-supported radio station, his
death will almost certainly not go unnoticed in the press.

When Andrew Breitbart died, some weeks ago, there were many people who
"memorialized" him by reprinting remarks he had made when Senator Edward
Kennedy died. These remarks did not show Mr. Breitbart in a good light.
Given that Mr. Deacon is not much kinder than Mr. Breitbart was, I can't
imagine that the same thing won't happen again.
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!!
Read about "Proty" here: http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/proty.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
Opinions expressed here are not necessarily those of my employers.
wagnerfan
2012-05-18 16:19:30 UTC
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On Fri, 18 May 2012 11:13:49 -0500, "Matthew B. Tepper"
Post by Matthew B. Tepper
letters to be typed in news:bab6c85f-23af-4b49-8d4b-
Post by wkasimer
Post by td
But frankly does anyone miss a lieder singer who huffed and puffed his
way through the repertoire the way FiDi did for decades? Today we have
lieder singers who can actually sing rather than sprech-sing.
You're a real class act, Tom.
Bill
I wonder how Tom Deacon's obituary will read? Given that he was a public
figure here in Los Angeles -- program director and on-air "personality" (I
use the term loosely) for a leading listener-supported radio station, his
death will almost certainly not go unnoticed in the press.
When Andrew Breitbart died, some weeks ago, there were many people who
"memorialized" him by reprinting remarks he had made when Senator Edward
Kennedy died. These remarks did not show Mr. Breitbart in a good light.
Given that Mr. Deacon is not much kinder than Mr. Breitbart was, I can't
imagine that the same thing won't happen again.
Ah I see Leakin' Deacon has been, expectedly, sniping at
Fischer-Dieskau. I must say this gave me a badly needed laugh today -
it's like Beckmesser going after Hans Sachs - the pathetic little
pedantic wannabe complaining about something about which he has not
the slightest comprehension or appreciation. But go after one of his
sacred cows and his panties get all twisted and you are faced with a
barrage of personal insults. What else is new??
As for Deacon's obituary -

I'm waiting.

Wagner fan
Matthew B. Tepper
2012-05-18 20:02:46 UTC
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Ah I see Leakin' Deacon has been, expectedly, sniping at Fischer-Dieskau.
I must say this gave me a badly needed laugh today - it's like Beckmesser
going after Hans Sachs - the pathetic little pedantic wannabe complaining
about something about which he has not the slightest comprehension or
appreciation. But go after one of his sacred cows and his panties get all
twisted and you are faced with a barrage of personal insults. What else is
new?? As for Deacon's obituary -
I'm waiting.
All in the fullness of time. There is no need to wish anything on him.
There is a tendency to longevity in my family.
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!!
Read about "Proty" here: http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/proty.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
Opinions expressed here are not necessarily those of my employers.
td
2012-05-18 20:27:08 UTC
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Ah I see Leakin' Deacon has been, expectedly, sniping at Fischer-Dieskau.
I must say this gave me a badly needed laugh today - it's like Beckmesser
going after Hans Sachs - the pathetic little pedantic wannabe complaining
about something about which he has not the slightest comprehension or
appreciation. But go after one of his sacred cows and his panties get all
twisted and you are faced with a barrage of personal insults. What else is
new?? As for Deacon's obituary -
I'm waiting.
All in the fullness of time.  There is no need to wish anything on him.
There is a tendency to longevity in my family.
More death wishes from the toads and the trolls.

TD
Oscar
2012-05-18 20:45:24 UTC
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Post by td
Post by wagnerfan
As for Deacon's obituary...
I'm waiting.
All in the fullness of time.  There is no need to wish anything on him.
There is a tendency to longevity in my family.
More death wishes from the toads and the trolls.
Huh? At least they say it to your face, knowing you are reading this.
Post by td
It has just been relayed to me that John Wilson, frequent contributer to the
ng, expert on Toscanini and Bruno Walter and many other things, passed away
overnight. John was a regular attendee of the annual Brucknerthons (I last
saw him Sep 1), and was always a source of great stories and opinions. We
are the poorer without him.
Well, I would be the last person to wish death upon anyone — unlike
our house duck Tepper — but I have to say that after several run-ins
with Mr. Wilson over the years, I won't miss his commentary.
He probably died believing that he knew how to spell anti-semitic!!!
Yes indeed. RIP. And good riddance as well.
<end>
td
2012-05-18 23:10:48 UTC
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Post by Oscar
Post by td
Post by wagnerfan
As for Deacon's obituary...
I'm waiting.
All in the fullness of time.  There is no need to wish anything on him.
There is a tendency to longevity in my family.
More death wishes from the toads and the trolls.
Huh? At least they say it to your face, knowing you are reading this.
Ah, so you think death wishes are OK as long as the person is still
alive?

Actually, I think the law will see such remarks in a different light.
John Wilson was spoken to by me with utter frankness and directness.
He didn't like that. Tough titties. But he ruined some of Virgil Fox's
recordings. Unforgivable amateur.

I never wished death upon the poor sap, but I wasn't about to mourn
his passing, like some hypocritical quislings one sees here.

TD
Matthew B. Tepper
2012-05-19 02:02:18 UTC
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Oscar <***@gmail.com> appears to have caused the following
letters to be typed in news:1888ee5c-7d19-4ae0-8242-c2eea7f36613
@n5g2000pbg.googlegroups.com:

[all kinds of unpleasant stuff from TD snipped]
Post by Oscar
Huh? At least they say it to your face, knowing you are reading this.
[more of his unpleasantness snipped]

TD may think that his legacy will be that piano thing, but I'm pretty sure we
all know what it actually *will* be.
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!!
Read about "Proty" here: http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/proty.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
Opinions expressed here are not necessarily those of my employers.
wagnerfan
2012-05-19 02:05:43 UTC
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On Fri, 18 May 2012 21:02:18 -0500, "Matthew B. Tepper"
Post by Matthew B. Tepper
letters to be typed in news:1888ee5c-7d19-4ae0-8242-c2eea7f36613
[all kinds of unpleasant stuff from TD snipped]
Post by Oscar
Huh? At least they say it to your face, knowing you are reading this.
[more of his unpleasantness snipped]
TD may think that his legacy will be that piano thing, but I'm pretty sure we
all know what it actually *will* be.
Oh please he even screwed up that piano thing - one of the sets has a
wrong pianist. Which is not a surprise!!!! Wagner Fan
hiker_rs
2012-05-19 04:38:34 UTC
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Post by Matthew B. Tepper
TD may think that his legacy will be that piano thing, but I'm pretty sure we
all know what it actually *will* be.
TDs cuts in the Beethoven 9th recording with Furtwangler?
Steve de Mena
2012-05-19 08:05:20 UTC
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Post by Matthew B. Tepper
Post by wkasimer
Post by td
But frankly does anyone miss a lieder singer who huffed and puffed his
way through the repertoire the way FiDi did for decades? Today we have
lieder singers who can actually sing rather than sprech-sing.
You're a real class act, Tom.
Bill
I wonder how Tom Deacon's obituary will read? Given that he was a public
figure here in Los Angeles -- program director and on-air "personality" (I
use the term loosely) for a leading listener-supported radio station, his
death will almost certainly not go unnoticed in the press.
I think it is hypocritical to say nice things about someone who died
just because they died. Ernest Fleischmann and Dick Clark come to
mind. I'm sorry they died, I would never wish that on anyone, but they
were not nice people. I gather DFD wasn't the best person either, but
I did enjoy his singing immensely and I am very sad that he has passed
on. But everyone is entitled to their own opinion.

Steve
Gerard
2012-05-19 08:33:25 UTC
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Post by Steve de Mena
Post by Matthew B. Tepper
Post by wkasimer
Post by td
But frankly does anyone miss a lieder singer who huffed and
puffed his way through the repertoire the way FiDi did for
decades? Today we have lieder singers who can actually sing
rather than sprech-sing.
You're a real class act, Tom.
Bill
I wonder how Tom Deacon's obituary will read? Given that he was a
public figure here in Los Angeles -- program director and on-air
"personality" (I use the term loosely) for a leading
listener-supported radio station, his death will almost certainly
not go unnoticed in the press.
I think it is hypocritical to say nice things about someone who died
just because they died.
It is not hypocritical at all. It's the right moment to tell about their nice
sides.
Post by Steve de Mena
Ernest Fleischmann and Dick Clark come to
mind. I'm sorry they died, I would never wish that on anyone, but they
were not nice people.
In such cases (and if you don't know nice things): tell nothing.
Post by Steve de Mena
I gather DFD wasn't the best person either, but
I did enjoy his singing immensely and I am very sad that he has passed
on. But everyone is entitled to their own opinion.
Steve
basnperson
2012-05-19 14:07:06 UTC
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Post by wkasimer
Post by td
But frankly does anyone miss a lieder singer who huffed and puffed his
way through the repertoire the way FiDi did for decades? Today we have
lieder singers who can actually sing rather than sprech-sing.
You're a real class act, Tom.
Bill
HE IS RIGHT!! Some of the worst creeps at times know what they are
talking about:-))

AB

basnperson
2012-05-19 14:04:25 UTC
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Post by td
<http://www.spiegel.de/kultur/musik/dietrich-fischer-dieskau-gestorben...>
Sad.
But frankly does anyone miss a lieder singer who huffed and puffed his
way through the repertoire the way FiDi did for decades? Today we have
lieder singers who can actually sing rather than sprech-sing.
TD
amazing that you are so 'spot on ' in this topic and be so ignorant of
piano playing:-) Maybe you dont know Schiotz but he SANG his way
through lieder and other vocal music......

AB
Mark S
2012-05-18 16:41:53 UTC
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<http://www.spiegel.de/kultur/musik/dietrich-fischer-dieskau-gestorben...>
EM
I was looking at a DG CD set in my collection yesterday and noticed
that it contains Dieskau's mono recording of Dichterliebe from the
1950s. The CD is still sealed. That recording used to be on American
Decca. It's the recording that was in our music library at KSU and was
the recording that I imprinted on for Dischterliebe. So, I was
thinking to myself yesterday, "I should give that a listen...with all
these singers dying, Fi-Di is still around."

Weird!
wagnerfan
2012-05-18 16:53:32 UTC
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On Fri, 18 May 2012 09:41:53 -0700 (PDT), Mark S
Post by Mark S
<http://www.spiegel.de/kultur/musik/dietrich-fischer-dieskau-gestorben...>
EM
I was looking at a DG CD set in my collection yesterday and noticed
that it contains Dieskau's mono recording of Dichterliebe from the
1950s. The CD is still sealed. That recording used to be on American
Decca. It's the recording that was in our music library at KSU and was
the recording that I imprinted on for Dischterliebe. So, I was
thinking to myself yesterday, "I should give that a listen...with all
these singers dying, Fi-Di is still around."
Weird!
Interestingly his stereo remake with Demus on DGG from the mid-60s
was one of the first Fischer-Dieskau recordings I ever heard- its
gorgeous.
Wagner fan
Oscar
2012-05-18 18:22:53 UTC
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Post by Mark S
I was looking at a DG CD set in my collection yesterday and noticed
that it contains Dieskau's mono recording of Dichterliebe from the
1950s. The CD is still sealed. That recording used to be on American
Decca. It's the recording that was in our music library at KSU and was
the recording that I imprinted on for Dischterliebe. So, I was
thinking to myself yesterday, "I should give that a listen...with all
these singers dying, Fi-Di is still around."
Weird!
Easy there, killer. Don't want to unseal that and put it on just yet.
Not at least for a week. To do so would be perilously close to
'religious ritual'. God forbid!
Post by Mark S
No, I just find it strange...there is something ritualistic about
this practice. As I have no contact with religion or religious ritual,
and as I tend to avoid the rituals of society as much as possible
(mostly because I am typically repelled by crowds, not drawn to them),
it follows that I would have a hard time understanding this quasi-
ritualistic practice of listening to the recordings of a musician
simply because they croaked a day or so ago.
<end>
Steve de Mena
2012-05-19 08:33:48 UTC
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Post by Mark S
<http://www.spiegel.de/kultur/musik/dietrich-fischer-dieskau-gestorben...>
EM
I was looking at a DG CD set in my collection yesterday and noticed
that it contains Dieskau's mono recording of Dichterliebe from the
1950s. The CD is still sealed.
Would that be the 9 CD "DIETRICH FISCHER-DIESKAU Early Recordings on
Deutsche Grammophon"?

http://amzn.to/JVdjch

Steve
Mark S
2012-05-18 16:59:14 UTC
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<http://www.spiegel.de/kultur/musik/dietrich-fischer-dieskau-gestorben...>
EM
While I mourn DFD's passing, I have mixed feelings about his singing.
His early work was exemplary, but he did become a barker/crooner as
his career progressed.

I heard him live twice: an all-Schumann program at Severance Hall with
Barenboim at the piano, a recital that included 14 encores, and in the
Brahms Requiem at Carnegie with Detroit under Dorati. Both experiences
were wonderful. I was taken with the fact that his rather light voice
had great carrying power in the theater.

His opera recordings are a mixed bag, with the majority of them being
non-competitive with others, IMO. This is especially true of his
Italian rep which is horribly wrong-headed.

As far as his lieder recordings, I treasure a few of them, and I
respect his championing off-the-beaten track selections over the
length of his career. He has never been my go-to singer in the
standard German song, especially in the Schubert and Schumann cycles
which were written for the tenor range and which Fi-Di often
transposed lower, a practice which to me changes the nature of the
cycles, especially n the piano part.

More troubling to me is that between Fi-Di and Schwarzkopf, the basic
approach to lieder singing was changed for the worse for a couple of
generations of singers. The crooning, barking, overly-arch "hidden
meaning behind every damn sixteenth note" style they embodied really
turned me off. Worse, it deprived us of the efforts of many great
singers who didn't bother with lieder because their heftier voices
were suddenly considered to be *non grata* in the lieder world, a
situation that has only begun to change recently, even as lighter (ie:
blander) voices continue to be favored overall.

In any case, he was an important and dedicated artist, musician AND
author. I would recommend his books on music over most of his
recordings.
wagnerfan
2012-05-18 17:06:05 UTC
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On Fri, 18 May 2012 09:59:14 -0700 (PDT), Mark S
Post by Mark S
<http://www.spiegel.de/kultur/musik/dietrich-fischer-dieskau-gestorben...>
EM
While I mourn DFD's passing, I have mixed feelings about his singing.
His early work was exemplary, but he did become a barker/crooner as
his career progressed.
I heard him live twice: an all-Schumann program at Severance Hall with
Barenboim at the piano, a recital that included 14 encores, and in the
Brahms Requiem at Carnegie with Detroit under Dorati. Both experiences
were wonderful. I was taken with the fact that his rather light voice
had great carrying power in the theater.
His opera recordings are a mixed bag, with the majority of them being
non-competitive with others, IMO. This is especially true of his
Italian rep which is horribly wrong-headed.
As far as his lieder recordings, I treasure a few of them, and I
respect his championing off-the-beaten track selections over the
length of his career. He has never been my go-to singer in the
standard German song, especially in the Schubert and Schumann cycles
which were written for the tenor range and which Fi-Di often
transposed lower, a practice which to me changes the nature of the
cycles, especially n the piano part.
More troubling to me is that between Fi-Di and Schwarzkopf, the basic
approach to lieder singing was changed for the worse for a couple of
generations of singers. The crooning, barking, overly-arch "hidden
meaning behind every damn sixteenth note" style they embodied really
turned me off. Worse, it deprived us of the efforts of many great
singers who didn't bother with lieder because their heftier voices
were suddenly considered to be *non grata* in the lieder world, a
blander) voices continue to be favored overall.
In any case, he was an important and dedicated artist, musician AND
author. I would recommend his books on music over most of his
recordings.
Interesting - which singers would have gone into the Lieder repertory
had it not been for the baleful influence of Fischer-Dieskau and
Schwarzkopf??? Wagner fan
Mark S
2012-05-18 17:32:43 UTC
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Post by wagnerfan
On Fri, 18 May 2012 09:59:14 -0700 (PDT), Mark S
Post by Mark S
<http://www.spiegel.de/kultur/musik/dietrich-fischer-dieskau-gestorben...>
EM
While I mourn DFD's passing, I have mixed feelings about his singing.
His early work was exemplary, but he did become a barker/crooner as
his career progressed.
I heard him live twice: an all-Schumann program at Severance Hall with
Barenboim at the piano, a recital that included 14 encores, and in the
Brahms Requiem at Carnegie with Detroit under Dorati. Both experiences
were wonderful. I was taken with the fact that his rather light voice
had great carrying power in the theater.
His opera recordings are a mixed bag, with the majority of them being
non-competitive with others, IMO. This is especially true of his
Italian rep which is horribly wrong-headed.
As far as his lieder recordings, I treasure a few of them, and I
respect his championing off-the-beaten track selections over the
length of his career. He has never been my go-to singer in the
standard German song, especially in the Schubert and Schumann cycles
which were written for the tenor range and which Fi-Di often
transposed lower, a practice which to me changes the nature of the
cycles, especially n the piano part.
More troubling to me is that  between Fi-Di and Schwarzkopf, the basic
approach to lieder singing was changed for the worse for a couple of
generations of singers. The crooning, barking, overly-arch "hidden
meaning behind every damn sixteenth note" style they embodied really
turned me off. Worse, it deprived us of the efforts of many great
singers who didn't bother with lieder because their heftier voices
were suddenly considered to be *non grata* in the lieder world, a
blander) voices continue to be favored overall.
In any case, he was an important and dedicated artist, musician AND
author. I would recommend his books on music over most of his
recordings.
 Interesting - which singers would have gone into the Lieder repertory
had it not been for the baleful influence of Fischer-Dieskau and
Schwarzkopf???  Wagner fan
I wouldn't presume to name names.

I would only point out that many "operatic voices" made lieder
recordings back in the day. I'm thinking of voices like Thill, Kipnis,
Roswaenge, Schorr, Bjoerling, Flagstad and others who recorded
lieder...and they didn't croon their way through it, either! What
modern tenor equivalent, for instance, of a Georges Thill or Jussi
Bjoerling made lieder recordings during the Fi-Di era?

What I'm saying is that large-ish voice singers didn't shy away from
lieder back in the day, and that had the field not contracted to
accept only the Fi-Di/Schwarzkopf model, we might have had more
variety and style when it came to lieder. It's not a matter "going
into the lieder rep" as a major focus of one's career. It's a matter
of including it at all in performances and on recordings.
wkasimer
2012-05-18 17:48:51 UTC
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Post by Mark S
What
modern tenor equivalent, for instance, of a Georges Thill or Jussi
Bjoerling made lieder recordings during the Fi-Di era?
There are two possible answers:

1) Gedda.

2) There weren't any tenor equivalents to Thill and Bjoerling during
the DFD era.

Bill
Matthew B. Tepper
2012-05-18 20:02:46 UTC
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wkasimer <***@comcast.net> appears to have caused the following letters
to be typed in news:1bc2d554-2920-4f5d-9778-
Post by wkasimer
Post by Mark S
What
modern tenor equivalent, for instance, of a Georges Thill or Jussi
Bjoerling made lieder recordings during the Fi-Di era?
1) Gedda.
2) There weren't any tenor equivalents to Thill and Bjoerling during
the DFD era.
Aksel Schiøtz, pre-stroke? Although that may be stretching a bit.
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!!
Read about "Proty" here: http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/proty.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
Opinions expressed here are not necessarily those of my employers.
wkasimer
2012-05-18 20:18:16 UTC
Reply
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Post by Matthew B. Tepper
to be typed in news:1bc2d554-2920-4f5d-9778-
Post by wkasimer
Post by Mark S
What
modern tenor equivalent, for instance, of a Georges Thill or Jussi
Bjoerling made lieder recordings during the Fi-Di era?
1) Gedda.
2) There weren't any tenor equivalents to Thill and Bjoerling during
the DFD era.
Aksel Schiøtz, pre-stroke?  Although that may be stretching a bit.
To the breaking point. Schiotz's stroke was in 1945...

Bill
Matthew B. Tepper
2012-05-19 02:02:17 UTC
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wkasimer <***@comcast.net> appears to have caused the following
letters to be typed in news:6e92d3e9-7da0-4563-97b2-cab38f985f33
Post by wkasimer
letters to be typed in news:1bc2d554-2920-4f5d-9778-
Post by wkasimer
What modern tenor equivalent, for instance, of a Georges Thill or
Jussi Bjoerling made lieder recordings during the Fi-Di era?
1) Gedda.
2) There weren't any tenor equivalents to Thill and Bjoerling during
the DFD era.
Aksel Schiøtz, pre-stroke?  Although that may be stretching a bit.
To the breaking point. Schiotz's stroke was in 1945...
Bill
You're right; I guess I had thought it was some years later.
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!!
Read about "Proty" here: http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/proty.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
Opinions expressed here are not necessarily those of my employers.
wagnerfan
2012-05-18 18:17:29 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
On Fri, 18 May 2012 10:32:43 -0700 (PDT), Mark S
Post by Mark S
Post by wagnerfan
On Fri, 18 May 2012 09:59:14 -0700 (PDT), Mark S
Post by Mark S
<http://www.spiegel.de/kultur/musik/dietrich-fischer-dieskau-gestorben...>
EM
While I mourn DFD's passing, I have mixed feelings about his singing.
His early work was exemplary, but he did become a barker/crooner as
his career progressed.
I heard him live twice: an all-Schumann program at Severance Hall with
Barenboim at the piano, a recital that included 14 encores, and in the
Brahms Requiem at Carnegie with Detroit under Dorati. Both experiences
were wonderful. I was taken with the fact that his rather light voice
had great carrying power in the theater.
His opera recordings are a mixed bag, with the majority of them being
non-competitive with others, IMO. This is especially true of his
Italian rep which is horribly wrong-headed.
As far as his lieder recordings, I treasure a few of them, and I
respect his championing off-the-beaten track selections over the
length of his career. He has never been my go-to singer in the
standard German song, especially in the Schubert and Schumann cycles
which were written for the tenor range and which Fi-Di often
transposed lower, a practice which to me changes the nature of the
cycles, especially n the piano part.
More troubling to me is that  between Fi-Di and Schwarzkopf, the basic
approach to lieder singing was changed for the worse for a couple of
generations of singers. The crooning, barking, overly-arch "hidden
meaning behind every damn sixteenth note" style they embodied really
turned me off. Worse, it deprived us of the efforts of many great
singers who didn't bother with lieder because their heftier voices
were suddenly considered to be *non grata* in the lieder world, a
blander) voices continue to be favored overall.
In any case, he was an important and dedicated artist, musician AND
author. I would recommend his books on music over most of his
recordings.
 Interesting - which singers would have gone into the Lieder repertory
had it not been for the baleful influence of Fischer-Dieskau and
Schwarzkopf???  Wagner fan
I wouldn't presume to name names.
I would only point out that many "operatic voices" made lieder
recordings back in the day. I'm thinking of voices like Thill, Kipnis,
Roswaenge, Schorr, Bjoerling, Flagstad and others who recorded
lieder...and they didn't croon their way through it, either! What
modern tenor equivalent, for instance, of a Georges Thill or Jussi
Bjoerling made lieder recordings during the Fi-Di era?
What I'm saying is that large-ish voice singers didn't shy away from
lieder back in the day, and that had the field not contracted to
accept only the Fi-Di/Schwarzkopf model, we might have had more
variety and style when it came to lieder. It's not a matter "going
into the lieder rep" as a major focus of one's career. It's a matter
of including it at all in performances and on recordings.
Mark - you just said that a whole generation of large voiced singers
backed way from performing Lieder due to the influence of Fi-Di and
Schwarzkopf - I have heard this allegation before, have yet to see any
proof and still haven't received it . There were certainly many
singers just as popular as those two singing at the same time who were
just as successful and who were very different types of
interpreters(I'm not talking recording contracts which I shouldn't
have to tell you is a whole different matter - I'm talking sold-out
houses). There were Prey, Ameling, de los Angeles, Souzay and Gedda
just off the top of my head. You are assuming it was because of Fi-Di
and Schwarzkopf that some singers (I really have no idea who you might
mean) didn't perform Lieder - I don't see how one necessarily follows
the other. Wagner fan
Mark S
2012-05-18 18:34:27 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
  Mark - you just said that a whole generation of large voiced singers
backed way from performing Lieder due to the influence of Fi-Di and
Schwarzkopf - I have heard this allegation before, have yet to see any
proof and still haven't received it . There were certainly many
singers just as popular as those two singing at the same time who were
just as successful and who were very different types of
interpreters(I'm not talking recording contracts which I shouldn't
have to tell you is a whole different matter - I'm talking sold-out
houses). There were Prey, Ameling, de los Angeles, Souzay and Gedda
just off the top of my head. You are assuming it was because of Fi-Di
and Schwarzkopf that some singers (I really have no idea who you might
mean) didn't perform Lieder - I don't see how one necessarily follows
the other.   Wagner fan
When took master classes with Jan Peerce, he bemoaned the death of
the song recital. He said that he did quite a few of them in his day,
but that opera singers in song recitals were out of fashion in the
1970s. As if to prove the exception to the rule, a few years later I
heard Peerce and Roberta Peters in a joint recital at EJ Thomas Hall
in Akron, Oh, where Peerce sang a few art songs.

When I worked at The Met, I got to know Bernd Weikl a bit. His two big
complaints were that the Met would cast him only in German repertoire
(he wanted to do some of the Italian rep), and that nobody seemed
interested in his wanting to sing and record lieder (later, DG did
record Weikl in some lieder by Loewe).

Now, those two had big voices.

The singers you mention - Prey, Ameling, de los Angeles, Souzay and
Gedda - while certainly operatic singers are all on the lighter side
of the vocal spectrum. We're not talking Kipnis or Flagstad here.
Gedda was a master of almost all trades vocal, so it only stands to
reason that he would record and perform lieder as well.
wagnerfan
2012-05-18 18:51:20 UTC
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On Fri, 18 May 2012 11:34:27 -0700 (PDT), Mark S
Post by Mark S
  Mark - you just said that a whole generation of large voiced singers
backed way from performing Lieder due to the influence of Fi-Di and
Schwarzkopf - I have heard this allegation before, have yet to see any
proof and still haven't received it . There were certainly many
singers just as popular as those two singing at the same time who were
just as successful and who were very different types of
interpreters(I'm not talking recording contracts which I shouldn't
have to tell you is a whole different matter - I'm talking sold-out
houses). There were Prey, Ameling, de los Angeles, Souzay and Gedda
just off the top of my head. You are assuming it was because of Fi-Di
and Schwarzkopf that some singers (I really have no idea who you might
mean) didn't perform Lieder - I don't see how one necessarily follows
the other.   Wagner fan
When took master classes with Jan Peerce, he bemoaned the death of
the song recital. He said that he did quite a few of them in his day,
but that opera singers in song recitals were out of fashion in the
1970s. As if to prove the exception to the rule, a few years later I
heard Peerce and Roberta Peters in a joint recital at EJ Thomas Hall
in Akron, Oh, where Peerce sang a few art songs.
When I worked at The Met, I got to know Bernd Weikl a bit. His two big
complaints were that the Met would cast him only in German repertoire
(he wanted to do some of the Italian rep), and that nobody seemed
interested in his wanting to sing and record lieder (later, DG did
record Weikl in some lieder by Loewe).
Now, those two had big voices.
The singers you mention - Prey, Ameling, de los Angeles, Souzay and
Gedda - while certainly operatic singers are all on the lighter side
of the vocal spectrum. We're not talking Kipnis or Flagstad here.
Gedda was a master of almost all trades vocal, so it only stands to
reason that he would record and perform lieder as well.
Yes but Mark there were no Kipnis or Flagstads at that time - I think
you are mixing up the slow demise of the big voiced singers you
mention (don't get me wrong I'm a fan - I enjoy Lieder back to the
earliest days of recordings) with some kind of influence by Fi-Di and
Schwarzkopf. I also knew Weikll when he sang Sachs at Bayreuth - nice
person but that voice was no Kipnis either.

You probably know of the wonderful EMI sets of historic Schubert
Lieder (which was transferred to CD without the wonderful book)and
Schumann/Brahms Lieder (not yet transferred). Those give a wonderful
retrospective on the way different singers handled this repertory.

Wagner fan
Oscar
2012-05-18 18:56:04 UTC
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Post by wagnerfan
You probably know of the wonderful EMI sets of historic Schubert
Lieder (which was transferred to CD without the wonderful book)and
Schumann/Brahms Lieder (not yet transferred). Those give a wonderful
retrospective on the way different singers handled this repertory.
I recently acquired the two EMI historical Schubert sets (along with
Preiser's 2CD set of similar programming), what incredible singing!
whiskynsplash
2012-05-18 21:37:47 UTC
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Post by Oscar
Post by wagnerfan
You probably know of the wonderful EMI sets of historic Schubert
Lieder (which was transferred to CD without the wonderful book)and
Schumann/Brahms Lieder (not yet transferred). Those give a wonderful
retrospective on the way different singers handled this repertory.
I recently acquired the two EMI historical Schubert sets (along with
Preiser's 2CD set of similar programming), what incredible singing!
There's also a huge collection of lieder, and this is not just German
Lieder, but also lieder from other countries, which was pianist
Michael Raucheisen's project in Berlin during the Second World War.
This was to have been some sort of Encyclopedia of Song and it
employed some of the best singers of that period. One of the few good
things that emerged from Berlin Radio during the War years.

http://www.allmusic.com/artist/michael-raucheisen-q47824/biography

From Wikipedia: From 1933 he strove to create a complete catalogue of
German language songs on gramophone recordings, for which, from 1940,
he became head of the departmentment of Song and Chamber-music at the
Berlin Rundfunk, for the organization of the studios there.
wkasimer
2012-05-18 21:49:51 UTC
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Post by whiskynsplash
There's also a huge collection of lieder, and this is not just German
Lieder, but also lieder from other countries, which was pianist
Michael Raucheisen's project in Berlin during the Second World War.
This was to have been some sort of Encyclopedia of Song and it
employed some of the best singers of that period. One of the few good
things that emerged from Berlin Radio during the War years.
http://www.amazon.com/Man-Piano-Collection-Raucheisen-accompanist/dp/B000BBQP5M/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1337377744&sr=8-1

Bill
wagnerfan
2012-05-18 22:01:26 UTC
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On Fri, 18 May 2012 14:49:51 -0700 (PDT), wkasimer
Post by wkasimer
Post by whiskynsplash
There's also a huge collection of lieder, and this is not just German
Lieder, but also lieder from other countries, which was pianist
Michael Raucheisen's project in Berlin during the Second World War.
This was to have been some sort of Encyclopedia of Song and it
employed some of the best singers of that period. One of the few good
things that emerged from Berlin Radio during the War years.
http://www.amazon.com/Man-Piano-Collection-Raucheisen-accompanist/dp/B000BBQP5M/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1337377744&sr=8-1
Bill
It's also available commercially in Europe as MP3 files though its
not the whole shebang. One possible downside for some is that a lot
of the songs are really obscure and if you don't know German it may be
tough to follow. Also Rauchheisen was not exactly Gerald Moore but the
project itself was pretty impressive.
Wagner fan
Steve de Mena
2012-05-19 10:37:03 UTC
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Post by Oscar
Post by wagnerfan
You probably know of the wonderful EMI sets of historic Schubert
Lieder (which was transferred to CD without the wonderful book)and
Schumann/Brahms Lieder (not yet transferred). Those give a wonderful
retrospective on the way different singers handled this repertory.
I recently acquired the two EMI historical Schubert sets
Which ones are those, could you post an Amazon URL?

Thanks,

Steve
Kirk McElhearn <kirkmc (at) mac (dot) com>
2012-05-19 10:59:23 UTC
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Post by Steve de Mena
Post by Oscar
Post by wagnerfan
You probably know of the wonderful EMI sets of historic Schubert
Lieder (which was transferred to CD without the wonderful book)and
Schumann/Brahms Lieder (not yet transferred). Those give a wonderful
retrospective on the way different singers handled this repertory.
I recently acquired the two EMI historical Schubert sets
Which ones are those, could you post an Amazon URL?
I assume he means these two:

http://amzn.to/L1QK6T

http://amzn.to/Jrl72F

Both wonderful sets.

Kirk
--
Kirkville -- http://www.mcelhearn.com
Writings about more than just Macs
Take Control of iTunes 10: The FAQ: http://www.mcelhearn.com/itunes
wagnerfan
2012-05-19 11:09:57 UTC
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On Sat, 19 May 2012 12:59:23 +0200, Kirk McElhearn <kirkmc (at) mac
Post by Kirk McElhearn <kirkmc (at) mac (dot) com>
Post by Steve de Mena
Post by Oscar
Post by wagnerfan
You probably know of the wonderful EMI sets of historic Schubert
Lieder (which was transferred to CD without the wonderful book)and
Schumann/Brahms Lieder (not yet transferred). Those give a wonderful
retrospective on the way different singers handled this repertory.
I recently acquired the two EMI historical Schubert sets
Which ones are those, could you post an Amazon URL?
http://amzn.to/L1QK6T
http://amzn.to/Jrl72F
Both wonderful sets.
Kirk
Actually those were not the sets I was discussing in the context of
the changing historic ways Schubert was presented. It was originally
an eight LP set with a copious booklet late transferred to two CD sets
- here is the URL for Vol.1

http://www.amazon.com/Schubert-Lieder-Record-Vol-1898-1939/dp/B000005GTK/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1337425460&sr=8-1

and here is 2

http://www.amazon.com/Schubert-Vol-Lieder-Record-1898-1952/dp/B000005GTL/ref=sr_1_14?ie=UTF8&qid=1337425693&sr=8-14

really fascinating

Wagner fan
wagnerfan
2012-05-19 11:20:11 UTC
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Post by wagnerfan
On Sat, 19 May 2012 12:59:23 +0200, Kirk McElhearn <kirkmc (at) mac
Post by Kirk McElhearn <kirkmc (at) mac (dot) com>
Post by Steve de Mena
Post by Oscar
Post by wagnerfan
You probably know of the wonderful EMI sets of historic Schubert
Lieder (which was transferred to CD without the wonderful book)and
Schumann/Brahms Lieder (not yet transferred). Those give a wonderful
retrospective on the way different singers handled this repertory.
I recently acquired the two EMI historical Schubert sets
Which ones are those, could you post an Amazon URL?
http://amzn.to/L1QK6T
http://amzn.to/Jrl72F
Both wonderful sets.
Kirk
Actually those were not the sets I was discussing in the context of
the changing historic ways Schubert was presented. It was originally
an eight LP set with a copious booklet late transferred to two CD sets
- here is the URL for Vol.1
http://www.amazon.com/Schubert-Lieder-Record-Vol-1898-1939/dp/B000005GTK/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1337425460&sr=8-1
and here is 2
http://www.amazon.com/Schubert-Vol-Lieder-Record-1898-1952/dp/B000005GTL/ref=sr_1_14?ie=UTF8&qid=1337425693&sr=8-14
really fascinating
Wagner fan
Was it 5 or more years ago that Amazon had a misprice for the MP3 of
the big 21 CD Fi-Di Schubert box - I forget the price but it was
soemthing like 14.99 or something like that??? I know alot of people
jumped on that

Wagner fan
Kirk McElhearn <kirkmc (at) mac (dot) com>
2012-05-19 11:24:15 UTC
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Post by wagnerfan
Was it 5 or more years ago that Amazon had a misprice for the MP3 of
the big 21 CD Fi-Di Schubert box - I forget the price but it was
soemthing like 14.99 or something like that??? I know alot of people
jumped on that
I recall it was less than $20. It's currently around $32.50, which is
still a huge bargain:

http://amzn.to/JFA0D1

Kirk
--
Kirkville -- http://www.mcelhearn.com
Writings about more than just Macs
Take Control of iTunes 10: The FAQ: http://www.mcelhearn.com/itunes
wagnerfan
2012-05-19 11:27:00 UTC
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On Sat, 19 May 2012 13:24:15 +0200, Kirk McElhearn <kirkmc (at) mac
Post by Kirk McElhearn <kirkmc (at) mac (dot) com>
Post by wagnerfan
Was it 5 or more years ago that Amazon had a misprice for the MP3 of
the big 21 CD Fi-Di Schubert box - I forget the price but it was
soemthing like 14.99 or something like that??? I know alot of people
jumped on that
I recall it was less than $20. It's currently around $32.50, which is
http://amzn.to/JFA0D1
Kirk
No Kirk thats just the three cycles - here is the big set and check
out the MP3 price now


http://www.amazon.com/Schubert-Lieder/dp/B000VHITN2/ref=sr_1_7?ie=UTF8&qid=1337426784&s=dmusic&sr=1-7

Wagner fan
Kirk McElhearn <kirkmc (at) mac (dot) com>
2012-05-19 12:05:38 UTC
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Post by wagnerfan
No Kirk thats just the three cycles - here is the big set and check
out the MP3 price now
You're right; my bad.

Yes, that's a steep price for the MP3s. The CDs have been cheaper than
that at times.

Kirk
--
Kirkville -- http://www.mcelhearn.com
Writings about more than just Macs
Take Control of iTunes 10: The FAQ: http://www.mcelhearn.com/itunes
wagnerfan
2012-05-19 11:29:32 UTC
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On Sat, 19 May 2012 13:24:15 +0200, Kirk McElhearn <kirkmc (at) mac
Post by Kirk McElhearn <kirkmc (at) mac (dot) com>
Post by wagnerfan
Was it 5 or more years ago that Amazon had a misprice for the MP3 of
the big 21 CD Fi-Di Schubert box - I forget the price but it was
soemthing like 14.99 or something like that??? I know alot of people
jumped on that
I recall it was less than $20. It's currently around $32.50, which is
http://amzn.to/JFA0D1
Kirk
Interesting - the actual box is for only the three cycles but the
breakdown is the 21 CD set!!!!!!!!!!! I wonder which you will get when
you buy!!!!! It could be a greatbargain!!!

Wagner fan
Kirk McElhearn <kirkmc (at) mac (dot) com>
2012-05-19 12:07:17 UTC
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Post by wagnerfan
Interesting - the actual box is for only the three cycles but the
breakdown is the 21 CD set!!!!!!!!!!! I wonder which you will get when
you buy!!!!! It could be a greatbargain!!!
Ah, no. It's not the three cycles. It's Lieder, then the three cycles;
it's the whole thing.

For some reason they released it with a different cover in 2010, and on
CD it's only $60:

http://amzn.to/JEpJJj

So I was right. :-)

Kirk
--
Kirkville -- http://www.mcelhearn.com
Writings about more than just Macs
Take Control of iTunes 10: The FAQ: http://www.mcelhearn.com/itunes
wagnerfan
2012-05-19 12:43:40 UTC
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On Sat, 19 May 2012 14:07:17 +0200, Kirk McElhearn <kirkmc (at) mac
Post by Kirk McElhearn <kirkmc (at) mac (dot) com>
Post by wagnerfan
Interesting - the actual box is for only the three cycles but the
breakdown is the 21 CD set!!!!!!!!!!! I wonder which you will get when
you buy!!!!! It could be a greatbargain!!!
Ah, no. It's not the three cycles. It's Lieder, then the three cycles;
it's the whole thing.
For some reason they released it with a different cover in 2010, and on
http://amzn.to/JEpJJj
So I was right. :-)
Kirk
Yes you sure were and a bargain it is Wagner fan
MiNe 109
2012-05-19 12:05:46 UTC
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Post by Kirk McElhearn <kirkmc (at) mac (dot) com>
Post by wagnerfan
Was it 5 or more years ago that Amazon had a misprice for the MP3 of
the big 21 CD Fi-Di Schubert box - I forget the price but it was
soemthing like 14.99 or something like that??? I know alot of people
jumped on that
I recall it was less than $20. It's currently around $32.50, which is
http://amzn.to/JFA0D1
I got it for $4.98. IIRC, the offer was for excerpts but the resulting
download was the complete collection.

Stephen
td
2012-05-18 20:25:30 UTC
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Post by wagnerfan
On Fri, 18 May 2012 11:34:27 -0700 (PDT), Mark S
Post by wagnerfan
Mark - you just said that a whole generation of large voiced singers
backed way from performing Lieder due to the influence of Fi-Di and
Schwarzkopf - I have heard this allegation before, have yet to see any
proof and still haven't received it . There were certainly many
singers just as popular as those two singing at the same time who were
just as successful and who were very different types of
interpreters(I'm not talking recording contracts which I shouldn't
have to tell you is a whole different matter - I'm talking sold-out
houses). There were Prey, Ameling, de los Angeles, Souzay and Gedda
just off the top of my head. You are assuming it was because of Fi-Di
and Schwarzkopf that some singers (I really have no idea who you might
mean) didn't perform Lieder - I don't see how one necessarily follows
the other. Wagner fan
When  took master classes with Jan Peerce, he bemoaned the death of
the song recital. He said that he did quite a few of them in his day,
but that opera singers in song recitals were out of fashion in the
1970s. As if to prove the exception to the rule, a few years later I
heard Peerce and Roberta Peters in a joint recital at EJ Thomas Hall
in Akron, Oh, where Peerce sang a few art songs.
When I worked at The Met, I got to know Bernd Weikl a bit. His two big
complaints were that the Met would cast him only in German repertoire
(he wanted to do some of the Italian rep), and that nobody seemed
interested in his wanting to sing and record lieder (later, DG did
record Weikl in some lieder by Loewe).
Now, those two had big voices.
The singers you mention - Prey, Ameling, de los Angeles, Souzay and
Gedda - while certainly operatic singers are all on the lighter side
of the vocal spectrum. We're not talking Kipnis or Flagstad here.
Gedda was a master of almost all trades vocal, so it only stands to
reason that he would record and perform lieder as well.
 Yes but Mark there were no Kipnis or Flagstads at that time - I think
you are mixing up the slow demise of the big voiced singers you
mention (don't get me wrong I'm a fan - I enjoy Lieder back to the
earliest days of recordings) with some kind of influence by Fi-Di and
Schwarzkopf. I also knew Weikll when he sang Sachs at Bayreuth - nice
person but that voice was no Kipnis either.
I guess you have never heard of Leontyne Price? How about Bubbles
Silverman? Joan Sutherland?

And you call yourself an opera queen? Back to school, baby.

TD
JohnGavin
2012-05-18 20:49:18 UTC
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  Mark - you just said that a whole generation of large voiced singers
backed way from performing Lieder due to the influence of Fi-Di and
Schwarzkopf - I have heard this allegation before, have yet to see any
proof and still haven't received it . There were certainly many
singers just as popular as those two singing at the same time who were
just as successful and who were very different types of
interpreters(I'm not talking recording contracts which I shouldn't
have to tell you is a whole different matter - I'm talking sold-out
houses). There were Prey, Ameling, de los Angeles, Souzay and Gedda
just off the top of my head. You are assuming it was because of Fi-Di
and Schwarzkopf that some singers (I really have no idea who you might
mean) didn't perform Lieder - I don't see how one necessarily follows
the other.   Wagner fan
When  took master classes with Jan Peerce, he bemoaned the death of
the song recital. He said that he did quite a few of them in his day,
but that opera singers in song recitals were out of fashion in the
1970s. As if to prove the exception to the rule, a few years later I
heard Peerce and Roberta Peters in a joint recital at EJ Thomas Hall
in Akron, Oh, where Peerce sang a few art songs.
When I worked at The Met, I got to know Bernd Weikl a bit. His two big
complaints were that the Met would cast him only in German repertoire
(he wanted to do some of the Italian rep), and that nobody seemed
interested in his wanting to sing and record lieder (later, DG did
record Weikl in some lieder by Loewe).
Now, those two had big voices.
The singers you mention - Prey, Ameling, de los Angeles, Souzay and
Gedda - while certainly operatic singers are all on the lighter side
of the vocal spectrum.
Was Elly Ameling an opera singer (other than the smaller Mozart
operas) and then only on recordings?
I'm not aware of any other opera from her.
wkasimer
2012-05-18 21:50:34 UTC
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Post by JohnGavin
Was Elly Ameling an opera singer (other than the smaller Mozart
operas) and then only on recordings?
I'm not aware of any other opera from her.
I believe that she was exclusively a recitalist.

Bill
wagnerfan
2012-05-18 22:10:23 UTC
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On Fri, 18 May 2012 14:50:34 -0700 (PDT), wkasimer
Post by wkasimer
Post by JohnGavin
Was Elly Ameling an opera singer (other than the smaller Mozart
operas) and then only on recordings?
I'm not aware of any other opera from her.
I believe that she was exclusively a recitalist.
Bill
No she sang Ilia in Idomeneo in Washington in 1974

Wagner fan
wkasimer
2012-05-18 20:53:27 UTC
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Post by Mark S
When I worked at The Met, I got to know Bernd Weikl a bit. His two big
complaints were that the Met would cast him only in German repertoire
(he wanted to do some of the Italian rep),
Well, he was in good company - Melchior had the same complaint, as I
recall.
Post by Mark S
and that nobody seemed
interested in his wanting to sing and record lieder (later, DG did
record Weikl in some lieder by Loewe).
I believe that Weikl's sole DG disc was Richard Strauss, recorded in
the late 1970's. He recorded Loewe for Eurodisc.

Bill
Mark S
2012-05-19 00:55:00 UTC
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Post by wkasimer
I believe that Weikl's sole DG disc was Richard Strauss, recorded in
the late 1970's.  He recorded Loewe for Eurodisc.
You're correct. Thanks for the refresher.
Matthew B. Tepper
2012-05-19 02:02:18 UTC
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wkasimer <***@comcast.net> appears to have caused the following
letters to be typed in news:4b179557-f872-477d-b280-
Post by wkasimer
Post by Mark S
When I worked at The Met, I got to know Bernd Weikl a bit. His two big
complaints were that the Met would cast him only in German repertoire
(he wanted to do some of the Italian rep),
Well, he was in good company - Melchior had the same complaint, as I
recall.
Not to mention that Monteux didn't like being pigeonholed as a conductor of
French opera only.
Post by wkasimer
Post by Mark S
and that nobody seemed interested in his wanting to sing and record
lieder (later, DG did record Weikl in some lieder by Loewe).
I believe that Weikl's sole DG disc was Richard Strauss, recorded in
the late 1970's. He recorded Loewe for Eurodisc.
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!!
Read about "Proty" here: http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/proty.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
Opinions expressed here are not necessarily those of my employers.
td
2012-05-18 20:22:51 UTC
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Post by wagnerfan
On Fri, 18 May 2012 10:32:43 -0700 (PDT), Mark S
Post by Mark S
Post by wagnerfan
On Fri, 18 May 2012 09:59:14 -0700 (PDT), Mark S
Post by Mark S
<http://www.spiegel.de/kultur/musik/dietrich-fischer-dieskau-gestorben...>
EM
While I mourn DFD's passing, I have mixed feelings about his singing.
His early work was exemplary, but he did become a barker/crooner as
his career progressed.
I heard him live twice: an all-Schumann program at Severance Hall with
Barenboim at the piano, a recital that included 14 encores, and in the
Brahms Requiem at Carnegie with Detroit under Dorati. Both experiences
were wonderful. I was taken with the fact that his rather light voice
had great carrying power in the theater.
His opera recordings are a mixed bag, with the majority of them being
non-competitive with others, IMO. This is especially true of his
Italian rep which is horribly wrong-headed.
As far as his lieder recordings, I treasure a few of them, and I
respect his championing off-the-beaten track selections over the
length of his career. He has never been my go-to singer in the
standard German song, especially in the Schubert and Schumann cycles
which were written for the tenor range and which Fi-Di often
transposed lower, a practice which to me changes the nature of the
cycles, especially n the piano part.
More troubling to me is that between Fi-Di and Schwarzkopf, the basic
approach to lieder singing was changed for the worse for a couple of
generations of singers. The crooning, barking, overly-arch "hidden
meaning behind every damn sixteenth note" style they embodied really
turned me off. Worse, it deprived us of the efforts of many great
singers who didn't bother with lieder because their heftier voices
were suddenly considered to be *non grata* in the lieder world, a
blander) voices continue to be favored overall.
In any case, he was an important and dedicated artist, musician AND
author. I would recommend his books on music over most of his
recordings.
Interesting - which singers would have gone into the Lieder repertory
had it not been for the baleful influence of Fischer-Dieskau and
Schwarzkopf??? Wagner fan
I wouldn't presume to name names.
I would only point out that many "operatic voices" made lieder
recordings back in the day. I'm thinking of voices like Thill, Kipnis,
Roswaenge, Schorr, Bjoerling, Flagstad and others who recorded
lieder...and they didn't croon their way through it, either! What
modern tenor equivalent, for instance, of a Georges Thill or Jussi
Bjoerling made lieder recordings during the Fi-Di era?
What I'm saying is that large-ish voice singers didn't shy away from
lieder back in the day, and that had the field not contracted to
accept only the Fi-Di/Schwarzkopf model, we might have had more
variety and style when it came to lieder. It's not a matter "going
into the lieder rep" as a major focus of one's career. It's a matter
of including it at all in performances and on recordings.
  Mark - you just said that a whole generation of large voiced singers
backed way from performing Lieder due to the influence of Fi-Di and
Schwarzkopf - I have heard this allegation before, have yet to see any
proof and still haven't received it . There were certainly many
singers just as popular as those two singing at the same time who were
just as successful and who were very different types of
interpreters(I'm not talking recording contracts which I shouldn't
have to tell you is a whole different matter - I'm talking sold-out
houses). There were Prey, Ameling, de los Angeles, Souzay and Gedda
just off the top of my head. You are assuming it was because of Fi-Di
and Schwarzkopf that some singers (I really have no idea who you might
mean) didn't perform Lieder - I don't see how one necessarily follows
the other.
Because you're stupid, Dickey.

TD
basnperson
2012-05-19 13:57:33 UTC
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Post by wagnerfan
On Fri, 18 May 2012 10:32:43 -0700 (PDT), Mark S
Post by Mark S
Post by wagnerfan
On Fri, 18 May 2012 09:59:14 -0700 (PDT), Mark S
Post by Mark S
<http://www.spiegel.de/kultur/musik/dietrich-fischer-dieskau-gestorben...>
EM
While I mourn DFD's passing, I have mixed feelings about his singing.
His early work was exemplary, but he did become a barker/crooner as
his career progressed.
I heard him live twice: an all-Schumann program at Severance Hall with
Barenboim at the piano, a recital that included 14 encores, and in the
Brahms Requiem at Carnegie with Detroit under Dorati. Both experiences
were wonderful. I was taken with the fact that his rather light voice
had great carrying power in the theater.
His opera recordings are a mixed bag, with the majority of them being
non-competitive with others, IMO. This is especially true of his
Italian rep which is horribly wrong-headed.
As far as his lieder recordings, I treasure a few of them, and I
respect his championing off-the-beaten track selections over the
length of his career. He has never been my go-to singer in the
standard German song, especially in the Schubert and Schumann cycles
which were written for the tenor range and which Fi-Di often
transposed lower, a practice which to me changes the nature of the
cycles, especially n the piano part.
More troubling to me is that between Fi-Di and Schwarzkopf, the basic
approach to lieder singing was changed for the worse for a couple of
generations of singers. The crooning, barking, overly-arch "hidden
meaning behind every damn sixteenth note" style they embodied really
turned me off. Worse, it deprived us of the efforts of many great
singers who didn't bother with lieder because their heftier voices
were suddenly considered to be *non grata* in the lieder world, a
blander) voices continue to be favored overall.
In any case, he was an important and dedicated artist, musician AND
author. I would recommend his books on music over most of his
recordings.
Interesting - which singers would have gone into the Lieder repertory
had it not been for the baleful influence of Fischer-Dieskau and
Schwarzkopf??? Wagner fan
I wouldn't presume to name names.
I would only point out that many "operatic voices" made lieder
recordings back in the day. I'm thinking of voices like Thill, Kipnis,
Roswaenge, Schorr, Bjoerling, Flagstad and others who recorded
lieder...and they didn't croon their way through it, either! What
modern tenor equivalent, for instance, of a Georges Thill or Jussi
Bjoerling made lieder recordings during the Fi-Di era?
What I'm saying is that large-ish voice singers didn't shy away from
lieder back in the day, and that had the field not contracted to
accept only the Fi-Di/Schwarzkopf model, we might have had more
variety and style when it came to lieder. It's not a matter "going
into the lieder rep" as a major focus of one's career. It's a matter
of including it at all in performances and on recordings.
  Mark - you just said that a whole generation of large voiced singers
backed way from performing Lieder due to the influence of Fi-Di and
Schwarzkopf - I have heard this allegation before, have yet to see any
proof and still haven't received it . There were certainly many
singers just as popular as those two singing at the same time who were
just as successful and who were very different types of
interpreters(I'm not talking recording contracts which I shouldn't
have to tell you is a whole different matter - I'm talking sold-out
houses). There were Prey, Ameling, de los Angeles, Souzay and Gedda
just off the top of my head. You are assuming it was because of Fi-Di
and Schwarzkopf that some singers (I really have no idea who you might
mean) didn't perform Lieder - I don't see how one necessarily follows
the other.   Wagner fan- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
Melchior also must have sung lieder........ years ago i had a Columbia
78 of him doing the famous Schubert serenade , I forgot the other
song........IMO musically he far surpased F-D in spite of a huge
voice.

AB
wkasimer
2012-05-18 17:46:05 UTC
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Post by wagnerfan
 Interesting - which singers would have gone into the Lieder repertory
had it not been for the baleful influence of Fischer-Dieskau and
Schwarzkopf???
I'm not sure whether or not Mark's comment applies to live recital
performances, but certainly DFD and Schwarzkopf cast a pretty long
shadow in the recording studio. I have a hard time thinking of many
singers between about 1950 and 1975 who recorded standard repertoire
German lieder for EMI or DG. There were a few - Gedda's Die Schoene
Muellerin for EMI, a few odd discs by Greindl and Borg for DG - but
the catalogue, especially for those two labels (which were still
"major" in those days), was really dominated by two singers.

Bill
Angelotti
2012-05-18 17:56:49 UTC
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Post by wkasimer
Post by wagnerfan
 Interesting - which singers would have gone into the Lieder repertory
had it not been for the baleful influence of Fischer-Dieskau and
Schwarzkopf???
I'm not sure whether or not Mark's comment applies to live recital
performances, but certainly DFD and Schwarzkopf cast a pretty long
shadow in the recording studio.  I have a hard time thinking of many
singers between about 1950 and 1975 who recorded standard repertoire
German lieder for EMI or DG.  There were a few - Gedda's Die Schoene
Muellerin for EMI, a few odd discs by Greindl and Borg for DG - but
the catalogue, especially for those two labels (which were still
"major" in those days), was really dominated by two singers.
Bill
Fritz Wunderlich, Rudolf Schock and Peter Schreier.
Hvdlinden
wkasimer
2012-05-18 19:17:27 UTC
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Post by Angelotti
Fritz Wunderlich,
Recorded a couple of LP's for DG - Dichterliebe, Schoene Muellerin,
and some odds and ends. Did not record a single Lied for EMI, as far
as I know.
Post by Angelotti
Rudolf Schock
Schock did record some Lieder - Strauss orchestral songs, Dichterliebe
- for EMI. Other recordings were for Eurodisc.

I think that both Wunderlich and Schock prove Mark's point, at least
to some degree - considering that both tenors were hugely popular in
German-speaking countries, one might think that they'd record far more
recital repertoire than they did.
Post by Angelotti
Peter Schreier.
Well, what else was singer that intelligent, with a voice that ugly
going to sing? It's tough to make a career singing Pfitzner's
Palestrina and a few odd character parts. I don't think that Mark is
talking about singers with limited vocal resources, who have always
gravitated toward Lieder.

Bill
wagnerfan
2012-05-18 19:44:10 UTC
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On Fri, 18 May 2012 12:17:27 -0700 (PDT), wkasimer
Post by wkasimer
I think that both Wunderlich and Schock prove Mark's point, at least
to some degree - considering that both tenors were hugely popular in
German-speaking countries, one might think that they'd record far more
recital repertoire than they did.
Not really - Wunderlich came to Lieder relatively late in his short
life - his early Lieder recordings e.g. the Schone Mullerin with
Stolze at the piano is just not very good - well sung of course but
perhaps he would have matured into an interesting Lieder singer.
Schock preferred to sing German popular songs (Volkslieder)- he has
many Lps and videos to attest to that. Of course neither of these were
the big voiced singers to whom Mark refers. I am not denying the
falling off of Liederrecitals in the 70s and 80s - the probably I
have is ascrbing that to the influence of two singers.

Wagner fan
Mark S
2012-05-18 19:51:45 UTC
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Post by wkasimer
Post by Angelotti
Fritz Wunderlich,
Recorded a couple of LP's for DG - Dichterliebe, Schoene Muellerin,
and some odds and ends.  Did not record a single Lied for EMI, as far
as I know.
Post by Angelotti
Rudolf Schock
Schock did record some Lieder - Strauss orchestral songs, Dichterliebe
- for EMI.  Other recordings were for Eurodisc.
I think that both Wunderlich and Schock prove Mark's point, at least
to some degree - considering that both tenors were hugely popular in
German-speaking countries, one might think that they'd record far more
recital repertoire than they did.
Exactly.

When it comes to voices as voices, I'd much rather listen to
Wunderrlich or Gedda or even Schock over Fi-Di. They all sang lieder
very well but recorded very little of it.

Let's face it, any singer pales in comparison when set against the
volume of lieder recorded by Fi-Di. He was a one-man show. So pointing
out that Gedda recorded Müllerin and a few Strauss songs while
Wunderlich recorded Dichterliebe & Müllerin is pointing out a ratio of
a thousand-to-one. I own a lot of Fi-Di's lider recordings: the DG
Schubert, Schumann & Wolf, the EMI Brahms etc. Wouldn't it have been
nice if more than one singer were involved in those projects? Wouldn't
it have been nice if DG's Complete Brahms Edition had more variety in
the singers than it does (IIRC, it's mainly DFD & J Norman doing the
honors). Wouldn't it be nice to have songs written in the tenor range
sung by a tenor, rather than transposed downward so that baritone DFD
could sing them?

We do get such a variety in the Hyperion editions, but here again,
we're not talking male singers who are the calibre of a Wunderlich or
Bjoerling.
Post by wkasimer
Post by Angelotti
Peter Schreier.
Well, what else was singer that intelligent, with a voice that ugly
going to sing?  It's tough to make a career singing Pfitzner's
Palestrina and a few odd character parts.  I don't think that Mark is
talking about singers with limited vocal resources, who have always
gravitated toward Lieder.
Well, I wasn't going to say it, but...
hiker_rs
2012-05-18 18:04:16 UTC
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Post by wkasimer
Post by wagnerfan
 Interesting - which singers would have gone into the Lieder repertory
had it not been for the baleful influence of Fischer-Dieskau and
Schwarzkopf???
I'm not sure whether or not Mark's comment applies to live recital
performances, but certainly DFD and Schwarzkopf cast a pretty long
shadow in the recording studio.  I have a hard time thinking of many
singers between about 1950 and 1975 who recorded standard repertoire
German lieder for EMI or DG.  There were a few - Gedda's Die Schoene
Muellerin for EMI, a few odd discs by Greindl and Borg for DG - but
the catalogue, especially for those two labels (which were still
"major" in those days), was really dominated by two singers.
Bill
Hermann Prey seemed to keep up with DFD (though on Phillips).

Rich
wagnerfan
2012-05-18 18:53:31 UTC
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On Fri, 18 May 2012 11:04:16 -0700 (PDT), hiker_rs
Post by hiker_rs
Post by wkasimer
Post by wagnerfan
 Interesting - which singers would have gone into the Lieder repertory
had it not been for the baleful influence of Fischer-Dieskau and
Schwarzkopf???
I'm not sure whether or not Mark's comment applies to live recital
performances, but certainly DFD and Schwarzkopf cast a pretty long
shadow in the recording studio.  I have a hard time thinking of many
singers between about 1950 and 1975 who recorded standard repertoire
German lieder for EMI or DG.  There were a few - Gedda's Die Schoene
Muellerin for EMI, a few odd discs by Greindl and Borg for DG - but
the catalogue, especially for those two labels (which were still
"major" in those days), was really dominated by two singers.
Bill
Hermann Prey seemed to keep up with DFD (though on Phillips).
Rich
Yes he did - and quite a few Lieder fans preferred him to Fi-Di esp
in Germany - the voice was a fuller, warmer one that ncely filled the
hall with a sincere, unaffected interpretive stance.
Wagner fan
Matthew B. Tepper
2012-05-18 20:02:47 UTC
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hiker_rs <***@sbcglobal.net> appears to have caused the following
letters to be typed in news:9213d1f0-4af4-4bb4-9863-5e429d8a2a96
Post by hiker_rs
Hermann Prey seemed to keep up with DFD (though on Phillips).
I'd love for there to be a reissue of Prey's first LP of orchestrated
versions of Schubert Lieder which appeared in the US on RCA. (There was a
second one, but while the first LP had orchestrations by Brahms, Berlioz,
Liszt and others, the second one was largely Max Reger.)
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!!
Read about "Proty" here: http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/proty.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
Opinions expressed here are not necessarily those of my employers.
Steve de Mena
2012-05-19 13:26:21 UTC
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Post by Matthew B. Tepper
letters to be typed in news:9213d1f0-4af4-4bb4-9863-5e429d8a2a96
Post by hiker_rs
Hermann Prey seemed to keep up with DFD (though on Phillips).
I'd love for there to be a reissue of Prey's first LP of orchestrated
versions of Schubert Lieder which appeared in the US on RCA. (There was a
second one, but while the first LP had orchestrations by Brahms, Berlioz,
Liszt and others, the second one was largely Max Reger.)
Was the second one released on CD? Thought I ran across one of them in
the last year. Might have been a ripped LP.

Steve
td
2012-05-18 20:20:56 UTC
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Post by Mark S
<http://www.spiegel.de/kultur/musik/dietrich-fischer-dieskau-gestorben...>
EM
While I mourn DFD's passing, I have mixed feelings about his singing.
His early work was exemplary, but he did become a barker/crooner as
his career progressed.
My point precisely.
Post by Mark S
I heard him live twice: an all-Schumann program at Severance Hall with
Barenboim at the piano, a recital that included 14 encores, and in the
Brahms Requiem at Carnegie with Detroit under Dorati. Both experiences
were wonderful. I was taken with the fact that his rather light voice
had great carrying power in the theater.
His opera recordings are a mixed bag, with the majority of them being
non-competitive with others, IMO. This is especially true of his
Italian rep which is horribly wrong-headed.
As far as his lieder recordings, I treasure a few of them, and I
respect his championing off-the-beaten track selections over the
length of his career. He has never been my go-to singer in the
standard German song, especially in the Schubert and Schumann cycles
which were written for the tenor range and which Fi-Di often
transposed lower, a practice which to me changes the nature of the
cycles, especially n the piano part.
More troubling to me is that  between Fi-Di and Schwarzkopf, the basic
approach to lieder singing was changed for the worse for a couple of
generations of singers. The crooning, barking, overly-arch "hidden
meaning behind every damn sixteenth note" style they embodied really
turned me off. Worse, it deprived us of the efforts of many great
singers who didn't bother with lieder because their heftier voices
were suddenly considered to be *non grata* in the lieder world, a
blander) voices continue to be favored overall.
All excellent points. Schwarzkopf became so precious that it turn the
art song into a study in prissiness. Neither she nor FiDi had the
natural, unforced, outpouring of vocal splendor that many other rivals
had.
Post by Mark S
In any case, he was an important and dedicated artist, musician AND
author. I would recommend his books on music over most of his
recordings.
So, you would sort of equate him with Charles Rosen? A better writer
than a musician?

You just doubled me, Mark.

TD
basnperson
2012-05-19 13:52:17 UTC
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Post by td
Post by Mark S
While I mourn DFD's passing, I have mixed feelings about his singing.
His early work was exemplary, but he did become a barker/crooner as
his career progressed.
My point precisely.
unfortunately, TD is correct (for a change) :-))) I never felt that
he would sustain a musical line even in his prime.......... for me
the voice lacks sensuality. When one listens to how Schiotz sang. then
we can hear a great musician who knew how to phrase with complete
conviction.

AB
wagnerfan
2012-05-19 13:59:03 UTC
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On Sat, 19 May 2012 06:52:17 -0700 (PDT), basnperson
Post by basnperson
Post by td
Post by Mark S
While I mourn DFD's passing, I have mixed feelings about his singing.
His early work was exemplary, but he did become a barker/crooner as
his career progressed.
My point precisely.
unfortunately, TD is correct (for a change) :-))) I never felt that
he would sustain a musical line even in his prime.......... for me
the voice lacks sensuality. When one listens to how Schiotz sang. then
we can hear a great musician who knew how to phrase with complete
conviction.
AB
if you never felt that Fi-Di could "sustain a musical line" (whatever
that means, legato, concentration, what????) even in his prime then
you either haven't heard him in his prime or we have different
defintions of the above. As for Leakin who says that Fi-Di huffs and
puffs his way through the the Wolfram aria, I would like to which
performance would demonstrate that effect. If he can't come up with
it (he won't) then once again he is talking about things about which
he knows little - what else is new???

Wagner fan
Robert Pecchioni
2012-05-18 20:22:42 UTC
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<http://www.spiegel.de/kultur/musik/dietrich-fischer-dieskau-gestorben...>
EM
His opera recordings are a mixed bag, with the majority of them being
non-competitive with others, IMO. This is especially true of his
Italian rep which is horribly wrong-headed.
That's probably a consensus view, but I may be the only one who likes his
Rigoletto. The characterization of anger and paranoia in his "Pari siamo"
are typically insightful. The instant change to tenderness as he greets his
daughter is perfect, and the "Veglia, o donna" has never been more sweetly
sung. The filial relationship is obviously central to the story, and that
alone makes the performance for me.

Can't think of another opera he stands out in, but that does not diminish a
great career of a great singer.
wagnerfan
2012-05-18 20:27:11 UTC
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On Fri, 18 May 2012 15:22:42 -0500, "Robert Pecchioni"
Post by Robert Pecchioni
<http://www.spiegel.de/kultur/musik/dietrich-fischer-dieskau-gestorben...>
EM
His opera recordings are a mixed bag, with the majority of them being
non-competitive with others, IMO. This is especially true of his
Italian rep which is horribly wrong-headed.
That's probably a consensus view, but I may be the only one who likes his
Rigoletto. The characterization of anger and paranoia in his "Pari siamo"
are typically insightful. The instant change to tenderness as he greets his
daughter is perfect, and the "Veglia, o donna" has never been more sweetly
sung. The filial relationship is obviously central to the story, and that
alone makes the performance for me.
Can't think of another opera he stands out in, but that does not diminish a
great career of a great singer.
As do I - the only part of his Rigoletto which falls a bit flat for
me is the aria where you really need a big fat voice but the rest is
wonderful - not at all overly cerebral as some of his operatic
assumptions can seem but naturally felt and expressed. He is also the
best Wolfram among modern singers I have heard - silken readings.
Wagner fan
Christopher Webber
2012-05-18 22:09:29 UTC
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Post by Robert Pecchioni
Post by Mark S
His opera recordings are a mixed bag, with the majority of them being
non-competitive with others, IMO. This is especially true of his
Italian rep which is horribly wrong-headed.
That's probably a consensus view, but I may be the only one who likes his
Rigoletto.
Consensus view or not, it's still arrant nonsense. You describe the
virtues of his Rigoletto very well, and the same virtues make his Luna,
Posa and Germont equally unmissable. He brings insight and focus to all
these roles, and his sense of musical line is almost always impeccable.
Of course some people will always think that intelligence and dramatic
imagination (as distinct from crude theatricality) are out of place in
Italian opera, so there'll be no convincing them...

I've found the snippy tone of this thread out of place, as must be all
too obvious. Personally, I'm very sad today to learn of the loss of a
person - and vocal personality - who's "always been around", and who
probably did more than any other 20th century baritone to further the
cause of the art we love.

I was listening a couple of days ago once again to a favourite disc: his
recordings (in English) of Beethoven's Scottish and Irish folksong
arrangements, with Alexander Young and Edith Mathis plus piano trio
(Decca Eloquence ex. DG) and found myself moved as ever by the detailed
attention and emotional depth he lent even to these "chips from the
workbench". Desert Island stuff...
wagnerfan
2012-05-18 22:15:10 UTC
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On Fri, 18 May 2012 23:09:29 +0100, Christopher Webber
Post by Christopher Webber
Post by Robert Pecchioni
Post by Mark S
His opera recordings are a mixed bag, with the majority of them being
non-competitive with others, IMO. This is especially true of his
Italian rep which is horribly wrong-headed.
That's probably a consensus view, but I may be the only one who likes his
Rigoletto.
Consensus view or not, it's still arrant nonsense. You describe the
virtues of his Rigoletto very well, and the same virtues make his Luna,
Posa and Germont equally unmissable. He brings insight and focus to all
these roles, and his sense of musical line is almost always impeccable.
Of course some people will always think that intelligence and dramatic
imagination (as distinct from crude theatricality) are out of place in
Italian opera, so there'll be no convincing them...
I've found the snippy tone of this thread out of place, as must be all
too obvious. Personally, I'm very sad today to learn of the loss of a
person - and vocal personality - who's "always been around", and who
probably did more than any other 20th century baritone to further the
cause of the art we love.
I was listening a couple of days ago once again to a favourite disc: his
recordings (in English) of Beethoven's Scottish and Irish folksong
arrangements, with Alexander Young and Edith Mathis plus piano trio
(Decca Eloquence ex. DG) and found myself moved as ever by the detailed
attention and emotional depth he lent even to these "chips from the
workbench". Desert Island stuff...
I am a fan of his Germont as well - he captures the changes in
Germonts attitudes during the scene with Violetta but most of all in
the aria he shows us the smugness and self-satisfaction of this man in
a way I recieved from no other singer. I won;t give up some great
vocalism from Lisitsian here as well as Warren and Merrill but they
don't give us what Fi-Di does. Wagner fan
Christopher Webber
2012-05-19 00:41:12 UTC
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Post by wagnerfan
I am a fan of his Germont as well - he captures the changes in
Germonts attitudes during the scene with Violetta but most of all in
the aria he shows us the smugness and self-satisfaction of this man in
a way I recieved from no other singer. I won;t give up some great
vocalism from Lisitsian here as well as Warren and Merrill but they
don't give us what Fi-Di does.
Well put again, re. F-D's Germont. Verdi's a broad church with room for
a range of vocal interpretations: but once heard, his take on these
characters is not to be forgotten - and he quite often challenged those
comfortable assumptions (of singers and listeners alike) that grew from
lazy following of time-hallowed "traditions".

I'm with you on Lisitsian too: I also find his 1948 Russian-language
"Boheme" (with Lemeshev and Maslennikova, c. Samosud) almost the
greatest ever recorded - far though that too may be from anything like
"traditional" interpretation.
Matthew B. Tepper
2012-05-19 02:02:17 UTC
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I am a fan of his Germont as well - he captures the changes in Germont's
attitudes during the scene with Violetta but most of all in the aria he
shows us the smugness and self-satisfaction of this man in a way I recieved
from no other singer. I won;t give up some great vocalism from Lisitsian
here as well as Warren and Merrill but they don't give us what Fi-Di does.
Wagner fan
I'm sorry, but in order to get DFD's Germont, I would have to endure
Lorengar's Violetta, something I am reluctant to do ever again.
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!!
Read about "Proty" here: http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/proty.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
Opinions expressed here are not necessarily those of my employers.
Mark S
2012-05-19 00:47:06 UTC
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DFD is also the
best Wolfram among modern singers I have heard - silken readings.
Have to disagree. The aforementioned Bernd Weikl sang the best Wolfram
I've ever heard at The Met. Pure gold. The sheer beauty and ease of
the sound almost made one cry.
td
2012-05-19 00:51:26 UTC
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Post by Mark S
DFD is also the
best Wolfram among modern singers I have heard - silken readings.
Have to disagree. The aforementioned Bernd Weikl sang the best Wolfram
I've ever heard at The Met. Pure gold. The sheer beauty and ease of
the sound almost made one cry.
That is one of the problems with FiDi. There is no EASE in the sound.
All huff and puff and forced.

TD
wagnerfan
2012-05-19 01:27:59 UTC
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On Fri, 18 May 2012 17:47:06 -0700 (PDT), Mark S
Post by Mark S
DFD is also the
best Wolfram among modern singers I have heard - silken readings.
Have to disagree. The aforementioned Bernd Weikl sang the best Wolfram
I've ever heard at The Met. Pure gold. The sheer beauty and ease of
Ythe sound almost made one cry.
Yes he was wonderful back then - if I remember correctly that was
the production that really gave Eva Marton a big boost to her career.
Wagner fan
Matthew B. Tepper
2012-05-19 02:02:17 UTC
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Post by Robert Pecchioni
Post by Mark S
His opera recordings are a mixed bag, with the majority of them being
non-competitive with others, IMO. This is especially true of his
Italian rep which is horribly wrong-headed.
That's probably a consensus view, but I may be the only one who likes
his Rigoletto. The characterization of anger and paranoia in his "Pari
siamo" are typically insightful. The instant change to tenderness as he
greets his daughter is perfect, and the "Veglia, o donna" has never been
more sweetly sung. The filial relationship is obviously central to the
story, and that alone makes the performance for me.
Can't think of another opera he stands out in, but that does not
diminish a great career of a great singer.
If you don't mind thinking of him as a specialist in non-standard rep,
there are those Hindemith and Busoni and Pfitzner recordings in which he
stands out. See this month's Fanfare for dueling reviews of a live,
abridged "Doktor Faust" conducted by Boult. The interesting thing seems to
be that the LPO, in the version they issued, is acting in one sense exactly
like a record label: They are lying.
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!!
Read about "Proty" here: http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/proty.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
Opinions expressed here are not necessarily those of my employers.
Robert Pecchioni
2012-05-19 04:01:31 UTC
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Post by Matthew B. Tepper
Post by Robert Pecchioni
Post by Mark S
His opera recordings are a mixed bag, with the majority of them being
non-competitive with others, IMO. This is especially true of his
Italian rep which is horribly wrong-headed.
That's probably a consensus view, but I may be the only one who likes
his Rigoletto. The characterization of anger and paranoia in his "Pari
siamo" are typically insightful. The instant change to tenderness as he
greets his daughter is perfect, and the "Veglia, o donna" has never been
more sweetly sung. The filial relationship is obviously central to the
story, and that alone makes the performance for me.
Can't think of another opera he stands out in, but that does not
diminish a great career of a great singer.
If you don't mind thinking of him as a specialist in non-standard rep,
there are those Hindemith and Busoni and Pfitzner recordings in which he
stands out.
If the Hindemith you refer to is Mathis der Maler, not even the greatest
vocalism could save that
overly long and wordy ordeal.

See this month's Fanfare for dueling reviews of a live,
Post by Matthew B. Tepper
abridged "Doktor Faust" conducted by Boult.
That might be worth a listen.
Christopher Webber
2012-05-19 07:56:37 UTC
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Post by Robert Pecchioni
If the Hindemith you refer to is Mathis der Maler, not even the greatest
vocalism could save that
overly long and wordy ordeal.
Have you actually followed the meaning of those words? If you do, you
may find that it's rather fuller of interest than you seem to think -
though I agree it's not a piece for canary fanciers.
Steve de Mena
2012-05-19 13:35:02 UTC
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Post by Matthew B. Tepper
If you don't mind thinking of him as a specialist in non-standard rep,
there are those Hindemith and Busoni and Pfitzner recordings in which he
stands out. See this month's Fanfare for dueling reviews of a live,
abridged "Doktor Faust" conducted by Boult. The interesting thing seems to
be that the LPO, in the version they issued, is acting in one sense exactly
like a record label: They are lying.
How are the LPO "lying"? It seems strange to me to make a statement
like that without explanation.

Steve
Bob Harper
2012-05-18 17:34:37 UTC
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<http://www.spiegel.de/kultur/musik/dietrich-fischer-dieskau-gestorben...>
EM
RIP. I am hopeful this milestone may convince someone to put together
a box set of all his recordings as conductor. Brahms 4, Harold in
Italy, Schumann Rhenish, DLvdE, what else? A number of different
labels, so it might prove impossible.

Bob Harper
Steve de Mena
2012-05-19 13:42:21 UTC
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Post by Bob Harper
<http://www.spiegel.de/kultur/musik/dietrich-fischer-dieskau-gestorben...>
EM
RIP. I am hopeful this milestone may convince someone to put together
a box set of all his recordings as conductor. Brahms 4, Harold in
Italy, Schumann Rhenish, DLvdE, what else?
Some more:

On EMI: a disk of Hugo Wolf orchestral works, Schubert Symphonies 5
and 8, Schumann Piano Concerto (with Daniel Barenboim).
Orfeo: Brahms Piano Concerto No.2 (Lifschitz), Symphony No.4 (all with
Konzerthausorchester Berlin); Haydn - Cello Concerto, Symphony No.104
(Camerata academica); Strauss Arias (w/Julia Varady); Wagner
Wesendonck Lieder (with Julia Varady)

Steve
Charles H. Sampson
2012-05-19 07:10:48 UTC
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Post by EM
<http://www.spiegel.de/kultur/musik/dietrich-fischer-dieskau-gestorben-a-
833828.html>
I feel a personal loss although I never knew him personally or even
saw him perform. I do have one DVD, thankfully. The idea of leider had
long interested me and when I finally got around to investigating it I
entered through the Fischer-Dieskau/Schubert door. I don't see how I
could have made a better choice.

At the time I was learning vocal technique from a teacher. F-D
became my second teacher. I learned so much about technique from
listening to him do the things my teacher was talking about. At the
same time, I learned about the art of singing, of phrasing and shading.
My teacher would get ticked off at me as I tried--unsuccessfully--to
spin a very long phrase, à la Fischer-Diskeau. "What are you doing?",
he would say. "Take a breath!"

I came to singing from instrumental background so I had an
instrumentalist's justfied bias against singers. Another joy of finding
FiDi. I remember a story. Some instrumentalist was talking about FiDi
and of the instrumentalists' prejudice against singers with their idea
that composers' notations were just suggestions. Then he said something
like, "Not with Deiter, though. With him you know that the notes are
going to be right where they are supposed to be [both temporarily and
pitch-wise]."

I think the instrumentalist was Menuhin. If any body has the whole
comment, please post it.

Charlie
--
Nobody in this country got rich on his own. You built a factory--good.
But you moved your goods on roads we all paid for. You hired workers we
all paid to educate. So keep a big hunk of the money from your factory.
But take a hunk and pay it forward. Elizabeth Warren (paraphrased)
MELMOTH
2012-05-19 14:01:19 UTC
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Ce cher mammifère du nom de EM nous susurrait, le vendredi 18/05/2012,
dans nos oreilles grandes ouvertes mais un peu sales tout de même, et
Post by EM
<http://www.spiegel.de/kultur/musik/dietrich-fischer-dieskau-gestorben-a-833828.html>
And, the same day : *France CLIDAT*...
--
Car avec beaucoup de science, il y a beaucoup de chagrin ; et celui qui
accroît sa science accroît sa douleur.
[Ecclésiaste, 1-18]
MELMOTH - souffrant
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