Joyce Hatto (!) plays Bax' "Toccata"

[Dufus]

Seems the "real" thing :

His 1st Piano Sonata, with Hatto, also there.

[Matthew B. Tepper]

Dufus <***@gmail.com> appears to have caused the following letters to
be typed in news:8e20f4de-7894-465b-ab67-8bcf52676800

Post by Dufus
http://youtu.be/xQ8NEssvgrE
His 1st Piano Sonata, with Hatto, also there.

Nah, probably Harriet Cohen.

[Christopher Howell]

Post by Matthew B. Tepper
be typed in news:8e20f4de-7894-465b-ab67-8bcf52676800

yes, it's real and it's a very messy, ham-fisted, un-rhythmical affair
that would have caused some puzzlement if it had resurfaced in the
days when some thought she was a great pianist

Chris Howell

[Christopher Webber]

Post by Christopher Howell
yes, it's real and it's a very messy, ham-fisted, un-rhythmical affair
that would have caused some puzzlement if it had resurfaced in the days
when some thought she was a great pianist

You put your finger on something here, Chris.

Barry wrote to MusicWeb about eight years ago, concerning Hatto's solo
Bax recording. He said, as I recall, that he wished to issue it on CD
but that Decca (?) had "lost the master tapes" and that he was looking
for a decent LP to work from.

I offered him my own private remastering made from a very high quality
commercial tape (owned by Graham Parlett), which sounds very good indeed
- certainly more than good enough for CD issue.

Barry decided that "for technical reasons" the Bax solo disc would have
to remain unissued until the master tape turned up. But the gulf between
this pianistic style and the "great pianist" of the fraudster years is
indeed demonstrable and may well have unsettled him.

Personally I think you're being a little hard on the Real Joyce here.
The four works on the Bax solo disc may be headlong, messy and
rhythmically imprecise in places. But they are certainly very exciting
too, especially in the 1st Sonata, and convey more of the Baxian "wild
romantic" spirit than many, more chastely secure renditions. The
composer would I think have liked them - his own performances of his
music were equally fast and furious.

(Hatto is much better surely than Eric Parkin's Old Maidish versions for
Chandos, equally on the edge of collapse but utterly bereft of Joyce's
"Seventh Veil" fire!)

[Dufus]

Post by Christopher Webber
(Hatto is much better surely than Eric Parkin's Old Maidish versions for
Chandos, equally on the edge of collapse but utterly bereft of Joyce's
"Seventh Veil" fire!)

I dont think you care much,either, for Ashley Wass in Bax solo piano
music ? Who would you reccomend other than Parkin,Wass ? Thanks.

[Christopher Webber]

Post by Dufus
I dont think you care much,either, for Ashley Wass in Bax solo piano
music ? Who would you reccomend other than Parkin,Wass ? Thanks.

(Extremely) briefly, I'd most certainly go for Michael Endres in the
complete Sonatas, which is all he's recorded; and Iris Loveridge - or
indeed Parkin, who's much better 'en miniature' - in the shorter piano
tone poems and vignettes. Something of that's true for Wass too.

The Loveridge set on Lyrita may sound antiquated, but as a yardstick
she's still a good one.

There are some individually worthwhile performances of various Sonatas
which I've not mentioned here, and Hatto in the 1st would for me be one
of them.

[Matthew B. Tepper]

Dufus <***@gmail.com> appears to have caused the following letters to
be typed in news:19f79d05-245e-4207-bbb2-

Post by Dufus

Post by Christopher Webber
(Hatto is much better surely than Eric Parkin's Old Maidish versions for
Chandos, equally on the edge of collapse but utterly bereft of Joyce's
"Seventh Veil" fire!)

I dont think you care much,either, for Ashley Wass in Bax solo piano
music ? Who would you reccomend other than Parkin,Wass ? Thanks.

How much of Bax' music *did* Harriet Cohen record, anyway?

[Christopher Webber]

Post by Matthew B. Tepper
How much of Bax' music *did* Harriet Cohen record, anyway?

Very little commercially. There are some other off-air bits and pieces.

-------------------------------
With orchestra:
1. "Morning Song" (beautifully) the short 1940's concertante work
dedicated to our present Queen;
2. Concertante for piano left hand and orchestra (off-air, not so good);
3. Muir Matheson arranged "Oliver Twist" suite (she did the complete
film's soundtrack too)
4. "Winter Legends" with the BBC Symphony Orchestra under Clarence
Raybould (poor off-air recording and hard to judge how she does it)

Solo piano:
"Burlesque", "A Hill Tune", "Lullaby", "Mediterranean", "A Mountain
Mood", "Pæan".

Chamber:
"Viola Sonata" (with William Primrose").
-----------------

It's possible to get a positive feeling about her playing from the
better recorded of these. The problem was not that, but her steadfast
refusal to let anyone else play the major works while she was active.

[Frank Berger]

Post by Christopher Webber

Post by Matthew B. Tepper
How much of Bax' music *did* Harriet Cohen record, anyway?

Very little commercially. There are some other off-air bits and pieces.

They were too busy with other (ahem) things for her to record his music.
She should have gotten busy when he passed in 1953. Seriously, I just
learned in Wikipedia that she was quite the character. Friends with Albert
Einstein, British Prime Minister Ramsey McDonald, Chaim Weizmann and
broadcaster Dorothy Thompson., She was active in the the plight of Jewish
and non-Jewish refugees from Nazi Europe and survived two assasination
attempts during a trip to Palestine.

[Christopher Webber]

Post by Frank Berger
They were too busy with other (ahem) things for her to record his music.

Actually Frank they weren't. He was up to (ahem) other things with
another mistress, Mary Gleave, from the 1930's - and when his wife died
Harriet (expecting to become Lady Bax II) was finally told about this.
Thus the unfortunate incident with the "tray of glasses" and Arnold's
need to write a Left-hand concerto for her. She had plenty of time to
further her career.

[Matthew B. Tepper]

Post by Christopher Webber

Post by Frank Berger
They were too busy with other (ahem) things for her to record his music.

Actually Frank they weren't. He was up to (ahem) other things with
another mistress, Mary Gleave, from the 1930's - and when his wife died
Harriet (expecting to become Lady Bax II) was finally told about this.
Thus the unfortunate incident with the "tray of glasses" and Arnold's
need to write a Left-hand concerto for her. She had plenty of time to
further her career.

Huh? Did she make a fist with her right hand and punch a hole in a wall?

[Christopher Webber]

Post by Matthew B. Tepper
Huh? Did she make a fist with her right hand and punch a hole in a wall?

No. The official story was that she accidentally cut open her right
wrist whilst dropping a tray of glasses. This version of events is
seriously open to question, but the effect is not: Harriet's right hand
was incapacitated for a considerable period.

The new Naxos "Winter Legends" (Ashley Wass, Bournemouth SO, James Judd)
is being released next month. Sad to say, the onlie begetter of Bax's
score is named "Hilary Cohen" on the back cover. Poor Harriet. Another
slight from history....

[Matthew B. Tepper]

Post by Christopher Webber

Post by Matthew B. Tepper
How much of Bax' music *did* Harriet Cohen record, anyway?

Very little commercially. There are some other off-air bits and pieces.
-------------------------------
1. "Morning Song" (beautifully) the short 1940's concertante work
dedicated to our present Queen;
2. Concertante for piano left hand and orchestra (off-air, not so good);
3. Muir Matheson arranged "Oliver Twist" suite (she did the complete
film's soundtrack too)
4. "Winter Legends" with the BBC Symphony Orchestra under Clarence
Raybould (poor off-air recording and hard to judge how she does it)
"Burlesque", "A Hill Tune", "Lullaby", "Mediterranean", "A Mountain
Mood", "Pæan".
"Viola Sonata" (with William Primrose").
-----------------

Thanks very much.

Post by Christopher Webber
It's possible to get a positive feeling about her playing from the
better recorded of these. The problem was not that, but her steadfast
refusal to let anyone else play the major works while she was active.

At least, unlike Paul Wittgenstein, she didn't suppress any of those works
completely. And she was actually a good pianist, not a succes d'estime.

[Christopher Webber]

Post by Matthew B. Tepper
At least, unlike Paul Wittgenstein, she didn't suppress any of those
works completely. And she was actually a good pianist, not a succes
d'estime.

Very true.

[Christopher Howell]

Post by Christopher Webber
Personally I think you're being a little hard on the Real Joyce here.
The four works on the Bax solo disc may be headlong, messy and
rhythmically imprecise in places. But they are certainly very exciting
too, especially in the 1st Sonata, and convey more of the Baxian "wild
romantic" spirit than many, more chastely secure renditions. The
composer would I think have liked them - his own performances of his
music were equally fast and furious.
(Hatto is much better surely than Eric Parkin's Old Maidish versions for
Chandos, equally on the edge of collapse but utterly bereft of Joyce's
"Seventh Veil" fire!)
--

Oddly enough I've never heard another performance of Sonata 1 but I do
have the score and I can't see that this sort of bashy excitement is
any compensation for counting out rests properly, tiering the texture
so the different strands come out instead of coagulating and properly
observing the dynamics. Of course all these things are merely academic
without conviction and passion as well but when the score is as badly
misrepresented as it is here the performance has to be written off.
The fact that Bax lovers have been ready to countenance (if only up to
a point) this sort of performance really stems from the fact that
British piano music has never been able to enjoy the sort of standard
of playing and interpretation we take for granted in French or Russian
music, or only in a few isolated cases.

Chris Howell

[Christopher Webber]

Post by Christopher Howell
Oddly enough I've never heard another performance of Sonata 1 but I do
have the score and I can't see that this sort of bashy excitement is
any compensation for counting out rests properly, tiering the texture
so the different strands come out instead of coagulating and properly
observing the dynamics.

For me, Bax is one of those composers about whom the bare score tells us
little. So I only partly agree with your next sentence....

Post by Christopher Howell
Of course all these things are merely academic without conviction and
passion as well but when the score is as badly misrepresented as it is
here the performance has to be written off.

In the concert hall, once off, without a score, I think Hatto's 1st
would have worked tremendously. I agree that repeated listening tends to
make the flaws more irritating. For me the Joseph Long performance
(completely the other end of the spectrum, almost Gouldian in its
desiccation) gets better for repetition, though equally partial an
interpretation of the written score.

Endres just does what's there, and does it superbly. His technique is
astounding. I love his Ravel set, too. Has to be heard, Chris!

Post by Christopher Howell
The fact that Bax lovers have been ready to countenance (if only up to
a point) this sort of performance really stems from the fact that
British piano music has never been able to enjoy the sort of standard
of playing and interpretation we take for granted in French or Russian
music, or only in a few isolated cases.

Apart from Bax and Ireland, who should both be mainstream repertoire, I
have to say that the neglect from the wider pianistic world is perhaps
understandable! Choosing my words carefully and naming no names, these
two are the only British 20th c. composers of significance whose output
of piano music is large enough, and consistent enough, to put them in
the top league. And that's where they belong.

Bax has been best served by the masterly German pianist, Michael Endres,
and the complete sonatas have also been nicely recorded by the French
pianist, Marie-Catherine Girod.

Ireland is yet to be so fortunate. I'd love to hear Andras Schiff in
Ireland, or Volodos in Bax. Dream on.....

[Christopher Webber]

Addendum:
Before somebody else points it out, once I gave more than a second's
thought to it, I recognised that Andras Schiff *is* British by adoption,
since 2001.

So somebody ought to be lobbying him to play Ireland, for patriotic
reasons!

[Christopher Howell]

Apart from Bax and Ireland, who should both be mainstream repertoire,  I
have to say that the neglect from the wider pianistic world is perhaps
understandable! Choosing my words carefully and naming no names, these
two are the only British 20th c. composers of significance whose output
of piano music is large enough, and consistent enough, to put them in
the top league. And that's where they belong.

Well, Bridge at his best (quite a lot of it, really) has a
concentration and bite which I personally prefer to Bax or Ireland.
That's a personal reaction but I think you might increase your
Panthéon of mainstream British 20th c piano composers to 3...
For the rest, yes, it is a question of major names who wrote little or
nothing for piano, lesser figures who wrote fine pieces here and there
plus a few composers with the power to become cult figures but who
don't quite grab the world at large. Choosing my words carefully and
naming no names...

Chris Howell

[Christopher Webber]

Post by Christopher Howell
Well, Bridge at his best (quite a lot of it, really) has a
concentration and bite which I personally prefer to Bax or Ireland.
That's a personal reaction but I think you might increase your Panthéon
of mainstream British 20th c piano composers to 3... For the rest, yes,
it is a question of major names who wrote little or nothing for piano,
lesser figures who wrote fine pieces here and there plus a few
composers with the power to become cult figures but who don't quite
grab the world at large. Choosing my words carefully and naming no names...

Chris, I'll let you have Bridge if you'll allow me Tippett! The five
sonatas make up a fine body of piano work, even if the later ones
haven't (yet) found much of an audience, or interest from players beyond
Paul Crossley.

[Christopher Howell]

Post by Christopher Webber
Chris, I'll let you have Bridge if you'll allow me Tippett! The five
sonatas make up a fine body of piano work, even if the later ones
haven't (yet) found much of an audience, or interest from players beyond
Paul Crossley.
--

I was thinking of pre-2nd World War composers, if we want to construct
a similar pair/triad/whatever for the post-war generation Tippett's
place looks unassailable. And the other(s)?

Chris Howell

[Dufus]

Post by Christopher Webber
Chris, I'll let you have Bridge if you'll allow me Tippett! The five
sonatas make up a fine body of piano work,

Tippett wrote 5 Sonatas ?! I have Ogdon in # 2 , I believe. Wonderful
work , as is Tippett's Piano Concerto. What recording(s) do you
reccomend for the Sonatas ? Thanks !

[Christopher Webber]

Post by Dufus
Tippett wrote 5 Sonatas ?! I have Ogdon in # 2 , I believe. Wonderful
work , as is Tippett's Piano Concerto. What recording(s) do you
reccomend for the Sonatas ? Thanks !

There are only two complete sets of Tippett's solo sonatas available, of
which the recent one with Steven Osborne is coupled with such a luminous
performance of the Concerto (Hyperion, BBC Scottish SO, Martyn Brabbins)
that it's a must-have.

The last two sonatas are late works, much longer and tougher than the
first three, but very rewarding. They were written for Paul Crossley,
whose own integrale of the cycle is still available (more cheaply than
the Osborne) on CRD. Crossley's playing is harder-edged than Osborne's,
holding the material together more forcibly but with less sense of
fantasy.

Both sets are good, but the wonderful performance of the Concerto (and
richer sound) rather swings the verdict towards Osborne's new one.

[Christopher Webber]

Post by Christopher Webber
Both sets are good, but the wonderful performance of the Concerto (and
richer sound) rather swings the verdict towards Osborne's new one.

I should have said that it also includes the Handel Fantasy for Piano
and Orchestra, another magical performance.